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Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

KeithTheGeek

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Duck Hunt and Diddy Kong's vertical recoveries are practically non-existent. Sonic's vertical recovery is also significantly reduced.

Mega Man's is a weird case where it's terrible, but at the same time can be exploited to basically infinitely recover. For this reason we use the Tornado Hold custom (which is an unlock on the challenge board) to patch that. For the other characters, I think the only one people sort of agreed to changing was Duck Hunt's, but most of us stick with vanilla for those characters because none of their up b customs are on the challenge board.

EDIT: Just to further elaborate, though, Sonic has other ways of recovering, as does Diddy. DH is really the only one that suffers in this respect more than any of the other characters.
 
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ArtfulHobbes

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Hey everyone. I'm looking to have a HGSL side event at my next local, and I'm of course already aware of the recovery issues some characters suffer. I've heard custom moves can help mitigate these issues. Would anyone happen to know which characters in particular, and which customs they need?
Glad to see you're trying to get a side event at your local scene! As of right now, only 2 customs are truly required to play this mode.

One is Mega Man's tornado hold which can be unlocked via the challenge board by completing a master orders as Mega Man. Rush coil can be used indefinitely offstage so tornado hold was easy to get and a replacement instantly.

Second, is Duck Hunt's Super Duck Jump. His normal Up-B didn't give vertical height or a hitbox or anything, so this changes his recovery for the better as vertical recovery is more useful in heavy gravity. Grinding in Trophy Rush with Duck Hunt with nab you this custom eventually.

EDIT: Greninja'd...
 
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ZADD

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I would grind All-star on hard for Duck Hunt's custom recovery.

I usually get his Super Duck Jump in ~10 minutes.
 
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SaturnFrost

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Hey everyone. I'm looking to have a HGSL side event at my next local, and I'm of course already aware of the recovery issues some characters suffer. I've heard custom moves can help mitigate these issues. Would anyone happen to know which characters in particular, and which customs they need?
Mind streaming/ recording that? Also when is it taking place?

Only legals we all agreed on was DHD and MM recoveries...suggestions for ganon and a few others were thrown out there and tested but the community never really came to a conclusion past making MM and DHD's legal.
 

TheDerp

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Hey everyone. I'm looking to have a HGSL side event at my next local, and I'm of course already aware of the recovery issues some characters suffer. I've heard custom moves can help mitigate these issues. Would anyone happen to know which characters in particular, and which customs they need?
All of these are nerfed but have an alternative custom move. Link's Up B, Dr.Mario's and Luigi's Down B, Duck Hunt, Wii Fit Trainer and Megaman (Both of his customs). Might have missed some, let me know if I did.

Now, Diddy Kong, Sonic and Toon Link's recovery's are nerfed and don't have an alternative custom. Toon Link can be let off cause it's not very noticeable and he also has a Wall jump anyway. Might have missed some, let me know if I did.
 
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McAwesome

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Having to grind for customs isn't an issue for me. I used AR to unlock them all on my 3DS, which was how I planned to spread the SL sets to the other setups on tourney day.
 

KeithTheGeek

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Having to grind for customs isn't an issue for me. I used AR to unlock them all on my 3DS, which was how I planned to spread the SL sets to the other setups on tourney day.
I'm curious, were you able to add in equipment matching the stats and effects of the ones we use in the OP? I had also been thinking about getting power saves for various smash-related reasons.

@ TheDerp TheDerp nerfed recovery isn't necessarily a bad thing, most of those characters can still make it back when recovering optimally. In general it's a good idea to limit how many customs we need to unlock because as the number goes up, the greater amount of time it will take to unlock them unless you have access to a 3DS and powersaves...

EDIT: Also Sonic does have Hammer Spin Dash, but that gives him such an insanely powerful tool in neutral that he would probably be broken in a meta where other characters don't use customs.

EDIT 2: Just swapped out Duck Hunt's recovery and wow, the character feels so much better now that he's able to take risks. If anything else, this is definitely the recovery you want to change out. He's basically unusable otherwise.
 
