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~ Stage Counterpicking List ~

Gea

Gea

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Majority of the credit currently goes to DogySamich, who posted this in another topic. Additional edits and information provided by me. We are going to do this list right, giving careful consideration to every character, even if it is an easy matchup.

IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: For characters with more than one stage under each listing, all stages should be avoided. Obviously this is not possible. Use your best judgement and general comfort with each stage to choose what to ban and what to counterpick. However, keep in mind that some stages ARE more slanted than others on this list, such as Mute City over Dreamland 64 for Peach and Final Destination over Pokemon Stadium for the Ice Climbers.


Fox:
- Ban | Yoshi’s Story - Green Greens - Onett - Peach's Castle
- Counterpick | Final Destination - Brinstar - Mute City - Mushroom Kingdom II*

Falco:
- Ban | Fountain of Dreams - Final Destination
- Counterpick | Mute City - Corneria - Mushroom Kingdom II*

Marth:
- Ban | Yoshi’s Story
- Counterpick | Final Destination - Corneria - Jungle Japes

Peach
- Ban | Mute City - Dreamland 64
- Counterpick | Final Destination - Yoshi’s Story

Sheik
- Ban | Battlefield**
- Counterpick | Final Destination - Corneria

Captain Falcon***
- Ban | Final Destination - Pokefloats - Dreamland 64 - Rainbow Cruise
- Counterpick | Fountain of Dreams - Mute City

Samus****
- Ban | Mute City - Dreamland 64 - Pokemon Stadium
- Counterpick | Final Destination - Donkey Kong 64

Jigglypuff
- Ban | Mute City - Dreamland 64 - Donkey Kong 64
- Counterpick | Final Destination - Corneria - Yoshi’s Story

Doctor Mario
- Ban | Your worst stage that isn't a neutral.
- Counterpick | Your best obscure stage (Brinstar, Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise, Pokefloats, Green Greens, Donkey Kong 64, etc)

Ganondorf
- Ban | Yoshi’s Story
- Counterpick | Final Destination - Corneria

Mario
- Ban | Dreamland 64 (or your personal worst stage)
- Counterpick | Your best obscure stage (Brinstar, Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise, Pokefloats, Green Greens, Donkey Kong 64, etc)

Ice Climbers
- Ban | Final Destination - A lesser extent Pokemon Stadium
- Counterpick | Rainbow Cruise - Pokefloats - Jungle Japes

Luigi
- Ban | Dreamland 64 - Yoshi’s Story - Green Greens
- Counterpick | Pokefloats - Rainbow Cruise

Link
- Ban | Dreamland 64
- Counterpick |Donkey Kong 64

Roy
- Ban | Yoshi’s Story - Fountain of Dreams
- Counterpick | Final Destination - Pokemon Stadium

Donkey Kong
- Ban | Yoshi’s Story - Jungle Japes - Brinstar
- Counterpick | Final Destination - Corneria

Pikachu
- Ban | Battlefield - Yoshi’s Story
- Counterpick | Final Destination - Pokemon Stadium

Zelda
- Ban |
- Counterpick |

Ness
- Ban | Corneria - Green Greens
- Counterpick | Jungle Japes - Yoshi’s Story

Young Link
- Ban |
- Counterpick |

Yoshi
- Ban |
- Counterpick |

Kirby
- Ban | Donkey Kong 64 - Jungle Japes
- Counterpick |

Mr. Game and Watch
- Ban |
- Counterpick |

Bowser
- Ban | Yoshi’s Story - Jungle Japes
- Counterpick | Final Destination - Corneria

Mewtwo
- Ban | Dreamland 64 - Battlefield
- Counterpick | Yoshi’s Story - Jungle Japes

Pichu
- Ban | Corneria
- Counterpick | Final Destination - Pokemon Stadium

* Cyphus told me Mushroom Kingdom II works wonders vs Space. I know that it's a commonly good Doc stage; but I personally have terrible luck on there, so I've never counterpicked it. (Definately have to start since people keep banning Corneria on me )

** Almost all stages in this matchup don't give huge advantages to either. If you have a really uncomfortable stage besides Battlefield, ban it instead.

