smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[Hellrazor]

Kinda wish Smooth Landing could just be made into a Special Smash mode. That combined with Heavy would be pretty great.

 

[Epok]

Half of me dreams of a way we could get deterministic equipment to tweak the game to our liking, adding some speed and offense, removing some defense, and Smooth Landing (also, how about Hard Braker? That seems like a pretty nice one to me).

But the other half of me worries that this would just create an alien and unfamiliar environment for new players trying to jump into competitive play. This has far reaching effects that changes everything people know about SSB4, and it would confuse and turn off so many people used to vanilla.

And then the third half of me is just like "Who cares, Nintendo's never gonna give us a way to skip the RNG and make equipment we could base a standard on, that's even less likely than them just patching out the landing lag in the first place. No point in fantasizing about what's never gonna happen."

Actually, the Smooth Lander Brawn Badge you get from winning the event challenge is not RNG. That badge is always +36/ -35. As well as all the starter agility, protection, and brawn badges are all standard as well. So it can be standardized quite easily.

I have played with some of the hard breaker stuff and to me it doesn't make enough difference. It doesn't make dash dancing viable either.

 

[I ReZo I]

Do you have any idea how difficult and time consuming it will be to get gear that directly cancels out the stats? I do totally understand that the long term benefit COULD be worth it, but to expect every competitive player to pour countless hours into grinding for the perfect item set that HAS TO INCLUDE one particular item is just asinine. Seriously I'd be spending more time grinding equipment to get ready for tournaments than actually practicing for tournaments

If Nintendo would just make SD Card saves it wouldn't be as big of an issue as we could have one person grind it out or modify the equipment to give him optimal stats, and then just upload that save for public use, but sadly that's not the world we live in.

I just don't think that asking people to grind that much just so we can have the possibility of faster pacing is really worth it. If someone finds out how to grind for these things quickly and efficiently then fine, but the idea of spending dozens of hours to get the perfect set is the most painful concept I've ever had to stomach in all of Smash history

TOs would simply download a modded save file onto an external hdd/flash drive, the equipment will be modded to give absolutely no stat increase/decrease. TOs just pop the save file on all the competition Wii U's and there you have it. No grinding, no work involved other than about 30 min to transfer over the save file.

This is currently being discussed for allowing custom moves in tournaments. Hopefully we will be able to make an "Unlock All" modded save file with everything unlocked, all items/equipment, all custom moves.

I am currently finishing my computer programming degree, so I should hopefully be able to help in the decompile, recompile/reauthorize process. Gonna be a long one.

I have tons of modding experience across all platforms except for Nintendo. It shouldn't take too long to figure out.

If they can make Project M, they can easily figure this out.

It's already been done on Mario kart 8, so it's possible for sure

 

[Conda]

It's a good way to assure Nintendo will not sponsor or support 'our version of Smash 4' tournaments in the future.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Also will people be able to practice at home without modding their system and overwriting their own save data?

 

[I ReZo I]

Also will people be able to practice at home without modding their system and overwriting their own save data?

We could just set it up as a new Profile, that would contain it's own save data for smash. So you could just log out of your usual profile, and into this one just to practice, without affecting your own data at all.

It's a good way to assure Nintendo will not sponsor or support 'our version of Smash 4' tournaments in the future.

It's not a mod like Project M

It's literally going to just unlock all items/custom moves 'as-if' you earned them yourself.

There won't be anything for them to not like, we are not changing anything that isn't already in the base game, just unlocking everything.

 

[Conda]

download a modded save file onto an external hdd/flash drive, the equipment will be modded to give absolutely no stat increase/decrease.

That's what I was referring ot. But if you mean a balanced set of equip, rather than modding a piece of equip to have 0/0, then that's alright. But my post earlier in this thread sticks and any support Nintendo would want to extend to us will be nullified by our attempts here, if we actually move forward with it.

It segments us off from Nintendo for good, and we'll have to live with those consequences. It's much better to embrace the developer into the scene, as the biggest competitive titles have the support of their developer. If we ignore this, then Smash will continue being a grassroots-esque "in spite of the developer'" type of situation.

We can finally perhaps grow up as a competitive game, but if we think modding and influencing game mechanics on our own is the answer, then we truly are a competitive scene that doesn't want Nintendo bothering us. With Nintendo in support of the competitive scene, we can get balance patches that keep stock no-items matches in mind, tournaments, promotion, and consideration as an actual demographic of their game.