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Muro

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Having to grind for customs isn't an issue for me. I used AR to unlock them all on my 3DS, which was how I planned to spread the SL sets to the other setups on tourney day.
I'm not sure, but I think I read somewhere you can't distribute equipment badges from a 3ds to a wii u. Maybe I'm wrong?

You'll probably need to set it up beforehand, have you looked at the badges in the OP? You can hammer challenges A7, B2 and B6 to get a balanced set for HG. After that you'd just have to equip characters on the consoles you're gonna use in the event.

I echo others in the custom moves issue, switching Mega Man is kinda obligatory to prevent stalling (his recovery can be unlocked from the challenge board too, and it's reeeally easy). And if you wanna go the extra mile it's probably a good idea to give duck hunt a custom recovery too.
 
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ZeroJanitor

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^You can deliver custom characters with the equipment to a Wii U
 

ZADD

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^You can deliver custom characters with the equipment to a Wii U
The problem is the equipment we use to play SLHG (with this build) is exclusive to the Wii U version, as they are Wii U Challenge Rewards.

You can transfer SL Wii U characters to a 3DS, but you can't transfer that same character to a different Wii U afterwards :(

The Wii U challenge rewards are the easiest method to achieve a balanced Smooth Lander build, the whole process takes 10 minutes on a new console. It's harsh to be forced to wipe your memory, but for SLHG it's totally worth imo.
 
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ArtfulHobbes

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Trust me, if we could find a sure fire way to add this in with the 3DS then we would have done that absolutely. But the most balanced build we got is exclusive WiiU version. But like @ ZADD ZADD said, a brand new WiiU console can unlock all the equipment faster than unlocking all the characters and stages. The only time consuming thing really is just getting Duck Hunt's recovery.
 

JCOnyx

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I remember a long time ago we were discussing the possibility of experimenting with custom stages. I decided to try and normalize the platform layouts on Battlefield to where most characters could reach them with a single full jump, but certain characters like Ganon still couldn't make it. Not to mention the obnoxious clipping issues characters like Bowser, DDD, and Ganon go through when the platforms are that low.

Did anyone else try out anything and see if there could be any benefit to SLHG in general? I know that I've been wanted to test FoxMcLovin's custom stages (Castle Siege, Bowser's Castle, Yoshi's Story, etc) in SLHG but haven't gotten around to it yet.

On the current discussion, I still think DHD's standard UpB is better than his custom since you get so much horizontal recovery out of it. But I'm a very mediocre DHD at best, so maybe I'm not in the know and you guys really need that vertical recover option.
 

ArtfulHobbes

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On the current discussion, I still think DHD's standard UpB is better than his custom since you get so much horizontal recovery out of it. But I'm a very mediocre DHD at best, so maybe I'm not in the know and you guys really need that vertical recover option.
He doesn't gain any sort of vertical recovery from it though. And no hitbox or anything, leaving him to be a sitting duck(hunt). All they have to do is wait at the edge and downtilt your recovery and you can't do anything. Duck Hunt needs something that can snap to ledge from underneath it.

Oh, also I think Mii Swordsman should get his custom Up-B 2 here as well. It can be used diaganolly and helps him a lot better whereas his horizontal recovery and vertical recovery was utter crap before.
 

ZADD

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Sort of random, but where else would I ask?
I'm leaning toward maining :4myfriends: in SLHG, does anyone know any true setups he has in SLHG?

Grab setups, frame traps etc. Things he gains that are exclusive to SLHG..


The more I mess with him, it's obvious that this character can bulldoze over other characters. He has speed, setups, an amazing recovery, and not to mention a counter (which is exceedingly useful in SLHG)
 
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TheDerp

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I don't know anything about Ike. One thing I do know though is that Kirby becomes a Jab lock master in this B).

