Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Please stop with the accusations of alt users. Keep it civil.

 

[Megadoomer]

Yes, but Ridley would not be impossible. There are mods that disprove that. Even Ice Climbers are possible. He had them running on Smash for Wii U. Nothing impossible about that.

Sakurai made it clear that he wanted both the Wii U and 3DS to have the same roster (so, even if they worked on the Wii U, the fact that they didn't work on the 3DS kept them out), and Ridley likely wasn't considered as an option due to him already being a prominent stage hazard. (it's not like Toon Link on the train level, where he's an easily replaceable background character)

Ridley being a playable character is long overdue, but I can at least see why he wasn't included through the Smash Ballot.

 

[Superyoshiom]

I really hope we get cool stages.

I'm serious when I say I don't want more DK jungles, lava/acid Metroid stages and Super Star stages.
It's not funny at this point.

I remember when we were all hoping for a Return To Dreamland stage for Smash 4, and ended up with Dream Land and The Great Cave Offensive, the latter I had high hopes for but was disappointed when I found out it was another one of those eight-player stages.

I want some space-based Kirby stages from Robobot or Return To Dreamland, or the autumn stage from Star Allies. In fact there's a lot of cool stuff from Star Allies they could use for stages, though I think a Robobot stage would be more inventive.

The problem is, I doubt Sakurai would ever pull Kirby stages not part of his own games, so it'll just be Dreamland, Adventure, and Super Star stages until the end of time.

Please stop with the accusations of alt users. Keep it civil.

We're approaching GameFaqs levels of argumentation here.

 

[Fenriraga]

???

Google harder. It was definitely among the most realizable characters. They literally had to add that qualifier in for a reason. Wonder what that reason could have been? I can answer that for you. But you are not going to like the answer. It was... Because... The Ballot was rigged, at least partially.


Yes, but Ridley would not be impossible. There are mods that disprove that. Even Ice Climbers are possible. He had them running on Smash for Wii U. Nothing impossible about that.

You are so overly dramatic in your flair with this argument that I don't know whether to be laughing or show concern. I'll go with both.

Anyway I'm just going to stop here regardless. I can absolutely continue arguing. But I'm pretty much arguing with a flat-earther at this point.

"Lol look you're resorting to petty insults instead of just accepting I'm right haha"

Yeah sure. Bye.

 

[RetroMetalSonic]

I really hope we get cool stages.

I'm serious when I say I don't want more DK jungles, lava/acid Metroid stages and Super Star stages.
It's not funny at this point.

Same here. I really want a stage based off of something more recent from the Kirby franchise... I'd love a stage from Return to Dreamland or Planet Robobot.

 

[Opossum]

They considered making Pauline a princess of New Donk City at one point. With Rosalina’s design, I would not be surprised if the designers intended her to be a princess.

But at that point it's mere speculation. The fact of the matter is that nothing has canonically referred to her as a princess.

 

[Superyoshiom]

Oh, hello everyone.

People are still complaining about the ballot?

Bayonetta won worldwide, which means she won overall.

I am fine with Bayonetta in Smash Bros.

Can we change the subject please?

Thank you, I'm glad someone finally wants to debate more civil topics.

On that note, let's discuss Pyra's design changes that will inevitably be made if she's put in Smash.

 

[Morbi]

You are so overly dramatic in your flair with this argument that I don't know whether to be laughing or show concern. I'll go with both.

Anyway I'm just going to stop here regardless. I can absolutely continue arguing. But I'm pretty much arguing with a flat-earther at this point.

"Lol look you're resorting to petty insults instead of just accepting I'm right haha"

Yeah sure. Bye.

Have you ever thought that perhaps that is just your perception? You called me a cartoon villain. Just, sit there, for one moment, and ask yourself if I am genuinely trying to be dramatic by just pointing out a contradiction.

I am not a flat-earther because I disagree with you. I supported my argument and you cannot refute it. No need to throw a temper tantrum directed my way as a result of it.

I never stated that. I am just saying that if you are running away from answering one simple question because you do not want to discuss it with me, it speaks volumes about your ability to actually contest my thoughts without insulting me.

