Smashchu's Roster Analysis

[buirac]

You misunderstood me. I don't think Wolf deserves Krystal's spot. What I was trying to do was justify Krystal's popularity in a theorical way. Then you gave lots of good reasons because of which she shouldn't be as popular as him. Then we saw in the most-interested-in-favoring-Wolf poll that Krystal was at least 3 times more popular. Importance in the series is not as objective nor powerful as Popularity, I think we can agree on that. We already agreed on that at least Krystal's and Wolf potential moveset are equally profitable (At Least). So, unless you've got some other factor, Krystal is prioritary. Besides, I don't think there will be much room for Starfox slots in the future.

I'm not denying that Mother's second character concept has its good points. You say it was liked by developers, recently dead saga can be positive too and that it was really popular. And I think everything is true. But the fact is there are more popular alternatives (Geno, Ridley, Takamaru [Sakurai's Convinient Poll]), promoting new international ongoing series is the best for publicity and long-time dead sagas produce more nostalgia if they are revived. I'm not saying he doesn't fit. What I mean is Hans, Ridley and even Takamaru fit better. Could you argument how is better for Smash fans to get him before all this three?

 

[FlareHabanero]

By the way, the "poll" you listed wasn't even an actual poll. It was the number of times Sakurai received a letter for particular characters, hence why the numbers are abnormally low. The actually poll however is much more vague, with the only detail we know being that Sonic dominated it.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Sure I can
-Ridley, while nice, could be held off. I don't have much of an argument for this one because both are worthy for their reasons and merits, so you got me there.
-Takamaru is a retro character (Though more appearences now) who's Japan-Only and while retro's are nice, we already have and had Pit when that was done polling.
-As much as I love Geno, hi square. That on it's own is something.
-I have no idea what you're talking about with Hans

Okay, now that that's out of the way, yeah. I think we pretty much agree with each other at this point. I just feel like I've gone over Lucas/Wolf so many times before Brawl, during Brawl, and then after Brawl so I'll just leave it at that, and of course, my character stance on the direction of the roster this time.

By the way, the "poll" you listed wasn't even an actual poll. It was the number of times Sakurai received a letter for particular characters, hence why the numbers are abnormally low. The actually poll however is much more vague, with the only detail we know being that Sonic dominated it.

Are you talking about the NSider poll? Because I know various stuff from that considering I knew some of the NOA's. There's not too much that's interesting, though, and a good portion of the characters did make it into the game whether Playable, Boss, Assist Trophy, or Pokeball, while the rest haven't been ruled out by a long shot.

Honestly, it's probably the most major poll, but there's still not much to go off of it.

Also dominated is an understatement. The only character that came even close was Ridley.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I was talking about this one, the "poll" buirac posted.

King Dedede(5) - CONFIRMED!
Diddy Kong(4) - CONFIRMED!
Geno(4)
Ike(4) - CONFIRMED!
Ridley(4)
Captain Olimar & Pikmin(3) - CONFIRMED!
Krystal(3)
Takamaru(3)
Windwaker Link(3)
Animal Crossing MC(2) - in BG of Smashville stage
Claus(2)
Demiru(2)
Isaac(2)
Jeff(2)
Kawasima(2)
King K.Rool(2)
Lip(2)
Lucas(2) - CONFIRMED!
Mega Man(2)
Oguma(2)
Ouendan(2)
Sukapon(2)

Again, that wasn't the actual poll, but the number of letters Sakurai received regarding to each character. If it was an actual poll, the numbers would be much greater, at least in the double digits. There was a legit poll made, but again we don't know much about the results of that poll aside from Sonic hauling some major ass.

 

[buirac]

I was talking about this one, the "poll" buirac posted.

