smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[Muro]

Why would you "say yes to the first"? What empirical evidence exists to support your radical notions?

gut feeling brah. Why do you think it's better without? What empirical evidence exists to support your radical notions?

 

[Shog]

Why are you arguing with him anyways? He didn't try it out at all. I mean come on. That is the same as "theorymon" on the Smogon Forums

 

[Redline!]

gut feeling brah. Why do you think it's better without? What empirical evidence exists to support your radical notions?

My notions aren't radical. I'm not advocating a major imposition upon a still-burgeoning metagame. I'm advocating some restraint and consideration.

In a year or so, when we have some real metagame data and patches might have been released, I'd be totally willing to debate this more scientifically. I might even be in favor of it! But "gut feelings" aren't a rational basis for the sort of action you're proposing.

 

[Muro]

... this is going nowhere, I'm out.

 

[Lenus Altair]

is that any different than changing the status of a stage from neutral to counterpick. What's the difference here?

The difference being that by allowing that equipment, you are in effect changing how every character in the game plays, in essence changing the physics of the game. Additionally the reason for deciding one stage as neutral and another as a counterpick is how much it warps the neutral game state (hence the term.) What reason(s) are there for adding this single item effect?

It's as arbitrary as any other rule we have come up with. This is exactly my point, playing with smooth lander on is as part of the "characters and game physics as given to us" as anything else. The only questions we should ask is "would it benefit the metagame? Is it possible to implement?". I'd say yes to the first and sadly no to the second.

Is a rule that we play 3 stock matches as arbitrary as playing 100 stock matches? No, its not. There is a certain rationale behind why the community has agreed to a certain number of stocks versus another. What is your rationale for smooth lander benefiting the metagame?

---------------- edit

Lots of action while I typed it out... oh well.

 

[Muro]

Ok lenus at least the conversation is moving forward so I'll leave a last reply.

The difference being that by allowing that equipment, you are in effect changing how every character in the game plays, in essence changing the physics of the game. Additionally the reason for deciding one stage as neutral and another as a counterpick is how much it warps the neutral game state (hence the term.) What reason(s) are there for adding this single item effect?

but the way every character in the game plays without the sl item is not inherently the best one, and is not inherently the one we should choose.

Is a rule that we play 3 stock matches as arbitrary as playing 100 stock matches? No, its not. There is a certain rationale behind why the community has agreed to a certain number of stocks versus another. What is your rationale for smooth lander benefiting the metagame?

the rationale is that it makes the game more geared towards aggression, which is imo a desirable thing. Yes it's subjective, but it's also subjective saying you prefer the way things are.

we all agree this will never be implemented so now I'm really out.

 

[MrHomelessHobo]

No, smoother lander will never be allowed.

 

[Xiao-Xiao]

I would like it to be a side event if theres a way to share data between consoles. Shouldn't be a standard thing though.

 

[Wiley]

Smooth landing DLC pack. Either implement the function into it's own mode. Or you could essentially create different game modes with 3 universal items that can not be modified. It must be equipped as a set. You could essentially have Smash bros 5, 6, 7 with major game play tweaks in the same game by just selling equipable and balanced sets. This would be Nintendo caring about an old competitive outcry, even though the game is as is... pretty damn good.

What I've experienced with my 20 odd years with Nintendo, is that they instead spend countless hours/years on their baby, then leave it on the doorstep and forget about it. Maybe they'll look to it with Pride, but they let it go and do little to interact down the road. The games of today, (mostly F2P which is even more of a wtf) offer updates on a very regular basis. It's one area Nintendo has always fell behind to me.

That being said, I kind of enjoy having to push myself to be better than the next guy with interesting techs and strats to compensate for whatever the state of the game is in. I could handle this, but I'd much rather the group just came to a consensus already (especially on custom moves alone) so I could focus my efforts T_T

 

[LancerStaff]

Smooth landing DLC pack. Either implement the function into it's own mode. Or you could essentially create different game modes with 3 universal items that can not be modified. It must be equipped as a set. You could essentially have Smash bros 5, 6, 7 with major game play tweaks in the same game by just selling equipable and balanced sets. This would be Nintendo caring about an old competitive outcry, even though the game is as is... pretty damn good.