However, if we continue having this mentality of "let's make our own game within the game instead and ignore the balance levels designed by the developer", then we are stuck in a loop. If we keep showing that we cannot be pleased, then we cannot complain about Nintendo not trying to make us happy.

If the competitive community still doesn't like the game you developed in part for them, then why bother trying to please them with the next game or with patches? Why bother welcoming the competitive community at all if they are fine with modding your game and playing with physics that can't be considered when designing future balance patches? If they want to play in their own little world with their own rules, then they can make their own smash game and Smash 5 can be a casuals-only affair.

"The hand is finally feeding us, and we shouldn't bite it." This sounds apologist, but really I'm just seeing this plan to use this equipment as a hindrance to competitive Smash's growth potential.

Developer support and acknowledgement is crucial for competitive games. If we play within the physics the developers balance the competitive side of the game for, then we reap the benefits of being acknowledged when the game gets patched, acknowledgement when content updates are brainstormed, acknowledgement when the next game is developed, and more developer support in the competitive pro-gaming scene. If the competitive scene is segmented outside of the main game however, then there's no reason to consider them as they simply want to play their own game.

 

[Muro]

using things in the game alienates the developer...wat?

 

[Conda]

using things in the game alienates the developer...wat?

Is it in for glory? The game mode that balance patches and statistics are gathered from?

FG, with no items or equipment, is the only hand Nintendo has extended to our community. It's a hand that we shouldn't ignore due to our own stubbornness because we want less landing lag. It's the same reason we didn't play high-grav special smash in Brawl, except now there's actual GOOD developer-designed balance that's on the line.

You can't just change physics and expect the balance levels to not chaotically change. The dev team worked hard and achieved very good balance levels for us, yet we are willing to destroy that foundation and have things go haywire. Tossing a game in a blender will not give you better balance.

We don't have to play a mess of a game with haywire balance levels. It's what we're used to, since past Smash games didn't have competitive play in mind at all, but NOW we finally have something resembling balance. Should Nintendo not have bothered? Likely, if we go ahead and do something like this.

If we play the game in a way the developers cannot track nor support, then we are playing in our own game and any balance patches will clash with the way we are playing the game. This alienates the developer, and gives them no reason to consider the competitive community when patching the game, and especially when big tournaments happen. This is not worth it.

 

[Muro]

no it doesn't alienate the dev, they don't give a **** about the competitive environment. Sakurai himself said so. Do you think we should only play on FD? cmon now.

 

[Epok]

That's what I was referring ot. But if you mean a balanced set of equip, rather than modding a piece of equip to have 0/0, then that's alright. But my post earlier in this thread sticks and any support Nintendo would want to extend to us will be nullified by our attempts here, if we actually move forward with it.

It segments us off from Nintendo for good, and we'll have to live with those consequences. It's much better to embrace the developer into the scene, as the biggest competitive titles have the support of their developer. If we ignore this, then Smash will continue being a grassroots-esque "in spite of the developer'" type of situation.

We can finally perhaps grow up as a competitive game, but if we think modding and influencing game mechanics on our own is the answer, then we truly are a competitive scene that doesn't want Nintendo bothering us. With Nintendo in support of the competitive scene, we can get balance patches that keep stock no-items matches in mind, tournaments, promotion, and consideration as an actual demographic of their game.

However, if we continue having this mentality of "let's make our own game within the game instead and ignore the balance levels designed by the developer", then we are stuck in a loop. If we keep showing that we cannot be pleased, then we cannot complain about Nintendo not trying to make us happy.

If the competitive community still doesn't like the game you developed in part for them, then why bother trying to please them with the next game or with patches? Why bother welcoming the competitive community at all if they are fine with modding your game and playing with physics that can't be considered when designing future balance patches? If they want to play in their own little world with their own rules, then they can make their own smash game and Smash 5 can be a casuals-only affair.

"The hand is finally feeding us, and we shouldn't bite it." This sounds apologist, but really I'm just seeing this plan to use this equipment as a hindrance to competitive Smash's growth potential.

Developer support and acknowledgement is crucial for competitive games. If we play within the physics the developers balance the competitive side of the game for, then we reap the benefits of being acknowledged when the game gets patched, acknowledgement when content updates are brainstormed, acknowledgement when the next game is developed, and more developer support in the competitive pro-gaming scene. If the competitive scene is segmented outside of the main game however, then there's no reason to consider them as they simply want to play their own game.

