Stage Legality Speculations

[WritersBlah]

So...I'm not sure if this would go under the Stage Discussion forum or not, but it seemed more geared towards discussing potential new stages. I would personally like to discuss only stages that have already been confirmed through official announcements, and how likely they are to be used in the tournament scene. I'll go ahead and post all the currently confirmed Wii U stages, and will update this post accordingly as we get new confirmations. Note: if you wish to discuss the potential legality of the 3DS stages, please do so in this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-legality-speculations.353426/

Stage List
Battlefield

Speculated Legality Status: Starter
Reasoning: Do I really need to give one? It's arguably the most neutral stage in all of the Smash games to date; to argue any other status would be highly unorthodox.

Final Destination (and its variants)

Speculated Legality Status: Starter
Reasoning: Like Battlefield, it's been a starter stage in every Smash game to date. It does favor characters with a good ground game or campy projectiles, but most matchups here are usually pretty fair overall. The variations of Final Destination, as seen in the For Glory mode, seem to have a few non-aesthetic differences like size and blast zone areas, but we'll really need to see these in action before we can really give a definitive answer, though my guess is that they'll probably all be legal starters as well.

Boxing Ring

Speculated Legality Status: Banned/Counterpick
Reasoning: Here's an interesting stage. Judging by the gameplay footage we've seen thus far, it looks like it'll be a very large horizontal stage, so characters with strong vertical finishers seem like they'll have a bit of an advantage. The ropes bordering the main stage also have some interesting properties, giving characters who jump off of them a higher jump, though I'm not entirely sure how much this'll affect a match. It also appears to be a walkoff, so that may be something going against its tournament viability. Overall, there are quite a few elements at work here which may change the game up a bit too much. I'd personally like to advocate for giving it a trial run at the beginning of the tournament scene, but odds are in favor of this one getting a ban.

Mario Galaxy

Speculated Legality Status: Banned/Counterpick
Reasoning: A walkoff with wonky gravity physics? Seems like a pretty early ban to me. However, we don't know how exactly the gravity will play into matches, so there may be hope for this stage yet.

Skyloft

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick
Reasoning: Structurally, this stage seems nearly identical to Brawl's Delfino Plaza, a traditionally counterpicked stage. Depending on how the stage transformations play out, it could end up falling into starter or even banned categories, though both options seem a bit unlikely.

Pyrosphere

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: The layout of this stage seems pretty balanced, offering different height ranges with the three platform tiers and pretty large blastzones in both axes. It is pretty large however, so characters with a good ground game or full-screen projectiles might have an advantage here. What may throw this stage into banned territory however, is the much-talked about stage boss. We haven't seen any of the boss in action, so it could range from being an easily avoidable stage hazard to a game breaking menace. We'll need some more footage before we can say for sure. Also hoping the boss isn't Ridley.

Halberd

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: It's Halberd from Brawl. It was a counterpick there, it'll probably be a counterpick here. I heavily doubt any of the new characters will really cause the stage to play too much in their favor, so it's counterpick status seems pretty solidified. However, there have been some talks regarding potentially banning this stage in Brawl due to its hazards in the second half of the stage cycle, so if that ban goes through, it could potentially carry over into this game. Please stay posted for further developments.

Kalos Pokémon League

Speculated Legality Status: Starter/Counterpick
Reasoning: We don't know an awful lot about this stage, but if I had to guess, it looks like it's gonna be a transforming stage like the previous two Pokémon stages, but unlike Pokémon Stadium 2, the transformations we've seen look much less divisive in terms of fairness and consistency, matching or even surpassing the overall neutrality of Pokémon Stadium from Melee. All things considered, it looks like it's pretty safe tournament-wise.

Palutena's Temple

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: This looks like Smash 4's answer to Temple from Melee and New Pork City from Brawl. Heck, the name "Temple" is in the bloody title! Overly expansive, cavernous stages like these are usually among the first stages to be banned from tournaments, and I heavily doubt this one has anything going for it competitively.

Garden of Hope

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: This one looks like it's going to be pretty controversial throughout the community. Blast zones are present in all four directions, but it is pretty big, and some of the platforms look like they could promote some pretty bad camping. Then again, there's nothing particularly game-breaking here. I imagine this stage's legality will be heavily dependent on individual TOs' discretion. I'd personally have it as a legal counterpick, but some matches here may prove otherwise.

Town & City

Speculated Legality Status: Starter
Reasoning: Oh, look! It's a reverse Battlefield! Actually, not really. The side platforms on this stage will be moving horizontally, a la Smashville. Also, the City transformation removes the center platform. Depending on how it's removed, it could prove to either be harmless like in Fountain of Dreams or a potential (but dangerous) method if getting some vertical KOs during the transition. All things considered though, this looks like it's gonna be a pretty safe starter. The transformations don't seem very game-breaking, and any stage hazards being present seems extremely unlikely. Looks like a sure-fire starter in my book.

Wii Fit Studio

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: It's a large, flat, walkoff stage with a few moving platforms (not pictured above.) There's too much that can go wrong with any walkoff stage, and if camping on Bridge of Eldin was easy, this one's gonna be a nightmare.