Sakurai made it clear that he wanted both the Wii U and 3DS to have the same roster (so, even if they worked on the Wii U, the fact that they didn't work on the 3DS kept them out), and Ridley likely wasn't considered as an option due to him already being a prominent stage hazard. (it's not like Toon Link on the train level, where he's an easily replaceable background character)

Ridley being a playable character is long overdue, but I can at least see why he wasn't included through the Smash Ballot.

Absolutely. That is precisely my point. His arbitrary criteria is applied to what is or is not "impossible."

 

[RosiePeaches]

But at that point it's mere speculation. The fact of the matter is that nothing has canonically referred to her as a princess.

Nintendo purposely does not refer to those things explictly in the Mario franchise. They leave it up to interpretation but they give each character basic traits. Mario characters are very flexible as a result, and are open to interpretation. Peach can pull out a Bob-omb or a Mr Saturn along with turnips...because she can.

Like, in Mario Run it isn’t explictly stated that Daisy sings the song, but it is implied through the statue.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Honestly, you are over-exaggerating a "bunch." She is realistically, next in line after Toad (Captain) and Waluigi. Maybe you could throw Paper Mario in there. But regardless, she is a top five pick from the franchise. That is nigh undeniable. Nintendo treats her quite well and that, at the end of the day, is what contributes to whether or not a character is deserving.

Daisy can't even get in as assist trophy to represent the very same spin-offs people call her to represent or as a proper alt for Peach though.

She has to beat at most Toad/Captain Toad, Waluigi, Paper Mario, Pauline, and **** even Geno at this point.

If she's in a line. She's at the back of it.

 

[Jubileus57]

The problem is, I doubt Sakurai would ever pull Kirby stages not part of his own games, so it'll just be Dreamland, Adventure, and Super Star stages until the end of time.

And that would be rather deplorable and close-minded Newest Kirby games have tons of potential stage-wise...

And character-wise as well (Bandana Deearest, I hope you'll make it)

 

[Morbi]

Daisy can't even get in as assist trophy to represent the very same spin-offs people call her to represent or as a proper alt for Peach though.

She has to beat at most Toad/Captain Toad, Waluigi, Paper Mario, Pauline, and **** even Geno at this point.

If she's in a line. She's at the back of it.

Actually, believe it or not, I agree with you to an extent. While Nintendo at large treats her well, she has been largely forgotten within a Smash context. I doubt we will even get a costume this time around (just the ugly color swap) and that absolutely saddens me because I would love to play as Daisy.

 

[Fenriraga]

And that would be rather deplorable and close-minded Newest Kirby games have tons of potential stage-wise...

And character-wise as well (Bandana Deearest, I hope you'll make it)

I mean, following that logic Bandana Dee originated in Super Star's mini game. So that technically means he's Super Star.

Obviously that wasn't him claim to faim but y'know.

 

[New_Dumal]

Please don't hate me but I don't want any Mario newcomer in Smash5.
Captain Toad as the lead of his own games it's the best case scenario for me.

I hate Waluigi as a character. I would study this MU a lot because it would be the so sad to lose a Waluigi main.
Daisy is cool, but I personally don't think she brings anything of value. Imagine you're playing the game and don't know she is playable. Boom, new challenger approaching, Daisy.
My reaction would be "Oh, it's Daisy ...hope she uses something from Mario Strikers..."
I know a lot of people thinks like that about Dixie/K.Rool too, so... yeah, it's hard to please everyone

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I feel gipped that I didn't get a Lor Starcutter stage.

 

[Opossum]

Nintendo purposely does not refer to those things explictly in the Mario franchise. They leave it up to interpretation but they give each character basic traits. Mario characters are very flexible as a result, and are open to interpretation. Peach can pull out a Bob-omb or a Mr Saturn along with turnips...because she can.

Like, in Mario Run it isn’t explictly stated that Daisy sings the song, but it is implied through the statue.

That isn't my point. My point is that wanting to "complete the Mario princess trio" is dumb because Rosalina isn't a princess.