The way I see it is that Nintendo wants us to find what we like and go with it. There are too many ways that this game can be played and too many audiences to appeal to. So I think they gave us these badges and customs to see what we do with. Why would they add these things if they didn't want us to use them or try them in a competitive setting?

They even had items on at their invitational from what I heard. Correct me if I'm wrong. I Think the point we are missing from this is that in exchange for giving us these options for a more competitive setting is that we play ALL of their game, not just for glory mode.

Getting the smooth lander badge that works on all characters you can get in an hour. custom moves, on the other hand will be a little more work. But it might be the best way so we don't "bite the hand" so to speak.

 

[Conda]

no it doesn't alienate the dev, they don't give a **** about the competitive environment. Sakurai himself said so. Do you think we should only play on FD? cmon now.

Just because For Glory is not perfect doesn't mean we should throw a fit to Nintendo in the style of your post. They tried, it's not perfect, but it's a very valuable thing. Developer acknowledgement and support of the competitive community is CRUCIAL for a competitive game to have.

Street Fighter would not be what it is without the players being in-line with the developers. If we sever our connection with the developer's vision, then we are on our own once again and have no reason not to expect the crap that happened pre-2013 to happen again.

The way I see it is that Nintendo wants us to find what we like and go with it. There are too many ways that this game can be played and too many audiences to appeal to. So I think they gave us these badges and customs to see what we do with. Why would they add these things if they didn't want us to use them or try them in a competitive setting?

They even had items on at their invitational from what I heard. Correct me if I'm wrong. I Think the point we are missing from this is that in exchange for giving us these options for a more competitive setting is that we play ALL of their game, not just for glory mode.

Getting the smooth lander badge that works on all characters you can get in an hour. custom moves, on the other hand will be a little more work. But it might be the best way so we don't "bite the hand" so to speak.

Very well-reasoned post. I agree, there is room for an argument that items-on is the intended Nintendo-supported way to play. However, neutral stats is not. Nor are balanced equips. These are things we are adding. Because of this, For Glory's no-equipment standard is more in line with Nintendo's vision for competitive play, as it is one without the balance-negating elements of equipment.

If equipment was in Nintendo's standard vision for competitive play, then balance patches wouldn't be needed because their answer to any roster imbalance would be just to go wear better and stronger equipment. So I think nintendo does value very heavily non-equipment play.

There is room for smooth lander to be a standard, but we'll have to accept that we'll be exempting ourselves from any vision of balance the developers can design for.

Basically:
The developers seem to design for equipment-less play - a competitive ruleset that does not use equipment or speed up landing lag etc is a ruleset that is keeping in-line with the developer's designed balance levels. Since they've shown us they can do well, we should honour and respect their efforts by playing within those balance levels, rather that modifying them. This ensures there is an actual scene to support via balance patches and tournament support, rather than a scene that says 'screw it' to their balance levels and goes about and competes with their own special rules.

Again - if we are a community that doesn't want dev support after they've tried to give it to us, we won't get any in the future.

Edit: I have to stress: I DO support smooth lander, but that doesn't mean I am cool with the repercussions. If we go about this and still receive Nintendo's support and they continue acknowledging our scene, then I'd be all for using Smooth Lander. For Glory is a big deal, though, and where Nintendo is placing their efforts for the competitive-scene-acknowledging changes that will be made for the game. Nintendo may have hosted a tournament with equipment 'on', but them hosting a For Glory tournament in the future is much more likely as the game is out and the competitive players will expect that ruleset.

 

[Muro]

Sorry I just disagree with you on everything.

I think you're very naive to think that they give a **** about competitive tournaments. All they really want is to capitalize on the free advertising they provide.

I think you're also naive to think they're balancing the game with tournaments in mind (lol nerfing little mac).

If anything for glory shows how out of touch they are or how little they care, seeming as they think the "fox only final destination" meme is literally true.

edit: and a last point, if you have to be afraid that a dev will stop supporting you because you want to play the game a certain way, maybe you shouldn't buy their product in the first place.

 

[Conda]

FD is the For Glory map because it was the most popular for Brawl online. People also wanted a way to 1v1. Sakurai made a complete 180 on this from Brawl to Smash 4 and ignoring that is indeed stubborn insistence to treat the developer as an antagonist.