Pilotwings

Speculated Legality Status: Starter/Counterpick
Reasoning: This is a relatively simple stage with a few minor tilting transformations akin to Lylat Cruise in Brawl. As a relatively simple stage that basically looks like Final Destination mixed with Lylat Cruise, it seems like it's probably gonna be a starter. There are some elements such as planes moving which interrupt grabs that may lean this stage more in the favor of counterpick status, but we'll honestly need some more footage before we can say for sure.

Windy Hill

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: I...I...I have no idea what to think about this one. I've heard it might have some gravity gimmick like Mario Galaxy, but it's not a walkoff. But it has rotating platforms in the top-right corner that lead off into the blast zone. And there's two rotating springs near the bottom. Against my better judgment, I'd say it'll probably end up getting banned, but I think it might be worth a try first.

Wily's Castle

Speculated Legality Status: Banned/Counterpick
Reasoning: In all blunt honesty, this stage looks like it'd be amazing to play on. There's some moving platforms that might encourage camping, but there's a hole in the zip line that causes it to temporarily flip downwards, a la Gutsman's stage. With these elements at hand, this could make for a very fun tournament stage that doesn't cater too heavily to any one type of character. However, there is the matter of the Yellow Devil...and this is the point that I feel will cause many TO's to ban it. Number one, it's a pretty large stage hazard, and number two, killing it gives a huge advantage to the player who landed the final blow, which can throw a competitive match out of balance. It makes me really sad, because this stage looks amazing otherwise, but I feel this one will probably end up getting banned, unless Yellow Devil proves to not have that large of an affect on the match.

Mushroom Kingdom U

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: Oh man, I hope those hazards aren't as bad as they look...speaking from a design perspective, this stage looks to be made with a medium-sized competitive stage layout in mind. Platform placement is good, and it doesn't look like it favors horizontal or vertical killers, and the platforms' spacing looks like they're just far apart enough that attacks like Marth's up Smash won't reach the platform above him. Honestly, at first, this seems like a shoe-in as a counterpick. What really worries me though, are two things. One, in the first transformation, we have Super Mario World blocks. They look solid, unless they function like how they do in Yoshi's Island (Pipes) from Melee, and even then, it could be a potential problem. Heck, they could do that whole shrink & enlarge shtick from SMW as well. And in the second transformation, we have that spiky enemy. Damage/knockback power is unknown, but judging by his size alone, he seems like a problem. And this is just my guess, but it looks like he'll be bouncing between the water jets. That alone could land a ban on the entire stage.

Coliseum

Speculated Legality Status: Banned/Counterpick
Reasoning: Is this a walkoff? It looks like it, so that's already got it teetering in the banned category...according to Sakurai's post, there's going to be some platforms that sporadically appear throughout the stage, so this is essentially a much larger Wii Fit Studio (though I'm sure the platform orientations won't be exactly the same.) Even so, that doesn't really change anything in the long run, so unless this stage ends up not being a walkoff as this camera angle suggests, then this is a definite ban.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Really interesting read! I enjoyed it.

I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the 3DS stages and the different Final Destination forms in more depth.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Yea, the 3ds stages seem like they'd all be banned. Might as well call the 3ds version the FD version at this point.

Doesn't Garden of hope have breakable platforms? like the bridge? Maybe that isn't confirmed. All the ones that are Counterpick/Banned will be banned eventually. Its just a matter of time.

 

[WritersBlah]

Really interesting read! I enjoyed it.

I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the 3DS stages and the different Final Destination forms in more depth.

The 3DS stages, I feel, need their own separate posts on the 3DS discussion board. I'll get to work on that forum in a few minutes.

As for the Final Destination variants, it's honestly a bit hard to tell at the moment. The images we have seem to indicate that the sizes will all be pretty similar, with the only major differences being that some platforms will have a "floating" status (like vanilla FD or BF) and will be played almost exactly like regular FD, and others will have a "tower" status (like Yoshi's Story from Melee) which will give wall jumping characters like Mario an advantage. Blast zones are another thing which can affect certain characters' proficiency, but we can't tell from the footage we have thus far how big or small they'll be for each variant.

 

[Empyrean]

I'm really eager know how the Pokemon League stage is going to work. Looks really nice and, more importantly, really neutral.

I also hope Pyrosphere gets no hazard, in whatever form it may be.

Only from the stages shown until now, it really looks like the Wii U version will have a pretty big legal stage-list.

 

[mimgrim]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz96eSYdFvc

/thread

On a more serious note. A couple of things I disagree with.

Boxing Ring

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: Here's an interesting stage. Judging by the gameplay footage we've seen thus far, it looks like it'll be a very large horizontal stage, so characters with strong vertical finishers seem like they'll have a bit of an advantage. The ropes bordering the main stage also have some interesting properties, giving characters who jump off of them a higher jump, though I'm not entirely sure how much this'll affect a match. It also appears to be a walkoff, so that may be something going against its tournament viability. Overall, I can see this stage being a counterpick at least for the tournament scene's first couple of months, and we'll decide how fair it is from there.

