D
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Their moves are unlocked by default and it's part of their design similar to Monado Arts, Little Mac's KO meter, and etc. I feel their customs should be allowed in tournaments.
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So why is it Palutena's customs and Mii's customs aren't allowed in tourneys?
Ansou
Smash Ace
Because TOs want to hold onto their principles and people still don't want to learn to handle moves that they are not used to. Logistics and unlocking isn't even the main reason that so many tourneys have custom moves banned. The main things that I have heard are:
- People seem to believe that the customs on meta is more campy/slower, even though Villager is not the only character on the roster.
- Some moves kill too early.
- People don't want to have to practise against more moves.
- "Jank"
Dinoman96
Smash Master
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In all fairness, the game literally allows for Mii Fighters to use their alternate specials even when customs are off. With Palutena, you have to turn the customs button ON to access her stuff, which many in the competitive scene are against. Mii Fighters can still use their gear even in a default setting, so I don't think it'd be unfair if they got to use all of their moves.
1FC0
Smash Lord
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It would not really be fair to have Palutena use her customs while some character are not allowed to use them. And saying that she is designed for her customs is stupid. Just because she is low tier does not mean that she is designed for her customs, she is probably not the only low tier that could use her customs well. And besides that when you turn customs off then Palutena's customs go off as well.
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Dinoman96
Smash Master
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I don't think it's stupid. And it's not because she's low tier without them.
Her trailer proudly presented her customs as her defining feature. Her customs are the only ones (beside the Mii Fighters) even mentioned in the game's loading tips. Then there's her trophy description:
No, I don't know why she can't pick her customs even when they're off like the Mii Fighters can. Just like I don't know why Little Mac's wireframe costume gets like 8 alternate palette swaps while Olimar's Alph costume and Wario's overalls attire only get four each, or why Event Mode doesn't have a reset button like the other game modes. Sakurai just ain't the most consistent guy. But regardless, it's still a bit ignorant to assume customization wasn't intended to be a big part of her character just because she doesn't work 100% like the Mii Fighters.
This isn't to say she's likely to get special treatment in tournaments, yes, but she definitely was designed with the game's customization features in mind, more so than the other regular characters at least.
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1FC0
Smash Lord
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Actually I think that the whole "what the devs intended" argument is stupid.
Here is why:
1. We do not always know what the devs intended for competitive play.
2. We should not care too much what the devs intended for competitive play. They do not always know what is best. Just compare SSBB with Project M and tell me who you think knows best what is suited for competitive play.
And since I think that it is unfair if Palutena gets to use her customs and other fighters do not I think that she should not be allowed to use her customs.
BV-Swifty
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I don't really mind customs that much. It can give us a lot more gameplay variety and the meta-game can become a lot more interesting that way. As long as people don't add any custom equipment, we'll be fine.
One more thing. It would be nice to let the DLC characters have customs to make them feel more welcome.
One more thing. It would be nice to let the DLC characters have customs to make them feel more welcome.
Dinoman96
Smash Master
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I already said why Palutena isn't likely to receive special treatment with customs. I'm just saying it's wrong to say she wasn't designed with customs in mind, because of the writing on the wall. Obviously just because Sakurai made her that way doesn't mean the competitive scene will comply, but that wasn't exactly my point to begin with.
With customs on? I don't think so. Superspeed, Lightweight, and Jump Glide give her tons of options she never had in default. Go watch videos of Aerolink's Palutena, who actually won a good handful of Shockwave weeklies with her, back when they allowed for usage of custom moves. He even beat Larry Lurr of all people with her.
Probably not top tier, but the utility of her customs ensure she's at least mid or possibly high tier. Some online people I know seem to think she's 'broken' with them on, so take that as you will.
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Dinoman96
Smash Master
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You're in a thread about custom moves, so I assumed you were talking about customs.
This is getting a bit off-topic but the lag in Palutena's grounded attacks don't seem quite as problematic thanks the utility of Jump Glide, Superspeed and of course Lightweight. In default, you'd be right about there being no point in using her, but with customs she becomes an interesting character with a high learning curve. All three of those specials I mentioned give her a significant amount of approach, combo, and recovery options. Lightweight in particular gives something Palu in default lacks: a reliable kill option, that being down throw -> up air which can kill at any reasonable percent. But at the cost of all of this, she doesn't have much of a ground game to work with. It's a flaw, but one that makes sense, because she'd be pretty broken otherwise. It's okay for characters to have significant strengths and weaknesses, and not some mindless S tier.