*** Many Falcon players counterpick to Pokefloats. If you know they do not, do not ban it.

**** Samus is a toughie to ban. You have to consider 3 things
- Does the samus edgeguard very well? If not, lean towards banning Mute City because they dont have to worry about edgeguarding you as much (Since up+b onto the platform is a baaad choice)
- Is the samus one that you know you'll knock around alot? If so, then lean towards banning Dreamland 64? Why? Samus may want to live longer than you (I say may because I played against Watty at Pound2, and he banned Dreamland 64 against me. Blew my mind)
- Is the samus missle heavy or extremely technical? If so, you may want to consider banning Pokemon Stadium so you dont have to contend with missle tricks. This ban doesnt outweight the other 2 by any means, but if you know your samus is notorious for Pokemon Stadium, dont be too afraid to ban it.

As for Bowser and DK, if you wonder why not to give them Yoshi’s Story, it's because that stage is about the same to them as it is to marth, including up.tilt platform ****. You always want to be careful of Jungle Japes since they can just fortress/spinning kong for days and stay invincible.
 
Gea

Gea

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On this note, are we including banned stages? Because MK II is banned usually, isn't it? For singles anyways. Maybe its kind of "to our discression?" Seeing as sometimes they aren't banned. Same with Peach's Castle, though I can't see me ever taking anyone there.
 
Dogysamich

Dogysamich

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Normally, in a match, you play best 2 outta 3, or 3 outta 5.

Forgetting everything else, we're talking about the stages for Doc (You) vs Somebody Else (The specifc character) -you can also look at this the other way if you're lurking looking for help vs doc-

But anyway.

At the beginning, each player gets to decide if they want to ban one stage. For this one set, you cannot go to this stage, no matter if it is randomed or picked.

The first match is on one of the random 6 stages.
Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium, Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story, or Kirby 64.

After the first match, the loser picks what stage he/she wants to go to, this is the counterpick stage. You generally want to pick a stage that will either

a) help your characters strengths (which doc doesnt really have alot to abuse)

or

b) hurt your opponent


There are some other theories that go into counterpicking; but those are the main two.

__

So what you're looking at is the end results of the Stage Discussion thread, where we are debating which stages work good for doc vs specific characters.

The big x factor that doesnt get put into this is if you or your opponent can play more than one character. This is just purely doc vs another character (If either can play more than one, then you'd have to account for those).

Since you say you havent been to a tournament, you probably dont need this if you only play with friends; unless you guys play sets.

However, if you plan on going to tournaments, some of the stuff is pretty useful to know. (i.e., no matter how good of a Doc stage it may be, DO NOT TAKE CAPTAIN FALCON TO FINAL D.)


 
Dogysamich

Dogysamich

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Cyphus

Cyphus

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he can FalcoN not Falco..and either way...laserspam isn't good against doc..but laser approaches are still deadly.

Falcon beats up Doc on FD...pills do nothing anyway. If u wanna beat falcon it has to be where u can edgeguard, where u can recover well, and where there isn't huge room for him to carry out his horizontally juggling combos. FoD works nice.
The platforms compliment doc's aerial game better than most other platforms levels since it lets you get in 2 spaced aerials before landing, plus they're at an ackward height for falcon since his full goes too high and SH usually not high enough to work at its fullest potential.. FoD ftw.
 
Dogysamich

Dogysamich

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Not a problem, mar.

As long as you understand it here, it'll make your first tourny a hell of alot less hectic.

My first real tourney was MLG Orlando.... Yeah imagine how that went, lol.

___

It's not too confusing.

You just have to understand this, for the most part.

First round, both of you guys pick characters, random stage.

Loser of round 1 picks a stage, winner picks his character, then loser.

and that just keeps going till the set is done.

See, that's not so bad. :-D

__________

Edit

Oh, i didnt see you asked another question.