 

[Fenriraga]

Have you ever thought that perhaps that is just your perception? You called me a cartoon villain. Just, sit there, for one moment, and ask yourself if I am genuinely trying to be dramatic by just pointing out a contradiction.

I am not a flat-earther because I disagree with you. I supported my argument and you cannot refute it. No need to throw a temper tantrum directed my way as a result of it.

I never stated that. I am just saying that if you are running away from answering one simple question because you do not want to discuss it with me, it speaks volumes about your ability to actually contest my thoughts without insulting me.


Absolutely. That is precisely my point. His arbitrary criteria is applied to what is or is not "impossible."

I did refute your argument. Several times. You just don't accept my refute. Hence this argument being pointless and me talking to an immoveable wall.

Wanted to just stop talking but kindly don't put words in my mouth.

Also "Ha ha ha... I know I'm right"

"Oh I have your answer... And you're not going to like it"

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Actually, believe it or not, I agree with you to an extent. While Nintendo at large treats her well, she has been largely forgotten within a Smash context. I doubt we will even get a costume this time around (just the ugly color swap) and that absolutely saddens me because I would love to play as Daisy.

Honestly. As an alt she's easy to do. You can change some of Peach's aesthics minorly and she'd still feel like Daisy.

And that's why I don't see her happening. If you can take a character and easily take their more popular equal in Smash and change their aesthics ever so slightly and they'd still feel like themselves.

Why are they worthy of that separate slot on the roster?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

It's truly amazing how many people refer to Pauline as a Mario character. It couldn't be more confirmed by her history and by Super Smash Bros that she's a DK character and it's like nobody even considers it.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Do you think it's possible that there was a deadline they had to realease the ballot character in and obtaining the rights to certain 3rd party characters would take too long, thus being unrealizable? I imagine getting the rights to use Bayonetta was very easy.

I played Mario RPG and I didn't see nothing incredible about Geno haha.

I don't understand why people want him in, but eh, I would not complain if he is in.

This is how I feel about Bandana Dee honestly.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Nintendo purposely does not refer to those things explictly in the Mario franchise. They leave it up to interpretation but they give each character basic traits. Mario characters are very flexible as a result, and are open to interpretation. Peach can pull out a Bob-omb or a Mr Saturn along with turnips...because she can.

Like, in Mario Run it isn’t explictly stated that Daisy sings the song, but it is implied through the statue.

If they leave it to interpretation then I say Daisy is just someone who escaped a mental institution and claims to be a princess who got kidnapped by an alien. Therefore she doesn't belong in Smash

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Do you guys want to talk about Fire Emblem? What about Celica and Alm?

 

[Morbi]

I did refute your argument. Several times. You just don't accept my refute. Hence this argument being pointless and me talking to an immoveable wall.

Wanted to just stop talking but kindly don't put words in my mouth.

Also "Ha ha ha... I know I'm right"

"Oh I have your answer... And you're not going to like it"

To be completely honest, I probably just failed to understand, or maybe you do not understand my point. If Bayonetta was only the top of realizable characters, that means that she was, to some extent, selected over someone else that was, most likely, achievable by definition and therefore the ballot is inherently rigged to some capacity.

 

[Pakky]

I keep thinking stuff like Battle Bond might replace Mega Evolution.

Also what makes Decuideye different from Incenaroar?

Other than Pokken Decuideye hasn't gotten any special treatment.

Both a great designs but no one from 7th as far as starters go gets much special treatment unlike the 6th with Greninja, who then goes into the 7th with even more stuff.

 

[RouffWestie]

Daisy and Waluigi haven't had any major roles in the most popular Mario games, so I doubt they would be considered for the roster. If the roster decision process became more open to side characters that have been around for a long time, they might stand a chance. Maybe after Toad gets in.

Or **** even Lip from Panel De Pon who would be a neat retro rep and has already been acknowledge multiple times by Sakurai would do better.

I think Daisy would be in long before Lip is even considered for an Assist Trophy.

 

[RosiePeaches]

Honestly. As an alt she's easy to do. You can change some of Peach's aesthics minorly and she'd still feel like Daisy.

And that's why I don't see her happening. If you can take a character and easily take their more popular equal in Smash and change their aesthics ever so slightly and they'd still feel like themselves.

