Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Luminario]

I wouldn't quite say that either. MK, as gory and violent as it, does have plenty of lighthearted goofy moments and some humor if still dark at times. Friendship, babalities, etc are what come to mind. I get what you mean though.

Right, I forgot the babalities and pre-fight interactions, some of them are pretty funny. It's still unbelievably gruesome and dark, much more than any other series in Smash, including Metal Gear Solid.

 

[FunAtParties]

If we're getting another fighting game character, it'll be Heihachi Sukapon.

Mortal Kombat most likely isn't on the table.

Made some changes. This is the timeline I'd like to live in.

Luminario Idk Bayonetta gets pretty gory

 

[Kirbeh]

Made some changes. This is the timeline I'd like to live in.

Luminario Idk Bayonetta gets pretty gory

Didn't Sakurai as far back as Melee confirm that there are some copyright issues going on with Sukapon or something to that effect? I'll need to check SG to confirm, but I know I read something like that or at least something similar at some point.

EDIT: Found it.

Spoiler

Sukapon: “Sukapon’s omission is purely a matter of financial and legal issues…For this game, we were planning to let characters get on Sukapon and ride around causing havoc, but it was cut.”

Pretty cut and dry: legal issues prevented Sukapon from being added, which likely means he was planned but immediately cut. Additionally, the bonus text for Sukapon was once on the Melee site, but it’s been removed and the archive doesn’t exist.

sauce

And lastly to just touch on Bayo real quick, it's still no where near on par with Mortal Kombat despite there being some gore present from time to time. Plenty of blood though.

 

[FunAtParties]

Didn't Sakurai as far back as Melee confirm that there are some copyright issues going on with Sukapon or something to that effect? I'll need to check SG to confirm, but I know I read something like that or at least something similar at some point.

He did say something about that, but he never went into detail. It's weird too, because as far as I know Joy Mech Fight is all Nintendo.

 

[Kirbeh]

He did say something about that, but he never went into detail. It's weird too, because as far as I know Joy Mech Fight is all Nintendo.

It is a rather strange case, but I doubt he was allowed to get into the details of it, or perhaps he was told no without knowing the full details and simply had to drop the idea since it was out of his hands. It's a shame since Sukapon would've made for an interesting retro rep, and this certainly puts it's chances into question since the issue has remained an unknown to this day.

Updated my prior post though. Found the SG article that touches on that, but it isn't much.

 

[FunAtParties]

It is a rather strange case, but I doubt he was allowed to get into the details of it, or perhaps he was told no without knowing the full details and simply had to drop the idea since it was out of his hands. It's a shame since Sukapon would've made for an interesting retro rep, and this certainly puts it's chances into question since the issue has remained an unknown to this day.

Updated my prior post though. Found the SG article that touches on that, but it isn't much.

The funny thing is Sukapon was supposed to be 'an item you ride around on', so he wasn't exactly going to do him any favors anyway. I honestly can't imagine how that would work, maybe he was confusing him for someone else...?

Every time I think about it, I imagine that he approaches all the creators around Nintendo to see if whatever he's doing with their stuff is okay with them, and when he got to JMF's creators and told them what he was planning to do they were just like 'What? Are you serious? No you can't do that.' and that was that.

 

[Deleted member]

http://nintendoeverything.com/kojima-discusses-how-snake-made-it-into-super-smash-bros-brawl/

There's a reason why Cloud's inclusion was so surprising.

To add to this, Sakurai once made this statement on Bayonetta:

Bayonetta 2 was also a Nintendo exclusive, so negotiations were very easy.

At first I thought this may have been tied to Nintendo themselves funding Bayo 2 and thus already having some rights to her, but this might relate to Kojima's statement on Snake's inclusion in Brawl and how Nintendo initially didn't want him in due to his association with Sony.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Luminario Idk Bayonetta gets pretty gory

Yes, but that gore is never done on a human.

Plus Mortal Kombat gets.... overboard with its gore.