What I've experienced with my 20 odd years with Nintendo, is that they instead spend countless hours/years on their baby, then leave it on the doorstep and forget about it. Maybe they'll look to it with Pride, but they let it go and do little to interact down the road. The games of today, (mostly F2P which is even more of a wtf) offer updates on a very regular basis. It's one area Nintendo has always fell behind to me.

That being said, I kind of enjoy having to push myself to be better than the next guy with interesting techs and strats to compensate for whatever the state of the game is in. I could handle this, but I'd much rather the group just came to a consensus already (especially on custom moves alone) so I could focus my efforts T_T

It's a nice idea, but you can't just give the playerbase options like that without dividing it. It's like adding a Melee mode or something.

 

[Wiley]

It's a nice idea, but you can't just give the playerbase options like that without dividing it. It's like adding a Melee mode or something.

Yep. Definitely would create a bit of a divide. Such is the case with every new installment of the game to a degree though. Luckily a lot of the players who prefer Melee still played Brawl/Smash4 so it would never be a requirement. But with the flip of a custom set you could be playing a very different game. I'm not pushing for this just yet, as I really enjoy Smash 4 vanilla so far, just thought it could be interesting lol.

 

[Rakurai]

It kind of feels like the Smooth Lander ability reduces the number of recovery frames on an attack by a fixed amount, as laggy aerials like Ganondorf's dair are still too slow to get any follow-ups off of with one ability equipped, where already fast aerials become virtually, if not completely lagless.

From testing it with various characters, it seems to benefit the ones with already fast aerials much more then it does the slower ones, so it's not really that balanced overall.

 

[iLLuMinati_EYE]

It kind of feels like the Smooth Lander ability reduces the number of recovery frames on an attack by a fixed amount, as laggy aerials like Ganondorf's dair are still too slow to get any follow-ups off of with one ability equipped, where already fast aerials become virtually, if not completely lagless.

From testing it with various characters, it seems to benefit the ones with already fast aerials much more then it does the slower ones, so it's not really that balanced overall.

How long did it take you to get the equipment? Ive noticed that there is smoothlander that only works for individual characters rather than all of them, which I seem to have gotten

 

[micstar615]

There was a post someone made in the competitive equipment discussion thread that said that said that all tourneys should have side events or alternative "equipment" tournaments that allow the use of equipment. Despite the random nature of equipment I personally think they could add a lot of depth to the game by changing up the way characters play and this shouldn't be flat out rejected. But as of now we should let the meta develop and not skew things so I believe that equipment should only be allowed in side events, however the community should give these events a fair shot instead of rejecting them imo. Being side events also allows us to test builds and sets without interfering with the main tournaments and standard competitive meta game.

 

[Leebee]

we already know how much smooth lander reduces the frames by= it cuts 1/3 of them off. in that way, it benefits characters who have slower aerials more than ones with faster ones.

 

[Rakurai]

Most of the slow aerials are still too slow to be able to do anything new with them combo wise.

On the other hand, the already fast aerials can become quick enough to allow for practically anything to be used as a follow-up at certain percents. Some of them even seem fast enough that you can feasibly grab somebody if they get shielded.

 

[B!squick]

Heal over time should be allowed too because not getting hit is hard.

 

[SanicJan]

I've found a speed variation to this and it increases speed by 17 and decreases attack by 20. Not bad but the randomness of the stats is a problem. Sometimes you'll get stats so high from this it's insane. I just wish someone can get one with at least +5 in speed/defense/attack and -5 in speed/defense/attack because then it might be legal and this one at least would be good for the metagame. Not any of the other's though.

 

[Quisciens]

Shifts the balance of the game a LITTLE too much, I wouldn't do this. If a Ganon tries a shorthop aerial, what are you to do against him then? Additionally, if you have a smooth-landing Ganon versus a normal Ganon, how does the normal Ganon come out on top?