This stage is more likely to be banned. Pass the Boxing Ring it seems to be walk-offs. There is no focus of recovery. Which is a key aspect of Smash. Walk-offs as a result create what most consider to be bad gameplay with what they promote, camping near the blast zone.

Pyrosphere

Speculated Legality Status: Starter/Counterpick
Reasoning: The layout of this stage seems pretty balanced, offering different height ranges with the three platform tiers and pretty large blastzones in both axes. What may throw this stage into counterpick territory however, is the much-talked about stage boss. We haven't seen any of the boss in action, so it could range from being an easily avoidable stage hazard to a game breaking menace. We'll need some more footage before we can say for sure. Also hoping the boss isn't Ridley.

The stage is rather big to be a starter. Also judging by its FD model, lava will most likely be a hazard, Counterpick/banned would probably be more accurate.

Pilotwings

Speculated Legality Status: Starter
Reasoning: This is a relatively simple stage with a few minor tilting transformations akin to Lylat Cruise in Brawl. As a relatively simple stage that basically looks like Final Destination mixed with Lylat Cruise, it seems like it's probably gonna be a starter.

I would go starter/counterpick to be on the safe side. The way the red plane is built could potential promote camping possibly.

 

[WritersBlah]

In respose to mimgrim:

First off, thank you for actually challenging some of the stances I took. I was looking forward to some actual debate. So here I go.

Firstly, regarding Boxing Ring, I'm really not sure how effective camping near the blast zones of the stage will be as a strategy. Most players are savvy to the tactic, and I think most would be smart enough to not approach the obviously camping character. Only a few characters have projectiles that could reach the opponent in the boxing ring itself, thanks to the ropes + crouching or spot-dodging likely blocking most projectiles, so I think stalling might be an issue bigger than edge camping. I know I ranked on all the other walkoffs, but I think this one might have some potential. We really just need to see how the matches play out.

Regarding the Pyrosphere, I do admit it is pretty big to be considered a starter. I think I'll go and remedy that when I have the chance. I don't think there's really much aside from the stage boss that could drive it over to the banned category however. Brinstar has lava, it's mostly legal in Brawl (and used to be legal in Melee; I know ther's quite a few people trying to get it back as a counterpick again) and it's a much smaller stage, so if it's a hazard, it doesn't look like it'll be that hard to avoid; any players who land in it will most likely deserve it.

And as for Pilotwings, I don't think considering it as a counterpick is really necessary because number one, the red plane seems to only be on screen for a short period of the stage cycle, and number two, Lylat Cruise in Brawl offers similar (and more consistent) camping opportunities, yet it's universally recognized as a starter. I really don't see camping getting too out of hand on this stage.

 

[mimgrim]

Firstly, regarding Boxing Ring, I'm really not sure how effective camping near the blast zones of the stage will be as a strategy. Most players are savvy to the tactic, and I think most would be smart enough to not approach the obviously camping character. Only a few characters have projectiles that could reach the opponent in the boxing ring itself, thanks to the ropes + crouching or spot-dodging likely blocking most projectiles, so I think stalling might be an issue bigger than edge camping. I know I ranked on all the other walkoffs, but I think this one might have some potential. We really just need to see how the matches play out.

Eh. There is still the fact that it negates a huge part of what is important to Smash. And that is recovering. That is a very important aspect to the game and walk-offs just negate that, even if they don't promote camping. Edge guarding is an important tactic, yes even in Brawl, and it doesn't even exist in a stage such as this.

Regarding the Pyrosphere, I do admit it is pretty big to be considered a starter. I think I'll go and remedy that when I have the chance. I don't think there's really much aside from the stage boss that could drive it over to the banned category however. Brinstar has lava, it's mostly legal in Brawl (and used to be legal in Melee; I know ther's quite a few people trying to get it back as a counterpick again) and it's a much smaller stage, so if it's a hazard, it doesn't look like it'll be that hard to avoid; any players who land in it will most likely deserve it.

Brinstar is mostly banned in Brawl. But that's more due to MK being even more obnoxiously good on it, though it can be argued it polarizes other characters as well. But people still dislike the lava as well because of how it can save a character from dying, which is a legit concern cause if your opponent successfuly edge guarded you or you messed up you shouldn't get rewarded.

And as for Pilotwings, I don't think considering it as a counterpick is really necessary because number one, the red plane seems to only be on screen for a short period of the stage cycle, and number two, Lylat Cruise in Brawl offers similar (and more consistent) camping opportunities, yet it's universally recognized as a starter. I really don't see camping getting too out of hand on this stage.

It's mainly the bottom ledges of the red plane that I'm talking about. There is also the transition from the red plane to the yellow plane and how it interrupts grabs and stuff. It definitely has potential to be a starter, but there are possible little things that could make it counter pick instead.

 

[xpnc]

every single stage has an fd mode

you're aware of this right

 

[Empyrean]

I think that Garden of Hope could work for doubles. The stick wouldn't be as much of an issue as it would with singles. Not to mention infinites are most probably not as prevalent anymore. The only real problem there is with the stage is the bridge in the middle, in the case it is destructible.

every single stage has an fd mode

you're aware of this right

Interesting.