 

[FunAtParties]

To add to this, Sakurai once made this statement on Bayonetta:



At first I thought this may have been tied to Nintendo themselves funding Bayo 2 and thus already having some rights to her, but this might relate to Kojima's statement on Snake's inclusion in Brawl and how Nintendo initially didn't want him in due to his association with Sony.

Then there's this

Specifically:

Sakurai: Which is why I think we should forget about console wars and focus on what’s really important: enjoying the games themselves.

This was in the Cloud interview. He seems to have changed his mind on the whole, they need to show up on Nintendo consoles, and not others- thing.

 

[Deleted member]

Then there's this

Specifically:


This was in the Cloud interview. He seems to have changed his mind on the whole, they need to show up on Nintendo consoles thing.

Sakurai also stated this in the same interview:

I might have had misgivings if Cloud had never appeared on a Nintendo console in any form, though.

 

[FunAtParties]

Sakurai also stated this in the same interview:

Fair enough.

 

[Deleted member]

But I'm sure he'll make an exception for Freddy, right?

Totally didn't need an excuse to post this gif again.

 

[Arcadenik]

Then there's this

Specifically:


This was in the Cloud interview. He seems to have changed his mind on the whole, they need to show up on Nintendo consoles, and not others- thing.

That... and Final Fantasy started out on the NES and SNES so it has history with Nintendo... and even though Final Fantasy VII was on the PS1 instead of the N64, one cannot deny how popular that game was and still is... adding Cloud to Smash really was a no-brainer.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That... and Final Fantasy started out on the NES and SNES so it has history with Nintendo...

Except that wasn't cited as a reason whatsoever.

It was that Square got a lot of requests and Cloud was the most popular.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I still think Cloud would've gotten in for who he is even if he had zero Nintendo cameo/appearances in general.

Remember, he did also state that being on a Nintendo system is more of a "bonus" of sorts. It helps, but isn't the sole dedicating factor. He also said, as noted. "might". Meaning that it would've slightly swayed his decision, but realistically, Cloud is a pretty huge gaming icon in his opinion. That's the biggest factor of all.

Think of it like this; he had some misgivings about Corrin too. His team convinced him otherwise. Likely would've been the case here. Now, while it's possible Cloud might not have gotten in if he had zero cameos/appearances, it's fairly unlikely that would've overall made him say no in the long run.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I think his importance outweighed the "Nintendo" factor.

 

[Arcadenik]

So... if a third party character never shows up on a Nintendo console but is still a huge gaming icon on its own right, could that be enough to get them in Smash?

 

[FunAtParties]

So... if a third party character never shows up on a Nintendo console but is still a huge gaming icon on its own right, could that be enough to get them in Smash?

Maybe...? But who is really left on the level of the characters that are already in? It's all down from here. I would think they'd have to be Sonic-esque in popularity to make it without a Nintendo appearance. Really outside of other 1st party characters (Master Chief) is there anyone on that level?

 

[Yellowlord]

A bit off topic from the current discussion, but King K. Rool seems to now be my most wanted 1st party newcomer (Isaac would be a close second in that category and the Inklings would be third in that category). Regarding K. Rool though, I still am curious to know what Retro's doing behind the scenes. Are they developing a new Donkey Kong Country game? Are they developing that AND a new Metroid at the same time? It's still an interesting question that may go unanswered for at least the next 2 months, but if K. Rool got into a new DKC, that would heavily increase his chances to where I'd be crazy not to implement him into Smash.

 

[FunAtParties]

A bit off topic from the current discussion, but King K. Rool seems to now be my most wanted 1st party newcomer (Isaac would be a close second in that category and the Inklings would be third in that category). Regarding K. Rool though, I still am curious to know what Retro's doing behind the scenes. Are they developing a new Donkey Kong Country game? Are they developing that AND a new Metroid at the same time? It's still an interesting question that may go unanswered for at least the next 2 months, but if K. Rool got into a new DKC, that would heavily increase his chances to where I'd be crazy not to implement him.

