Smashchu's Roster Analysis

[AnOkayDM]

R.O.B. didn't save gaming industry, saying it did is showing ignorance.

He did.

Do some ****ing research.

 

[FalKoopa]

R.O.B. didn't save gaming industry, saying it did is showing ignorance.

This is a fact. It's you who is being ignorant, I'm sorry to say. Do some research.

R.O.B. was released with the intention of portraying the Nintendo Entertainment System as something novel in order to alleviate retail fears following the video game crash of 1983.

At first I thought the whole Mother series was only Japanese, but people were advocating for Lucas so hard I realized he had to be at least worldwide.

When I spoke about "common good" I was refering to Japanese selfishness with their roster choice. They only represent 21% of Smash. I'm not even judging this fact. It is objectively selfish and a bad idea economically speaking.

No. It's actually a good strategy. Look at Fire Emblem. It was unknown pre-Melee, but now it has grown so large that people are clamouring for four FE reps in Smash 4.

Maybe it's you Falkoopa, the one who should be educated. I mean, you haven't been much polite since I met you.

I don't remember when I exactly "met" you. Well, whatever, I'll tone it down a bit.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Give me something better than VGchartz and I will listen. Ask N3ON for her sources. They will be accurate.

R.O.B. didn't save gaming industry, saying it did is showing ignorance. You are denying historical fact. Why are you denying this? It's like saying man never landed on the moon. It is denying historical fact! If you believe that R.O.B. never saved the industry, explain why you think so.

At first I thought the whole Mother series was only Japanese, but people were advocating for Lucas so hard I realized he had to be at least worldwide. ... Do you know anything about Mother? Mother 1 and Mother 3 (Lucas' game) were Japan only. HOWEVER! Mother 2, under the name of Earthbound (Ness' game) was released internationally.

When I spoke about "common good" I was refering to Japanese selfishness with their roster choice. They only represent 21% of Smash. I'm not even judging this fact. It is objectively selfish and a bad idea economically speaking. ... Japan is the main demographic. The game is being made by Japanese people, for Japanese people and in Japan. We get games as a bonus. Do not act entitled. Besides, Marth, Lucas and Roy were all well received so there is no backlash for including Japan only character.

I'm kind of tired and I didn't count well the 3'6 milion (there's a coma). You must be REALLLLLLLLLLY tired.

Maybe it's you Falkoopa, the one who should be educated. I mean, you haven't been much polite since I met you. And from what he's seen, you don't seem very smart.

You're a troll. Aren't you?

 

[N3ON]

Well I've deduced that buirac is either trolling or incurably delusional. Either way, I'm out, have fun trying to knock some sense into him. And good luck.

 

[FalKoopa]

Oh, I forgot my most important point.

Japan only characters tend to be awesome.

Also, I see his arguments are directed primarily on Lucas and ROB. I should ask, on what grounds do you exempt Roy?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Oh, I forgot my most important point.

Japan only characters tend to be awesome.

Also, I see his arguments are directed primarily on Lucas and ROB. I should ask, on what grounds do you exempt Roy?

I'm more interested as to why he thought R.O.B. was Japan only.

Plus he argued that no one liked Wolf and Krystal should have gotten in not too long ago.

 

[Shorts]

I want Krystal, but I still like and want Wolf. (He's the only SF character who I play as)

Besides, it's obvious we're gettig all four in Smash4 :rollseyes:

 

[buirac]

Overall:

You justify Kirby's World ilicit affluence by saying it was restrainted at first. Saying it's worldwide as big as Metroid (even if more resources, hype and better critics are put in it). Saying that the fact Sakurai created it is not important.

You justify the Dumb Duo of Lucas and R.O.B. by saying: Lucas was in the polls (though I haven't seen that, but suspicious anticipative rosters with his abscence instead). R.O.B. saved gaming industry (though "most people" won't ever know, ****, he is like the Dark Knight!). Lucas was more popular than alternatives (¿?). Nintendo has the natural right to **** with 80% of its audience. That the fact that Hal created Lucas is not important. The fact that Lucas entrance enables Mother to be as represented as Metroid and DK is not important. The fact that Lucas is from a recent but dead franchise is not important (his case is like Fire Emblem's promotion, it's OK if his franchise is dead). R.O.B. is way more wellknown than G&W (despite the fact that the second sold x10 more than the first) because the first appeared on Mario Kart DS and the second didn't have a concrete name.

You justify Wolf was over Krystal by saying it is stated by the polls (but there are no links). And it's definetely not a (half)cloning issue. Of course, the fact that they appeared in the same number of games, the fact that Krystal was playable, more transcendent and, to sum up, more than a simple head on a side of the screen yelling at you, does not matter.

You think that I'm stupid because I don't believe that the silliest game i've ever seen saved the whole game industry from complete obliteration.

Thus, I must ask myself: is it me who is backwards or is it the world? Of course, I will always think that it is you, and so you will do with me. The reasons I can give to justify your insanity are: "you all are hardcore fanboys who won't admit a complaint against Nintendo's rosters" and "you are just North-American".

 

[Shorts]

Well, in his defense no polls are valid anymore because Wolf will OF COURSE that's true, he's been in Brawl. That's 11 million more games where he is playable than Krystal. Krystal is voted on one third of the time. And Wolf is voted on one half of the time.

Krystal's definitely one of the top ten most wanted newcomers for Smash4, love her or hate her, it's how it is.

 

[Neanderthal]

By difficulties, I mean the process of fitting in. Sakurai has went on the record to say this:
To end this Samus/Mega Man debate, there isn't any reason to believe that the very minor similarity will have any impact on Mega Man's chances. By this logic, you can also argue that there are similarities between Lloyd and sword users since both uses swords (even if Lloyd uses two swords, it's still a sword). However, these minor difference won't hurt Lloyd either.

