Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

[Kaiserkami]

I like Umbra. I'm mad that Midgar had to have that summon gimmick and have it be that disruptive to the match, but Umbra is nice too. The platforms don't bother me at all, its nice to have or its a bad thing to have like Fountain of Dreams platforms. some benefit from it some don't. However the walk offs, they're only temporary unlike the one in Castle Siege that lasts forever. Shoot Smashville has that platform that turns into a walk off when its far enough away.

Personally I'd like Umbra to be a counterpick stage. Maaaybe a starter when we start seeing it in action more, but definitely a counterpick I can get down with.

 

[lordvaati]

What? UCT is looking like the best sheik stage o.o

Anyway, biggest issue is walkoffs. That could make it not legal. At least definitely makes it not a starter anyway.

understandable, but then agian don't forget Halberd,(sometimes) Castle Siege and Prism Tower are legal stages as well even with walkoff parts(in fact this stage shares many things with Prism), so just because it has a part isn't exactly an automatic Death Sentence, even less so since these walkoff platforms allow approaches from below.

 

[19_]

Despite my last comment, I still think the stage deserves a chance AND IT'S ACTUALLY GETTING ONE. It honestly makes me very happy to hear testing be a word that is used again.

Also shoutouts to smashbro29 for finding THIS OUT.

Things are looking interesting.

 

[Starcutter]

As long as Battlefield and Dreamland are not both in the 5 there is nothing wrong with 5/3.

uhhhhhh...

Hey at least we're counting Battlefield and Miiverse as the same stage, right?


EDIT: So UCT is legal at EVO? This will be interesting.

 

[LanceKing2200]

For those of you looking for data on UCT, the next KTAR (Feb 13th) will have it legal (keitaro just announced on FB, Nario, Dabuz, False, etc.)

Additionally GUMS06 (New England Regional) will likely have it legal as well on Feb 27th (Marss, Pugwest, Koolaid, Lingling, etc.)

 

[19_]

EDIT: So UCT is legal at EVO? This will be interesting.

MAYBE depends how testing works out, so its still up in the air.
But its better than nintendo outright calling off (which turns out was not the biggest obstacle after all!).

 

[smashbro29]

Also shoutouts to smashbro29 for finding THIS OUT.

I didn't just find it out, I was the person he replied to.

 

[Xeze]

So, we're having a local tournament this weekend (unfortunately I won't be able to go) and Umbra Clock Tower is going to be part of the stagelist as a counterpick. Hopefully it gets chosen on stream so I can have footage of it in action.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

I'll let you all know when we're streaming tonight as usual. Umbra is a starter to somewhat retain seven stage FLSS, pushing Duck Hunt back to a counter for now. Hoping this gets played live.

 

[Cheap Shot]

So regarding 3DS legal stages, I am running a 3DS tournament this month and I wanted to see what you guys thought of my legal stages.

Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega Stages
Prism Tower
Arena Ferox
Yoshi’s Island
Reset Bomb Forest
Duck Hunt
Dreamland 64
Brinstar

It'll be FLSS with DSR and two bans during counterpicking phases. I wanted to include Umbra Clock Tower, but I don't think enough people will have it by the 18th.

 

[Routa]

Brinstar

FLSS

HAVE MY BABIES!!!

Anyways Wario is the only character that can abuse under the main stage plathform (well thous with chargeable projectiles can use it to get full charge easily). Also fight under the main stage is pretty much "See if you can tech". Also the background isn't as disturbing on the 3DS as on the Wii U one. Anyways it is pretty much just a bigger Prism Tower with more stuff. I personally like it a lot. In my opinion it should be a starter IF DL64 is starter too. But then again FLSS master race.

 

[lordvaati]

So regarding 3DS legal stages, I am running a 3DS tournament this month and I wanted to see what you guys thought of my legal stages.

Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega Stages
Prism Tower
Arena Ferox
Yoshi’s Island
Reset Bomb Forest
Duck Hunt
Dreamland 64
Brinstar

It'll be FLSS with DSR and two bans during counterpicking phases. I wanted to include Umbra Clock Tower, but I don't think enough people will have it by the 18th.

well it is 2 weeks from now and the stage comes with Bayo, so It wouldn't be that bad to try it out.

also Brofist for Reset Bomb, which I'm now gonna consider putting back on my own personal list.

On a side note, for those who are saying the dynamic background is an issue, 2 words:

Final Destination. this lovely has also had even WORSE complaint about the backgrounds, and even some arguments that it should be banned and replaced with one of it's Omega variants. if you say Umbra can't be legal because of BG, that applies to FD(and Lylat, for that matter) as well.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Ban Smashville because of the Animal Crossings characters in the background, they're disruptive and I can't focus when all these furry creatures are reacting to everything during a battle.

 

[wizrad]

Can FLSS even work with an even number of stages? What about odds that don't work well with 1-2…-1, like with an eleven stage list?

 

[Cheap Shot]

Can FLSS even work with an even number of stages? What about odds that don't work well with 1-2…-1, like with an eleven stage list?