Once the Opponent is over 35 just hit them with Back, Neutral or Forward air and then just Down tilt (You need to pray to the tech lord to disable their ability to tech first). Even if your opponent techs every time though you still have Down air spam (Unless they they shield alot, in that case Grab and do a Forward throw).

I personally believe Kirby has a 0 to Death combo which doesn't involve Locks, might have to get on that.
 

Muro

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Ok I haven't put a lot of time into him lately, I kinda reverted back to marth (who I think is a legitimately good character now), but the best thing about ike for me is that he can guard the ledge easily without putting himself in danger.

Whenever you send someone offstage and you know they'll have to sweetspot the ledge, just charge an eruption by the ledge and time it for that 1 frame vulnerability. If you practice a little bit you'll be hitting shiek consistently out of her up b. Eruption covers a wide area even above ike too so it's not easy to avoid. Running offstage double jumping back and using dair can work too, it's a bit more risky (not much since you'll just be hit towards the stage in an edgeguard situation), but you don't have as much lag afterwards if you miss.

forward throw and back throw are both great to put ppl in bad spots offstage btw. Up air frame traps well to up tilt or jab. Jab should be your gtfo move here, since it's the fastest to come out. Ike does have amazing range though and his nair is awesome to start combos.

I don't know how you think he has a good recovery though, I mean it's alright but if you mess up a bit you're done. The good thing about it is if you're in range for aether you shouldn't be getting edgeguarded too hard.

edit: something I just noticed on battlefield, you can't jump into the highest platfrom from the lower ones with your normal jump, but if you run off the platform and double jump asap you'll be able to reach the highest one. Kinda interesting that his double jump goes higher than his normal jump.

I remember a long time ago we were discussing the possibility of experimenting with custom stages. I decided to try and normalize the platform layouts on Battlefield to where most characters could reach them with a single full jump, but certain characters like Ganon still couldn't make it. Not to mention the obnoxious clipping issues characters like Bowser, DDD, and Ganon go through when the platforms are that low.

Did anyone else try out anything and see if there could be any benefit to SLHG in general?
This is something that interests me. I think this is the next big issue for slhg from a ruleset point of view. I honestly think battlefield has good height on its platforms, if anything I think you could lower the top platform a bit to prevent some characters from getting camped there but nothing much.

Smashville and T&C are the ones where the platforms could be lowered to make up for the gavity, since a lot of characters can't reach those with one jump.
 
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Hyper_Kirby

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Sort of random, but where else would I ask?
I'm leaning toward maining :4myfriends: in SLHG, does anyone know any true setups he has in SLHG?

Grab setups, frame traps etc. Things he gains that are exclusive to SLHG..


The more I mess with him, it's obvious that this character can bulldoze over other characters. He has speed, setups, an amazing recovery, and not to mention a counter (which is exceedingly useful in SLHG)
I do know that up throw foward air is a good kill setup with Ike. Though that works on fast fallers in vanilla. Same with his foward and back throw tech chases. Now that you think of it, Ike gains no exclusive combos/setups. However his already know combos/setups are better used and very optimal in game.
 

ZADD

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Now that you think of it, Ike gains no exclusive combos/setups. However his already know combos/setups are better used and very optimal in game.
Good point, I guess it's something that'l take some experimenting (any differences at least). Iv thought about making a video detailing any SLHG specific setups for Falco; I suppose i could do the same for Ike. I'm also interested in what new footstool capabilities Ike might have up his sleeve due to the heavy gravity and the reduced knockback.

For instance: D-tilt > Footstool > D-air etc...

On that note, has anyone had any success learning/using footstool setups? I would assume they are much much easier in SLHG, with many more characters having reliable footstool combos. That (combined with tech chasing) is what i believe can truly set SLHG play apart from Vanilla from a competitive perspective.
 
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DNeon

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I've been out of this for a while. Trying to catch up with all that's happened. Super sad to see online go (though I could never use it anyway). Any big news about people moving around with their buffs/nerfs? Is my Zelda the terror I dream her to be with a new Phantom and small frame buffs?
 