 

[Bearbuddy4]

Like my parents always said when i was growing up in my country. "det er for mye styr"

it means "it is too much trouble"

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

So it's been found out that Wii U-version gives Smooth Lander-badge always for unlocking all custom moves for the characters. This gives +36 Attack, -35 Defense.

We have a reliable way to get this effect now.

 

[Spak]

So it's been found out that Wii U-version gives Smooth Lander-badge always for unlocking all custom moves for the characters. This gives +36 Attack, -35 Defense.

We have a reliable way to get this effect now.

Unlock all the custom moves? Ain't nobody got time for that!

 

[Loki]

Dood, its not about everyone has to. In tournaments, you only need about 3 or 4 WiiU´s with that and then you are all set. Quoting a post of mine in another thread...

Me and my friends play with smooth lander and let me tell you it is a real deal. Not gamebreaking buf deffnly a noticeable and I dare say, welcomed change. Offensive game really gets a boost while still not really discouraging the defensive tools and maneuvers the game offers.

As for us, we have optimized it to the point that we have +3 str, +1 def and +7 spd. We havent felt a noticeable change in characters mechanics (damage, KB, etc) outside the obvious landing lag reduction. I am no Melee pro and I kind of disliked the idea of turning brawl into Melee with PM but I tell you, it feels gooooood...

Matches are really fluent. Most matches were with 3 stocks and they lasted between 5:30 and 3 minutes. When someone went offensive it was really intense because of their new safe options so neutral game also gained value with this. I´ll try to share our replays as soon as my friend uploads them.

Overall, more than ever, I emphazise we should give smooth landing a shot. It IS worth a damn.

 

[Arle Nadja]

The thing about equipment is that it's very poorly balanced. Here's my understanding of equipment in a nutshell.

Power builds are generally gimped extremely easily by any character with a counter. Simply counter and the power build can die at as low as 0% (Edit: This is because counters in SSB4 get stronger the stronger the attack they counter.)

defense builds are the best builds. Maintain control of the stage and or take custom moves / characters that won't mind the reduction to their jump very much and you're in heaven. Spec into self-healing or perfect shielding (Or both) for a powerful pivot to punish people trying to put pressure on you.

Speed builds are a gimmick. Properly built, you will become so fast and agile that you can leap right over final destination in a single jump. Your attacks will do a chunk less damage, but your gimmick revolves mostly around being impossible to chase and your speed making it so that absolutely nowhere on the stage is 'safe'. You take away control from the other player, but at the speeds you need to move to reliably do so good luck controlling yourself.

 

[Balgorxz]

So it's been found out that Wii U-version gives Smooth Lander-badge always for unlocking all custom moves for the characters. This gives +36 Attack, -35 Defense.

We have a reliable way to get this effect now.

great news, but this is suspicious why would they add this thing to the game?
are they really listening to what people says, smooth lander is awesome and I'll be running side events with it everytime I can.

 

[ChampKing]

Still doesn't stand a chance at happening because it is no different then using equipment to add attack. It may subjectively make the game more fun for some but it isn't going to be an actual thing outside of casual play and bad side events.

 

[Loki]

Thats why a standard must be set and we will only be able to do this by properly testing the do and dont´s of these things. I agree that equipments are complex, specially when it comes to free-for-all customisation. Allowing people to create their own sets of equipments will only ensue chaos and while that is ok for casual play, we obviously dont want that competitively.

However, if we do create a standard for this we should be more than fine. Working around this sinlge piece of equipment is not as chaotic as some of you might seem to think. With proper study and data we can create a "tourney format" that revolves around using Smooth lander and have it be as controlled as a conventional one.

We should not be scared to experiment with new variables, specially when the potential gain is as good and noteworthy as this.

 

[ソチャラ「Sóchara 」]

Landing lag is a part of this game. You have to be smart about faking out your landings so as not to get punished. Smooth lander is a cop out. An artificial crutch against the art of war. 'Nuf said.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'll be frank. Anyone who is advocating this as a way to fix the still newborn metagame are either far too impatient or playing the wrong game. Smash 4 is still a new game, and needs time to develop naturally. When we start adding on things we have to make sure it does not complicate the competitive spirit of the game.

