Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

[jespoke]

Nairo mentioned that Umbra has a walkoff transformation, a platforms below transformation and some others that are fine. Most importantly though he said that the platforms going away at the top will not kill you

 

[Ajimi]

The 7 stages featured at Genesis 3 were becoming the defined standard for tournament play with players using the 2-3-1 format. With Umbra Clock Tower almost definitely becoming a legal addition, we have a dilemma. We are now totalling at 8 legal stages, which means we either need to go back to using the starter + counterpick format, or use either Delfino Plaza or Castle Siege as a 9th stage to allow for game 1 stage striking.

What are people's thoughts on the upcoming potential stage format.

I run 7 stages with 2-3-1 striking (2 bans no DSR), and I really wonder. I'd hate to go back to a starter/CP system. So we can either ban DH, group DL together with BF, or bring back another stage (CS, KJ64, Peach Castle, Wuhu…).

Edit : A walkoff on Umbra ? Seems weird to me.

 

[Tinkerer]

I run 7 stages with 2-3-1 striking (2 bans no DSR), and I really wonder. I'd hate to go back to a starter/CP system. So we can either ban DH, group DL together with BF, or bring back another stage (CS, KJ64, Peach Castle, Wuhu…).

Edit : A walkoff on Umbra ? Seems weird to me.

Best bet would probably be to bring back some other stage that people know, like Delfino Plaza or Castle Siege.

 

[LanceKing2200]

I run 7 stages with 2-3-1 striking (2 bans no DSR), and I really wonder. I'd hate to go back to a starter/CP system. So we can either ban DH, group DL together with BF, or bring back another stage (CS, KJ64, Peach Castle, Wuhu…).

For what it's worth, a preliminary poll shows that New England is in favor of axing Dreamland for CT, so we may try that in the coming months (assuming CT isn't broken in some way).

 

[S_B]

For what it's worth, a preliminary poll shows that New England is in favor of axing Dreamland for CT, so we may try that in the coming months (assuming CT isn't broken in some way).

Heh, I was at the MCG Saturday playing against a ZSS player. I banned BF and he CPed Dreamland, to which I said, "Ah, battlefield 2..." (went to last stock, last hit though. Pretty good for Bowser's worst matchup).

I'd fully support CT instead of DL for much the same reason banning FD also bans omega stages.

Sure, there are some ceiling height differences between BF and DL, but most (if not all) of the things people want to prevent their opponents from doing via the three stationary platforms work perfectly well on both stages.

 

[Tinkerer]

Dreamland is definitely distinct enough to be considered a different stage, unlike the Omegas (look at how all the "Battlefield clones" are treated in Melee, too), but if you're having a starter/counterpick ruleset you don't want people to be forced to strike both. It works well as a counterpick in that case.

 

[LanceKing2200]

Dreamland is definitely distinct enough to be considered a different stage, unlike the Omegas (look at how all the "Battlefield clones" are treated in Melee, too), but if you're having a starter/counterpick ruleset you don't want people to be forced to strike both. It works well as a counterpick in that case.

Dreamland, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story, and Battlefield are different for melee because they have significantly different blast zone sizes from each other. Additionally no one in melee has a "carry off the top" combo like ZSS/MK do in Smash 4. If ZSS or MK were in melee, and as a result the stage having a "top platform" was a big deal, the stage list would look very different.

 

[S_B]

Dreamland is definitely distinct enough to be considered a different stage, unlike the Omegas (look at how all the "Battlefield clones" are treated in Melee, too), but if you're having a starter/counterpick ruleset you don't want people to be forced to strike both. It works well as a counterpick in that case.

I know they have different overall dimensions, BF having a higher ceiling as well.

But my point is that if you're facing a character known for getting a lot of mileage off of platforms (usually to extend combos, often into kill confirms), you don't want to go to either one and it stinks to go to them for starters.