So what are you suggesting, that we don't bother with any other stage?

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

every single stage has an fd mode

you're aware of this right

FD isn't the only tournament-worthy stage. You're aware of this, right?

 

[mimgrim]

Also. You might want to make Halberd CP/Banned as a just in case as well. The stage was put into Project M, and had the claw removed as well, and the stage is mostly banned at PM tourneys from what I know. It's possible Smash 4 will do it as well.

 

[WritersBlah]

Well yeah...the Boxing Ring's layout pretty much negates any characters with good edgeguarding techniques since there's no pits. Still though, I think the stage could probably be used for characters who don't have a good edgeguarding game or don't have good recoveries (Little Mac immediately comes to mind), so it could help out characters who place lower on the tier list. Still though...stages like this, when they are legal, are almost always stage struck right off the bat by the opponent so that might end up constituting a ban. I still really want to give this stage a chance though.

I'd hardly consider getting hit by the lava as "being saved." Aside from the damage buildup, you are in a helpless state for a good second or two, more than enough time for an attentive player to successfully edgeguard, and seeing as Pyrosphere is bigger than Brinstar, this seems like it'll be even less of an issue. And that's another thing; Brinstar was banned specifically because it was pretty much an instant win for Meta Knight in Brawl and the space animals + Peach + Puff in Melee. Why have we still not come up with a system for character-specific stage bans? If a character is already recognized for being in, say, the first half of the tier list, and one stage gives one of those characters a totally unfair advantage, why not just autoban that character from that stage? Seems a bit wasteful to ban an entire stage from play for just a handful of characters. This is pretty much what the Melee community is doing, and now they only have six legal stages in tournament play, and some are talking about banning Pokemon Stadium. I doubt most of the community wants a repeat of that with a completely fresh game.

And as for Pilotwings...yeah, you do have a point there. I'd personally like to see more footage before I totally give it a possible counterpick status, but yeah, I see what you're getting at.

Really, Halberd is getting banned at PM tournaments even with the claw removed? Do you know why? And are you sure it isn't just because of PM's more Melee-esque gameplay style? Because though Smash 4 is faster than Brawl, it still leans more towards Brawl-style gameplay than Melee-style gameplay.

I think that Garden of Hope could work for doubles. The stick wouldn't be as much of an issue as it would with singles. Not to mention infinites are most probably not as prevalent anymore. The only real problem there is with the stage is the bridge in the middle, in the case it is destructible.

Yeah, if the bridge does end up being destructible, that'll probably send it over the edge and into the banned category. I don't know if anything ever confirmed that though. Does anybody have any sources? And I can definitely see this used for doubles play a lot.

every single stage has an fd mode

you're aware of this right

If you would've read my previous posts, then yes, you would be aware of the fact that I know every stage has a Final Destination mode. That doesn't mean other stages aren't competitively viable in their natural form. True, we could use the FD variants to play normally banned stages in tournaments, but I think the stage rosters in Smash games should have a good amount of variance, and I'm judging all the stages based on how competitively viable their natural state is. I think it's pretty much common knowledge that FD variants will all mostly be starter stages, unless things like size and blast zones change up the variants (which we do not know for sure yet.)

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Windy Hill looks pretty weird, but I can't see any reason it would be banned. At least not for the usual reason (no random hazards, no walk-off). It does look like it has a weird gravity effect, like the Mario Galaxy stage, but that's no reason to ban it just yet.

Garden of Hope looks fine, as well. Yeah, those platforms at the side could be a little campy, but not game-breakingly so. It would be awesome for doubles, though.

Regardless, all stages should be re-evaluated from scratch when Smash 4 launches, especially walk-offs.

 

[mimgrim]

Well yeah...the Boxing Ring's layout pretty much negates any characters with good edgeguarding techniques since there's no pits. Still though, I think the stage could probably be used for characters who don't have a good edgeguarding game or don't have good recoveries (Little Mac immediately comes to mind), so it could help out characters who place lower on the tier list. Still though...stages like this, when they are legal, are almost always stage struck right off the bat by the opponent so that might end up constituting a ban. I still really want to give this stage a chance though.

There's also the potential that it will rely on vertical kills too much and almost negate horizontal kills. Which is still not good. In the end, I feel that the stage will just alter the game too much.

I'd hardly consider getting hit by the lava as "being saved." Aside from the damage buildup, you are in a helpless state for a good second or two, more than enough time for an attentive player to successfully edgeguard, and seeing as Pyrosphere is bigger than Brinstar, this seems like it'll be even less of an issue. And that's another thing; Brinstar was banned specifically because it was pretty much an instant win for Meta Knight in Brawl and the space animals + Peach + Puff in Melee. Why have we still not come up with a system for character-specific stage bans? If a character is already recognized for being in, say, the first half of the tier list, and one stage gives one of those characters a totally unfair advantage, why not just autoban that character from that stage? Seems a bit wasteful to ban an entire stage from play for just a handful of characters. This is pretty much what the Melee community is doing, and now they only have six legal stages in tournament play, and some are talking about banning Pokemon Stadium. I doubt most of the community wants a repeat of that with a completely fresh game.