 

[Epok]

Just because For Glory is not perfect doesn't mean we should throw a fit to Nintendo in the style of your post. They tried, it's not perfect, but it's a very valuable thing. Developer acknowledgement and support of the competitive community is CRUCIAL for a competitive game to have.

Street Fighter would not be what it is without the players being in-line with the developers. If we sever our connection with the developer's vision, then we are on our own once again and have no reason not to expect the crap that happened pre-2013 to happen again.



Very well-reasoned post. I agree, there is room for an argument that items-on is the intended Nintendo-supported way to play. However, neutral stats is not. Nor are balanced equips. These are things we are adding. Because of this, For Glory's no-equipment standard is more in line with Nintendo's vision for competitive play, as it is one without the balance-negating elements of equipment.

If equipment was in Nintendo's standard vision for competitive play, then balance patches wouldn't be needed because their answer to any roster imbalance would be just to go wear better and stronger equipment. So I think nintendo does value very heavily non-equipment play.

There is room for smooth lander to be a standard, but we'll have to accept that we'll be exempting ourselves from any vision of balance the developers can design for.

Basically:
The developers seem to design for equipment-less play - a competitive ruleset that does not use equipment or speed up landing lag etc is a ruleset that is keeping in-line with the developer's designed balance levels. Since they've shown us they can do well, we should honour and respect their efforts by playing within those balance levels, rather that modifying them. This ensures there is an actual scene to support via balance patches and tournament support, rather than a scene that says 'screw it' to their balance levels and goes about and competes with their own special rules.

Again - if we are a community that doesn't want dev support after they've tried to give it to us, we won't get any in the future.

Edit: I have to stress: I DO support smooth lander, but that doesn't mean I am cool with the repercussions. If we go about this and still receive Nintendo's support and they continue acknowledging our scene, then I'd be all for using Smooth Lander. For Glory is a big deal, though, and where Nintendo is placing their efforts for the competitive-scene-acknowledging changes that will be made for the game. Nintendo may have hosted a tournament with equipment 'on', but them hosting a For Glory tournament in the future is much more likely as the game is out and the competitive players will expect that ruleset.

I'm not sure if there will be major repercussions on it. I think one of the main reason they don't advocate equipment in for glory is that there is too much random. But since we can easily develop a standard. The whole game shifts(number wise) the same amount. Balance issues are gonna be apparent no matter how we play the game.

 

[Conda]

I'm not sure if there will be major repercussions on it. I think one of the main reason they don't advocate equipment in for glory is that there is too much random. But since we can easily develop a standard. The whole game shifts(number wise) the same amount. Balance issues are gonna be apparent no matter how we play the game.

Possibly, and this is the only supporting argument that speaks to me.

The change to overall balance foundation is immense, though, and balance patches will not take our method of play into account. If a character is powerful with smooth lander but very weak without, and that character gets buffed through a patch, then we end up with an even more powerful character than before. This is one of the dangers.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Throwing in my two cents, I think the only reason For Glory bans customizations of any sort is because the game doesn't support a custom moves on/equipment off setting. It's all or nothing. And given that For Glory is supposed to be the competitive-flavor item-free quickmatch mode, there's no way in hell they would allow equipment when it does insane stuff like auto-heal, spawn with a Bob-omb, explosive perfect shielding, etc. So it all got banned together.

Back on topic, I don't particularly care about Smooth Lander either way but I do think that trying to make it the competitive standard this early in the game's life comes off as trying to force a Melee-esque meta instead of letting the game evolve on its own. If handled poorly (in general, not just for this one specific thing), then there's no telling what will happen in the long term. So I'd advocate caution at the very least and limit it to experimental side events for now at the very most.

 

[Muro]

Using smooth lander is letting the game develop on its own. They put it there...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Using smooth lander is letting the game develop on its own. They put it there...

In a broader sense, if we allow the Smooth Lander equipment then why aren't we allowing any other equipment? (Dodgy Dodger maybe?) But unless we treat equipment as all-or-nothing, then we are artificially selecting the direction we want the meta to evolve. So no, using Smooth Lander and only Smooth Lander equipment is not natural development.

 

[Muro]

By using a competitive ruleset we are artificially selecting the direction we want the meta to evolve. This is nothing different.

 

[Revan_23]

We should definitely limit it to experimental side events for now. Everyone needs to understand that when you buy the game you get a default agility badge and protection badge (which isnt randomized) that you can equip with smooth lander to even out the stats a bit which comes out to be +22 attack -14 defense +7 speed. This is in no way hard to obtain. Since when did we start caring about nintendo or for glory? This is for us.