Why are they worthy of that separate slot on the roster?

Well, why hasn’t it been done before? Well it is because Daisy actually does have differences to Peach in terms of personality and even playstyle in a lot of games. They aren’t even the same type anymore in Mario Tennis games. To put this in perspective Sakurai thought that Melee fans would not like it if Doctor Mario was an alt of Mario because of his differences in Melee. Why should the Daisy fans and the developers who worked on her in games who see her as different be ignored?

I can also bring the argument of characters who still haven’t been in for ages. Like Dixie Kong and King K Rool - characters who are not playable and have even less representation in the world of Nintendo and Smash than Daisy does (she got more trophies than the both of them combined) Is it because they are considered to be side characters in spinoffs (the DKC games to Mario) for example? I do not like these made up fan rules.

In the case of both of them, I can argue that Shantae would do the hair whipping better than Dixie, or that Bowser and King Deded are enough villians. Does that make my opinion right?

 

[Opossum]

Do you guys want to talk about Fire Emblem? What about Celica and Alm?

Love 'em both, but Celica is outright one of my favorite characters in the franchise. I think she has a fairly good shot for Smash, as well, mainly because the development timeline matched up really well with Smash's.

I think FE16 came around WAAAAAAAY too late to be a Greninja situation.

 

[Fenriraga]

To be completely honest, I probably just failed to understand, or maybe you do not understand my point. If Bayonetta was only the top of realizable characters, that means that she was, to some extent, selected over someone else that was, most likely, achievable by definition and therefore the ballot is inherently rigged to some capacity.

It's more the misuse of the word "Ballot". A ballot does not mean "election" by definition. A ballot is people choosing who or what they want for something else. Nothing states a ballot is voting for a definitive choice, in most cases it's a glorified opinion poll.

So no, there was nothing rigged. They took opinions and suggestions, and ultimately those suggestions with other contributing factors lead to Bayonetta. Nothing was rigged because they made no promises.

 

[Morbi]

I keep thinking stuff like Battle Bond might replace Mega Evolution.

Also what makes Decuideye different from Incenaroar?

Other than Pokken Decuideye hasn't gotten any special treatment.

I just want him for his move-set potential. A Ghost-Grass archer is more exciting to me than a Wrestler with a nasty case of fire crotch. Hopefully Pokken is the ticket, yet I somewhat doubt it.

Do you guys want to talk about Fire Emblem? What about Celica and Alm?

At risk of getting mauled by Alm fans, he is a bland character.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Here's achallenge.

Take each third party series represented in Smash and think of a new stage for each of them.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Do you guys want to talk about Fire Emblem?

Is this how far we've fallen?

 

[New_Dumal]

It's truly amazing how many people refer to Pauline as a Mario character. It couldn't be more confirmed by her history and by Super Smash Bros that she's a DK character and it's like nobody even considers it.

Just because the game is called "Donkey Kong", it doesn't mean that is not from the Mario franchise.
I don't know how Sakurai himself thinks about this, but I'm sure that majority of people remembers Donkey Kong >>as a franchise<< after the DK Country trilogy.
I'm awared that Sakurai loves the original Dk game more than the Country~post-Country era. It's a classic and it looks like that he feels responsible to represent everywhere possible. Oh "Donkey Kong"... the classic Mario game.

That being stated, Pauline's a Mario character, not a Dk one. You can even see her in the new Mario game, and Mario music/merchandising...Probably she doesn't even remember Dk at all. She mentions him in "Super Mario Odissey" ? I never played.

 

[Morbi]

It's more the misuse of the word "Ballot". A ballot does not mean "election" by definition. A ballot is people choosing who or what they want for something else. Nothing states a ballot is voting for a definitive choice, in most cases it's a glorified opinion poll.

So no, there was nothing rigged. They took opinions and suggestions, and ultimately those suggestions with other contributing factors lead to Bayonetta. Nothing was rigged because they made no promises.

Okay. I did not realize you were arguing semantics. Yes, I agree with you. Bayonetta was not the definitive winner by way of votes as a result of them treating it as a ballot.