As for what third-parties get picked, we'll have to see what happens here. I'm not going to claim that Mega Man is going to be in or that Lloyd definitely won't make the cut (I actually do think that he's the most likely Namco rep and probably the only realistic one). I'd even argue that Layton is also a real possibility to keep an eye out for. But one thing is for certain, a trivial similarity as the Samus/Mega Man's arm cannon comparison will not be what Sakurai thinks about when deciding on him.

But if Lloyd gets picked, I actually would have no objection considering that any possible third-party has got to be better than Pac-Man at this rate. Eh, tired of this debate anyway.

I await your apology when Pac-Man is confirmed

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Thus, I must ask myself: is it me who is backwards or is it the world? Of course, I will always think that it is you, and so you will do with me. The reasons I can give to justify your insanity are: "you all are hardcore fanboys who won't admit a complaint against Nintendo's rosters" and "you are just North-American".

I love the "you disagree with me, you're all fanboys" mentality. I know how much **** Nintendo can make (Oh Other M why, oh Virtual Boy, oh so many things,) but Brawl's roster definitely served the overall image better than any of those suggested characters would. I don't think Brawl's roster was perfect by any means, look at my avatar jeez, but the Brawl roster doesn't objectively suck just because you think it did, and that's how you treat it. I can't believe I really have to say this, but Opinion=/=Fact.

Also, even though Mother is a dying franchise, it still needs representation. Smash Bros isn't all about advertising for other games. In that manner Krystal shouldn't even be in your mentions considering Star Fox is on hiatus, and Krystal doesn't appear in the Star Fox 64 3DS remake. On top of that, Snake would never have made it in the game considering he's on rival consoles. Further following your logic that only big franchises should have multiple representants (considering how much you think Dedede and Meta Knight didn't deserve to be in even if it's a big franchise), we can opt Krystal even more out. Then we can open our arms to a roster filled with 40% Mario, 30% Pokémon, 20% LoZ, and 10% other characters. GG.

By the way, I'm Danish, sø yøur flåwæd præ-judicæ døæsn't wørk.

Note: I don't hate the idea of Krystal, I'm neutral to it, but it's easy to pick your arguments apart using that specific character.

 

[buirac]

I love the "you disagree with me, you're all fanboys" mentality. I know how much **** Nintendo can make (Oh Other M why, oh Virtual Boy, oh so many things,) but Brawl's roster definitely served the overall image better than any of those suggested characters would. I don't think Brawl's roster was perfect by any means, look at my avatar jeez, but the Brawl roster doesn't objectively suck just because you think it did, and that's how you treat it. I can't believe I really have to say this, but Opinion=/=Fact.

Also, even though Mother is a dying franchise, it still needs representation. Smash Bros isn't all about advertising for other games. In that manner Krystal shouldn't even be in your mentions considering Star Fox is on hiatus, and Krystal doesn't appear in the Star Fox 64 3DS remake. On top of that, Snake would never have made it in the game considering he's on rival consoles. Further following your logic that only big franchises should have multiple representants (considering how much you think Dedede and Meta Knight didn't deserve to be in even if it's a big franchise), we can opt Krystal even more out. Then we can open our arms to a roster filled with 40% Mario, 30% Pokémon, 20% LoZ, and 10% other characters. GG.

By the way, I'm Danish, sø yøur flåwæd præ-judicæ døæsn't wørk.

Note: I don't hate the idea of Krystal, I'm neutral to it, but it's easy to pick your arguments apart using that specific character.

My "antifanboy" mentality only rose against the people who started mocking my opinions, sources and person. I'm sorry if you felt targeted by my last statement, it wasn't meant to.

If you scroll back my posts, you will see that I never said Brawl's roster sucks. I only said its criteria was arbitrary, and that this fact led to bad choices: R.O.B., Lucas and "Wolf over Krystal" (my justification is up there). I don't think DDD, Metaknight nor Lucario are bad characters, I only discussed their way to get there, their priority.

Besides, you should check again my Very First Post on this site, where I stated the only iterative new characters from Melee's consolidated biggest sagas are Bowser Jr, Paper Mario and Impa (this one has been on eight games). Given this fact, it's obvious that we should represent other sagas, specially new, popular and active ones, such as Golden Sun or Xenoblade, while regenerating powerful others like Metroid, Fire Emblem or Pokemon.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

My "antifanboy" mentality only rose against the people who started mocking my opinions, sources and person. I'm sorry if you felt targeted by my last statement, it wasn't meant to.

If you scroll back my posts, you will see that I never said Brawl's roster sucks. I only said its criteria was arbitrary, and that this fact led to bad choices: R.O.B., Lucas and "Wolf over Krystal" (my justification is up there). I don't think DDD, Metaknight nor Lucario are bad characters, I only discussed their way to get there, their priority.

Besides, you should check again my Very First Post on this site, where I stated the only iterative new characters from Melee's consolidated biggest sagas are Bowser Jr, Paper Mario and Impa (this one has been on eight games). Given this fact, it's obvious that we should represent other sagas, specially new, popular and active ones, such as Golden Sun or Xenoblade, while regenerating powerful others like Metroid, Fire Emblem or Pokemon.

Well, seems like I misintepreted your post big time then. Sorry about that.

I still feel that DDD and Meta Knight's way of getting into the game is from the same criteria that characters like Diddy Kong, Luigi and Falco got into the game: Importance to their franchise and popularity, not bias on Sakurai's side.