King Dedede(5) - CONFIRMED!
Diddy Kong(4) - CONFIRMED!
Geno(4)
Ike(4) - CONFIRMED!
Ridley(4)
Captain Olimar & Pikmin(3) - CONFIRMED!
Krystal(3)
Takamaru(3)
Windwaker Link(3)
Animal Crossing MC(2) - in BG of Smashville stage
Claus(2)
Demiru(2)
Isaac(2)
Jeff(2)
Kawasima(2)
King K.Rool(2)
Lip(2)
Lucas(2) - CONFIRMED!
Mega Man(2)
Oguma(2)
Ouendan(2)
Sukapon(2)

Again, that wasn't the actual poll, but the number of letters Sakurai received regarding to each character. If it was an actual poll, the numbers would be much greater, at least in the double digits. There was a legit poll made, but again we don't know much about the results of that poll aside from Sonic hauling some major ***.

This is a graduation of popularity acknowledged by Sakurai, I already knew it was a ranking. The value it has is in the fact that he admits some of his choices weren't that popular (at least).

Hans = Isaac

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I explained in the post that the list wasn't the complete poll, but if you want to ignore my points, go ahead.

 

[Bajef8]

Well this argument's been going on for awhile. buirac, you've been on the forums since Sunday. I've been lurking since 2006 or so. I was around pre-Brawl. Lucas, was one of the most wanted characters on this site and in many numerous "educated" Smash discussions. Hell, even Wolf had strong support. You bashing Wolf fr being a floating head is completely nonsensical. when Smash 64 came out, Fox was a floating head...still made a great move set for him., and the same happened with Wolf. Saying Lucas was a completely random clone addition is ignorance at its finest. Also, tell me, you say he was added because HAL made him, yes? Then why did it take 3 games into the series for Sakurai to add 2 big characters from his OWN franchise? sakurai's a modest man, let's not make such foolish claims.

 

[bobadz]

Wow this thread is way off topic.


But it's hilarious.

I might just split a seem now if I don't die laughing first!

 

[Bajef8]

I really don't know what happened. I was arguing about the Smashchu Criteria in relation to Pokemon characters a couple days ago, and I came back to this lol.

 

[bobadz]

How does Smashchu's roster equal R.O.B and Lucas bashing?

 

[buirac]

I remind you I discussed SmashChu's criterias by saying they were inconstant, relative, changeable. I said I wouldn't want Brawl's criteria to repeat because it led to objective mistakes (it was against common good). Then the storm started.

Swamp, you've lost every single point. Even the empirical little proof you gave is against you. Though I must admit The Third Koopa had good points about theorical "Wolf over Krystal"s popular issues.

Falkoopa agreed Brawl's roster wasn't about "common good".

The Third Koopa said we agreed in some clue points.

Others, I'm not discussing this again until you post something new. I don't think you've read my theory, nor the Overall of Smashboard Answers. By the way it's true I bashed Wolf (not R.O.B., not Lucas - take the dictionary), but I've already acknowledged The Third Koopa was right about my argument's flaws on "Wolf over Krystal".

 

[FalKoopa]

Falkoopa agreed Brawl's roster wasn't about "common good".

Wait a minute. When did I say that?

 

[buirac]

I don't really think I need any other argument, you know. The "Overall" argument is the one the one that matters the most. You would want the game to please a majority of the fanbase, not a select few.

Yes, over time, alternatives would have been loved too. Despite an initial ****storm, people would soon grow to love them. So why have YOU not grown to love them yet?

In any case, The argument has been going on more than a day now, so I'll drop it now. I'm tired.

What did you mean?

 

[FalKoopa]

I guess you misunderstood my point.

I wanted to say that the number of people who were happy with the inclusion of Lucas, R.O.B and Wolf was larger than the number of who were disappointed. Krystal's fanbase was actually smaller than Wolf's, but it was much more rabid and loud, which created an illusion that that it was large. Wolf's fanbase was not vocal because whenever they came out to support Wolf, the Krystal fans would attack them.

On the 2nd point, you initially said that if Krystal had got in instead of Wolf, as time passed, people would soon have accepted her. That much is true. Now, since Wolf and Lucas have got in, why haven't YOU accepted them yet? I'm just applying the hypothetical situation on you.

tl;dr Inclusion of Lucas, R.O.B and Wolf did more good than bad.

 

[buirac]

Every character that gets in Smash is exposed to being accepted.