Here's a question.

Take each third party series represented in Smash and think of a new stage for each of them.

Sonic: Chemical Plant.
Cloud: Shinra Corporation.
The Rest: I do not care.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Love 'em both, but Celica is outright one of my favorite characters in the franchise. I think she has a fairly good shot for Smash, as well, mainly because the development timeline matched up really well with Smash's.

I think FE16 came around WAAAAAAAY too late to be a Greninja situation.

Celiac could be a unique and interesting character in Smash.

 

[Fenriraga]

Here's a question.

Take each third party series represented in Smash and think of a new stage for each of them.

Oh boy oh boy actual fun discussions.

One question, does it have to be from the most-relevant part of said series? Like, it has to be a MegaMan Classic stage as opposed to X or BN or something of the sort. And if FF has to be from 7 because Cloud.

 

[RosiePeaches]

Daisy can't even get in as assist trophy to represent the very same spin-offs people call her to represent or as a proper alt for Peach though.

She has to beat at most Toad/Captain Toad, Waluigi, Paper Mario, Pauline, and **** even Geno at this point.

If she's in a line. She's at the back of it.

I can give reasons why Daisy would be in the front of the line.

• Toad/Captain Toad’s essence involves him not really fighting, but using the environment. He has been excluded from a lot of sports games for this reason.

• Waluigi, being scrawny and generally slower/less active than Daisy is could possible bring him down. Plus, he is less popular than she is in Japan especially (she also appears in more games). But I think he is the second most viable Mario representative.

• Geno is less relevant than Daisy, only being in one game.

• Pauline has never ever been playable in a Mario game ever, and her main thing in Odyssey is being a singer in the background.

• Mario Number 3 should absolutely stay away from Smash. Why three Marios? I would not be against him if he wasn’t Mario again, but he IS! Combined with the fact that Mario isn’t exactly starving of potential characters makes me skeptical of his chances.

• Daisy does not have the problems of not being able to jump or fight, has potential to really stand out with a flower and sports moveset that is energetic and encapsulates her character and history.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Oh boy oh boy actual fun discussions.

One question, does it have to be from the most-relevant part of said series? Like, it has to be a MegaMan Classic stage as opposed to X or BN or something of the sort. And if FF has to be from 7 because Cloud.

Nah

 

[Pakky]

I just want him for his move-set potential. A Ghost-Grass archer is more exciting to me than a Wrestler with a nasty case of fire crotch. Hopefully Pokken is the ticket, yet I somewhat doubt it.

I love him personally, both of them to me are great from all aspects. I just hope if we don't get someone from eight, he gets a Battle Bond like ability, in the 8th gen games. Because in the actual games Incenaroar is the only solid starter that can be used competitively in the higher ranks from gen seven and that's a shame. Decidueye has everything but good stats which sucks.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Is this how far we've fallen?

I don't get it.

 

[Cosmic77]

I've been watching this Bayo conversation. I'll just say one thing.


We don't have any evidence that a different "realizable" character did better than her, however, we also don't know all of the facts behind her getting chosen. The ballot ended in October 2015, and Bayo's trailer was shown off in December 2015. Unless Sakurai worked at godspeed, Bayo was decided on before the ballot ended. Would it have made a difference in the long run if Sakurai waited? Who knows?

Point is, no one can really flat-out say, "Bayo didn't win. The ballot was rigged." or "Bayo did win. She was the most popular character worldwide." There's just not enough evidence to support either argument.

That isn't my point. My point is that wanting to "complete the Mario princess trio" is dumb because Rosalina isn't a princess.

Sorry to geek out here, but it's heavily implied that Rosalina is a princess. Well, WAS a princess anyway. Her storybook depicted her and her family living in a castle.

There's also the SMG instruction booklet referring to Rosalina as a princess, but I'm not sure how reliable that is.

I agree with your argument, but what about Snake?

Snake?

Ehhh... I still think Snake stuck out a bit in Brawl, but I can at least appreciate how much they watered him down. Even with Brawl's darker tone, I don't think we needed a character running around with realistic handguns shooting at characters like Ness and Pikachu.