 

[Tinkerer]

Dreamland, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story, and Battlefield are different for melee because they have significantly different blast zone sizes from each other. Additionally no one in melee has a "carry off the top" combo like ZSS/MK do in Smash 4. If ZSS or MK were in melee, and as a result the stage having a "top platform" was a big deal, the stage list would look very different.

I just meant to say that seemingly minute differences in stages can make a world of difference - like how Dreamland's platforms require two jumps for some characters. There's actually quite a few characters that favour a Battlefield layout but with smaller blast zones, too, who like to go to Dreamland. Obviously, if you're somehow forced to combine stages in your list for whatever reason, Dreamland is still an obvious pick, but I think the treatment as a separate entity as most TOs do now works fine for it.

I know they have different overall dimensions, BF having a higher ceiling as well.

But my point is that if you're facing a character known for getting a lot of mileage off of platforms (usually to extend combos, often into kill confirms), you don't want to go to either one and it stinks to go to them for starters.

Yeah, exactly, that's why it works well as a counterpick rather than a starter. I think axing is just a bad idea, as it's a great stage and it's always better to strive for adding stages rather than subtracting ones.

 

[S_B]

Yeah, exactly, that's why it works well as a counterpick rather than a starter. I think axing is just a bad idea, as it's a great stage and it's always better to strive for adding stages rather than subtracting ones.

Yeah, I'm fine with it as a counterpick, but a starter is like "Well, they're gonna get that jank off no matter what, now aren't they?"

 

[lordvaati]

Wait...considering axing Dream land? for real?

with people questioning the edges of Battlefield proper n this game, I'd say that would not go over well.

 

[smashbro29]

I think if we show an interest we can get Umbra Clock Tower considered for EVO.

 

[Xeze]

Does Umbra Clock Tower have Smash exclusive remixes of Bayonetta music? If yes, that would solve the copyright issue I guess.

 

[S_B]

Wait...considering axing Dream land? for real?

No, only moving it to counterpick and replacing it with Clocktower.

Does Umbra Clock Tower have Smash exclusive remixes of Bayonetta music? If yes, that would solve the copyright issue I guess.

You can always just turn the music all the way down in the game options.

 

[Ghostbone]

You can always just turn the music all the way down in the game options.

Going out to the main menu and turning music off (then turning it on after the game) whenever people want to play on UCT seems a bit silly.

 

[ぱみゅ]

IMO, the solution is not to get rid of DL altogether, but merge it with BF and Miiverse, which would make a lot more sense.

Going out to the main menu and turning music off (then turning it on after the game) whenever people want to play on UCT seems a bit silly.

But, y'know, people still use the Music "Chance" Selector anyway so.... yeah....

 

[Ajimi]

IMO, the solution is not to get rid of DL altogether, but merge it with BF and Miiverse, which would make a lot more sense.

I agree, especially if people want to put it CP. The only difference between a "merged" DL and a CP-DL is that nobody will have to use two bans to get rid of a single layout.

 

[jespoke]

I think we should look into picking out one specific Omega with straight walls to put in alongside FD instead of just "Omega", so we can actually get it in nationals. I thought of it now because Corrin apparently can stab into walls to aid his lackluster recovery.

Potentially making the stagelist start with:
Final Destination/Omega Kalos Pokemon League (An example)
Battlefield/Dreamland

 

[paperchao]

I think we should look into picking out one specific Omega with straight walls to put in alongside FD instead of just "Omega", so we can actually get it in nationals. I thought of it now because Corrin apparently can stab into walls to aid his lackluster recovery.

Potentially making the stagelist start with:
Final Destination/Omega Kalos Pokemon League (An example)
Battlefield/Dreamland

I think it's best to just leave it as omega, as it gives more flexibility for counterpicking, as walls, grass, and maybe the ability to go from ledge to ledge (from under) could all be factors in different matchups

 

[ぱみゅ]

Oh, btw, this is the channel where the rest of the "unusual stages" tournament¿s games were uploaded:
https://www.youtube.com/user/GSBgames

Bad Commentary Warning tho

 

[Ulevo]

Merging Dreamland with Battlefield makes no sense at all. They are very different stages even if the negative implications of having them in a starter list overlap.