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Hyper_Kirby

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I've been out of this for a while. Trying to catch up with all that's happened. Super sad to see online go (though I could never use it anyway). Any big news about people moving around with their buffs/nerfs? Is my Zelda the terror I dream her to be with a new Phantom and small frame buffs?
She has a chain grab on most characters by combining her down throw and SH fast fall nair. It won't work if you hit rage. (The nair hitboxes will send them into tumble)
 

(Buddha)

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Ok since this is a major development I'm tagging everyone who ever showed interest. We can play online now, organizing a tournament with our SLHG bros is inside the realm of possibility, and about ****ing time too.

@blargh257 @Dr. Bran @VeggieSteel @Zodiacx10 @Licensed Gonad Inspector @xHackAttackx @PfantzyPantz @micstar615 @HalfBakedHarry @GunBlaze @zekrom3112 @Xinc @Jugoken @Galespark @ SaturnFrost SaturnFrost @Diabolical @Djent @SuaveChaser @Smiles @GameWatching @Kwam$tack$ @Phoenix502 @RanserSSF4 @KayJay @Shog @Balgorxz @MajorMajora @moreside @SAHunterMech @CrusaderVX @ ZADD ZADD @Burnsy @B.A.M. @Dreamaholic @Artemis @RascalTheCharizard @Donkeybutter @Wintropy @ItalianBaptist @L9999 @Captain Norris @W.A.C. @Gamebox_64 @moofpi @Earthboundy @kyoskue @AceStarThe3rd @Cornstalk @xkv @Pwii

that was more than I thought lol.

Ok another question, do you think I should update the OP with a player list so people can PM each other with match requests or even putting NNID's next to the names? If there are enough takers I'll update it with a SLHG bro list.
I have not watched all the vids but I see 1 problem. People are not going of stage to much. It is because it would take to much time until they fall?
 

ArtfulHobbes

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I have not watched all the vids but I see 1 problem. People are not going of stage to much. It is because it would take to much time until they fall?
Thats because people are too scared of dying. It's risky to go off stage but in this mode 1 hit offstage is all it takes to gimp many characters. I try as much as I can in some of my videos to go offstage for gimps so I can see what certain characters can and cannot do. It also depends on the character. Fox for example had nothing offstage until the buff to shine spike.
 
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ZADD

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I need moon launcher also? Ill try to find a good build.
Moon Launcher makes SLHG seem normal, and not overly-heavy.

Use Smooth Lander Brawn Badge, Moon Launcher Protection Badge, and Item Hitter Agility badge. They're all challenge board rewards.
 

One Handed Sword

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Moon Launcher makes SLHG seem normal, and not overly-heavy.

Use Smooth Lander Brawn Badge, Moon Launcher Protection Badge, and Item Hitter Agility badge. They're all challenge board rewards.
Nah dw I think I have stuff to make the most balanced stuff possible
 

Muro

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Nah dw I think I have stuff to make the most balanced stuff possible
But that build already is the most balanced (assuming you want close to 0/0/0).

Quote from the OP:
Code:
Badge Name                            Stats         Challenge
Smooth Lander Brawn Badge          +36a/-35d/0s        A7
Moon Launcher Protection Badge     0a/+37d/-30s        B2
Item Hitter Agility Badge          -40a/0d/+33s        B6
Total:                             -4a/+2d/+3s
all stats have differences < 5, which means the stats' effects aren't felt in game, can't get any more balanced than that. They are also a lot easier to get than grinding for badges, you just unlock challenges A7, B2 and B6 and you've got equipable badges for every character.
 

ZADD

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I'd rather have a universal setup, where everyone can practice/play with the same engine with no issues. 1 or 2 stat difference doesn't even factor into gameplay, so perfect stats wouldn't change anything. Other than missing out on moon launcher which is half the reason SLHG feels so smooth. (no pun intended)
all stats have differences < 5, which means the stats' effects aren't felt in game, can't get any more balanced than that.
If only we could replace Item Hitter with Shield Degenerator or something. :p oh well
 
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One Handed Sword

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But that build already is the most balanced (assuming you want close to 0/0/0).