 

[Epok]

In a broader sense, if we allow the Smooth Lander equipment then why aren't we allowing any other equipment? (Dodgy Dodger maybe?) But unless we treat equipment as all-or-nothing, then we are artificially selecting the direction we want the meta to evolve. So no, using Smooth Lander and only Smooth Lander equipment is not natural development.

The reason this is being considered is because we have a way to standardize stats.

 

[Teshie U]

In all seriousness, if the game is currently trying to be balanced towards aerial and ground based characters, how exactly does smooth lander help out ground hugging characters.

Anyone ever think that maybe stronger moves should be laggy to prevent them being thrown out repeatedly? Just as most smashes will be laggier than tilts, strong as heck aerials are supposed to be less forgiving on whiff.

 

[Revan_23]

In all seriousness, if the game is currently trying to be balanced towards aerial and ground based characters, how exactly does smooth lander help out ground hugging characters.

Anyone ever think that maybe stronger moves should be laggy to prevent them being thrown out repeatedly? Just as most smashes will be laggier than tilts, strong as heck aerials are supposed to be less forgiving on whiff.

if you had the equipment you would know that the laggy moves are still pretty laggy.

 

[Loki]

And what have I been saying? we need data, we need to do tests. Problem is, most people here seem to be too wary to even consider testing it. As epok said, testing this later on will be even harder. Once the meta settles, bring new stuff into the table will be nigh hard to do.

This is no time-bomb... we are not kicking anybody´s balls by using smooth lander wherever it is on a standarised tournament or on a 8 player smash. Programmers tweaking and patching will continue coming up whetever we create smooth lander side events or not.

 

[Epok]

It's still balanced out because shield got buffed. You have more options out of shield than ever before. So there is still a fair amount of risk/reward situations that are balanced. It needs to be tested before we make any final decisions.

 

[ChampKing]

It doesn't need to be tested any more than equipment that increases attack should be tested. It will never happen.

 

[Teshie U]

if you had the equipment you would know that the laggy moves are still pretty laggy.

I know exactly what the equipment does. My point is that when you arbitrarily just make all aerials safer, its going to have a disproportionate effect on who benefits.

I do agree that all of these interesting effects should have been an expansion to special smash though.

 

[Epok]

It doesn't need to be tested any more than equipment that increases attack should be tested. It will never happen.

You're aren't bringing anything relevant to this argument.

as a community, we shouldn't let someone's skepticism become canon. That's how we miss opportunities to develop the game. I plan on testing this and getting actual data to Figure out if its good or bad. I will be collecting videos soon.

 

[Muro]

"You can unlock a challenge near the one that rewards the smooth lander and just use a hammer on it. Much easier to get it. This is pretty exciting. I really hope people give this a chance and test it out."

just saw this on reddit, how easy is it to unlock?

 

[Epok]

"You can unlock a challenge near the one that rewards the smooth lander and just use a hammer on it. Much easier to get it. This is pretty exciting. I really hope people give this a chance and test it out."

just saw this on reddit, how easy is it to

If you have 1 golden hammer already you can probably do it in 30 minutes.

 

[Epok]

Beat all star mode with Shulk in 6 minutes or less and it will unlock a window. Break the two above it and you got it. The actual challenge for the badge is "unlocking all custom movesets".

 

[Pyr]

I don't really see a point in this. Nintendo is obviously going to be doing balance patches from time to time, and I highly doubt they'd be balancing around everyone having a 0/0 version of this item. All this will really do is unbalance the game in a way that can never be fixed (unless Nintendo becomes hilarious and removes the item from the game).

Not to mention the heavy chance of this alienating causal to competitive players and general players alike, as some have already said. Is it worth testing? Maybe. Is it worth implementing? Not a chance. There are far too many risks for very little overall benefit. The game's first year should be handled in a more safe fashion and should remain as accessible as possible to all players.

 

[Epok]

I don't really see a point in this. Nintendo is obviously going to be doing balance patches from time to time, and I highly doubt they'd be balancing around everyone having a 0/0 version of this item. All this will really do is unbalance the game in a way that can never be fixed (unless Nintendo becomes hilarious and removes the item from the game).

Not to mention the heavy chance of this alienating causal to competitive players and general players alike, as some have already said. Is it worth testing? Maybe. Is it worth implementing? Not a chance. There are far too many risks for very little overall benefit. The game's first year should be handled in a more safe fashion and should remain as accessible as possible to all players.