 

[Frostwraith]

Holy...! (O_O);

Two entire pages of nonstop arguing and senselessness!

 

[buirac]

I think Diddy got in the series in the same way DDD or Metaknight would have on their own. The fact is that they were added simultaneously. The only precedents of a franchise getting this much nonclonical stuff are Mario-Luigi, Pikachu-Jigglypuff, Peach-Bowser, Mewtwo-Pichu, PokemonT-Lucario and Ganondorf-Sheik-Zelda. So only Mario, Zelda and Pokémon sagas were worth having so much attention. The case with Marth and Roy is quite different because they are clones (besides, their 0+2 [Marth/Roy] is not as shocking as the [kirby] 1+2 [DDD/Metaknight] from Dreamland). At the same time, the only Big Franchise that got full new characters was Pokemon. So, somehow, getting DDD and Metaknight together felt like they were being compared to such (indeed, they were on the first video Brawl showed), but Kirby's franchise had always been treated like a Tiny One until then! Here we have another proof of mixed, inconstant criteria.

To end, Falco is a clone, his criteria for getting into Brawl was Arbitrary Cloning. 6 clones for 1 new character, do you remember? Not even this criteria was followed in Brawl, since the Half Clones (such as Wolf or Lucas) were introduced in that generation, and they didn't follow the previous cloning rules.

 

[Deleted member]

People mistake the "character must be unique" thing for "no character will be similar to another".
Aside from the what kind of special moves they use, are Fox, Falco, and Wolf all the same? No. Wolf is especially unique in his feral style of fighting in comparison to Fox's traditional hand-to-hand combat. Then we have Falco in Brawl, who was given a more "winged" flair (pun slightly intended) on his fighting style and the fact he lends himself more for aerial combat than Fox does (though some may debate otherwise due to their preferred style of play).

Regardless of the similarities to C. Falcon, even Ganondorf is still a unique character. No one else so far pulls off the "pathetically slow, but really frigging strong" archtype of fighting like ol' Ganon does. Bowser doesn't come close, but even he has his own style no one else copies, something that can only be described as "Kaiju style".

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Wait a minute..

You think we're fanboys when you're denying historical fact?

Look bucko. If you don't believe that R.O.B. saved gaming, look it up. You've refused to do any research on that matter. You're the one who's fanboying not everyone else.

And lol North American? XD

About half of us are from Europe.

 

[Deleted member]

Isn't it obvious, Swampy?
We're fanboys because we actually give a rat's ass about what's accurate and what's not.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

A fanboy is someone who claims to be a fan of something but spends all day criticizing it. They will defend it if you dare criticize it yourself though.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

A fanboy is someone who claims to be a fan of something but spends all day criticizing it. They will defend it if you dare criticize it yourself though.

So.....

None of us are a fanboy?

 

[FalKoopa]

So I check the thread again after half a day, and I see that the after-effects of the discussion are still being felt.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I think Diddy got in the series in the same way DDD or Metaknight would have on their own. The fact is that they were added simultaneously. The only precedents of a franchise getting this much nonclonical stuff are Mario-Luigi, Pikachu-Jigglypuff, Peach-Bowser, Mewtwo-Pichu, PokemonT-Lucario and Ganondorf-Sheik-Zelda. So only Mario, Zelda and Pokémon sagas were worth having so much attention. The case with Marth and Roy is quite different because they are clones (besides, their 0+2 [Marth/Roy] is not as shocking as the [kirby] 1+2 [DDD/Metaknight] from Dreamland). At the same time, the only Big Franchise that got full new characters was Pokemon. So, somehow, getting DDD and Metaknight together felt like they were being compared to such (indeed, they were on the first video Brawl showed), but Kirby's franchise had always been treated like a Tiny One until then! Here we have another proof of mixed, inconstant criteria.

To end, Falco is a clone, his criteria for getting into Brawl was Arbitrary Cloning. 6 clones for 1 new character, do you remember? Not even this criteria was followed in Brawl, since the Half Clones (such as Wolf or Lucas) were introduced in that generation, and they didn't follow the previous cloning rules.

Falco's inclusion was exactly because he was popular and important to his franchise, Wolf was considered before him first, but Falco got in over him for the previously mentioned reasons.

The only reason Kirby was treated like a tiny franchise was because Sakurai didn't want to over-represent his own franchise, hence why it took Dedede 3 games to appear, hence why it was an inconsistent criteria. Plus, how would you not make Meta Knight and Dedede unique? There's no way to make these two characters clones, and there's no reason why they should be clones considering they were made as starters for Brawl, unlike the unfortunate fate of Ganondorf in Melee.

 

[Frostwraith]

So I check the thread again after half a day, and I see that the after-effects of the discussion are still being felt.

It's like an earthquake. It happens in a quick moment and leaves massive devastation.

Also, that North American statement was LOL worthy, since I'm Portuguese and there are a lot of Europeans in these boards, like Swampy said.

 

[kikaru]

Being a newcomer to this forum buirac isn't going to know who the reliable sources are like Chrono and N3on but if he's not going to look up these things for himself you guys might just want to link all these polls and events so you can save himself from his own ignorance.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-directory-thread.324410/

I'm not sure how many of your questions can be answered here buirac.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I'm just going to post this here since I know a lot about game history, but it wasn't just R.O.B. that saved it even by a long shot - It was publishers as well that were less stingy about projects and more on quality and developers for truly realizing that gaming needed to get out of what it was, not just a machine that came out with 2 games.

Though, on the other hand, he did still help sell some NES's but yeah. Research is good.

Also stuff I disagree with and agree with on here but really the "It's your roster" thing comes into effect here. All this mainly did was reminded me that I need to update probable character roster.