Almost everyone here who advocates for this is doing so because it's "more fun". In that case, I have no qualms against that. However, this immediately falls on it's head when one assume that everyone else would follow suit. This is essentially the same situation when Brawl+, Balanced Brawl, Brawl-, and eventually Project: M came into fruition. It may seem mind-boggling at first, but there are people out there who prefer slower-paced fighting games that relies more on footsies and hard reads. That's why players within the competitive community stuck with Brawl until Smash 4 came out, even if Project: M is a faster paced game and is gaining a lot more attention than expected. It's because people who enjoyed Brawl enjoyed the fundamental aspects of it.

Custom Specials are heavily advocated because they do not change the fundamental aspect of the game. Smooth Lander does. Even if it is more fun to the ones who advocate this, I can assure you it won't be fun to the ones who enjoy Smash 4 for what it is now.

 

[Muro]

what are the effects of +36 attack -35 defense?

 

[Loki]

I disagree. In any case, we are not letting this metagame grow in every and possibly way because of our close minds. True, Sm4sh metagame is on diapers and evolving, this is why, with even more reason, we should experiment in every single possible way. Smooth lander is a piece worth experimenting. If we close ourselves to this, more than allowing the meta to evolve towards every possible way, we will be restraining its development to a single desired way. Quite the opposite of what we want.

I am not saying Smooth Lander should be a de facto equipment, a tournament-must, however I do believe that we should give it a chance to show us what can be. Some people here seem to think that this is not "how the game was meant to be played". Well, wavedash wasn´t supposed to be the cornerstone of Melee, chaingrabs werent supposed to be on Brawl, yet people grew used to them either for good or bad and the meta grew around them.

Sm4sh is breaking paradigms, stuff that before was considered absolute is being questioned in a new light. Why cant this get the same treatment?

We are not playing "the wrong game", we are discovering all the ways this game can be played.

 

[Conda]

This doesn't mean the game will be balanced with it in mind. The developers will not nerf or buff characters based on their strength levels with this equipment equipped.

Smash is finally designed and developed with an inclusive attitude towards the competitive community. We get many legal non-hazard stages, FD variety, general character balance that no other smash game has seen, removal of anti-competitive mechanics, addition of competition-bolstering mechanics, and balance + bug patches.

It's like if the competitive LoL scene constantly used Twisted Treeline as the competitive map, when the game was balanced around Summoner's Rift play. Balance patches that come out will be to improve how the game works on Summoner's Rift more than anything. By sticking to Twisted Treeline metagame advances, you gain nothing of the effort the developer has and continues to make to make the actual intended competitive game better.


For the first time in Smash Bros history, the developers finally support our competitive scene. Yet we're willing to show them we truly cannot be pleased and are not worth trying to support. Why do we scratch our heads when Nintendo doesn't consider the hardcore audience sometimes? Maybe because we can be fickle and constantly try to change the game and turn it into our own modified product. There's no support for them to give if we only want our own support.

There's no reason why the developer of a game should care for one of its demographics if that demographic doesn't actually enjoy the game they developed, but only enjoys the game they spitefully crafted from it with energy gained from their disdain of the developer.

There's more landing lag in Smash 4 on some moves than before. The game is, however, balanced around this. People spent years doing this, and they are credible professional fighting game developers. If we want to topple over the balance structure they have designed, then we shun them from our community for good.

They tried to make us happy - if we show them that they didn't, then I see no reason why Smash 5 won't go back to the mindset of "casuals only, because the competitive community just enjoys modified versions of our games anyway so why should we bother making a game for them?"

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

If only it was easier to get the perfect equipment to cancel out all the stat boosts/drops. It would take FOREVER grinding to get ready for a tourney.

 

[HeroMystic]

Sm4sh is breaking paradigms, stuff that before was considered absolute is being questioned in a new light. Why cant this get the same treatment?

We are not playing "the wrong game", we are discovering all the ways this game can be played.

I see where you're coming from. Thing is, there's a process to this. I'll try to make an example.