1.) This does not reduce all lag Maybe about 1/3.

2.) This primarily benefits characters that have moves with a significant amount of lag time that make the hard to be played competitively. Most characters that have low lag times on aerials don't see much benefit from it so in a way it helps characters that need it keep up.

3.) Nintendo Put in in the game for a reason. you don't think that they would half expect us not to consider it? Either that or Nintendo is trolling. I truly think that Nintendo wants us to experiment with all these options or else the would not have put them in. There is no true right or wrong way to play smash. Nintendo didn't build the community we did out of enjoyment for the game and for the wanting of a richer experience. Like it or not this is part of it.

4.) Most smash bros games are pretty unbalanced anyway. And since there is a way to equally give everyone the same stats it keeps everyone on the same level that they were in a way.

5.) It does deserve to be tested. If people are okay with modding Brawl into project M, there should really be no complaints with testing this to see what happens. This could seriously bridge the gap between PM/Melee players to Smash Wii U players. Like it or not we are all going to depend on each other to keep Smash as a whole alive and growing.

6.) Nintendo is gonna patch what they wanna patch. No one on this forum can tell me that when the next patch comes out there won't be another complaint post about what they should or should not have fixed.

7.) This is not something hard to obtain so there really is not major barrier of entry. It take a couple hours AT MOST to get it and your off to practice with it on.

8.) safety doesn't really have anything to do with this if it turns out that it's not good and people don't like it then it will be back to vanilla. There is not reason not to strike while the iron is hot right now. It will be harder to implement it later that when the barrier of entry will be tough because too many habits will have been developed.

 

[Pyr]

1.) This does not reduce all lag Maybe about 1/3.

2.) This primarily benefits characters that have moves with a significant amount of lag time that make the hard to be played competitively. Most characters that have low lag times on aerials don't see much benefit from it so in a way it helps characters that need it keep up.

3.) Nintendo Put in in the game for a reason. you don't think that they would half expect us not to consider it? Either that or Nintendo is trolling. I truly think that Nintendo wants us to experiment with all these options or else the would not have put them in. There is no true right or wrong way to play smash. Nintendo didn't build the community we did out of enjoyment for the game and for the wanting of a richer experience. Like it or not this is part of it.

4.) Most smash bros games are pretty unbalanced anyway. And since there is a way to equally give everyone the same stats it keeps everyone on the same level that they were in a way.

5.) It does deserve to be tested. If people are okay with modding Brawl into project M, there should really be no complaints with testing this to see what happens. This could seriously bridge the gap between PM/Melee players to Smash Wii U players. Like it or not we are all going to depend on each other to keep Smash as a whole alive and growing.

6.) Nintendo is gonna patch what they wanna patch. No one on this forum can tell me that when the next patch comes out there won't be another complaint post about what they should or should not have fixed.

7.) This is not something hard to obtain so there really is not major barrier of entry. It take a couple hours AT MOST to get it and your off to practice with it on.

8.) safety doesn't really have anything to do with this if it turns out that it's not good and people don't like it then it will be back to vanilla. There is not reason not to strike while the iron is hot right now. It will be harder to implement it later that when the barrier of entry will be tough because too many habits will have been developed.

1) I know. It's still a benefit that effects more then others.

2) The game is in it's infant stages still. We won't even know who is competitively viable until several months/patches down the line. Making something like this standard this early would likely do far more harm then good.

3) Items are part of the game too. They are universally disallowed at most top-level tournaments. While there is no "right or wrong way" to play Smash in general, there are certain things that need to be done to preserve the competitive section of smash. I do not believe doing something that will eventually require direct modification of the game itself (removing the stat boosts/reductions for the item) is in the best interests of the game as a whole. It makes it inaccessible to some people at best.

4) Initial impressions are showing that this is the most balanced Smash to date. Because the previous versions were unbalanced is very far from a good reason to intentionally skew competitive balance and development.

5) People need to understand that this is a new game. We do not need to conform to the standards of the previous game for that reason. People who want to play Melee will play Melee. The few we lose because they don't like SSB4 is a very low cost compared to an alienated and split playerbase at the beginning of a brand new game's competitive development.

6) While we can't predict what patches will bring, we can have educated guesses as to what those changes might hold. It is unlikely balance patches will be submitted with a specific item in mind, unless the change is to that item.