My statement is Lucas/R.O.B./"WolfoverKrystal" was potentially more disappointing and less acceptable than alternatives. Of course they were accepted, liked and even loved, but we have reasons to believe another trio would have been more accepted, liked and even loved.

How can you proof Wolf's fanbase was larger than Krystal's if Krystal fanbase was louder? The only material things I've got to proof Krystal's overpopularity are Sakurai's acknowledgement of the fact and 4th's desire for Krystal (even if a relatively small saga like Starfox ends getting 4 slots in the roster). I think this proof is more powerful than the theorical justification for Wolf's popularity The Third Koopa stated (which was at the same time more powerful than theorical reasons in favor of Krystal). But anyone has anything tangible in favor of Wolf and even you recognized Krystal's request was louder.

 

[FalKoopa]

Look, I wasn't a part of the pre-Brawl speculation. So whatever I know is based on talking to users like ChronoBound. Better ask him.

My statement is Lucas/R.O.B./"WolfoverKrystal" was potentially more disappointing and less acceptable than alternatives. Of course they were accepted, liked and even loved, but we have reasons to believe another trio would have been more accepted, liked and even loved.

How can you proof Wolf's fanbase was larger than Krystal's if Krystal fanbase was louder? The only material things I've got to proof Krystal's overpopularity are Sakurai's acknowledgement of the fact and 4th's desire for Krystal (even if a relatively small saga like Starfox ends getting 4 slots in the roster). I think this proof is more powerful than the theorical justification for Wolf's popularity The Third Koopa stated (which was at the same time more powerful than theorical reasons in favor of Krystal). But anyone has anything tangible in favor of Wolf and even you recognized Krystal's request was louder.

Sakurai's acknowledgement of Krystal's popularity? Source?
Also, do give the reasons as to why Krystal over Wolf would lead to more disappointment.

Ask around. See how many actually wanted Krystal over Wolf... And how many were disappointed with Lucas....

I won't continue the argument unless you atleast provide a source on Sakurai's acknowledgement. And for that matter, the one you posted is not a poll.

Oh, one more point. Popularity is not the only reason why a character gets in. Series importance plays a big part. Wolf is more important than Krystal.

As for the fanbase being louder, it came at a point too late for her inclusion in the game.

I'll give a source on Wolf's popularity.
smashboards.com/threads/324324/page-18

Scroll down a bit. Look at the poll results.
Wolf - 436
Krystal - 236

Also don't argue that Wolf has the upper hand simply because of getting in. Look at Lucario.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Anybody thought about taking this to another thread?

 

[buirac]

Look, I wasn't a part of the pre-Brawl speculation. So whatever I know is based on talking to users like ChronoBound. Better ask him.
Sakurai's acknowledgement of Krystal's popularity? Source?
Also, do give the reasons as to why Krystal over Wolf would lead to more disappointment.

Ask around. See how many actually wanted Krystal over Wolf... And how many were disappointed with Lucas....

I won't continue the argument unless you atleast provide a source on Sakurai's acknowledgement. And for that matter, the one you posted is not a poll. I know it was not a poll, it's a ranking directly extracted from Sakurai's acknowledged request proportions. I won't look for the link, it's stated in this same community, if the community doesn't lie, it's the most near to Nintendo it can be.

Oh, one more point. Popularity is not the only reason why a character gets in. Series importance plays a big part. Wolf is more important than Krystal. I'm not interested in having this conversation yet another time, read my previous posts if you want.

As for the fanbase being louder, it came at a point too late for her inclusion in the game. If I tell you I believe there is a religion against R.O.B. inclusion to prove my points will you believe me?

I'll give a source on Wolf's popularity.
smashboards.com/threads/324324/page-18

Scroll down a bit. Look at the poll results.
Wolf - 436
Krystal - 236

Also don't argue that Wolf has the upper hand simply because of getting in. Look at Lucario. This only proves there is a feeling Pokémon should be regenerated each generation. Even the creator of the poll came to this thread to say the results couldn't favor Wolf.