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LancerStaff
Smash Hero
Palutena's customs aren't separate from everybody else's, so letting her use them and not anybody else is like letting Villager use items and nobody else.
Miis on the other hand, don't require customs on to use their customs. It's debatable to even call them customs... And it's debatable to even use them, since they're customs characters themselves and aren't included in many things like All-Star and many challenges.
Miis on the other hand, don't require customs on to use their customs. It's debatable to even call them customs... And it's debatable to even use them, since they're customs characters themselves and aren't included in many things like All-Star and many challenges.
Raijinken
Smash Master
Because people are lame and don't like good things.
Really though, Palutena's is excusable because Customs Off prevents it. Miis are inexcusable, and you shouldn't support events that ban three characters for being unique.
Really though, Palutena's is excusable because Customs Off prevents it. Miis are inexcusable, and you shouldn't support events that ban three characters for being unique.
IndigoSSB
Back from the dead
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Regardless of the devs intentions it would be nice if they got their customs. With the way things are looking, unless Evo decides to go customs again next year customs are pretty much done as far as the meta goes. With the end of customs, it could be cool to have a custom oriented character in palutena.
At the very least the miis should get their customs, it's a crime to slap on their 1111 sets and call it their defaults.
At the very least the miis should get their customs, it's a crime to slap on their 1111 sets and call it their defaults.
Kurri ★
#PlayUNIST
This sure is a knee-slapper
Is it a crime when 1111 is really their default though?
Palutena's Custom Moves require Custom Fighters setting to be toggled ON and there has yet to be any sound reason why that game setting should be changed from OFF to ON. It really has nothing to do with what a trailer contained in a video to showcase customs or how anyone could speculate some kind of developer intention or if the Greek Gods smile upon us for bestowing her with more choices of Special Attacks.
It really comes down to a reason to turn that Custom Fighter ON.
Mii fighters by authority of the software are allowed to be created with any personalized Special Attack (as well as other options) without the use of Custom Fighters. There's absolutely no reason a competitive community would place an out-of-game ruling on the Mii fighters (Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner) - anyone proclaiming some kind of 1111 restriction must be used as a ruling for a tournament is a scrub unless they can provide a valid reason why this needs to be used for competition.
Should be easy to point out reality, I mean we do live in reality and not some kind of imaginary world (right?) so pointing at something real should be very simple.
I have yet to find this "default" thing in Smash Bros. for Wii U, could you point it out to me?
It really comes down to a reason to turn that Custom Fighter ON.
Mii fighters by authority of the software are allowed to be created with any personalized Special Attack (as well as other options) without the use of Custom Fighters. There's absolutely no reason a competitive community would place an out-of-game ruling on the Mii fighters (Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner) - anyone proclaiming some kind of 1111 restriction must be used as a ruling for a tournament is a scrub unless they can provide a valid reason why this needs to be used for competition.
Anyone making a claim of what is "really" default would have to demonstrate what this "default" thing is.
Should be easy to point out reality, I mean we do live in reality and not some kind of imaginary world (right?) so pointing at something real should be very simple.
I have yet to find this "default" thing in Smash Bros. for Wii U, could you point it out to me?
Kurri ★
#PlayUNIST
If you were to make a new Mii Fighter (Brawler, Sword Fighter, or Gunner) and didn't edit their move set, they'd be left with 1111, the default move set.
IndigoSSB
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It's not a crime either way.
This arguments old anyways, it always boils down to "Oh, well if you don't do **** to it the mii will have 1111 as their set" ------> vs <------- "Yeah, but miis can use all of their customs even when customs are off". Honestly, don't try to use technicalities in the game in arguments cause it works both ways.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
There's no default button for Miis though. In fact, their slot doesn't exist without a custom set. So either you make a custom set, 1111 is still a custom set, or don't make any at all and don't play them.
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Kurri ★
#PlayUNIST
I feel outright banning them might be a bit far. I'd rather they be unrestricted, but only along with all other customs, otherwise, keep them 1111.