 

[AnOkayDM]

I'm American, but I think I'm the only American who's been arguing with this guy. =P

Speaking of which, I'm done. He's ignoring everything everybody is saying to him, refusing to acknowledge simple facts, claiming he's right when everyone here knows he isn't, and providing flimsy "arguments" to back up his flawed point of view. So he clearly can't be reasoned with.

I'll just leave it at this.
Buirac.
R.O.B.'s inclusion was perfectly justified. So was Lucas's, and so was Wolf's. Those are the original points, right?
Just because you hate some characters, that doesn't mean they don't belong. Each of these characters got in for a reason, and even if you're too stubborn to listen, the logic is there. We've refuted all of your arguments many times, but I don't care anymore. Feel free to continue being misinformed, ignorant, and entitled.

And feel free to reply to this post, but don't expect to hear from me again until you're willing to listen to reason.


I suggest you all join me in ignoring this guy until he has something worthwhile to say rather than spewing the drivel of a madman.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I was just adding what I had to say in-general to discussion and not feeding trolling. I'm just sick of people saying the most ridiculous things they can pull out of their ass about the game crash of 1984.

Also I'll comment on the roster later.

 

[buirac]

Overall:

You justify Kirby's World ilicit affluence by saying it was restrainted at first. Saying it's worldwide as big as Metroid (even if more resources, hype and better critics are put in it). Saying that the fact Sakurai created it is not important.

You justify the Dumb Duo of Lucas and R.O.B. by saying: Lucas was in the polls (though I haven't seen that, but suspicious anticipative rosters with his abscence instead). R.O.B. saved gaming industry (though "most people" won't ever know, ****, he is like the Dark Knight!). Lucas was more popular than alternatives (¿?). Nintendo has the natural right to **** with 80% of its audience. That the fact that Hal created Lucas is not important. The fact that Lucas entrance enables Mother to be as represented as Metroid and DK is not important. The fact that Lucas is from a recent but dead franchise is not important (his case is like Fire Emblem's promotion, it's OK if his franchise is dead). R.O.B. is way more wellknown than G&W (despite the fact that the second sold x10 more than the first) because the first appeared on Mario Kart DS and the second didn't have a concrete name.

You justify Wolf was over Krystal by saying it is stated by the polls (but there are no links). And it's definetely not a (half)cloning issue. Of course, the fact that they appeared in the same number of games, the fact that Krystal was playable, more transcendent and, to sum up, more than a simple head on a side of the screen yelling at you, does not matter.

You think that I'm stupid because I don't believe that the silliest game i've ever seen saved the whole game industry from complete obliteration.

Thus, I must ask myself: is it me who is backwards or is it the world? Of course, I will always think that it is you, and so you will do with me. The reasons I can give to justify your insanity are: "you all are hardcore fanboys who won't admit a complaint against Nintendo's rosters" and "you are just North-American".

I guess it's a language issue. I've repeatedly been misunderstood in this forums. I mean, I didn't expect more people would join this discussion (people were actually saying they would leave it), and I had been insulted and mocked for having a different opinion (you can just scroll back). That's when I lost all respect to my tertulians. I guessed all the insulting and the statements you've got up here can only come from "irrational defense" or just "a really, really different perspective" (a perspective I would never understand). Then, I remembered I had seen lots of North-American origins and I imagined their influence would be the biggest here. Besides, there's the saying NA can be very disrespectful (my statement was too, but they deserved).

Not believing R.O.B.'s history was a natural consequence of all the previous statements everyone made before ("Overall:", up there). No one except Wariofan1 accepted the least critic to Sakurai's roster. No one would acknowledge my point of view (which can be summarized in: Lucas, "Wolf over Krystal" and R.O.B. are bad choices / Sakurai's criteria change), it could only come from stupidity. So when people started with R.O.B.'s claim I decided I wouldn't even bother to investigate.

You know what? I could not resist the temptation. http://www.smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-did-not-save-video-games-in-the-states.149362/ . This thread is such a mess I finally realized everything is pointless here. So, to SB comunity it makes way more sense "R.O.B. tricked and saved the world" than "[Nintendo] made the bold move of offering a money-back guarantee to retailers for unsold merchandise"? And not just that. The crash was North-American, the effects were not comparable in Japan nor Europe. The NES was selling well in Japan. By the way, there is another issue: considering R.O.B. saved by himself (north-american) gaming is understimating real franchises such as Mario and Zelda. The cause of the crash was bad-quality saturation, but people recovered fey in videogames thanks to the top-quality franchises that really deserve to be in Smash. Were Gyromite and StackUp top-quality?


About cloning, I'm explaining this again. It's not about my supporting-nosupporting cloning. It's about the rules in cloning changed (from full-cloning to semi-cloning). Just like every other criteria between successions. Nintendo has different economical situations, so the rules change (I discussed Brawl's rules becuse they lead to Lucas, "Wolf over Krystal" and R.O.B.). I, as a consumer, want new rules for next Smash, since I think previous ones were more efficient.

I tried to justify Lucas, "Wolf over Krystal" and R.O.B. were mistakes, your answer is on the overall. I tried to justify different priorities/rules are given in different games.

 

[FalKoopa]

@buirac
The basic point is that Lucas, ROB, and Wolf were not mistakes. The majority of smash fans love them and want them to remain.

Also, why don't you run a poll on how many people think Lucas, ROB, and Wolf were mistakes? It's pretty easy now-a-days, with sites like easypolls.com.

 

[buirac]

@buirac
The basic point is that Lucas, ROB, and Wolf were not mistakes. The majority of smash fans love them and want them to remain.