Anybody thought about taking this to another thread?

There is no need to. I think we got pretty much stuck from the Overall point. No one is much interested in following the subject, not even Falkoopa, since he doesn't really care what I have to say. "Oh, one more point. Popularity is not the only reason why a character gets in. Series importance plays a big part. Wolf is more important than Krystal." proves it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Swamp, you've lost every single point. Even the empirical little proof you gave is against you. Though I must admit The Third Koopa had good points about theorical "Wolf over Krystal"s popular issues.
\

Oh tell me how I lost.

All I see is proof that Lucas was a popular request.

I mean, he got a fair amount of fan letters according to the proof I gave. You pick and take points you like and ignore everything else. You've done it with Falkoopa, Hero_42, thirdkoopa and me.

Regardless, if we want to continue this discussion, we should continue it elsewhere. We should probably give Smashchu his thread back.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I know for the official poll there was the one done by NSider so yeah, that's probably the one a few of you guys are referencing to Sonic on. If you guys want to continue it, we should probably just start a private message with a few of us since we could go on all day.

I'll comment on SmashChu's roster soon but yeah, better to just continue this over PM's.

 

[FalKoopa]

I have no further desire to continue the argument. (>_<)

 

[---]

If you guys are going to continue this argument I would suggest taking it here.

Not really sure about all the points but seeing as this has gone on for way too long I may join in to help end this if need be.

 

[Deleted member]

Wolf was the better choice and still continues to be the better choice.
[/argument]

Now to wait until SmashChu comes back to reclaim his thread.

 

[volbound1700]

LOL Smash Chu had a great thread until he listed his picks for Smash 4. Total Junk. I doubt a Nintendo Direct Character will be added. No creativity in the picks, just the useless favorites from this board. No third party, yeah that is original. Sure they are going to cut two of the most popular characters from the last game (Sonic and Snake). Bringing in a third party company to develop destroys the essence that it is just a Nintendo only game.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I doubt a Nintendo Direct Character will be added.

There isn't even a Nintendo Direct character, unless you count Iwata.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

There isn't even a Nintendo Direct character, unless you count Iwata.

IWATA FOR SMASH!!!!

 

[volbound1700]

Rollin Dillon whatever. No one knows who he is and there is no evidence Sakurai knows who he is. Also Sakurai practically confirmed Megaman when he said there was a possibility a Capcom character will be in the next game so if you think third party characters are being cut you are bonkers.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Rollin Dillon whatever.

Dillon is not a Nintendo Direct character though. He's a character that comes from the Dillon Rolling Western games for the eShop, but he's not a character from Nintendo Direct. Again, there isn't a Nintendo Direct character aside from Iwata.

 

[volbound1700]

eShop, whatever. You knew what I meant. I just don't see eshop getting any rep in Smash because nobody even knows about it.

Also as I pointed out, Sakurai's comments about Third Parties (and a Capcom character) fly in the face of anything that Smashchu wrote.

Megaman has better chances than most first party as Sakurai has at least mentioned something about his possibility (or who knows maybe Sakurai was talking about Amaterasu )

 

[Frostwraith]

eShop, whatever. You knew what I meant. I just don't see eshop getting any rep in Smash because nobody even knows about it.

Generalization. Or am I a nobody?

Also as I pointed out, Sakurai's comments about Third Parties (and a Capcom character) fly in the face of anything that Smashchu wrote.

Sakurai's comments on a Capcom character doesn't make Mega Man or any other Capcom character as granted. He merely considered the possibility.

 

[AnOkayDM]

There isn't even a Nintendo Direct character, unless you count Iwata.

Non-Specific Action Figure.

eShop, whatever. You knew what I meant. I just don't see eshop getting any rep in Smash because nobody even knows about it.

Lots of people do though. eShop games sell pretty well. Dillon has a decent shot, especially since he's from one of the few new Nintendo IPs created since Brawl.