If you’re falling to your death and the lava comes. Bam you were saved. And now have the chance to turn it around, even if your opponent were to hit you again, because you can try to escape from him now. That is an actually legit reason it was banned along with its polarization. Counterpick seems more likely yes. But banned is also possible.

Really, Halberd is getting banned at PM tournaments even with the claw removed? Do you know why? And are you sure it isn't just because of PM's more Melee-esque gameplay style? Because though Smash 4 is faster than Brawl, it still leans more towards Brawl-style gameplay than Melee-style gameplay.

The main reason is Bcuz hazards and how the distract from the game. And there are plenty of Brawl players that want Halbred banned in Brawl. It’s quite possible that will transition into Smash 4 as well.

 

[WritersBlah]

Windy Hill looks pretty weird, but I can't see any reason it would be banned. At least not for the usual reason (no random hazards, no walk-off). It does look like it has a weird gravity effect, like the Mario Galaxy stage, but that's no reason to ban it just yet.

Garden of Hope looks fine, as well. Yeah, those platforms at the side could be a little campy, but not game-breakingly so. It would be awesome for doubles, though.

Actually, there are two main elements that make me unsure of Windy Hill's status. First is that rotating windmill that looks like it leads off into the blast zone. At a high enough percentage, it could be used to get some pretty easy kills. Also, Kirby and Dedede will probably have a huge advantage here, with their neutral B. Also, depending on how much those springs near the bottom rotate, it could make recovering harder or easier than it should be. Kinda reminds me of the barrels from the Kongo Jungle stages in Melee and Smash 64.

And about Garden of Hope, I was referring to the porcelain pot and stick when I mentioned platforms promoting bad camping. The ones off on the stage's edges don't really look they'll be too much of an issue in terms of camping. It may however, give an advantage to characters with high knockback throws.

 

[WritersBlah]

There's also the potential that it will rely on vertical kills too much and almost negate horizontal kills. Which is still not good. In the end, I feel that the stage will just alter the game too much.



If you’re falling to your death and the lava comes. Bam you were saved. And now have the chance to turn it around, even if your opponent were to hit you again, because you can try to escape from him now. That is an actually legit reason it was banned along with its polarization. Counterpick seems more likely yes. But banned is also possible.



The main reason is Bcuz hazards and how the distract from the game. And there are plenty of Brawl players that want Halbred banned in Brawl. It’s quite possible that will transition into Smash 4 as well.

Well, I honestly don't really have anything else to argue with those points. They seem pretty valid, so I'll go ahead and alter the original post with the new information.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just wanted to say that there's a bit more to the AC stage then what you mentioned. I believe the platforms move up and down, and the stage travels to the city and leaves the platforms behind and gets more when it gets there. The the two platforms in the city are lined up and move horizontally. For reference: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Town_and_City

 

[WritersBlah]

Just wanted to say that there's a bit more to the AC stage then what you mentioned. I believe the platforms move up and down, and the stage travels to the city and leaves the platforms behind and gets more when it gets there. The the two platforms in the city are lined up and move horizontally. For reference: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Town_and_City

Noted. Will be fixed in a second.

edit: And...fixed.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

yes it's a real shame about wily's castle. That stage looks to be super awesome fun otherwise. Hopefully stage bosses is a thing that can be turned off. Also it's too early to say but the elite four stage seems to scream stage boss to me of some sort.

 

[smashmachine]

Halberd better be kept legal

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Final Destination (and its variants)
Speculated Legality Status: Starter

Spoiler

Reasoning: Like Battlefield, it's been a starter stage in every Smash game to date. It does favor characters with a good ground game or campy projectiles, but most matchups here are usually pretty fair overall. The variations of Final Destination, as seen in the For Glory mode, seem to have a few non-aesthetic differences like size and blast zone areas, but we'll really need to see these in action before we can really give a definitive answer, though my guess is that they'll probably all be legal starters as well.

It'll probably never happen, but I'd like Final Destination to finally make it into the mainstream as a counterpick. It has counterpick properties as you outlined in it favoring ground and campy projectile characters. For the Wii U version we are already looking at at least three potential starter stages already.

Boxing Ring
Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Banned

Spoiler

Reasoning: Here's an interesting stage. Judging by the gameplay footage we've seen thus far, it looks like it'll be a very large horizontal stage, so characters with strong vertical finishers seem like they'll have a bit of an advantage. The ropes bordering the main stage also have some interesting properties, giving characters who jump off of them a higher jump, though I'm not entirely sure how much this'll affect a match. It also appears to be a walkoff, so that may be something going against its tournament viability. Overall, I can see this stage being a counterpick at least for the tournament scene's first couple of months, and we'll decide how fair it is from there.

I really, really would love to see Boxing Ring in competitive play, and I would say it'd be an amazingly interesting counterpick if it wasn't for the permanent wall-offs. By all precedent, this stage is already banned. Also, as far as I know the ropes haven't been shown to been horizontally, so it could lead to infinites we don't know about yet. I'd still like to see how the walk-off play is affected by the proximity of the arena.