Smash's "default" is 4-manned, 2 minute timed matches where the goal is to get more points than the other opponent(s) with items on. Almost immediately, there are issues with this. Items, particularly explosive ones, provide randomness. Scoring as many KOs as possible gives huge disparities to defensive characters and aggressive characters reign supreme, and ultimately the best way to win an FFA is to stay away from the brawlfest of characters and steal kills.

So perhaps even naturally, competitive players have switched to stocks, then found the most skill to be in 1v1 battles (or 2v2s). Items were eventually turned off to remove randomness, and players began developing the metagame. This is all to enhance the competitive spirit of the metagame.

More relevantly, custom specials are getting a huge push to become tournament viable for a number of reasons. It provides new options to most all characters, and gives them the ability to develop counter-strategies within their specific match-ups. In short, this is another way to enhance the metagame. We've also thoroughly tested them as well, to make sure they don't completely break the game. Fortunately they don't.

Now Smooth-landing may be fun to play around with. I don't know, I don't have it. But I don't see how it'll enhance the metagame. In fact I'll go as far as to say it'll destroy the existing one and start over from scratch. This is also disregarding the logistics, which is already difficult enough with custom specials.

 

[Epok]

I have a few issues with the hesitation of at least experimenting with the smooth lander items.

One of these is project M. People were willing to MOD THE GAME to get a desired smash experience. And now it is accepted as a main smash title at major tournaments. Now Nintendo is willingly handing us an option to to suit what very well could be a positive influence to the the smash 4 competitive scene as well as bridge the gap between melee players and smash 4 players and all of a sudden people are hesitant to even TRY it. I just don't understand that.

We really don't have anything to lose for us to at least try it.

Most tournaments have agreed that they want to have all custom moves so we have to go though the work of unlocking it anyway and you get the smooth lander badge as a bonus. So it's really not extra work.

I feel like people are too concerned with meta. The WII U version is a week old. We should play the game and explore it now instead of sitting here discussing who is gonna be the best so that we can figure out our mains. Too many people use the meta/tier list as a "cheat sheet" to see who are the characters to play. Not to mention Nintendo is obviously trying balance out characters via patch. Who is to say that they won't do it again in response to the meta. Since it is so early in the games life now would be the perfect time to figure all this out before we make any concrete decisions on tournament play.

If Nintendo didn't want us to have things that adjusted stats on characters they would not have added it. If anything they GAVE US the tools to figure how WE WANT TO PLAY THE GAME.

 

[Balgorxz]

Landing lag is a part of this game. You have to be smart about faking out your landings so as not to get punished. Smooth lander is a cop out. An artificial crutch against the art of war. 'Nuf said.

smooth lander doesn't cancel landing lagg, it only reduces 2/3 of it making the game faster overall and more enjoyable, the lagg is still there and you still have to deal with it, there's nothing to lose here.

 

[Spak]

smooth lander doesn't cancel landing lagg, it only reduces 2/3 of it making the game faster overall and more enjoyable, the lagg is still there and you still have to deal with it, there's nothing to lose here.

So it's like L-cancelling but it cancels more lag and requires no skill?

 

[HeroMystic]

I have a few issues with the hesitation of at least experimenting with the smooth lander items.

One of these is project M. People were willing to MOD THE GAME to get a desired smash experience. And now it is accepted as a main smash title at major tournaments. Now Nintendo is willingly handing us an option to to suit what very well could be a positive influence to the the smash 4 competitive scene as well as bridge the gap between melee players and smash 4 players and all of a sudden people are hesitant to even TRY it. I just don't understand that.

We really don't have anything to lose for us to at least try it.

Most tournaments have agreed that they want to have all custom moves so we have to go though the work of unlocking it anyway and you get the smooth lander badge as a bonus. So it's really not extra work.

Modding the game is not nearly the same as adding a piece of equipment or even introducing custom specials into the metagame. When you mod the game, you're commiting to the fact that you're changing the fundamentals of the game, whether it be through the engine(Project: M), or the characters themselves(Balanced Brawl). No matter which method, it's an entirely different game and is treated as such.