7) While it's not hard to obtain initially, balancing the stat bonuses will either require specific other equipment to be obtained as well, or modding the game or game's save files. Barrier of entry is a major concern because of that. Again, keeping a few Melee players isn't worth killing off part of the playerbase, causal, competitive, or otherwise.

8) Game health and community health is very much a huge reason to "not strike while the iron is hot." It may be harder to implement later, yes. Want to know what's even harder to change later? Developed habits, a developed metagame, an alienated and split playerbase, and an irked developer who no one would of ever expected to go towards a competitive direction.

Let nature take it's course here. Alter nature later if needed. At worst, we have a P:M like issue. At best, we have the most balanced game in the series, all after time develops it to what it could be.

 

[Epok]

2.) We need to not worry so much about who is better or worse right now because people will use that to skew the "meta". Nintendo will most likely patch due to glitches and for glory records rather that smooth lander items.

3.) Items were tested A LOT before they decided to oust them from competitive play, so I don't see why this should be treated any different. New Game, new mechanics, new feel. Do it early so we get the mess out of the way now. This game will be around for a while. This game will have a different feel and playable a year from now weather we have equips or not.

4.) I agree. If we don't test this and get hard data we won't know how much good/or bad this will impact the game. As of right now the major complains of the game is that it is lacking in mobility, a little slow, and lacks combos (with in reason). This could solve these problems.

5.) We cant alienate ourselves away from the rest of the community. Weather we like it or not the biggest influence to this game is not really us chatting on the thread. It's the pros that are speaking to the masses about how they feel about the game. and what do they all play right not? Melee and P:M. There are just some politics that can't be avoided. It sucks but it is what it is.

6.) I highly doubt this will effect their patches.

7.) There have already been concepts for a basic stat adjustment that will be the same for every character, while it wont be 0/0/0 it is still definitely play able.

8.) You have to understand this is not being forced on anyone we are just trying to get people on board with at least testing this. the worst thing that can happen is people say no.

 

[Pyr]

2.) We need to not worry so much about who is better or worse right now because people will use that to skew the "meta". Nintendo will most likely patch due to glitches and for glory records rather that smooth lander items.

3.) Items were tested A LOT before they decided to oust them from competitive play, so I don't see why this should be treated any different. New Game, new mechanics, new feel. Do it early so we get the mess out of the way now. This game will be around for a while. This game will have a different feel and playable a year from now weather we have equips or not.

4.) I agree. If we don't test this and get hard data we won't know how much good/or bad this will impact the game. As of right now the major complains of the game is that it is lacking in mobility, a little slow, and lacks combos (with in reason). This could solve these problems.

5.) We cant alienate ourselves away from the rest of the community. Weather we like it or not the biggest influence to this game is not really us chatting on the thread. It's the pros that are speaking to the masses about how they feel about the game. and what do they all play right not? Melee and P:M. There are just some politics that can't be avoided. It sucks but it is what it is.

6.) I highly doubt this will effect their patches.

7.) There have already been concepts for a basic stat adjustment that will be the same for every character, while it wont be 0/0/0 it is still definitely play able.

8.) You have to understand this is not being forced on anyone we are just trying to get people on board with at least testing this. the worst thing that can happen is people say no.

2) But the main reason this is being proposed, and as stated by you earlier, is that it'll make some characters better. The same logic applies to this item.

3) As I said, testing can be done. But implementation will be hard, if not impossible, and has serious, immediate consequences if done now, and serious consequences to the game itself if ever implemented. Potential gain will likely never outweigh the cost or damage.

4) Testing will not let us know the full impact of the game. Speculation won't either, but we can still look at past experiences with Brawl's mods, early and otherwise, to see that similar splits can occur. P:M was the only real success, but it still split a community rather badly years after the game was analyzed and developed. Imagine what can happen if done so quickly. We'll just have another split in the community, but this time, with an under-developed game being balanced towards one side over the other.

5) Pros have a large influence, yes. But the less then pros, the casuals, the aspiring... They make up a significant part of the influence, now more then ever before. Success of this game, competitively and otherwise, rides on THEM, not the pros. Pros are just a few people. Non-pros discover and develop the metagame just as much, if not much, much more. THOSE are the ones we don't want to alienate this early in. A few pros for tens of thousands of others? I'll take the tens of thousands doing work we can all use as a community.