Also, why don't you run a poll on how many people think Lucas, ROB, and Wolf were mistakes? It's pretty easy now-a-days, with sites like easypolls.com.

Unfair. They have already got in the game (indeed, they are bestly known for this fact). Alternatives to this 3 characters would have been loved too. My point is they were illegitimatelly priorized. Do you have any argument to this fact outside the "Overall"?

 

[FalKoopa]

Do you have any argument to this fact outside the "Overall"?

I don't really think I need any other argument, you know. The "Overall" argument is the one the one that matters the most. You would want the game to please a majority of the fanbase, not a select few.

Yes, over time, alternatives would have been loved too. Despite an initial ****storm, people would soon grow to love them. So why have YOU not grown to love them yet?

In any case, The argument has been going on more than a day now, so I'll drop it now. I'm tired.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Uh, are we on stupid train 101 now here? Lucas was a highly requested character (As much as I love Masked Man, it would make NO sense for him to appear before him) to begin with on the Brawl polls and was planned ever since Smash 64, making him the only character to be planned and be in one Smash game so far asides from Mewtwo. Wolf was also a very highly requested character (Requested more on everywhere outside of the Melee polls for Melee) and Krystal's popularity only unfortunately came afterwards; plus while Krystal's more important than Falco, Falco was already in and Wolf is arguably more important than both of them. Mother 3 has been one of the most popular ones and Wolf has been a trademark of every Star Fox game. To add to that, Wolf was even in the Melee trailer showing that with more time, they could have done him (For a start, unlike Falco, he didn't have a full body figure from 64)

So people wanted those characters, and asides from the people that actually expected Krystal or Masked Man to get in before (Though Krystal is a bit more viable) almost nobody was angry on their announcements. They're also the least cloniest.

As for R.O.B. bash all you want i don't really care he's okay but we could have gotten a better wtf character. I guess there's not much to choose from out of Ninty's history though; especially with some even being requested. (SUKAPONNNNN)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

R.O.B., Lucas, and Wolf all had good reasons for being included.

Most of us do criticize Sakurai's roster. Namely lack of certain characters and several of the Melee clones. We just feel that Sakurai made the right decision with R.O.B. Lucas and Wolf.

The arguments we had typically revolved around R.O.B. Lucas and Wolf and whether they were mistakes. They were not.

Regardless, we should get back to on topic discussions.

I don't know if I've said it yet but I enjoy reading Smashchu's ramblings. It's interesting hearing his opinion.

 

[buirac]

Uh, are we on stupid train 101 now here? Lucas was a highly requested character (As much as I love Masked Man, it would make NO sense for him to appear before him) to begin with on the Brawl polls and was planned ever since Smash 64, making him the only character to be planned and be in one Smash game so far asides from Mewtwo. Wolf was also a very highly requested character (Requested more on everywhere outside of the Melee polls for Melee) and Krystal's popularity only unfortunately came afterwards; plus while Krystal's more important than Falco, Falco was already in and Wolf is arguably more important than both of them. Mother 3 has been one of the most popular ones and Wolf has been a trademark of every Star Fox game. To add to that, Wolf was even in the Melee trailer showing that with more time, they could have done him (For a start, unlike Falco, he didn't have a full body figure from 64)

So people wanted those characters, and asides from the people that actually expected Krystal or Masked Man to get in before (Though Krystal is a bit more viable) almost nobody was angry on their announcements. They're also the least cloniest.

As for R.O.B. bash all you want i don't really care he's okay but we could have gotten a better wtf character. I guess there's not much to choose from out of Ninty's history though; especially with some even being requested. (SUKAPONNNNN)

Every single point in your argumentation is in the Overall:

1st: I still have to see those polls. Theorical reasons are against Lucas being as requested as lots of alternatives. Lucas might have been predicted (as he is Hal's creation, and had been in a recent videogame), but there is no reason to believe he was requested, as he was a Japanese exclusive (if you don't know him, you can't request him), from a Tiny Franchise (total = 2), only appeared in one LAST game and was a potential clone (though he ended being a semiclone). My only tangible proof of his not-enough-popularity are fake rosters spread in the net; there's no Lucas, but some Paulas or Masked Mans (this is more tangible proof than you offer). The fact that he was planned for the Original Smash only exposes that the company believed Smash wouldn't get out of Japan. Actually, this point is pretty much against your idea, since it tells us Lucas was desired by the company, not by the fans, as he could have gotten in the roster without fans request.

2nd: I still have to see those polls. Theorical reasons are against "Wolf over Krystal" was requested. Before Brawl, Krystal and Wolf have appeared in the same number of games, but:

- Krystal is more than a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen
- Krystal is playable (a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen is not)
- Krystal is better designed than a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen
- As Krystal is playable and appears during her whole games we can assume she is more important than a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen
- Krystal is an idol in "furry" communities
- Krystal has way more possibilities for her moveset than a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen
- (This is not a point for everyone, but some people consider it) Krystal balances sex

Again, the company didn't coincide with the audience, as she wasn't designed by Nintendo (don't bring Diddy here, since every important DK character is Rare's - except DK himself) and Wolf was. Besides the arbitrary favor (arbitrary for the audience, I mean), Wolf didn't have to be made from scratch.

3rd: I'm not bashing R.O.B. I'm stating his inclusion has selfish, antieconomical reasons.

R.O.B., Lucas, and Wolf all had good reasons for being included.

Most of us do criticize Sakurai's roster. Namely lack of certain characters and several of the Melee clones. We just feel that Sakurai made the right decision with R.O.B. Lucas and Wolf.