Mario Galaxy
Speculated Legality Status: Banned/Counterpick

Spoiler

Reasoning: A walkoff with wonky gravity physics? Seems like a pretty early ban to me. However, we don't know how exactly the gravity will play into matches, so there may be hope for this stage yet.

Wii Fit Studio
Speculated Legality Status: Banned

Spoiler

Reasoning: It's a large, flat, walkoff stage with a few moving platforms (not pictured above.) There's too much that can go wrong with any walkoff stage, and if camping on Bridge of Eldin was easy, this one's gonna be a nightmare.

I think it's weird you put one Mario Galaxy up as a possible counterpick and the Wii Fit Studio as banned when by all means they are essentially the same: a breadth with walk-offs. I've seen some platforms in the Wii Fit stage but it doesn't change the fact there are permanent walk-offs. The only way I can see the gravity mechanic affecting the gameplay is that objects moving further out in orbit will cover a smaller arc than at the same velocity on ground in the same amount of time.

Pyrosphere
Speculated Legality Status: Starter/Counterpick

Spoiler

Reasoning: The layout of this stage seems pretty balanced, offering different height ranges with the three platform tiers and pretty large blastzones in both axes. What may throw this stage into counterpick territory however, is the much-talked about stage boss. We haven't seen any of the boss in action, so it could range from being an easily avoidable stage hazard to a game breaking menace. We'll need some more footage before we can say for sure. Also hoping the boss isn't Ridley.

Pyrosphere is not going to be a starter stage simply because of the boss. The fact it even has a hazard runs in the face of why use neutral stages as starters to begin with. Personally, it should be a counterpick anyway even if it didn't have a boss because its breadth is as wide as Final Destination if not a bit larger, favoring campy or agile projectile characters.

Kalos Pokémon League
Speculated Legality Status: Starter/Counterpick

Spoiler

Reasoning: We don't know an awful lot about this stage, but if I had to guess, it looks like it's gonna be a transforming stage like the previous two Pokémon stages, but unlike Pokémon Stadium 2, the transformations we've seen look much less divisive in terms of fairness and consistency, matching or even surpassing the overall neutrality of Pokémon Stadium from Melee. All things considered, it looks like it's pretty safe tournament-wise.

The angle of that photo makes the Kalos League look larger than it actually is. I still think it's too big and the platforms too high to be a starter, though. Plus, the stage is either variable or transformational. I'm sure there's something else to it that we haven't see yet too.

Garden of Hope
Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Banned

Spoiler

Reasoning: This one looks like it's going to be pretty controversial throughout the community. Blast zones are present in all four directions, but it is pretty big, and some of the platforms look like they could promote some pretty bad camping. Then again, there's nothing particularly game-breaking here. I imagine this stage's legality will be heavily dependent on individual TOs' discretion. I'd personally have it as a legal counterpick, but some matches here may prove otherwise.

From what I know about Garden of Hope, it seems like counterpick material in the same vein as Final Destination, with its own nuances. Some issues I think besides the camping would be the unique environment enabling some pretty creative stalling. I'll admit for Pyrosphere and this stage, I honestly don't know what tactical or strategic implications it's going to have. I wouldn't ban it unless it proves to be too conveniently degenerate as a counterpick.

Windy Hill
Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Banned

Spoiler

Reasoning: I...I...I have no idea what to think about this one. I've heard it might have some gravity gimmick like Mario Galaxy, but it's not a walkoff. But it has rotating platforms in the top-right corner that lead off into the blast zone. And there's two rotating springs near the bottom. Against my better judgment, I'd say it'll probably end up getting banned, but I think it might be worth a try first.

I know the Amazing Ampharos is never going to let me live this one day, but despite its modestly large size there's nothing too crazy going on in Windy Hill that seems like it's worth banning; It's basically a crazy Final Destination with some odd platforms and springs. It's pretty borderline though.

Firstly, regarding Boxing Ring, I'm really not sure how effective camping near the blast zones of the stage will be as a strategy. Most players are savvy to the tactic, and I think most would be smart enough to not approach the obviously camping character.

Often if you are down in stock, you do not have a choice.

Really, Halberd is getting banned at PM tournaments even with the claw removed? Do you know why? And are you sure it isn't just because of PM's more Melee-esque gameplay style? Because though Smash 4 is faster than Brawl, it still leans more towards Brawl-style gameplay than Melee-style gameplay.

I don't keep up with Project M, and talking out my ass, the stage is a counterpick but it's banned a lot in striking. With or without the hazards, the stage is transformational without any platforms and there also a lot of ways to abuse the main platform with characters that have multiple jumps and glide (sharking.) You still have to be careful because of the edge grab changes while sharking. There's also the fact that PM players are mostly Melee players, who already prefer their traditional stage structures.

 

[mimgrim]

Kalos League stage needs more info on it. I mean in the direct 2 different chambers were shown and it seemed like the same stage layout. However different hazards could be a possibility. Though I'm not sure how big the stage actually is, I don't think we ever got a real good zoomed out look at it. As for the platforms being to high, it will depend. I would, in all honesty, put the stage as unknown/not enough information to judge.