Might as well ban them since they weren't designed that way and hardly anyone actually uses 1111 miis when allowed.
Kurri ★
#PlayUNIST
I don't see how lack of use would be a compelling reason to ban a character.
Sorry, I went to my Super Smash Bros. for Wii U software and attempted to do this but found literally no "default" as described. It is true that I can have a kind of unfinished Mii fighter left sitting in a character limbo waiting to be finished, but there was no "default" as if this were some kind of standard intended to be used for competition.
Not only are the definitions blurry, but even if this weak description were accepted it would still come down to the question of if the means truly justify the ends. What benefit does competition receive from this violation of competitive principles? Does it make the game better? Is it easier for the TO's?
The answer to those questions are resoundly "no". TOs don't want to be bothered making a bunch of "default" characters just so nobody will use them because they are so terribly garbage in competition.
Raijinken
Smash Master
Miis are entirely distinct from Custom Sets, though. Their menus and interface are almost wholly different, they're accessed in a separate part of the menus.
Extrapolation of data can lead to an accepted "default." In this case, when compared to "custom", every character, even DLC characters, have a list of Special Moves, and setting all of these to 1 is identical to playing the character in a Customs Off environment, bar Miis. As Guest Miis are the only enforcable constant on all Wii U systems that does not require out-of-game adjustment, that has to be held as default.
I'm for Miis having full customizability, because opposing the game to limit them to 1111 amounts to adding three joke characters, based on all current knowledge and perception of their strengths in such a loadout. But I do believe it's possible, and reasonable, to accept 1111 Size-Built-Onto-Console as default, since it is quite literally the default for the current 52 other characters in the game.
Required menus to bring such characters into existence are irrelevant. We do not ban Smashville because it requires single player items-on content clearing to unlock.
At any rate, the best (by which I mean most valid to my perception) excuse I've heard is that they're Create-A-Characters, which are rarely if ever allowed in other fighting games. To which I counter that they're a first for Smash, are not wholly cloned from any other single character (and in several cases are wholly unique), and we don't base our rules off of other fighting games without justification.
Extrapolation of data can lead to an accepted "default." In this case, when compared to "custom", every character, even DLC characters, have a list of Special Moves, and setting all of these to 1 is identical to playing the character in a Customs Off environment, bar Miis. As Guest Miis are the only enforcable constant on all Wii U systems that does not require out-of-game adjustment, that has to be held as default.
I'm for Miis having full customizability, because opposing the game to limit them to 1111 amounts to adding three joke characters, based on all current knowledge and perception of their strengths in such a loadout. But I do believe it's possible, and reasonable, to accept 1111 Size-Built-Onto-Console as default, since it is quite literally the default for the current 52 other characters in the game.
Required menus to bring such characters into existence are irrelevant. We do not ban Smashville because it requires single player items-on content clearing to unlock.
At any rate, the best (by which I mean most valid to my perception) excuse I've heard is that they're Create-A-Characters, which are rarely if ever allowed in other fighting games. To which I counter that they're a first for Smash, are not wholly cloned from any other single character (and in several cases are wholly unique), and we don't base our rules off of other fighting games without justification.
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AmericanSaikyo
Smash Rookie
I can sorta see why Palutena's aren't legal but the Mii characters are supposed to be a collection of characters represented by their various custom combinations.
Pegasus Knight
Smash Ace
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Palutena and the Miis are effectively separate topics.
Palutena's customs aren't allowed because the game itself enforces this. Customs Off results in a 1111 Palutena, and she has a coherent gameplan when played in 1111. I say this as someone who plays her as a secondary character; I will happily trot out her 1111 form to handle certain matchups my primary characters don't do so well against. She is better than people think, with an excellent dash attack, almost nothing but good aerials, and a good jab that leads to grabs or even to kill moves in some unusual cases.
The Miis should be allowed because the game itself enforces this. Customs Off results in the Mii having whatever size, move list, and costume you assigned to it. Please note their Equipment is disabled, however. Sakurai thought this one through and they behave a specific, intended way; this is no series of oversights on his part. The Miis do not have true defaults; they are build-a-characters who just so happen to have a series of 'first choices on the list.' This is just like how the menu at a diner has a first choice, but you are free to look a little further down the menu and pick the thing you truly want.
The Miis don't even make sense on 1111. Brawler can't recover and has no plausible kill moves this way. I don't mean "Brawler 1111 is low tier", I mean his gameplan doesn't make sense. I cannot tell you how 1111 Brawler is supposed to realistically win. I can do that for Zelda, Mega Man, Palutena, and so on even in their 1111 forms. Likewise 1111 Swordfighter is kind of senseless; he over-focuses on close combat to the point that he's kind of infringing on Brawler's gimmick, which is weird since the majority of his moves are built around the idea of making him a well-rounded sort... a bit more responsive and less clumsy Link, in many ways. Gunner I admit kind of makes sense if played 1111, but when 2 out of 3 leave you going "Huh? Character has no obvious gameplan", there's a problem and it means they weren't designed around the idea of having 'default moves.'
The Miis ought to be allowed in tournaments, with free move selection. They are designed to work this way, and Evo 2015 proves they don't hurt the game even in this optimized/unrestricted form.
Palutena's customs aren't allowed because the game itself enforces this. Customs Off results in a 1111 Palutena, and she has a coherent gameplan when played in 1111. I say this as someone who plays her as a secondary character; I will happily trot out her 1111 form to handle certain matchups my primary characters don't do so well against. She is better than people think, with an excellent dash attack, almost nothing but good aerials, and a good jab that leads to grabs or even to kill moves in some unusual cases.
The Miis should be allowed because the game itself enforces this. Customs Off results in the Mii having whatever size, move list, and costume you assigned to it. Please note their Equipment is disabled, however. Sakurai thought this one through and they behave a specific, intended way; this is no series of oversights on his part. The Miis do not have true defaults; they are build-a-characters who just so happen to have a series of 'first choices on the list.' This is just like how the menu at a diner has a first choice, but you are free to look a little further down the menu and pick the thing you truly want.
The Miis don't even make sense on 1111. Brawler can't recover and has no plausible kill moves this way. I don't mean "Brawler 1111 is low tier", I mean his gameplan doesn't make sense. I cannot tell you how 1111 Brawler is supposed to realistically win. I can do that for Zelda, Mega Man, Palutena, and so on even in their 1111 forms. Likewise 1111 Swordfighter is kind of senseless; he over-focuses on close combat to the point that he's kind of infringing on Brawler's gimmick, which is weird since the majority of his moves are built around the idea of making him a well-rounded sort... a bit more responsive and less clumsy Link, in many ways. Gunner I admit kind of makes sense if played 1111, but when 2 out of 3 leave you going "Huh? Character has no obvious gameplan", there's a problem and it means they weren't designed around the idea of having 'default moves.'
The Miis ought to be allowed in tournaments, with free move selection. They are designed to work this way, and Evo 2015 proves they don't hurt the game even in this optimized/unrestricted form.
Nah
Smash Champion
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Customs Off means no customs, period. Palutena's custom moves are not an exception just because they're unlocked from the start. Mii Fighters are custom characters. Besides, I think it's a little unfair to allow 4 characters the ability to tailor their movesets to specific matchups and not the other 50 characters in the game. Yes counterpick characters are a thing but that requires someone to learn a whole 'nother character. Changing a move or two doesn't require anywhere near the same amount of time and effort.
Unknownkid
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Pegasus Knight
Smash Ace
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I think it's a little unfair that sheik has an invincible projectile teleport. And a little unfair that Mega Man has multiple projectiles he can shoot in multiple directions while moving. It's definitely a little unfair that Rosalina has a KO-capable puppet when nobody else does, and that ZSS has spike combos that can kill you as early as 30% or less. It's a little unfair that Mac has armor on his smashes.
Perhaps the first thing we should ask of our characters is that they be a little unfair. It appears to make things interesting.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
You don't throw out the whole bushel over a few bad apples.
Most of that stuff isn't even unfair, at least not by itself.
Pegasus Knight
Smash Ace
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Precisely.
That is exactly what I was getting at. Listing all these things that are 'unfair', unique advantages only one character has... and they're not even a problem. We let them rock just fine, and it seems to make things interesting (as I outright said). For some reason, the Miis are 'a problem' though for their gimmick?