The arguments we had typically revolved around R.O.B. Lucas and Wolf and whether they were mistakes. They were not.

Regardless, we should get back to on topic discussions.

I don't know if I've said it yet but I enjoy reading Smashchu's ramblings. It's interesting hearing his opinion.

1st: I haven't read any of such critcs. Besides it's difficult for me to see which inclusions would deserve them more.
2nd: I liked SmashChus analysis too, this is the reason because of which I wanted to discuss his rules. In fact, my critic to R.O.B./Lucas/WolfoverKristal is only a part of my real point: Smash rules are inconstant, due to economical different situations.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Every single point in your argumentation is in the Overall:

1st: I still have to see those polls. Theorical reasons are against Lucas being as requested as lots of alternatives. Lucas might have been predicted (as he is Hal's creation, and had been in a recent videogame), but there is no reason to believe he was requested, as he was a Japanese exclusive (if you don't know him, you can't request him), from a Tiny Franchise (total = 2), only appeared in one LAST game and was a potential clone (though he ended being a semiclone). My only tangible proof of his not-enough-popularity are fake rosters spread in the net; there's no Lucas, but some Paulas or Masked Mans (this is more tangible proof than you offer). The fact that he was planned for the Original Smash only exposes that the company believed Smash wouldn't get out of Japan. Actually, this point is pretty much against your idea, since it tells us Lucas was desired by the company, not by the fans, as he could have gotten in the roster without fans request. You know what. Look below.

2nd: I still have to see those polls. Look around. You will find some. Theorical reasons are against "Wolf over Krystal" was requested. Before Brawl, Krystal and Wolf have appeared in the same number of games, but:

- Krystal is more than a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen. As if Wolf.
- Krystal is playable (a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen is not) As is Wolf.
- Krystal is better designed than a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen. That's opinion sir. And should be not be treated as fact.
- As Krystal is playable and appears during her whole games we can assume she is more important than a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen. Have you played Assault or Command? No really?
- Krystal is an idol in "furry" communities. That's more of a negative.
- Krystal has way more possibilities for her moveset than a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen. Wolf had plenty of moveset potential. The weapons from Assault would have been amazing.
- (This is not a point for everyone, but some people consider it) Krystal balances sex. Not really a point, but you admit that so, no problems there.

Again, the company didn't coincide with the audience, as she wasn't designed by Nintendo (don't bring Diddy here, since every important DK character is Rare's - except DK himself) and Wolf was. Besides the arbitrary favor (arbitrary for the audience, I mean), Wolf didn't have to be made from scratch. That's a REALLY big assumption there. Can you prove it?

3rd: I'm not bashing R.O.B. I'm stating his inclusion has selfish, antieconomical reasons. Isn't that bashing him?




1st: I haven't read any of such critcs. Besides it's difficult for me to see which inclusions would deserve them more. Read around in other threads. Most of us despise Pichu and Doc and think Roy, Mewtwo and Ridley should have been in Brawl.
2nd: I liked SmashChus analysis too, this is the reason because of which I wanted to discuss his rules. In fact, my critic to R.O.B./Lucas/WolfoverKristal is only a part of my real point: Smash rules are inconstant, due to economical different situations. Okay.

I'm sorry... I just can't let this go.

Even though you are too lazy to look things up for yourself. I found some results from an official poll. Note. This is only part of the poll but my point
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/characters-on-sakurais-poll.71872/

There's an official poll from Sakurai. Lucas did pretty well tieing with several other characters.

Wolf does not appear to do well but you have to remember that the poll is only shown in bits and peices. Sonic is nowhere to be found and he was apparently put in because he dominated the polls.

The poll only shows that Lucas was a popular request.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Every single point in your argumentation is in the Overall:

1st: I still have to see those polls. Theorical reasons are against Lucas being as requested as lots of alternatives. Lucas might have been predicted (as he is Hal's creation, and had been in a recent videogame), but there is no reason to believe he was requested, as he was a Japanese exclusive (if you don't know him, you can't request him), from a Tiny Franchise (total = 2), only appeared in one LAST game and was a potential clone (though he ended being a semiclone). My only tangible proof of his not-enough-popularity are fake rosters spread in the net; there's no Lucas, but some Paulas or Masked Mans (this is more tangible proof than you offer). The fact that he was planned for the Original Smash only exposes that the company believed Smash wouldn't get out of Japan. Actually, this point is pretty much against your idea, since it tells us Lucas was desired by the company, not by the fans, as he could have gotten in the roster without fans request. Did you read the original NSider? That's where a lot of support from Lyn came, amongst others that I could go on listing. There's the Brawl polls floating around somewhere here and to top that off, he was confirmed rather early. The size of the franchise doesn't matter that much as proven on several occasions.

As I said, more people may have wanted Masked Man over Lucas, which is highly plausible, but speaking realistically, it makes no sense to have the Antagonist before the Protagonist + That's even more reasoning. I can bet you right now that between Melee and Brawl, Mother 3 was one of the most well-received games from Nintendo's newer stuff. Maybe not the most popular, but people surely love it on the same scale as Fire Emblem 9/10, Golden Sun 1/2, Pikmin 1/2, Wind Waker, TTYD, and Sunshine. Really, go look it all up yourself.

He's not even that semi-clone.

