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Real men play Smash Bros by turning on the Wii U and just mashing start or A until they reach something where they can play and then they compete in that, because that is the true default. Only boys need to change to non-default options in the menu.
You're free to set definitions however you'd like whatever "default" or "x" or "insert random word here" - but when it comes to rulecrafting there needs to be sound reasoning that holds to competitive principles (the principles are the absolute fundamentals that are required to have a competition to begin with).
Yes, that is possible and it always comes down to the question of "does this benefit competition?".
If that's what you are trying to get at then I don't know why you are trying to point that out. I never disputed this point.
Unfair should also count for characters because some people are really dedicated to their character for example imagine a R.O.B. main who really loves R.O.B. being forced to play some lame top tier character because R.O.B. has no real potential to win due to some crappy matchup. That would suck so the game needs to be balanced between characters.
Uh... hello, that was my entire professional career as a top R.O.B. player in Brawl!
Well that isn't subjective or anything.
Super Speed and Lightweight are mandatory. Jump Glide and Explosive Flame are also good alternatives to Warp and AR.
Bombs, lightweight and superspeed. Go nuts!
They hate us for our Mii Freedom.
1111 could not be default given your definition. The software does not have a preselected Mii to choose from - a Mii must be created by a player before it can be used.
They're definitely constrained. You're not going to get a Mii any faster than say, Mario or Pikachu. Tiny swordfighter and gunner are around Mario speed while tiny Brawler is kind of like Yoshi without any range and slightly more air speed.
You guys are right and I fully agree. Helps us get these characters banned or restricted. Reasons shown below.
Well, where exactly would that leave Palutena then? All her specials are like the Mii Fighters in that they're all completely unique. Yet people call them "customs".
If the consensus of competitive play is to adopt a "customs off" approach (regardless of whether or not you personally disagree), then by definition it is applied so that the gameplay of characters cannot be altered from a presented state, meaning no "custom" moves sans the established default. This also means that you shouldn't be allowed to pick your Mii's size or specials, because to do so is to "make the Mii to order for you as a particular player."
Neither of these arguments matter. Like, at all. Here's why:
What does this mean? Who made up this definition? We already have clones that exist as alterations of other characters. Quite a few characters can also alter their gameplay mechanics midmatch.
This is the definition of the word "custom." Obviously.
We do. Those "clones" are also presented as entirely different characters. You're missing the point of what customizing means - two different models of a guitar, for example, aren't considered a custom order for a customer.
In what way? I thing you're confusing "altering" with "applying to different situations." The move isn't fundamentally different than it was before, it's simply introduced to new factors that result in different outcomes.
It's still a customization of a character that fundamentally changes gameplay depending on which size you choose. Some attacks will hit you, some won't. It doesn't escape the issue.
We do. What's your point? Customizing characters and having set tournament rules that are there for a reason are two entirely different things. Nonetheless, if the rules are that characters can't be customized if those changes apply to gameplay, then the ability to change size / specials from a presented state pre-match is banned. If the rules are that items aren't allowed, items are banned.
I guess I wasn't clear? "gameplay of characters cannot be altered from a presented state" touches so many different things that that definition doesn't make sense to use.
You seem to be ignoring any technicalities for end results when applying your customs definition. The end result is that you have 2 slightly different variations of the same character, technicalities be damned. Clones aren't 2 different models, but they same model. That's why they're called clones. Pit and Dark Pit, Lucina and Marth, etc.
Shulk can freely choose a modification on his physics and damage. Kirby has access to any other character on the screen's neutral special. WFT can buff herself. These alter the characters' gameplay from their present states. If Mii fighters only had 1 set of specials, but could toggle between all of them midmatch, would that no longer be altering their gameplay? If not, throw Ryu in there as well.
They're completely different. You start to ban the concept of customization which is already inherent in quite a few characters. Makes no sense. Mii sizes are limited because of their feasibility to be properly implemented in large tournaments.