Quote from the OP:
Code:
Badge Name                            Stats         Challenge
Smooth Lander Brawn Badge          +36a/-35d/0s        A7
Moon Launcher Protection Badge     0a/+37d/-30s        B2
Item Hitter Agility Badge          -40a/0d/+33s        B6
Total:                             -4a/+2d/+3s
all stats have differences < 5, which means the stats' effects aren't felt in game, can't get any more balanced than that. They are also a lot easier to get than grinding for badges, you just unlock challenges A7, B2 and B6 and you've got equipable badges for every character.
Ahhh I see. Thanks for that info.
 

TheDerp

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I haven't got an Amiibo, but if any of you guys have, you should make it play with SLHG, just make another Profile, unlock SL ML and IT on it, give them to the Amiibo and go back to your own Profile, I don't know if that works though.
I'm actually kind of interested in what an Amiibo would do on SLHG..
 

ArtfulHobbes

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Heres a match I had with one of our best Smash 4 players. He really wanted to see what Little Mac was like here and it is terrifying...

And this match. This was his first time playing SLHG and he got really salty when I showed him what was up.
 
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ZADD

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Here's a more educated rendition of SLHG's tier list (1-10), taking into account buffs and changes. All of this is my opinion of course, but I've passed the 7777 matches mark after resetting my console to unlock SLHG, and every match has been SLHG since.
  1. :4sheik:Not much to say. She has flawless frame data, kill setups, and a versatile projectile. Sheik sets the bar for the top-tiers.
2.:4zss:
Has every capability of Sheik, with the absence of a strong neutral presence. Her punish game is off the charts tho! She has stun gun infinites, down-throw true combos into Up-B, and her down-b shuts down almost every recovery!
3.:4marth:
Marth is truly amazing, he encompasses what amazing things SLHG can do for characters. F-air is now 95% safe, he can U-til/U-air juggle every character in the cast, and he can even string it off-stage into a D-air or tipper! This version may not be as safe as Melee, but IMO it is much more deadly!
4.:4pikachu:
Best mobility in the cast, period. Best off-stage game, with an incredible on-stage presence as well. No real weakness makes Pikachu #4.
5.:4fox:
Fox can string any move into any other move. He has the strongest offensive pressure by a long shot, but he can easily be juggled/punished if he overextends. In the right hands however, he can be truly untouchable.
6.:rosalina:
Strongest zoning/spacing game without a doubt. She can completely shut you out with safe Jabs, N-airs, or B-airs. Unfortunately, Luma is a bit more vulnerable with Heavy Gravity, and thus she is bumped down 2-3 spots from Vanilla.
7. :4luigi:
Similar to Fox that he can string any move into any move, but with a far worse recovery. Luigi easily zone with fireballs, but whiffing a grab usually means death. Requires a far-more calculated approach compared to Vanilla, but stringing together aerials is easier than ever.
8. :4myfriends:
Ike is unbelievably safe for how dangerous he is. Out of nowhere he can string a combo from D-tilt, and end it with a F-air or B-air to finish the stock! Overall, he is a very threatening presence with a lot of options to **** your **** up.
9.:4yoshi:
Yoshi can rack up % ridiculously quickly, and pretty safely too. His recovery is very hard to punish with Heavy Gravity, and his eggs set up perfectly for a followup.
10.:4metaknight:
Has incredible stage control with a safe/destructive N-air. F-tilt can send opponents into an edge-guard situation, in which Meta-Knight can easily captitalize. D-throw combos well into high %'s, and can even be strung into an Up-B for the kill.​
 
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cerealkiller

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Very cool and detailed list @ ZADD ZADD . May I ask why you placed Pikachu after Marth? Does he have better overall match-ups? At first sight I’d say that while both have good offenses and on-stage mobility Pikachu has ridiculous off-stage game (both in the recovery and gimp departments). I don’t know SLHG Zero Suit Samus that well but I wonder if Pikachu shouldn’t deserve the 2nd place actually.

Would love to see other people’s lists also!
 

Muro

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eh dunno if i agree with marth, ike and mk. I can see one of them cracking top 10 but not all 3.

Where is mario? SLHG was made for mario, he's the only character with a purely horizontal kb move (d-smash) which also has an insane edgeguard game (cape, firebal, FLUDD, bair, you name it). Also one to benefit more from the moon launcher effect seeing as his up-smash up air and up tilt are all stellar. His combo game is up there too.

The only thing I see where he's only "good" is his recovery, because his up-b doesn't go very far but even then he's still floaty as hell. Easily top 5 character imo.

There's also ness/c. falcon which are probably top 10 too (more ness than the captain). And then the borderline characters like Roy, Lucas, Greninja, Lucario and diddy (which we don't know yet how much he drops) etc, competition for top 10 is fierce.

More or less agree with everything else even if I'd switch a couple of placements around.
 
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ZADD

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Very cool and detailed list @ ZADD ZADD . May I ask why you placed Pikachu after Marth?
Pikachu is amazing, being #4 out 50ish characters is no small feat. The problem I see for Pikachu is his lack of reliable kill setups, although he is more than capable of pulling some off. Getting a jab reset on a seasoned opponent requires a footstool, otherwise they'll tech/escape every setup. Marth on the other hand can set up a tipper F-smash from a grab at 0% (that's terrifying). Marth also has a very forgiving recovery, and he has no issues going off-stage to gimp (better, but not safer than pikachu imo). All in all, Marth can literally 0-death better than any other character in SLHG, fast-fallers are completely doomed against him.
Here's a video @ ArtfulHobbes ArtfulHobbes posted a while back. Trust me, Marth can be optimized to be #3, or even #2...
Where is mario? SLHG was made for mario, he's the only character with a purely horizontal kb move (d-smash) which also has an insane edgeguard game (cape, firebal, FLUDD, bair, you name it). Also one to benefit more from the moon launcher effect seeing as his up-smash up air and up tilt are all stellar. His combo game is up there too.
If i were to continue this list, I'd put Mario at #11. Meta Knight is overall a stronger character than Mario in SLHG, even though Mario might be more accessible. Truth is, Mario doesn't have very strong setups, and he is a lot more vulnerable off-stage than say Luigi, or even Doc with his mashed Down-B. His combo game is very impressive sure, but 9/10 kills for Mario come from a strong read. (As opposed to Doc, who can literally D-throw > F-air for a kill easily). Mario can rack up %, but he struggles (more than the top-tiers) to actually secure a kill.

Edit: I guess I'll explain Ike, since I've been messing with him. Ike's true power comes from his ability to force your opponent into a 50/50 (similar to SLHG Palutena, but with much deadlier results). D-throw at low %'s either strings into U-air > U-smash if you DI inward, or N-air > (pivot) B-air if you DI away. At higher %'s, Ike forces the opponent to play ballsy, in which they can overextend and eat a counter or B-air to the face. Ike is a great fundamentals-based character with a powerful tool-set, have caution when you fight him or you will lose.
 
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cerealkiller

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I know how good Marth is, I play him in SLHG :)
Maybe I'm just traumatized by the Marth-Pikachu matchup which for me is unwinnable. And maybe against the rest of the cast Marth may have more positive matchups than Pika.
 

ZADD

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This part of the list is a bit less important, and everything after is even less significant. But here is my rendition of B-tiers (11-20) with as much explanation as I can. I won't go further, but these are characters that are held back by 1 or 2 issues.