Original Smash and Melee. Mother 3 was originally going to make it out to the states and was even shown multiple times at SpaceWorld and other exhibits when it was on the N64. Only reason he didn't was because, well, his game didn't finish until long later than that. Honestly, every character could have got in without popularity, and especially with Brawl, a lot of them probably did. I think the only ones where popularity truly helped were Sonic, Lucario (To an extent), and Wolf (Once again, to an extent)

2nd: I still have to see those polls. Theorical reasons are against "Wolf over Krystal" was requested. Before Brawl, Krystal and Wolf have appeared in the same number of games, but:

- Krystal is more than a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen :Read: Below
- Krystal is playable (a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen is not) Krystal was playable for a portion of Adventures (A very short portion) and Command. Wolf was playable in the multiplayer of Assault, helped the team in the last mission, and was playable in Command.
- Krystal is better designed than a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen Read: Above
- As Krystal is playable and appears during her whole games we can assume she is more important than a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen In Adventures she serves as the heroine/kidnapped, so I'll give you that, but beyond that let's look.

-Command (Wolf plays the highest role asides from Fox but this entire plot is garbage anyways)
-Assault (Wolf plays a role in helping Fox/takes part in a good portion of the game)
-64 (Whether he's more important than one of the partners is a constant debate so I'm not going over this much)
-2 (He had a lot of importance there)
- Krystal is an idol in "furry" communities ...and?
- Krystal has way more possibilities for her moveset than a blurry floating head yelling at you from the side of the screen Sort-of, but Fox uses the Staff most of the game and Wolf does have unique attributes even if not showing it
- (This is not a point for everyone, but some people consider it) Krystal balances sex wolf appeals to the black minority of smash

Again, the company didn't coincide with the audience, as she wasn't designed by Nintendo (don't bring Diddy here, since every important DK character is Rare's - except DK himself) and Wolf was. Besides the arbitrary favor (arbitrary for the audience, I mean), Wolf didn't have to be made from scratch.

3rd: I'm not bashing R.O.B. I'm stating his inclusion has selfish, antieconomical reasons. I don't want to get into another "I bash Sakurai as a producer" discussion so I'll say I can sort-of half agree there, give it a 50/50, and leave it at that.

Not going to spend too much time on this but I'll summarize if you don't feel like reading the red: Lucas and Wolf had every reason and highly deserved their place on the Roster for being liked by Developers, being liked by Fans, and being both interesting additions to their perspective series making both Smash fans satisfied and people interested in trying out their games. Could Krystal and Masked Man be more interesting? Yes, easily; frankly some of the most interesting characters Smash could ever see given their perspective games. Was it the time for those two characters? No not really, though I guess you can keep ping-ponging about Wolf. Could their movesets be a tad bit better? I guess Wolf's could use more Assault weapons (Maybe varying up the B moves a bit?) and a bit more of a varied gameplay style, and both could use a different Final Smash, but other then that they're close to or are perfectly fine as is.

And then all you've got left of the argument is "Lucas and Wolf come from series that don't deserve ___ reps!" which I've got no idea how much longer people will pull this one out of their ass for - It matters, but not nearly as much as people think it does. Ever try MvC2/3? Namco x Capcom? Fortune Street? Mario Sports Mix? In crossover games it really doesn't matter. In-fact, I would even go as far as to say more "Lesser represented" series could use more reps just to tract more interest into the franchise. It's the one time every console generation that traction can be gained for their series, and it's worked every time. Melee helped Fire Emblem, Game & Watch, and Mother. Brawl helped FE, Pikmin, Mother, Kid Icarus, Kirby (Kirby wasn't all so hot in the 6th gen, and to an extent, 5th gen), DK, and so on.

Really, I want Smash 4 to expand on supporting characters (completing some franchises asides from Kirby would be nice bros) and give more new series. I'd love that more than seeing say, Toon Zelda, Bowser Jr, or Mewtwo (not that I hate them or anything) as we would get fresh interest into even more games and it works fair for everyone in the end with the 3DS/WiiU lifecycle

COME AT ME NAYSAYERS.

I'm sorry... I just can't let this go.

Even though you are too lazy to look things up for yourself. I found some results from an official poll. Note. This is only part of the poll but my point
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/characters-on-sakurais-poll.71872/

There's an official poll from Sakurai. Lucas did pretty well tieing with several other characters.

Wolf does not appear to do well but you have to remember that the poll is only shown in bits and peices. Sonic is nowhere to be found and he was apparently put in because he dominated the polls.

The poll only shows that Lucas was a popular request.

Wolf did well on the Melee poll and was apparently ranked high on the NSider poll. Though I've proved my point about Wolf with just about everything else.
Sonic got in because he was by far (Like, literally by far, for anyone who knows anything about the original NSider) the most requested character for a Smash game... ever. There were seriously some crazy nuts who truly wanted him in the game.

 

[buirac]

King Dedede(5) - CONFIRMED!
Diddy Kong(4) - CONFIRMED!
Geno(4)
Ike(4) - CONFIRMED!
Ridley(4)
Captain Olimar & Pikmin(3) - CONFIRMED!
Krystal(3)
Takamaru(3)
Windwaker Link(3)
Animal Crossing MC(2) - in BG of Smashville stage
Claus(2)
Demiru(2)
Isaac(2)
Jeff(2)
Kawasima(2)
King K.Rool(2)
Lip(2)
Lucas(2) - CONFIRMED!
Mega Man(2)
Oguma(2)
Ouendan(2)
Sukapon(2)


Is it the list you are talking about? Do you realize it favors all my points? You've just Source Suicided. In fact, this is a ranking made from Sakurai's presented polls, so it is the most convenient ranking of popularity for Brawl (obviously it's good publicity for Brawl to have requested newcomers in its roster). It states that there are (at least) 3 characters with popular priority to Lucas and that Krystal is way over Wolf. Even following Smashchu's Criteria, Lucas would never get to the roster.