I so badly want them to be reviving Metroid, but I've been hurt before.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

So... if a third party character never shows up on a Nintendo console but is still a huge gaming icon on its own right, could that be enough to get them in Smash?

Is there a character that really fits that bill though? Master Chief or Kratos or someone along those lines I don't really see as THAT iconic. At least not on the levels of Cloud or, arguably, Snake.

The closest I can think of is Lara Croft? Dante? But even those two have showed up on Nintendo consoles so I really don't know if anyone fits that description at all...

 

[Luminario]

Honestly, the only character I can think of to be so iconic to get into Smash without needing to star in a Nintendo game is Cloud (and I mean STARRING here, not spin-offs or cameos like Theatrhythm or Kingdom Hearts) I still feel we should get a FF character that's iconic to Squares Nintendo era like White/Black mage alongside Cloud though.

 

[Arcadenik]

I'm partial to Cecil from FF 4 and Terra from FF 6. But I don't think we are getting a second Final Fantasy character. I think that if we get another Square Enix character, it might be a Dragon Quest character. I'm biased toward Hero from DQ 8. Oh, and Crono from Chrono Trigger might be a good addition. That game was huge back in the SNES days.

All this third party talk makes me want Simon Belmont in Smash even more!

 

[wildvine47]

Throwing my hat into the ring about Scorpion/Mortal Kombat representation here, I think he's not exactly as far off the table as most would think.

First things first, Bayonetta getting into Smash destroys entirely the "too violent/gory" argument. Bayo 1 and 2 have moments that absolutely rival anything MK's had to offer. For example, here's Bayonetta kicking an angel's head off so hard that it's spine gets ripped out of its body and goes flying off with the head (spoilered for courtesy)

Spoiler

and here's Bayonetta straight up ripping an angel's heart out just for kicks

Spoiler

Bayonetta is also a series where one of the enemies literally has an attack in which they **** Bayonetta, and afterwards she holds her butt in pain and the whole sequence is played for laughs. If Bayo can get in Smash with that stuff being in her franchise, Scorpion is absolutely fair game, especially considering he's had numerous appearances in videogames without a hint of blood, and he's been perfectly intact. Netherrealm clearly doesn't feel that blood and gore is integral to Scorpion if they themselves have done him twice without hide nor hair of it.

MKvsDC and his Injustice appearance both have bloodless Scorpion perfectly intact and still recognizable. His moveset practically writes itself. He can even have a Ryu-style gimmick by having command inputs from his game also perform their respective moves. Either that, or give him varying combos based on consecutive different button presses like MK's combo system. Fatalities, while definitely tricky, aren't impossible to work with in the slightest. In fact, Scorpion works out perfectly as a MK rep for Smash because his most iconic Fatality not only is the easiest to make age-appropriate, but it also has it's own almost-as-iconic line that can be used if Nintendo gets squeamish about the word Fatality itself. Good ol' classic Toasty. Instead of having the enemies turn into a skeleton, just have Scorp's big bout of flame send everyone flying, and play the Toasty soundbite. Done and done.

Scorpion and Mortal Kombat itself are also some of the most iconic gaming properties still not yet in Smash. Tons of people who have never even touched an MK game know who Scorpion and Sub-Zero are just at a glance, and just as many people will know "Finish Him!" and "Fatality" as among the most iconic quotes in all of gaming. To say Mortal Kombat isn't a big or recognizable part of gaming history is lunacy, and with MKX holding the title of second best selling fighting game launch of ALL TIME (source: https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2015...e-talk-about-why-s-outstanding-news-everyone/) , as well as one of the best selling titles from 2015 as a whole, it's clearly not stopping anytime soon. And that's not even mentioning it's still-growing competitive scene. Anyone who says Mortal Kombat isn't both now and then a beloved and important franchise is willingly ignoring the facts. It's even got quite a bit of a history with Nintendo, having a game on literally every console of theirs from the SNES all the way up to the Wii, and the SNES versions of the original trilogy were actually the best-selling versions of each. It's Nintendo track record is better than Street Fighter's even, and we saw how that turned out.

And one thing that I don't see brought up nearly enough when talking about Scorpion is the fact that Ed Boon, Scorpion's creator himself, wants to see him in Smash Bros.:

"@ChrisRivarola @noobde Admit it, you also want Scorpion in super smash bros EB: NO WAY! ... well, maybe just a little. OK you're right! ;)

— Ed Boon (@noobde) April 9, 2015

Combine that with Smash's penchant for making dreamed-of battles like Mario vs. Sonic, Link vs. Cloud, and Samus vs. Megaman come true, and why shouldn't it add the ever-desired Ryu vs. Scorpion to it's checklist?

To be frank, I think the biggest and only thing preventing Scorpion's entrance to the franchise is it's lack of Japanese popularity and the general pessimism regarding his chances, but considering how abysmally Bayo's games sold there (source: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/despite-glowing-bayonetta-2-reviews-sales-in-japan/1100-6422548/), it's clearly not an impossibility. And as Sakurai's said before, some characters like Little Mac do get added for the western fanbase. All Scorpion would need is to get a little bit more demand for him drummed up, and he could very well make it.

tl;dr: Scorpion and Mortal Kombat are some of the most important, historic, and prominent gaming icons that haven't shown up in Smash yet, and I believe Scorpion is more of a possibility and a deserving addition than people give him credit for.

Also his reveal splash screen should absolutely be "Scorpion tests his might!"

#ScorpionForSmash

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

Yeah. I think the next best thing, at least for me, would be individualized per series.

I want a Target Smash stage with Mario series theme, another one with a Zelda series theme, and so on... and all characters can break targets in all of them. How many series with playable characters are there in SSB4?






That's 28 Target Smash stages. Melee had 25. I think that's doable.

That's a great idea, hopefully it happens.

While we are on the subject of Scorpion, what are your thoughts on Ryu Hayabusa?

Would Tecmo Koei make the move in promoting their iconic ninja?

I would be fine with him getting in. Not sure how likely he is.

 

[Arcadenik]

How do you feel if half of the SSB5 newcomers are Nintendo characters and the other half are third party characters? For example, 10 Nintendo newcomers and 10 third party newcomers.

Let's see... Brawl had 16 Nintendo newcomers and 2 third party newcomers (or about 10% of newcomers)... then SSB4 had 16 Nintendo newcomers and 5 third party newcomers (or about 24% of newcomers).

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Iconic characters that were never on a Nintendo system?

Well aside from the obvious Master Cheif and a few characters that are in this game

the only ones that come to mind are Marcus Fenix, Gordan Freeman, Heavy, Chell, Tracer, Vault Boy, John Marshton, and I guess some characters from GTA and Boarderlands are iconic, but I don't think these characters I listed are anywhere near as iconic as the ones in Smash (aside from Bayonetta).

Another thing to note is that these characters are only really popular in the west. Japan doesn't really care about them.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah. I think the next best thing, at least for me, would be individualized per series.

I want a Target Smash stage with Mario series theme, another one with a Zelda series theme, and so on... and all characters can break targets in all of them. How many series with playable characters are there in SSB4?






That's 28 Target Smash stages. Melee had 25. I think that's doable.

To the topic of iconic third-party characters who still are not in Smash, I think people underrate Lara Croft.

 

[Deleted member]

To be frank, I think the biggest and only thing preventing Scorpion's entrance to the franchise is it's lack of Japanese popularity and the general pessimism regarding his chances, but considering how abysmally Bayo's games sold there (source: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/despite-glowing-bayonetta-2-reviews-sales-in-japan/1100-6422548/), it's clearly not an impossibility. And as Sakurai's said before, some characters like Little Mac do get added for the western fanbase. All Scorpion would need is to get a little bit more demand for him drummed up, and he could very well make it.