11.:4mario:See above. "Mario can rack up %, but he struggles (more than the top-tiers) to actually secure a kill."
12.
:4palutena:Palutena is the DI queen. If you don't know how to DI properly when facing her, you will definitely lose. D-throw can vortex until ~60%, and at higher %'s it can true combo into U-smash for a godlike setup.haha Her weakness is that she lacks a strong combo breaker, and can be combo fodder for a lot of the top-tiers. Still, she is a huge threat.
13.:4ness:Ness can definitely kill, but he lacks a solid approach option. Side-B has a lot of potential to set up, but it is easily spotted and punished. Even with less lag on aerials, his F-air and B-air are NOT safe in neutral. Ness needs a huge read to break the neutral, but with one, he can tear an opponent down with relative ease.
14.:4peach:Peach is a very grounded fighter, she loves to put the opponent above her and react. Turnips have more tact now that HG limits overall movement capabilities. D-throw combos into F-tilt at low %'s, which can then be followed by a B-air, N-air, or even F-air if you're quick enough. Very defensive, but at the same time she is very hard to breach. (She can float cancel too)
15.:4tlink:Toon Link is one of the only characters that can cover the whole stage with hitboxes at the same time. His aerials are extremely safe (especially N-air, which can trip). Boomerang can even combo into F-air as well as bombs, but landing a projectile on a quick opponent can be difficult. Has some amazing match-ups, but pretty horrible ones at the same time.
16.:4mewtwo:Mewtwo is interesting to me, because he is now riskier than ever. He is easily combo'd, and his neutral game is par at best. However, Mewtwo is right behind Marth in 0-Death capability, all it takes is a grab. U-tilt or D-tilt can set up for a FF N-air, which can lead to another grab. His N-air is the best off-stage move period, especially if you rise it to deny someone the ledge. (also N-air can spike fast-fallers btw, its disgusting...)
17.:4falco:I absolutely love Falco (he's my main), but he has some glaring flaws in SLHG that hold him back in the tiers. This boy has more setups than anyone I'm pretty sure. D-throw > D-air > U-tilt > U-smash > B-air, D-tilt > D-air (off-stage), U-throw > D-air, and U-throw > U-air > D-air. His flaw is his capability to drop setups. If an opponent wiggles out of his combos at high %'s, Falco really struggles to finish his opponent off...
18. :4drmario:Doc has some the best offensive neutral tools in the game (better than Mario). Once he gets his hands on you, be prepared to eat a long and impressive combo with lots of pain. The only way to beat a Doc is to simply outplay him in neutral, then capitalize on his weak defensive tools. Doc has a lot more going for him offensively when compared to Mario, but a lot less defensively too. (ie. Risky)
19. :4villager:Villager can freely zone and punish, without fear of being zoned himself. His off-stage game is superb, all it takes is a F-air or N-air off-stage to take a stock. Unfortunately, he requires quite a bit of setup and prediction to be optimized, and that can become increasingly difficult against Sheik, Fox, Mario etc.
20.:4greninja:Greninja has unlimited potential, but his difficulty of play is the only thing holding him back. His movements need to be tight, his aerials need to be placed correctly, and he needs to be mentally composed in order to maintain pressure. He can lose his combo very easily with a wrong input, but if done with extreme precision, he can 0-death in the flashiest way possible.

Here's a visual, again this is all my impression after a lot of games. http://i.imgur.com/vcfujNs.jpg
 
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ArtfulHobbes

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Interesting list there @ ZADD ZADD . Not sure if I agree with all of it but the top tier characters I believe are set ion stone now. It's your bottom 4 I don't agree with. Captain Falcon is absolutely a top 15 at least character and I personally would put him in the top 10. I would also lower Luigi because he can get gimped easy to #10. Bump Mario into top 10, and then probably keep Yoshi the same.

Also I really don't know what you see in Mewtwo. I think he's still among the worst of the bunch even in this mode. He struggles so hard to start any comboes its pretty sad. Maybe I need to play him more but I don't think Mewtwo is that good. Also I would move Lucina, Ike, and Roy to the top 15. All 3 are good in their own right and combo in different ways.
 
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