Megaman has better chances than most first party as Sakurai has at least mentioned something about his possibility (or who knows maybe Sakurai was talking about Amaterasu )

Nope. No third-party character has a better chance than most first-party ones. I agree that third-parties are likely to return and Mega Man will probably be among them, but he's not more important than Ridley or K. Rool or other popular and influential Nintendo characters. Just because Sakurai said something doesn't confirm the character will be in. He also said Ridley could be in if they worked at it, but that's hardly a confirmation. Third-party characters are likely close to, if not, the last characters chosen.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Non-Specific Action Figure.

That's still not a Nintendo Direct character.

 

[AnOkayDM]

That's still not a Nintendo Direct character.

Yes it is. It came from the Nintendo Direct before E3 2012.

 

[buirac]

What's the matter with you, guys? Suddenly Volbound has become the new buirac, do you have to come to anyone who doesn't think like you like a hungry swarm?

By the way, another point against SmashChu is Sakurai said we probably reached the roster limit. I haven't found it in English, but here it is in Spanish: http://www.vandal.net/noticia/69996/super-smash-bros-no-aumentara-mucho-su-plantilla/

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

What's the matter with you, guys? Suddenly Volbound has become the new buirac, do you have to come to anyone who doesn't think like you like a hungry swarm?

By the way, another point against SmashChu is Sakurai said we probably reached the roster limit. I haven't found it in English, but here it is in Spanish: http://www.vandal.net/noticia/69996/super-smash-bros-no-aumentara-mucho-su-plantilla/

So what's your point on the "roster limit"? All Sakurai means on that is that he won't be adding as many characters this time as he has in the past.

If you think he isn't going to add anymore characters, then you will likely be mistaken. Keeping the roster at 35 would be a terrible marketing technique, and would likely ruin the roster.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

What's the matter with you, guys? Suddenly Volbound has become the new buirac, do you have to come to anyone who doesn't think like you like a hungry swarm?

By the way, another point against SmashChu is Sakurai said we probably reached the roster limit. I haven't found it in English, but here it is in Spanish: http://www.vandal.net/noticia/69996/super-smash-bros-no-aumentara-mucho-su-plantilla/

I don't really see the article having any source, neither do I read them stating that they've had an interview with Sakurai (though Google Translate could have messed that up.)

It also seems very suspicious that Sakurai hasn't said anything about having reached the roster limit in any other interviews, he has only spoken of adding less newcomers than usual. If anything the Spanish version of the original article seems to be blowing things way out of proportions. Even if they didn't blow things out of proportions I highly doubt that news this big would exclusively be in a Spanish article, and not an English or Japanese one.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Again, it's not that he's limiting newcomers, but more like he wants to do more then just simply expand on what has been done in Brawl. In other words, adding more stages and characters is not good enough.

 

[buirac]

So what's your point on the "roster limit"? All Sakurai means on that is that he won't be adding as many characters this time as he has in the past.

If you think he isn't going to add anymore characters, then you will likely be mistaken. Keeping the roster at 35 would be a terrible marketing technique, and would likely ruin the roster.

Not only Smashcu's newcomers are the same number of inclusions Melee and Brawl had but he says some excluded characters will come back.

The only thing Sakurai could mean by what he said (if he said it) is that there will be the same number of exclusions and inclusions (I'm sure there will be some margin). I think some of the excluded could appear as Skins (just like Wario's).

Also, if no exclusions were to be made and only 5 new characters were added, I would be very pleased if they were (more or less) the ones you've got as signature (but MEWTWO in eclair mode).

 

[FalKoopa]

Also, if no exclusions were to be made and only 5 new characters were added, I would be very pissed

That would be my reaction.

 

[AnOkayDM]

The only thing Sakurai could mean by what he said (if he said it) is that there will be the same number of exclusions and inclusions (I'm sure there will be some margin). I think some of the excluded could appear as Skins (just like Wario's).

Find an English source, and a trustworthy one at that, and we'll talk.

I don't agree with a lot of SmashChu's roster, but I think there will be around the same amount of newcomers, I think there will be returnees, and I think there will be fewer if any cuts.

Sakurai hasn't said a thing about no new characters; he knows that would be suicide.