Bayonetta isn't a good example since she won the ballot fair and square, regardless of poor sales. Also, I don't think it's fair to compare Japanese first party characters like Little Mac with primarily western followings to western third party characters like Scorpion with limited Japanese exposure.

 

[wildvine47]

Bayonetta isn't a good example since she won the ballot fair and square, regardless of poor sales. Also, I don't think it's fair to compare Japanese first party characters like Little Mac with primarily western followings to western third party characters like Scorpion with limited Japanese exposure.

The point with Bayonetta was that a series's lack of notoriety in Japan doesn't mean it's dead in the water. Bayo winning the European ballot and then getting into Smash is evidence that Japanese popularity isn't the be-all end-all. Little Mac was more for a direct example of Sakurai looking to western gamers, but overall I admit Scorpion's in a real odd spot. There's not really a good point of comparison for him for those regards so I tried to make do with what's we do have ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Curious Villager]

If we can't have an individual Target Smash, I wouldn't mind seeing a stage builder type variant of it where we can build our own target Smash stages, heck, you may even bring back board the platforms with it while your at it, and maybe even race to the finish as well. Maybe even have the ability to restrict each level to a certain character if you want.

Perhaps you could maybe even mix the three modes together and being able to do all three at the same time if you wanted to, so breaking all targets and boarding all platforms before the exit opens and you can finish the stage. Just throwing some ideas around.

I liked recreating some of the past target test stages in Smash Wii U's stage builder so perhaps expanding a little on that would probably be pretty cool to see imo.

 

[Deleted member]

If we can't have an individual Target Smash, I wouldn't mind seeing a stage builder type variant of it where we can build our own target Smash stages, heck, you may even bring back board the platforms with it while your at it, and maybe even race to the finish as well. Maybe even have the ability to restrict each level to a certain character if you want.

Perhaps you could maybe even mix the three modes together and being able to do all three at the same time if you wanted to, so breaking all targets and boarding all platforms before the exit opens and you can finish the stage. Just throwing some ideas around.

I liked recreating some of the past target test stages in Smash Wii U's stage builder so perhaps expanding a little on that would probably be pretty cool to see imo.

These last 48 hours were definitely an enlightment of our inner geniuses.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Even if Nintendo and Sakurai have no problems with Scorpion being in Smash we're probably still more likely to see this fighting game character make it into Smash first.

(No not Ryu, just watch the clip).

 

[Deleted member]

Thinking of the Animal Crossing topic earlier, do you think and should get swapped to their current New Leaf designs?:

(inb4 they'd get nerfed because they're taller)

 

[FunAtParties]

Thinking of the Animal Crossing topic earlier, do you think and should get swapped to their current New Leaf designs?:

(inb4 they'd get nerfed because they're taller)

The City Folk designs are my favorite, so I hope they don't ditch them completely.
I personally think they should keep them short, but include designs over the series' history.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Let's see what Fighting game characters could get in Smash.

On the Street Fighter front, if there were to ever be more than one character per series, I'd say Chun-li.
Tekken would most likely Heichatchi as he seems to be the face of the series these days.
Soul Calibur would either be Mistrugi or Nightmare.
Mortal Kombat (in a dream world anyway) would definitely be Scorpion.
Dead or Alive (probably also in a dream world) would be Ayane or Ryu Hayabusa. Poor Kasumi gets no love these days, only evil clones.
Virtua Fighter likley be Akira, though definetly not in his white gii as long as Ryu of Street Fighter is around.
Darkstalkers would be Morrigan. Hey, if Bayonetta get in...

I'd need someone with more knowledge on SNK's games to tell me who the King of Fighters rep would be though.

 

[PsychoJosh]

KOF rep would be Kyo Kusanagi or Iori, most likely.

I don't see any of these characters getting in however, least of all Mortal Kombat.

 

[Megadoomer]

Let's see what Fighting game characters could get in Smash.