The viable options I see are to either bring back Delfino or Castle Siege, or go back to using five starters, either with Lylat or Umbra Clock Tower as the fifth choice.

 

[jespoke]

I think it's best to just leave it as omega, as it gives more flexibility for counterpicking, as walls, grass, and maybe the ability to go from ledge to ledge (from under) could all be factors in different matchups

It would be best if locals run all Omegas, but that is not an option for majors. That is why i propose setting it up in a way so we can at least get the most impactful Omega type onto the major stagelists.

 

[Ajimi]

The viable options I see are to either bring back Delfino or Castle Siege, or go back to using five starters, either with Lylat or Umbra Clock Tower as the fifth choice.

Why not 7 starters + 1 CP (likely DH or DL) ?

 

[19_]

I just felt like I got hit by a brick wall when I realized why Umbra probably won't end up being legal.

Who wants to guess?

 

[Tinkerer]

I just felt like I got hit by a brick wall when I realized why Umbra probably won't end up being legal.

Who wants to guess?

No-one, actually. What's your reason?

 

[Xeze]

Platforms under the main one?

 

[Seiniyta]

Platforms under the main one?

I feel it's a non issue for the most part because one it's temporarily and it doesn't put you in a great spot when it goes away

you can't harrass someoen from underneath it, you can stall a short amount of time maybe but then you have to recover to the main stage.

 

[Yikarur]

the only thing that really annoys me is the extreme-zoom-out. But I think this stage is completely fine.

 

[Mapet]

In a game where Delfino and Castle Siege are often legal, I think Umbra Clock Tower is adequately legal.

 

[Yikarur]

Umbra Clock tower is perfectly fine. It's basically the anti sheik/ZSS stage we always wished for. It would be unwise to not allow it.

 

[Xeze]

Umbra Clock tower is perfectly fine. It's basically the anti sheik/ZSS stage we always wished for. It would be unwise to not allow it.

So that's why ZeRo is saying UCT should not be legal. Now it makes sense.

 

[Seiniyta]

So after playing a few hours on the stage with a few friends and some people on Anther's ladder:

the platform under the stage is useless, I don't see anyone going there except for recovering and then moving back to the stage. Otherwise it has no real use. Camping it seems pointless. You can't hit them above which is the major thing.

The walkoffs platforms can be annoying, but since you can hit from below them you can try to approach. Still risky however.

The stage does seem rather huge, which is good against zss and sheik.

The floating solid platform can be hit through with DK's upair I've painfully discovered. So although you can't jump through it, some characters at least have hitboxes large enough to poke through it.


My biggest gripe with the stage is actually visual, it can be rather bright at times, and when the monster roars it's distracting for sure. But the lay-out seems fine. In areas that allow Delfino etc this should be a no brainer to be legal. Delfino is way more brutal with getting so close to the blast zone.

It seems to have it's use against the top tier characters. It does needs to be played in quite a few weeklies/tourneys to see if it produces too many boring parts during a match where they camp things out (like the walkoffs, the platform below the stage. Some characters could abuse it in ways I haven't thought about )

edit: Some numbers: in training mode against an npc mario (whlst using Mario) (0 di, no rage, no staling)

Mario get's KO'ed from the ground with a fully charged upsmash at 81% on Battlefield
Mario get's KO'ed from the ground with a fully charged upsmash at 81% on Umbra in the first bit and then becomes 82% onward (might be error on my part or blast zone shifts slightly up)


Mario side smash kill at 80 % in the middle of Battlefield against CPU mario
Mario Side smash kills also at 80 % in middle of Umbra.

 

[Starcutter]

So after playing a few hours on the stage with a few friends and some people on Anther's ladder:

the platform under the stage is useless, I don't see anyone going there except for recovering and then moving back to the stage. Otherwise it has no real use. Camping it seems pointless. You can't hit them above which is the major thing.