Reason why you dont take Captain Falcon to Final D is because most falcons work off of tech chasing and running. If you give them alot of room, they'll just run circles around you; cause that's what Falcon does.

Sure, you'll be able to chaingrab him if you grab him, but it'll be hard enough to get ahold of him cause he'll just run away everytime you shield his aerials or something to that nature.


 
Marilink

Marilink

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All right. Heh, I'm enjoying learning so much I didn't know about this game after like 5 years of playing it.

Now my next mission is to look for SE Michigan Tourneys.
 
P

psykoplympton

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me and pitbull counter pick japes in doubles and we do really well. just to emphasise the greatness of that level
 
Velocity

Velocity

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Couple things bothering me

first Ice Cimbers you should ban battlefield, dreamland and Fod arent good either
and couterpicking should be yoshi story

ganon ban brinstar

samus your crazy if you ban dreamland or you dont know how to fight samus
counterpick that **** you should live longer then he does specially if you know the perfect edgeguard
 
Gea

Gea

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Velocity said:
Couple things bothering me

first Ice Cimbers you should ban battlefield, dreamland and Fod arent good either
and couterpicking should be yoshi story

ganon ban brinstar

samus your crazy if you ban dreamland or you dont know how to fight samus
counterpick that **** you should live longer then he does specially if you know the perfect edgeguard
Click to expand...
Care to expand at all? I mean... come on now.
 
K

Kashakunaki

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Take it to the discussion thread posted on the first page, second post.

Hmm. Yeah, I'll look and see who is the mod for this area and ask them about it... unless that is a Smashboards no no, I'm not sure.
 
Dogysamich

Dogysamich

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i just talked to alphazealot (who is actually one of the mods in here, go figure)

maybe we outta just close the other thread and leave all stage discussion in this one
 
Yomi-no-Kuni

Yomi-no-Kuni

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why is mute city counterpick against fox?

it is pretty small -> not too much room for CG and sometimes there are plattform in the way, ok, you DO have the cape, but in return Docs recovery is kinda ****ed up w/out ledges....

what would you think of Brinstar (lava combo, wierd edges, those funny little things that mess up L-cancel -> more shieldgrabs) as a counterpick against fox ?
(negativ: platforms against Chaingrab
Less edgeguard kills due to lava, and doc hasn´t got a lot of side killing moves but Fsmash and maybe fair (and DOWNSMASh!!!))
(isnt brinstar pretty high? wouldnt that be another plus?)
 
Gea

Gea

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Yomi-no-Kuni said:
why is mute city counterpick against fox?

it is pretty small -> not too much room for CG and sometimes there are plattform in the way, ok, you DO have the cape, but in return Docs recovery is kinda ****ed up w/out ledges....

what would you think of Brinstar (lava combo, wierd edges, those funny little things that mess up L-cancel -> more shieldgrabs) as a counterpick against fox ?
(negativ: platforms against Chaingrab
Less edgeguard kills due to lava, and doc hasn´t got a lot of side killing moves but Fsmash and maybe fair (and DOWNSMASh!!!))
(isnt brinstar pretty high? wouldnt that be another plus?)
Click to expand...
Actually yes, I forgot to change that. I took S-Royal's fox to Brinstar and won. Brinstar is an AWESOME counterpick against fastfallers. I agree 100%, though to be honest Mute isn't THAT bad of an idea for the same reasons as Brinstar.

Remember though, that even on Brinstar its nigh impossible to sweetspot so your recovery still is going to suffer.

Oh, and Cyphus aside, what do you guys think of MKII versus Fox anyways? He likes it but I don't see why.

As for Ness... Corneria is an obvious ban, but I personally felt like Japes would be a good counterpick. Thoughts?
 
Yomi-no-Kuni

Yomi-no-Kuni

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sadly enough, MKII is baned over here, so i dont play it -> no experience, and my experience against ness is close to non-existent

oh well, i just tried to type something for ness, but realized i´d just be guessing Oo

sry
 
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