On the Street Fighter front, if there were to ever be more than one character per series, I'd say Chun-li.
Tekken would most likely Heichatchi as he seems to be the face of the series these days.
Soul Calibur would either be Mistrugi or Nightmare.
Mortal Kombat (in a dream world anyway) would definitely be Scorpion.
Dead or Alive (probably also in a dream world) would be Ayane or Ryu Hayabusa. Poor Kasumi gets no love these days, only evil clones.
Virtua Fighter likley be Akira, though definetly not in his white gii as long as Ryu of Street Fighter is around.
Darkstalkers would be Morrigan. Hey, if Bayonetta get in...

I'd need someone with more knowledge on SNK's games to tell me who the King of Fighters rep would be though.

Either Terry Bogard or Kyo Kusanagi seem like the most likely. Kyo's the face of the King of Fighters series (SNK's big crossover fighting game franchise), while Terry is (as far as I know) the face of the company as a whole. Personally, I'd like to see Rugal Bernstein, given that SNK is known for having ridiculously difficult final bosses and he seems to be especially famous for that, but the first two seem way more likely.

 

[Staarih]

Thinking of the Animal Crossing topic earlier, do you think and should get swapped to their current New Leaf designs?:
(inb4 they'd get nerfed because they're taller)

I think it would be fun if they kept up with the most recent variant of the characters. So the "newest" Villager designs would be cool to see.

I was hoping for Link and Zelda to get their Skyward Sword designs for Smash 4 but I guess they kept the TP looks to keep up with Sheik and Ganondorf who don't have new looks. However I do still hope for BotW updates for Link and Zelda for the next Smash, even if Sheik and Ganondorf don't (yet again) have new looks - maybe those two can have updated designs based on Hyrule Warriors or whataver.

Other characters which could have different default looks in a future Smash game could be a Wii Fit Trainer (with Wii Fit U's green shirt) and I guess some of the FE characters if their looks are updated in any future games. I'm not familiar with Star Fox Zero if any of the SF characters got updated looks but that's an option too. Don't think any others have had any major changes though (if Bayonetta 3 happens then that's another one).

 

[Arcadenik]

I was hoping for Link and Zelda to get their Skyward Sword designs for Smash 4 but I guess they kept the TP looks to keep up with Sheik and Ganondorf who don't have new looks. However I do still hope for BotW updates for Link and Zelda for the next Smash, even if Sheik and Ganondorf don't (yet again) have new looks - maybe those two can have updated designs based on Hyrule Warriors or whataver.

Well, maybe Sheik could be updated to look like this.

And maybe Ganondorf could be updated to look like this.

Ganondorf's muscular hairy chest would be glorious!

Yes... something like this.

Spoiler: Ganondorf in Desert Voe Armor Set

 

[Luminario]

I don't think we can compare Bayo's and MK's gore. Bayo's gore is centered around angels and demons, some looking pretty beastly. Even humanoid ones such as Joy and Alraune still has an inhuman look. Meanwhile, MK has actual humans in it, humans that can get sawed in half and get their heads crushed and such (I still feel ill watching those fatalities). Bayo 2 was also Nintendo exclusive, so MK is a franchise with 1) no Nintendo exclusives with 2) severely gory games and 3) where gory fatalities are the iconic aspect of it, and we can't be sure if Nintendo wants to associate Smash with such a franchise with marks against it like that.

Thinking of the Animal Crossing topic earlier, do you think and should get swapped to their current New Leaf designs?:

(inb4 they'd get nerfed because they're taller)

I'd say this is a pretty likely scenario unless the game's just a port. the new proportions are being advertised instead of the old ones in the AC games and games like Mario Kart, so it's only a matter of time till they're changed in Smash too. They also look so much better too.

Well, maybe Sheik could be updated to look like this.

And maybe Ganondorf could be updated to look like this.

Ganondorf's muscular hairy chest would be glorious!

Yes... something like this.

Spoiler: Ganondorf in Desert Voe Armor Set

I am here for bare chested Ganondorf, it's what we truly deserve.