...I suppose in theory that works. It just isn't optimal. I think 4x+1 numbers make it optimal.

 

[jespoke]

Scrap that, i misread it

 

[wizrad]

Well, there are some stages that shouldn't be banned, and that's where starter/counterpick is more useful. So a 13 stage list should work? Hm… I'm trying to think of my ideal ruleset (the list I posted earlier was played fast and super loose) and I don't know if there are enough stages to fill that out.

 

[Cheap Shot]

In my opinion, if a stage can be played at all, it's open to being the first stage played on. If a stage that normally benefits one sort of character is on the list and both players have characters who fit that role, they should be allowed to strike to that stage. That's where FLSS comes in.

 

[Tinkerer]

https://twitter.com/keitarotime/status/695272711078158336

KTAR XVII will have the Umbra stage as a counter pick.

 

[HenryXLII]

I know its early, but what's every one's opinion on this stage? Personally I think we should definitely give this stage a chance as a counter pick. The pros: The stage is constantly changing, in a relatively stable way may I add. And if we ban delfino, castle siege, and halberd for good that's something we will lack. But the main reason I really want to see this stage in competitive play is its high ceiling blast zone. I cannot confirm this, but it certainly seems this way from what I have played, and so many stages have low ceilings that top picks like ZSS and Rosalina thrive under. The cons: At one point a platform appears under the stage. I can see this being exploited for time stalls and it may be enough to break the stage. Another con is that people say this stage is distracting (though I think for the most part it's pretty tame besides when the large angel roars at you) Sorry for the messy formatting, I had to type this from my phone

 

[Xeze]

Gonna change the subject a bit here, but: Please No!

 

[epicnights]

Gonna change the subject a bit here, but: Please No!

This really seems to be a big issue in top player mindset. There are a few without this mindset such as Mew2king, but they're definitely an exception. It's quite disappointing, to be quite frank.

 

[lordvaati]

it's comments like those why I (and I guess Sakurai) feel people begging for the option to tun off stage hazards is redundant and pointless- with 50+ stages even if you had the option to turn off all hazards and even adjust sizes and stage positions, at the end of the day people would still only use 5-9 stages in a tournament, making all that adjustment work for naught.

Omega Mode was probably the best scenario we got, honestly.

 

[paperchao]

Gonna change the subject a bit here, but: Please No!

That ruleset was awful, why do they want it back?

 

[Radical Larry]

That ruleset was awful, why do they want it back?

Because they suck at adjusting to better, broader stages.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

That ruleset was awful, why do they want it back?

I've said it before, the top players and the fanbase are at odds. Top players desire stagnation, minimization of risk, new techs, and other things along that line, because they want to win. The fans want new stuff, new matchups, new stages, because it makes us hype. So while some top level players are willing to look at what can be done to expand the meta, most are pretty good with their wins, and don't want that to change with new things.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Okay.

I have no idea what these people are on if they think three stages is the future meta and is perfect. Why is there not louder outcries against this?

Also tonight came and went, and there was no problems shown with Umbra being legal. I got to see a lot of solid play off it, and it's just...a pretty darn good layout? The walkoff issues were non-existence since nobody ever once told you that you HAVE to approach someone camping off them, however brief. That is on the player, and there is definitely a strong sense of risk-reward when approaching from that close to the blast zone.

People need to take more college writing classes clearly when explaining why a stage is bad. I've had enough of the word jank lately and won't be having any of that anymore. I will stop listening to people when they open up their argument with "it's jank" or "dumb", without giving any further explanation on why.

But yeah, the stage was as fine as I expected, and anyone messaging me on Facebook saying otherwise better have some damn good reasons why it should be removed.

 

[Halifax?]

~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Ghostbone]

I've said it before, the top players and the fanbase are at odds. Top players desire stagnation, minimization of risk, new techs, and other things along that line, because they want to win. The fans want new stuff, new matchups, new stages, because it makes us hype. So while some top level players are willing to look at what can be done to expand the meta, most are pretty good with their wins, and don't want that to change with new things.

Man these conspiracy theories about how all top players want is meta stagnation so they can keep winning are hilarious.

Also after looking into UCT I really think it shouldn't be legal.

The main issue is that the timer for when platforms appear is inconsistent (can appear like 5-10 seconds earlier/later than expected), and the next round of platforms that appears is random. You can be hit off-stage and walk-offs can appear giving you a free recovery, or you can be spiked into a newly appearing platform below the stage, or you can be getting juggled and have the high platforms above the stage appear giving you a new landing option to escape pressure.

This wouldn't necessarily be an issue if it was predictable (based off the background like Lylat cruise) which platform layout appears next, but there isn't actually any of that, so the reward of your edgeguards, juggles, spikes, etc. is random, and inconsistent rewards like that get a stage banned. It's pretty similar to Brawl Pictochat which was an awful competitive stage, just not to the same degree of awfulness as that.