As for Windy Hill. The only big problem I see with it are the springs. Those could really be a pain. Otherwise the stage seems fine.

There's also the fact that PM players are mostly Melee players, who already prefer their traditional stage structures.

While there is some truth to this, the Melee community can be the only reason PS1 is still legal in PM, it isn't entirely true. As there are a few other stages that don't fit the traditonal structure and are allowed most of the time, Skyloft and Sky World to name 2. Like I said. The main reason it is banned mostly in PM is because of the hazards that are still in it, they only took out the Claw which was the worse offender. And that could transition into Smash4, perhaps even more so since the Claw will most likely be there again.

 

[WritersBlah]

I don't know if the Smash Backrooms will ever have enough guts to officially make Final Destination a permanent counterpick. I sort of agree with you, but it just seems a bit unlikely.

I'm pretty certain Mario Galaxy will end up getting banned what with its walkoffs, and I know this is really unlikely, but if the gravity gimmick makes camping near the blastzones a less viable option for whatever reason, it could make it a possible counterpick. Wii Fit Studio has no such gimmick, so that's my reasoning behind having it as a "sure-fire" banned stage.

I fixed the Pyrosphere prediction in the original post.

And regarding Kalos, ehh...it looks like it's about the size of the original Pokemon Stadium, both in terms of base platform size and its higher platforms, which is still a starter in Brawl (unless it's changed since the last time I checked the Unity Ruleset). The only think that I feel would take away its potential as a starter would be if any stage hazards are introduced (which a few people here are predicting. I'm just going with the official information we've gotten.)

 

[mimgrim]

Kalos Leauge platform look a lot higher then the ones in PS1 and PS2. But in general there isn't enough info on it. The stage has had barely anything showed ton it and isn't a past stage. But to be left as unknown imo.

 

[TimeSmash]

This topic is beautiful, as are the stages

I'd like to address the whole ten million FD forms of stages. Doesn't this potentially double the amount of stages to pick from? This is slightly off topic, but I think sooner rather than later we need to come up with an effective way to deal with them if they are similar. Most likely some FD forms will have different blast zones than others, but some could definitely share the same properties (or close enough, that the difference is negligible). Again, what I'm proposing probably deserves its own thread if it doesn't have one already, but I'd like to propose something like if Pokemon League and Town + City shared the same FD form properties (bear with me, they probably don't, but if they DID). Why not count the FD forms as one stage collectively?

I'm having so much trouble telling if some stages like Windy Hill Zone are big, or just regular size haha. That's my largest issue so far. The same goes with Garden of Hope

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Why not count the FD forms as one stage collectively?

Treating them all as separate stages can't happen, for practical and strategic reasons, so this is pretty much how we'll have to treat it. The thing is do we allow essentially two Final Destinations picks to exist or do we group everything with Final Destination, so that on the stage list it's "Final Destination + Variants? I'm leaning towards the latter. If Final Destination and its variants both up being starter and we can't ban starter, we have basically two Final Destinations on the set list and if a FD-favored main gets first pick he could potentially end up playing on a favorable stage twice.

 

[TimeSmash]

Treating them all as separate stages can't happen, for practical and strategic reasons, so this is pretty much how we'll have to treat it. The thing is do we allow essentially two Final Destinations picks to exist or do we group everything with Final Destination, so that on the stage list it's "Final Destination + Variants? I'm leaning towards the latter. If Final Destination and its variants both up being starter and we can't ban starter, we have basically two Final Destinations on the set list and if a FD-favored main gets first pick he could potentially end up playing on a favorable stage twice.

Should I just start a topic on it? It seems like there needs to be some organization as to how it'd go down. Not trying to distract from this great thread though!!

 

[WritersBlah]

Treating them all as separate stages can't happen, for practical and strategic reasons, so this is pretty much how we'll have to treat it. The thing is do we allow essentially two Final Destinations picks to exist or do we group everything with Final Destination, so that on the stage list it's "Final Destination + Variants? I'm leaning towards the latter. If Final Destination and its variants both up being starter and we can't ban starter, we have basically two Final Destinations on the set list and if a FD-favored main gets first pick he could potentially end up playing on a favorable stage twice.

That's pretty much my thoughts exactly. Darn Sakurai and his making competitive Smash rules more confusing to carry out. > But in all honesty, I feel like the differences between all the FD variants will end up being negligible. If not, I can see FD + variants being grouped as one pick (one ban) during stage striking. If FD is chosen, maybe a second round of striking for which variant...? I dunno, it sounds like too much work. Just ban all the variants, maybe.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't think FD will be, or should be, all that much of a hassle.

For starter stages just use default FD only. It makes it much easier.

For CP have all the variants, default included, fall as one stage for stage banning. But if the stage gets CP'd then ther person who CP'd it gets to pick their FD of choice.

Quite simple in all honesty.

BTW, hows the 3DS stage legality speculation coming along? I'd be willing to do that if you don't want to do it for the 3DS stage, and there a few particular stages I want to go into detail about that are on it.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i think the FDs won't be much problme. We need to see which will have troublesome lower parts like the one that was in Brawl (i am betting Mairo Galaxy will have something similar. i think it will make Stage Spiking too easy for characters that can afford going down there), we also need to consider the ones with walls.

Until we have a clear idea of how each works i think the best idea is just using the default one or picking one that looks fairer (Pyrosphere and Battlefield look good enough), i'm sure we might see a push for "for GLory" tournaments thanks to newcomers to the competitive fanbase who won't be very fond of platforms, so we could run tournaments on For Glory settings or just use input from that mode to see if there are any problem stages

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Should I just start a topic on it? It seems like there needs to be some organization as to how it'd go down. Not trying to distract from this great thread though!!

That is not necessary yet. We already discuss it elsewhere as well as in the more narrow thread here.

Until we have a clear idea of how each works i think the best idea is just using the default one or picking one that looks fairer (Pyrosphere and Battlefield look good enough), i'm sure we might see a push for "for GLory" tournaments thanks to newcomers to the competitive fanbase who won't be very fond of platforms, so we could run tournaments on For Glory settings or just use input from that mode to see if there are any problem stages

If we're only going to use one variant, everyone is going to have a preference and ideas for which one we should use to improve the health of the game. I don't think we'll reach a consensus on that.

Also, I don't see many "For Glory" tournaments even happening, and there's really no reason why almost all the newcomers would be against/wouldn't be fond of platforms.

 

[TimeSmash]

That is not necessary yet. We already discuss it elsewhere as the more narrow thread here.

Funny story... >.>

I also wonder if For Glory tournaments, or tournaments in general will become a thing online. If they do, that's very good or very bad on us, depending on how Nintendo reacts. After that whole Mario Kart 7 debacle it shows that with enough pressure, they will actually do something about online conditions for games

 

[LancerStaff]

Funny story... >.>

I also wonder if For Glory tournaments, or tournaments in general will become a thing online. If they do, that's very good or very bad on us, depending on how Nintendo reacts. After that whole Mario Kart 7 debacle it shows that with enough pressure, they will actually do something about online conditions for games

Aren't online Brawl tournaments somewhat a thing still? Really, it's Super Smash Bros. People are still playing Brawl's horrible Wi-Fi to the day.

 

[Empyrean]

Regarding Halberd, after Apex, more and more tournaments are going for a more liberal stage-list in PM, straying away from the Apex ruleset. Halberd is becoming a noticeably more popular counterpick along with some other stages. From what I've seen, the hazards have rarely done anything to disrupt the flow of match. I'd also like to point out that some people don't like it because of the possibility to recover from under the stage.

I don't expect the stage to be banned in Smash 4, unless the legal stage-list is really large and there is a hazardless stage with a similar layout to replace Halberd. Hopefully the power of the mechanical arm is toned down a lot.

 

[D-idara]

That's pretty much my thoughts exactly. Darn Sakurai and his making competitive Smash rules more confusing to carry out. > But in all honesty, I feel like the differences between all the FD variants will end up being negligible. If not, I can see FD + variants being grouped as one pick (one ban) during stage striking. If FD is chosen, maybe a second round of striking for which variant...? I dunno, it sounds like too much work. Just ban all the variants, maybe.

Yeah, who needs music or aesthetics?

If they ban Windy Hill without giving it a try, the competitive Smash community will show clearly that all they want is Battlefield clones.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yeah, who needs music or aesthetics?

If they ban Windy Hill without giving it a try, the competitive Smash community will show clearly that all they want is Battlefield clones.

He wasn't talking about music or aesthetics. You know that and I know that.

 

[D-idara]

He wasn't talking about music or aesthetics. You know that and I know that.

The thing's that banning all the FD variants would afffect music and aesthetics greatly, the sole reason Sakurai made the FD versions of stages was to let competitive players have actually-good music and actually-good aesthetics, wouldn't rejecting that effort be kinda insulting? I mean, yes, I know, different undersides do different things on certain specific occassions, but I still think that the influence feels minimal when you compare it to the premise of tournaments that aren't basically wireframes fighting againist another wireframes with hitboxes.

 

[WritersBlah]

Well, banning all the FD variants was really more of a short-term fix, tbh. It would be a huge shame to lose so much aesthetic variety simply because going through each and every one of them would be too much work. As mimgrim stated previously, I think the final solution might be to have vanilla Final Destination as a starter and have all the variants collectively be counted together as a "single" counterpick stage. That way, the person who chooses the variant gets certain elements slightly in his favor.

Also, just throwing it out there, but the 3DS version of this thread has just been created and can be accessed here: http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-legality-speculations.353426/ I'll put a link in the first post as well.

 

[RelaxAlax]

I say more of these Wii U stages have some promise for competitive play, and we should give more of them a try. Windy Hill doesn't look to disruptive, just those springs could be a bit wonky. But it could be an interesting counter pick for sure.

I'm still for Pilotwings. It looks good enough to be legal.

I'm hopefully for Garden of Hope (ba-dum-ch) but seriously, I think it could work. It may be picked over others because it has no platforms except the stick. Also, that wall may be an issue. And it's large, that's the only reason i see it be skimmed over. Totally okay to play on, just maybe there'd be better options.