The walkoffs platforms can be annoying, but since you can hit from below them you can try to approach. Still risky however.

The stage does seem rather huge, which is good against zss and sheik.

The floating solid platform can be hit through with DK's upair I've painfully discovered. So although you can't jump through it, some characters at least have hitboxes large enough to poke through it.


My biggest gripe with the stage is actually visual, it can be rather bright at times, and when the monster roars it's distracting for sure. But the lay-out seems fine. In areas that allow Delfino etc this should be a no brainer to be legal. Delfino is way more brutal with getting so close to the blast zone.

It seems to have it's use against the top tier characters. It does needs to be played in quite a few weeklies/tourneys to see if it produces too many boring parts during a match where they camp things out (like the walkoffs, the platform below the stage. Some characters could abuse it in ways I haven't thought about )

This is good info.

I don't think the walkoffs will produce too much of a problem since it lasts for a far less amount of time than Castle Siege or Delfino Plaza. plus, as you said, it's a platform, so people can drop under it if they need to.

Also, the floating rock from right to left across the screen is by far the shortest transformation, so if it even is a problem (Which it isn't really) it doesn't last very long.

Either way, I plan on making it legal for my locals I help run. 5 starters and 3 CPs isn't that bad, right?

 

[Peppa]

I love the stage but it honestly just outright makes me feel noxious playing it, which is a disappointment. I can definitely see the legality of the stage but it just sucks to play on :/

 

[webbedspace]

Umbra Clock tower is perfectly fine. It's basically the anti sheik/ZSS stage we always wished for. It would be unwise to not allow it.

It's also the anti Meta Knight/Mario/Ryu/Fox/DK/Bowser/Mewtwo/Ness/Game & Watch/Zelda stage we always wished for. (Which is to say, a lot of characters prefer to kill vertically in this game.)

 

[Ulevo]

Yeah. I do not know what they were thinking when they thought the background visuals were okay. Size wise the stage always has Battlefield dimensions; ceiling height, blastzone width and stage length.

 

[lordvaati]

Yeah. I do not know what they were thinking when they thought the background visuals were okay. Size wise the stage always has Battlefield dimensions; ceiling height, blastzone width and stage length.

well, it IS Smash Bros, so there has to be dynamic elements repping the games somewhere.

after goofing off for a bit, I feel like the stage is a lovechild between Ferox, Prism Tower and Final Destination, and in the end is pretty much like when we wanted Magicant to be legal if it wsn't for The Homie messing things up.

overall I am 30% in favor as a starter and 65% in favor as a counterpick.

 

[jespoke]

Either way, I plan on making it legal for my locals I help run. 5 starters and 3 CPs isn't that bad, right?

As long as Battlefield and Dreamland are not both in the 5 there is nothing wrong with 5/3.

Speaking of, how are the banning rules for 7/1 and 5/3 past game one? No returning to the ones you won on and 2 bans? I guess, since even with 8 stages 3 bans could force someone with 2 wins in a set of 5 into a choice of Lylat, Umbra or Duck Hunt, which would get us major pushback from the conservatives

 

[Ajimi]

Speaking of, how are the banning rules for 7/1 and 5/3 past game one? No returning to the ones you won on and 2 bans? I guess, since even with 8 stages 3 bans could force someone with 2 wins in a set of 5 into a choice of Lylat, Umbra or Duck Hunt, which would get us major pushback from the conservatives

Right now I'm doing 7 stages FLSS (2-3-1 striking), and for post-first-game I give two bans without DSR.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Umbra Clock tower is perfectly fine. It's basically the anti sheik/ZSS stage we always wished for. It would be unwise to not allow it.

What? UCT is looking like the best sheik stage o.o

Anyway, biggest issue is walkoffs. That could make it not legal. At least definitely makes it not a starter anyway.