The thing is, we don't. If we banned items, there would be a ton of problems, just like it doesn't make sense to ban the concept of altering the gameplay of characters. Rulesets I see state that items are set to OFF and NONE, and I see nothing wrong attributing that same logic to special moves, customs set to ON/OFF, no need to deal with everyone's personal slightly different definitions of customs.
It would no longer be altering their gameplay, yes. It's basically the same concept as Shulk's Monado, Pacman's projectiles, or even Ness / Lucas' PK Thunder. Alteration IS the gameplay for these characters. The same can't be said for Mii's, since their alteration doesn't take place during matches.
Bolded for emphasis. See above.
Ah, now this is where you weren't being specific enough. The problem with this is that if you tried to do this in a tournament where Mii's are banned. You'll get disqualified. This is because the rules for Customs Off are a lot more complicated than simply flipping the item switch or a blanket customization ban. Complicated rules exist, and it isn't always a bad thing. Items simply have an easier to understand solution compared to Customs Off.
My mistake, then.
The rules don't state that. Most places will say that customs are set to OFF. That means anything else goes pretty much. Some other places say that the notion of customization is banned. This leads us to have to interpret/understand all that it implies. This is when we go into the silly presented state discussion. It's easier to just state that customs are set to OFF and let the game do the rest. The game rules seem to be the easiest to follow in this regard.
Are we on the same page? Difference between Dark Pit and Pit are pretty similar to the difference between a 1233 and 1333 Mii. Small differences to the same character, ignoring any technicalities, that's the end result. Why allow clones if you aren't allowing the other? I'm not talking about models, and even then it doesn't matter too much since the hurtboxes/hitboxes under the hood describe everything(well, for the most part).
Nah, I'm going by the definition given to me about altering gameplay that you proposed. I believe that Customs Off is everything that the game pretty much defines. No need to extrapolate on my part or make up my own definitions for people to agree since it's mandated by the game what I can/can't do with my character's choice of specials.
Moving goalposts/argument wording? There's no difference between during the match or pre-match outside it being worse during the match. Why make this differentiation when the end results are the same? Or one can just accept that the feature for Miis to change their specials pre-match is the gameplay for these characters.. That makes the most logical sense to me.
Moving goalpost. What makes pre-match so important and who defined it that way? End results are similar enough, no?
It is quite often a bad thing. If little Jimmy asks "Why?" it should be simple and easy to understand/explain, but this is what, one of 10 threads across here and reddit that have discussed this? The solutions are pretty much the same for both Items and Customs: Turn the switch off! lol, that simple. Things like stages have a precise method so we can limit it to the competitively accepted and have a swift and clean experience.
Yes they can, and it's easy, too. "Customs are set to OFF" no extra wording needed. That's as simple as you can get.
If I'm making any mistakes reading your posts, please point them out!
I agree with most of what you're saying, but I also want to point out that almost every character has that feature. It feels like so many people are saying that it is the designed gameplay for Mii Fighters and Palutena to customize them, but this applies to every character in the game except for DLC characters. If you have to flick a switch or if a character's moves are similar to their other specials is not relevant to determine that all of those characters have that feature.
Uhm what? How did you come to this conclusion? Sakurai has said that every character should have three variations of their special moves when he presented the idea for the game. He didn't say that two of those variations are more intended for casual play than competitive play as far as I know.
That is completely unnecessary.
I believe what Sakurai said was that custom moves are something that you use when you want to "cheat" against one of your friends. Then there's the fact that customs were barely touched in patches until recently. However, this is really just Sakurai's opinion. You should know I'm more pro-customs than not. I wasn't trying to put customs down, just differentiate between customs and Mii specials. Customs were intended to be used only with customs on. Mii specials were intended to be used whenever.
As a side effect of Customization only being distinct from "Customs" in select corners of tourney mode, this is a case of unclear meaning that can be construed however the reader wishes. It's also not convincing when most customs are weaker than most defaults. I'll let my opponent cheat any day if it makes them worse, after all.
Customization, not custom specials. I'm pretty sure that he was referring to the combination of custom specials and custom equipment. Equipment could most certainly be seen as cheating, but custom specials are not nearly on the same level as equipment.