I also have to say that Project: M did not come into the picture until about two years after Brawl's lifespan, with the idea that it would effectively be Melee 2.0. You see, at this point the majority of competitive players deemed Brawl to be a lackluster (i.e. not fun) competitive game, myself included. Project: M since then has become a much bigger and much more respected project, and I applaud all the developers for their diligence. Modding an engine, characters, and rebalancing the game is not an easy feat at all.

That may seem like a ramble, but it's incredibly important to realize that saying "Smash 4 is only a week old" is a point against your stance. It is effectively saying that you won't allow the game to show what it is capable of without modifying it and therefore making it more complicated.

To the bolded: It's more work in that it gives stat changes, and one has to grind for equipment to make it a perfect 0, unless competitiors are willing to take the boost of +36 attack and -35 defense, which makes heavies weaker since they already have enough power, and speed characters stronger since they can KO much sooner (Smooth landing only pushes this more in their favor).

 

[Epok]

Modding the game is not nearly the same as adding a piece of equipment or even introducing custom specials into the metagame. When you mod the game, you're commiting to the fact that you're changing the fundamentals of the game, whether it be through the engine(Project: M), or the characters themselves(Balanced Brawl). No matter which method, it's an entirely different game and is treated as such.

I also have to say that Project: M did not come into the picture until about two years after Brawl's lifespan, with the idea that it would effectively be Melee 2.0. You see, at this point the majority of competitive players deemed Brawl to be a lackluster (i.e. not fun) competitive game, myself included. Project: M since then has become a much bigger and much more respected project, and I applaud all the developers for their diligence. Modding an engine, characters, and rebalancing the game is not an easy feat at all.

That may seem like a ramble, but it's incredibly important to realize that saying "Smash 4 is only a week old" is a point against your stance. It is effectively saying that you won't allow the game to show what it is capable of without modifying it and therefore making it more complicated.

To the bolded: It's more work in that it gives stat changes, and one has to grind for equipment to make it a perfect 0, unless competitiors are willing to take the boost of +36 attack and -35 defense, which makes heavies weaker since they already have enough power, and speed characters stronger since they can KO much sooner (Smooth landing only pushes this more in their favor).

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against Project M. I have a lot of respect for people that are able to do that with that much dedication. It's rather amazing actually.

It's always awkward to talk about the competitiveness or lack there of in Brawl with out it being a sensitive subject. It's had to have these conversations because melee became the benchmark for what a competitive smash should be, because it was the 1st successful one at a large scale. This is both good and bad. Good for the sake of logistics and competitive spirit, but bad for the fact that anything that is different from this game physics or mechanics is deemed "bad"

My stance is event clearly set on the fact that smooth lander should be implemented into competitive.I am fine with accepting the game without it only under the context that tested first.

I feel it is imperative that we research it before the game becomes fully established. It will be double the work to try to go back and figure out how to make it work if we decide to add it years down the road. I would even say that it might me met with more resistance then than now.

Last night after I made this post it took me less that 2 hours to unlock the badge. Mostly because of the fact that I had to look up a way to get the second hammer to break the event challenge window. So it ins't very labor intensive to get it.

What I tried is what some of the other people have done is add in the starter protection and agility badge. This will put every characters stats at +22 attack, -14 defense, +7 speed. I know it looks iffy as far as the numbers go, but when played it feels like a good mix of melee speed while still retaining the refreshing Smash Wii U flavor a lot of people still enjoy. I will say the only draw back I have noticed is that characters do die faster, but not by much. If you can DI fairly well you can still live into the 120%-140% range.

If anything, it's suuuuuuper fun wether is becomes a staple or not. Try it !

 

[MegaMissingno]

Half of me dreams of a way we could get deterministic equipment to tweak the game to our liking, adding some speed and offense, removing some defense, and Smooth Landing (also, how about Hard Braker? That seems like a pretty nice one to me).

But the other half of me worries that this would just create an alien and unfamiliar environment for new players trying to jump into competitive play. This has far reaching effects that changes everything people know about SSB4, and it would confuse and turn off so many people used to vanilla.

And then the third half of me is just like "Who cares, Nintendo's never gonna give us a way to skip the RNG and make equipment we could base a standard on, that's even less likely than them just patching out the landing lag in the first place. No point in fantasizing about what's never gonna happen."