6) Correct. Patches will be aimed at character balance, not equipment balance. This piece of equipment, if standard, likely won't be factored in when balancing is done. Thus, some imbalances are left unchecked, threatening overall balance with this item in play. That, or Nintendo balances around the item, which just negatively affects the other side. Their only viable solution would be to remove/rework the item, thus nulling any testing done. Again, with the risk so high and reward, comparatively, so low, we must question the worth of it overall.

7) That's the reason equipment is so concerning in the first place: the stats. Not to mention it IS possible to lose equipment. All this does is raises the barrier of entry for players to play smash competitively. In this day and age of gaming, this is a HUGE downside. Like, unimaginably huge. This next part is untested, and I can test later, but equipment may not be usable on multiple characters/character profiles. Not to mention that we'd need 40+ of these things, and the "balancing" items, we'd need 1 for EACH custom moveset if that's the case and custom moves become allowed. So, SO much work and time and a huge bar set for general competitive entry to the game if that's true. If it isn't true, the former half of this paragraph still stands.

8) I realize that. I am giving reasons why this can have a negative impact before implementation/testing because, as you said, I am "striking while the iron is hot."

 

[I ReZo I]

That's what I was referring ot. But if you mean a balanced set of equip, rather than modding a piece of equip to have 0/0, then that's alright. But my post earlier in this thread sticks and any support Nintendo would want to extend to us will be nullified by our attempts here, if we actually move forward with it.

It segments us off from Nintendo for good, and we'll have to live with those consequences. It's much better to embrace the developer into the scene, as the biggest competitive titles have the support of their developer. If we ignore this, then Smash will continue being a grassroots-esque "in spite of the developer'" type of situation.

We can finally perhaps grow up as a competitive game, but if we think modding and influencing game mechanics on our own is the answer, then we truly are a competitive scene that doesn't want Nintendo bothering us. With Nintendo in support of the competitive scene, we can get balance patches that keep stock no-items matches in mind, tournaments, promotion, and consideration as an actual demographic of their game.

However, if we continue having this mentality of "let's make our own game within the game instead and ignore the balance levels designed by the developer", then we are stuck in a loop. If we keep showing that we cannot be pleased, then we cannot complain about Nintendo not trying to make us happy.

If the competitive community still doesn't like the game you developed in part for them, then why bother trying to please them with the next game or with patches? Why bother welcoming the competitive community at all if they are fine with modding your game and playing with physics that can't be considered when de

Alright, so you have already seen my other post from the custom move post, I don't think I need to explain anything else for you to understand.

I also understand your concern with the item.

Pretty much the entire time I was talking to you, I was simply talking for unlocking all the custom moves.

If we did edit the base stats of an item, that would break the "base game" even though all the items always have a random stat added.

But I have a solution that wont break "the trust" and hopefully you will finally see what I am really getting at here.

So you say the only reason this wont work is because we have to edit an items stats down to 0.

I say throw that out now, it seems your whole argument stemmed from that and then grew into much much more as you typed.

Since we will be going into the save data and simply changing the "isItemUnlocked" values to true, there will be plenty of other items that will completely negate the stat gain, all the while allowing us to still use this item and the game is not modded at all.

It would be the exact same as if we unlocked everything manually.

The only difference is we are typing "isDuckHuntUnlocked = true;" rather than having the game set the value to true when you actually earn him in the game.

Nintendo would have no gripes with this because we are not modding the game (Not in the way that Project M did), we are just making the game think we actually unlocked all of this stuff ourselves by grinding for 300+ hours, when in fact all we are doing is changing a boolean variable from false to true

This is mainly to allow the tournament scene to grow and have alot of variety, with custom moves, and perhaps items (Gonna be alot harder to convince people about the items, but its do-able depending on the save file being provided to the TO's.)

The logistics and such can be left for the future.

Hopefully you understand the point now.

TL;DR
We are essentially taking a 100% completed save file, distributing it to everyone, the Tournament Organizers can then take this file, put it on a flash drive/external hard drive, walk up to their competition Wii U's, and Copy/Move the file to the competition Wii U. No grinding, everything is 100% unlocked and it allows the TO's to efficiently organize their tournament, while still providing a lot of diversity using custom moves. Its quick, and its easy, and that is what the TO's really want.

 

[Nstinct]

I'd be up for a Smooth Lander Badge tournament to test it out. After the tournament the players could take a survey to let everyone know what they thought about it.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Might as well just try equipment period, excusing Crit/Heal and see what sticks.