Baffling. I am very disappointed we don't allow the Miis to work properly in competition, they don't hurt anything.
That is exactly what I was getting at. Listing all these things that are 'unfair', unique advantages only one character has... and they're not even a problem. We let them rock just fine, and it seems to make things interesting (as I outright said). For some reason, the Miis are 'a problem' though for their gimmick?
Baffling. I am very disappointed we don't allow the Miis to work properly in competition, they don't hurt anything.
Nah
Smash Champion
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We might as well do away with stage banlists then, even if some of the stages have unfair attributes, we should just suck it up and deal with it, right? But I doubt that most people would be into allowing all stages in tournament.
We can't really do anything about those things you listed, and so we have no choice but to roll with 'em. There is no button that lets us turn Mac's super armor off or get rid of Luma. Customs (and stagelists) are something we have control over though. And if people can have control over something they will try to control it, for better or worse.
I'm not really anti-customs or even opposed to Miis in tourneys, I was just putting a reason out there as to why people are opposed to allowing custom Palutena and custom Mii Fighters in Customs Off tournaments.
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Pegasus Knight
Smash Ace
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AS;FKJ2L3KHRLAHSD;KH23TLHQAL;FH
Those are not even remotely the same thing.
We get rid of 75m and stages like it for the obvious reason that they suck for serious play. They're built for wacky random party game shenanigans, and they do that job just fine. Every 15-ish seconds or so, nostalgic game music plays and random Donkey Kong themed obstacles fall on someone! We rightly discount this stage from tournaments.
You cannot even begin to compare the Miis to that level of absurdity. Especially since the 'button that controls Customs' does not affect the Miis. They still work perfectly normally. If those are the sort of reasons anyone is trotting out...
I'm going to go get a drink.
Those are not even remotely the same thing.
We get rid of 75m and stages like it for the obvious reason that they suck for serious play. They're built for wacky random party game shenanigans, and they do that job just fine. Every 15-ish seconds or so, nostalgic game music plays and random Donkey Kong themed obstacles fall on someone! We rightly discount this stage from tournaments.
You cannot even begin to compare the Miis to that level of absurdity. Especially since the 'button that controls Customs' does not affect the Miis. They still work perfectly normally. If those are the sort of reasons anyone is trotting out...
I'm going to go get a drink.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
I seem to have misunderstood.
I honestly don't care about what Miis end up with... But they do indeed have an off button in erasing them. Again, it's separate from customs themselves.
⑨ball
Smash Ace
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Those things aren't even remotely similar. Anyway Palutena and Miis customs aren't banned because of logistics--ala getting the customs themselves. At this point no major tournament has any issues whatsoever getting and running customs for the entire cast. Customs are banned because of preference. Palutena and Miis fall under this because there's no legitimate reason they shouldn't. The community is clearly split on this issue, but as it stands this is what it is.
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Dinoman96
Smash Master
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I kinda see what he means. A lot of characters in Smash, particularly the newcomers in Smash 4, have some sort of "thing" to them that makes them stand out. Lucario's "thing" is his Aura mechanic. Ryu's "thing" is that he can do SF inputs to do more powerful attacks. Little Mac's "thing" is that he has a meter that lets him unleash a powerful KO attack once full. Rosalina's "thing" is that she has a Luma partner. So when you look at Palutena and the Mii Fighters as a whole, like reading their trophy descriptions, watching their trailers, etc, it would appear that Sakurai intended that their "thing" was to have unique custom moves compared to everyone else. That's why people compare them.
That being said, the primary difference is that these character's gimmick (well, for Palutena at least) can be shut off, while characters Lucario and Little Mac retain their gimmick no matter what. And honestly, if TOs had the option to shut off things like Rosalina's Luma and such, they probably would lol.
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kenniky
Smash Master
Well, whatever the game "resets" to after being turned off could be considered the default, right? I mean, there's gotta be a reason to reverting to those options every time you boot up the game. 2 minute time battles, and the default stage selection cursor is on the random button, is it not?
We can even go further and say the initial state of the game is how it's meant to be played. Characters and stages locked, Miis not created, all items on and high.
What I'm trying to get at is that sometimes the "default" settings have to be tweaked.