I'm even surprised to verify I was THAT MUCH right. I mean, there was so many people against me... And now it turns out EVERY SINGLE one of my points turns out to be confirmed. I've spent so much time and energy with this fight. It was totally worth it, now you all know truth.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

...And that still completely dodges my points about the rest of the sources that he was a wanted character. I mentioned that poll as one source.

You still have to consider the following that I've mentioned:
-Wanted to be in since previous Smash Bros games by the developers/producers
-Requested on various other places
-Hold importance in their franchise over other characters
-Helm from well received games
-They're not even that much of clones

So really I'm not sure where you're going with this. I'm not even sure what the hell you're trying to even debate with those two.

 

[buirac]

Not going to spend too much time on this but I'll summarize if you don't feel like reading the red: Lucas and Wolf had every reason and highly deserved their place on the Roster for being liked by Developers, being liked by Fans, and being both interesting additions to their perspective series making both Smash fans satisfied and people interested in trying out their games. Could Krystal and Masked Man be more interesting? Yes, easily; frankly some of the most interesting characters Smash could ever see given their perspective games. Was it the time for those two characters? No not really, though I guess you can keep ping-ponging about Wolf. Could their movesets be a tad bit better? I guess Wolf's could use more Assault weapons (Maybe varying up the B moves a bit?) and a bit more of a varied gameplay style, and both could use a different Final Smash, but other then that they're close to or are perfectly fine as is.

And then all you've got left of the argument is "Lucas and Wolf come from series that don't deserve ___ reps!" which I've got no idea how much longer people will pull this one out of their *** for - It matters, but not nearly as much as people think it does. Ever try MvC2/3? Namco x Capcom? Fortune Street? Mario Sports Mix? In crossover games it really doesn't matter. In-fact, I would even go as far as to say more "Lesser represented" series could use more reps just to tract more interest into the franchise. It's the one time every console generation that traction can be gained for their series, and it's worked every time. Melee helped Fire Emblem, Game & Watch, and Mother. Brawl helped FE, Pikmin, Mother, Kid Icarus, Kirby (Kirby wasn't all so hot in the 6th gen, and to an extent, 5th gen), DK, and so on.

Really, I want Smash 4 to expand on supporting characters (completing some franchises asides from Kirby would be nice bros) and give more new series. I'd love that more than seeing say, Toon Zelda, Bowser Jr, or Mewtwo (not that I hate them or anything) as we would get fresh interest into even more games and it works fair for everyone in the end with the 3DS/WiiU lifecycle

COME AT ME NAYSAYERS.




Wolf did well on the Melee poll and was apparently ranked high on the NSider poll. Though I've proved my point about Wolf with just about everything else.
Sonic got in because he was by far (Like, literally by far, for anyone who knows anything about the original NSider) the most requested character for a Smash game... ever. There were seriously some crazy nuts who truly wanted him in the game.

I think theorical reasons for Wolf over Krystal started to overcome me... Until swamp showed us the poll ranking.

Lucas case is different. You've recognized Earthbound couldn't be greater than the time's Paper Mario and Golden Sun, and then you said you wanted new series. Lucas was not more popular than Hans (poll ranking), who came from a new franchise. It wouldn't make the game more interesting than Hans. Here you have it, and Hans is only an example.

I'm not implying that all characters should be picked because of their popularity, but Lucas had little more to offer (not even promotion: dead saga).

And remember I'm based on the most convinient poll for Brawl.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I think theorical reasons for Wolf over Krystal started to overcome me... Until swamp showed us the poll ranking.

Okay, let's leave it at that. Wolf deserved his spot and Krystal would be cool sometime in the future. Great. Now onto Lucas.

Lucas case is different. You've recognized Earthbound couldn't be greater than the time's Paper Mario and Golden Sun, and then you said you wanted new series. Lucas was not more popular than Hans (poll ranking), who came from a new franchise. It wouldn't make the game more interesting than Hans. Here you have it, and Hans is only an example.

I'm not implying that all characters should be picked because of their popularity, but Lucas had little more to offer (not even promotion: dead saga).

What I'm more-or-less saying is that Earthbound (Well, after Smash) and Mother 3 are highly recognized and were high up there in likability. Seriously, M3 was not only one of the few Nintendo games to get a full fan translation running the way they did, but it got quite a cult following that frankly was pretty scary. In-general, a second mother representative was also requested a lot. Masked Man was requested abit more but the problem with that is priority, so... yeah. Stuff happens.

Note: I did actually want to see new series more with Brawl. The fact we only got Olimar is ridiculous but that's a totally different topic entirely and I don't feel like drawing this out further.

He actually did have a lot to offer. So what if the series is over? All series end at some point. Remakes or ports are always possible. Not every character has to be "SUPER ADVERTISEMENT GOES HERE" + the "He's dead" argument makes it even better in some ways. Where else would I get an outlet to play as Lucas again asides from replaying Mother 3? Same with Wolf? Captain Falcon not having a new F-Zero game for a while? Meanwhile, characters like Toad, Bowser Jr, and Mewtwo come up over and over again. Not that I'm saying they are important, but I'm more saying for a game like this I prefer lesser series getting more characters and new characters from new franchises whether retro or new so we have a better chance at getting new games or at least different series than the same chalked up Zelda/Mario/Pokemon "and some other franchises

Note: I'm saying that in a way as I prefer variety; I still love my Mario/Zelda/Pokemon/Etc fill as much as everyone else but one thing that is truly exciting about Smash is seeing revivals for characters and franchises; it's worked three games in a row so seeing it play even stronger this time around would be amazing.

tl;dr: Lucas was a worthy spot on the roster, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at. He fits fine. Most of the Brawl line-up really does.