You can play on UCT and not really notice any issues, because most of the time the platforms aren't that impactful, but if it remains legal those situations will definitely crop up and people will complain.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Firstly, DREAMLAND IS ITS OWN STAGE. The layout is similar, but I never realized until running calcs how different the blastzones are to Battlefield/Miiverse. I would ban Dreamland before merging it with BF.

Secondly, can someone get me some blastzone data for UCT? I don't have a way to play right now, but I have all the numbers for G3's stagelist, I'd like to compare. I took 4 measurements for each stage:

Ceiling: % to kill Bowser with Mario utilt
Center: % to kill Bowser with Mario ftilt from the exact middle of the stage
Ledge: % to kill Bowser with Mario ftilt standing as close to the ledge as possible. It seems the stage shifts so if you could get 2 measurements for the narrowest and widest points.
Length: # of Toon Link backwards rolls across the stage (I know this is a poor measurement but it's what I took at the time). Eyeball to the first decimal place.

If someone could do that I'll post everything here and give some analysis/commentary.

I'm stuck in Charlotte because asking an airline to be on time, or even less than 3 hours late, is too much. So I can't verify anything about UCT firsthand until Friday night. But I heard its blast zones are identical to Battlefield's.

Also that 3 stage list legit angered me. WTF people.

 

[Schnizzle Fits]

I honestly couldn't find a real problem with the walk offs. Mostly because who in their right mind would want to stay near the blastzone. All those platforms could really be used for is recovery methods. And thats not foreign concept with Smashville's platform.

The main issue is that the timer for when platforms appear is inconsistent (can appear like 5-10 seconds earlier/later than expected), and the next round of platforms that appears is random.

Halberd was highly inconsistent as well. Sometimes Halberd took off right away other times it took 5 seconds. When the platform would land ( I mained Peach in Brawl and it has saved me alot) and when it would take off, as well as what weapons would be used. The stage had zero consistency. But was vital for some characters for MU's. But god forbid UCT does something different and other characters could shine on a stage other than top tiers because its harder to run away. The stage is small to the point camping under the stage would be useless and only save you 10 seconds and its right back to the main platform where your almost forced to engage.

 

[Routa]

But god forbid UCT does something different and other characters could shine on a stage other than top tiers...

This reminds me of the Brinstar drama in Melee. Brinstar used to be legal in Melee until they "found out" that it favours Jiggly and Ganondorf (yeah the lava wasn't good enough reason to ban it, but favouring mid tiers...). So it is banned nowdays. And the funny thing is that PS is kept legal even tho it favours space furries.

Favours other than top tiers = banned
Favours top tier = legal

 

[smashbro29]

Can we all agree that it should take a lot more than things flying in the back to make "distracting" a real complaint?

 

[teluoborg]

People are playing on omegas instead of FD for a reason, and the blinding flash is a lot less intruding than a giant monster screaming so hard that the screen shakes.

So regarding 3DS legal stages, I am running a 3DS tournament this month and I wanted to see what you guys thought of my legal stages.

Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega Stages
Prism Tower
Arena Ferox
Yoshi’s Island
Reset Bomb Forest
Duck Hunt
Dreamland 64
Brinstar

It'll be FLSS with DSR and two bans during counterpicking phases. I wanted to include Umbra Clock Tower, but I don't think enough people will have it by the 18th.

If you're going to give 3 bans in the CP phase why not let people FLSS instead ? It's like giving 4 bans and doesn't rely on a stupid rule.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I was playing this stage only for about 3 hours today, and after the first like 20 minutes, I was able to completely ignore the Angels.

 

[paperchao]

It might just be me, but I didn't even notice the angels at all when I was playing with a friend who had the stage, so idk how distracting it could be for others. Could be different for everyone tho.

 

[Ulevo]

I found the background distracting when I first tried it while simultaneously trying to learn Corrin and fight Bayonetta. Now I hardly notice.

 

[LanceKing2200]

Question for the thread. How many of us are actual TOs that control the stage lists for our regions as opposed to just passionate players who want a certain stage list?

Follow up to that, how many of you that are TOs have asked your region's top players what their opinions are regarding stage lists/striking options?

I'm the TO for Game Underground in New England, the home venue of Marss, Pugwest, Koolaid, Craftis, Raffi-X, Bloodcross (before he moved) and others.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Question for the thread. How many of us are actual TOs that control the stage lists for our regions as opposed to just passionate players who want a certain stage list?

Follow up to that, how many of you that are TOs have asked your region's top players what their opinions are regarding stage lists/striking options?

I'm the TO for Game Underground in New England, the home venue of Marss, Pugwest, Koolaid, Craftis, Raffi-X, Bloodcross (before he moved) and others.

Not a TO, but I'm sort-of-kind-of friends with a TO at the local university's Smash club. Unfortunately work has me traveling literally every week for the foreseeable future, so my current opportunities to actually sit down and have a conversation with him have diminished greatly. It also means I can't make their weeklies, which are on Thursday nights.

I have had brief discussions with him on the subject before, but nothing concrete.

 

[Xeze]

Also when people say Smashville is the best stage: