Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Bradli Wartooth]

I didn't watch the whole invitational. Did anyone consider Cloud broken? Did anyone even play him? I know he's playable on the showfloor, so what's up with him?

Our eyes are locked on Bayo right now. From what I saw Cloud isn't much different from Smash 4.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Just saw father Sakuria see the BnB off the top from Bayonetta and shake his head.

It's not the final build yet...#SmashBrosUltimate

— Bear (@BearUNLV) June 12, 2018

How can you be the head of the balance team in Smash 4 and not know Bayonetta's bread and butter combos? Is this real? Did he really not know? I feel so confused right now lol.

He probably did something about it, but didn't think that a large character (Ridley) would get destroyed on a stage with a low ceiling (Green Greens).

 

[UltimateWario]

I watched the last match of the tourney, loved how fast everything looked. Shame to hear that Bayo is still stupidly broken, didn't play Smash 4 so I didn't ever experience her first hand. Was kind of just expecting to buy this because of Ridley but if the metagame is impressive I might actually enjoy this one all around. Can't believe how much of a 180 my opinion of this game has made today. I'm really genuinely surprised how good it looks.

Watch the next game be a reboot since this is likely Sakurai's last Smash and Ridley gets ****ing cut.

 

[ninthetic]

wait i forgot there is rules here i probably shouldn't refer to that

im dead thats my point

 

[FantasyBlade]

I'm genuinely surprised there wasn't a character reveal during the tournament, but we should remember, in that Smash interview Bill Trinen said they're saving some surprises for later, so I expect at least a few more newcomers.

 

[Chandeelure]

The only thing I didn't like about this game is that everytime you hit a character a giant cloud of white smoke appears, like, why too much smoke.

It's obviously minor, but I still wanted to say it.

 

[Nani?]

Also, thoughts on Bomberman being an assist trophy? Probably just me, but I think he works better as an assist trophy than a fighter.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I didn't see any Zelda gameplay today between Treehouse and the Invitational She's the character I was most excited about from the reveals today. Hopefully they'll show her more tomorrow.

 

[RedMarf78]

Just a quick note while watching the invitational. Anyone else notice the obscene knockback speed? When compared with the knockback distance, it doesn't look quite right. Also, it's definitely gonna affect the combo game. Hopefully this isn't a permanent thing.

Yup, me, and a bunch of other people in this thread, noticed the weird knockback. It seems that characters move really fast when they first get hit, but then the speed rapidly tapers off (basically increasing deceleration)

 

[Iridium]

Everything new from smashbros.com and bit from E3 (echo fighter=clone):
General
Air dodging from Melee (NOT brawl/4) with 2 big changes:
1. No freefall, however most likely can only be used once
2. (Presumably) Instead of landing diagonal airdodges sliding you, they probably halt momentum and have standard landing lag.
Seemingly floatier than 4 (though not certain)
Seems to be good for casuals (like Brawl) while still retaining competitive viability (like Melee), to deliver an experience that leans more towards both ends at once than Sm4sh.
Damage increased during 1v1s

Fighters
Mario (01)
- New Taunts (Cappy, Thumbs Up)
- New Alts (Mario Maker, Wedding)
DK (02)
- New Final Smash (Extremely long jab combo before finishing with a deadly punch)
- Charged Giant Punch now has the Power Hit animation (like KO Punch, zooms in with lines to indicate power while the background turns dark blue)
Link (03)
- Design Updated (now matches BoTW)
- Down B Sprite Updated (now a remote bomb)
- New Final Smash (ancient arrow from BoTW)
Samus (04)
- Can charge Charge Shot in the Air (courtesy of Murlough )
Yoshi (05)
- Egg Throw now bounces off the ground (courtesy of @YoshiandToad)
- Grab animation significantly changed (courtesy of @Zinith)
Kirby (06)
- Fully Charged Hammer now has the Power Hit Animation
- New Rock: Chest from BoTW
Fox (07)
N/A (but Krystal is either an assist or newcomer (probably the former))
Pikachu (08)
- New Nair (strikes a pose while charging self with electricity)
- Thunder makes Pikachu turn bright yellow when hit
- Volt Tackle (final smash) is now a fast combo, similar to the final smashes of Greninja, Ike, etc.
- New Alts: Pikachu Libre, Female Pokémon Trainer Pikachu
Luigi (09)
- Up-B sweetspot has the Power Hit Animation
- New Combo: DAir -> UTilt -> FTilt (or maybe even an Up-B, from the proximity)
Ness (10)
- New Grab: Holds onto opponents with PSI
- New Pummel: Charges opponents with PSI (a very slow pummel)
- PK Thunder Self-Hit hitbox now has the Power Hit Animation
- PK Starstorm: Projectiles move slowly however swarm the screen, and gets characters from EarthBound (don't know their names rip) that know PK Starstorm to help him cast it
Captain Falcon (11)
- Falcon Punch: Gained the Power Hit Animation, now has a MASSIVE vertical hitbox shaped like a pheonix
Jigglypuff (12)
- Rest: Gained the Power Hit Animation
- Puff Up: Now has an angry face when puffing up
Peach (13)
- Toad helps her when using her grab
- Not on website, but since Mario and Daisy have wedding alts, I'm guessing Peach does too
Daisy (13 Echo)
- Peach clone with minor animation differences:
- Uses Blue Toad
- Has daisies instead of hearts
Bowser (14)
- Down Tilt: Now trips
- Giga Bowser: Warps behind the stage, a crosshair appears, and when you press A, wherever it is you punch and screen KO anyone there (at any percent)
Ice Climbers (15)
- Belay: Now has a blue rope
- Nana: Now hops on the spot panicking when Popo is grabbed, no longer making Popo immune to grabs
Sheik (16)
- Not sure if this is in Smash 4, but Up-B has a fire effect
Zelda (17)
- Model is re-designed
- Down-B: Now shows the Phantom being assembled when charging
- Final Smash: Changed to Triforce of Wisdom (Pulls enemies into the Triforce of Wisdom, which then explodes into light)
- Din's Fire: No longer causes freefall
Dr. Mario (18)
- New DAir: Thrusts legs down to spike the opponent
- Doctor Tornado: Now either has a bigger hitbox and/or more priority (which relates to damage)
- No longer a clone due to new moves
Pichu (19)
- New Move: Shocks an opponent, stunning them (could be neutral B, side B or down tilt)
- Final Smash: Identical to that of Pikachu
- No longer a clone due to new moves
- New Combo (maybe): USmash->Thunder (courtesy of Murlough )
Falco (20)
N/A
Marth (21)
- Dancing Blade: Now strikes much faster
- Shield Breaker: Can be angled, power hit animation if it hits a shield
Lucina (21 Echo)
Same as Marth
Young Link (22)
- New final smash, not shown
- No longer a clone due to link reworks
Ganondorf (23)
- Model updated to look like Melee
- Warlock Punch now has the power hit animation
- New FSmash: Swings a sword overhead in a broad, heavy, slow swing for massive damage
Mewtwo (24)
N/A
Roy (25)
- Charged Neutral B has the power hit animation and can be reversed before the attack
Mr. Game & Watch (26)
- All his attacks turn him into the characters from the game it's based on (Chef turns him into the chef, Judge turns him into the judge, etc.)
- Final Smash is now a command grab that carries foes into the blast zone
Meta Knight (27)
- DThrow is slower
- Shuttle Loop does almost no knockback on the second hit (just a happy thing for Sm4sh players)
Pit (28)
- New Final Smash: Stuns nearby foes, then Pit flies off on a chariot with winged horses and a crosshair appears. Wherever it is when A is pressed, Pit will charge through the enemy.
Dark Pit (28 Echo)
N/A
Zero Suit Samus (29)
- Can now infinitely wall jump with Flip Kick
Wario (30)
- Max Waft has Power Hit effect
- Dash Attack changed to Brawl F-Smash (courtesy of Murlough )
- Final Smash: Wario-Man is now a short animation of him beating up nearby foes before launching them.
Snake (31)
N/A (though I like his child-friendly grab)
Ike (32)
- Fully Charged Eruption shoots a massive column of blue flame and has the power hit animation
Pokémon Trainer (33-35)
- Zard is back on Trainer
- NO MORE TERRIBLE MECHANICS! YAY! No more stamina (solo mains are viable), no more type effectiveness
- Changing Pokémon makes you intangible, being a quick and useful dodge
- Female Trainer Alts (may or may not already be in)
- Probably new specials for Ivysaur (Up-Bs aren't tethers anymore)
Diddy Kong (36)
- New Taunt
Lucas (37)
- PK Starstorm updated to match that of Ness
Sonic (38)
- Super Sonic now matches Pikachu's final smash
- Knuckles is either an assist or newcomer (probably the former)
King Dedede (39)
- Can inhale and spit gordos (the gordos do NOT turn into stars)
Olimar (40)
N/A
Lucario (41)
N/A (however new combo: FAir->FAir->FAir)
R.O.B. (42)
- DThrow: Now buries
Toon Link (43)
N/A (New Combo: UTilt->DAir->Grab)
Wolf (44)
N/A
Villager (45)
N/A
Mega Man (46)
- 2 more characters in Final Smash
Wii Fit Trainer (47)
N/A
Rosalina (48)
- New NAir (courtesy of Murlough )
- I assume from Icies that Luma can't attack if Rosa is being grabbed
Little Mac (49)
- The buff EVERY Mac player was waiting for, Jolt no longer triggers helplessness (at least on the ground)
- KO punch now gives vertical momentum
- Can turn around before Straight Lunge
- Probably new Final Smash, as they changed EVERY SINGLE transformation Final Smash
Greninja (50)
N/A
Miis (51-53)
- New customs
Palutena (54)
- Has Explosive Custom Side Special from 4 (courtesy of Murlough )
-
Pac-Man (55)
- Hydrant: Hitting water will cancel the windbox
- Final Smash: No longer controlled by player, instead Pac-Man dashes across the screen
Robin (56)
-Elwind: Can be angled
Shulk (57)
- Monado Arts: After 1 cycle, shows a wheel with all 5 monado arts
Bowser Jr. (58)
- Not sure if this was in Smash 4, but FTilt (tongue) eats items
- Final Smash hits much faster
Duck Hunt (59)
N/A
Ryu (60)
N/A
Cloud (61)
- Cross Slash's slashes are now very thin
- Can only have a limit charge for 15 seconds before losing it (courtesy of Murlough , confirmed by Tweek)
Corrin (62)
N/A
Bayonetta (63)
- Can no longer get 2 after burner kicks (?)
- Grab is now magical, suspending opponents with black magic.
- Witch time duration modified, either based off countered attack's KB or damage (courtesy of Murlough )
Inklings (64)
- All alts are different models
- Most attacks give foes Ink (presumably slowing movement speed and/or increasing launch rates)
- Neutral? Special (or maybe it works like Megaman's pellets): Shoots a short stream of ink with the Splattershot
- Side? Special: Pulls out a Splat Roller and rolls over foes, burying them
- Final Smash: Pulls out the Sonic Boom (or whatever it's called) and blasts foes
Ridley (65)
-Neutral Special: Shoots a bouncing fireball. Charge to shoot tons at a time.
-Side Special: Dashes forward, grabbing nearby foes and dragging them along the ground for massive damage and knockback.
-Up Special: Flies in a given direction. Think a purple version of Pit's Up-B but with more startup.
-Down Special: Charges up (for maybe 20 frames?), before releasing his tail like a spear. Normally deals 1%, however has a sweetspot at the tip that deals 50%, triggers the powerful hit animation, and causes an opponent to fall over (as if they were impaled). 50% is enough to break any shield in 4, so be careful.
-Final Smash: Throws foes onto the side of a ship, then blows up the ship with a giant fiery death ray, KO'ing any on-board foes.

For Sheik, you should note how her Burst Grenade does not leave her helpless, similarly to Zelda with Din's Fire.

 

[N3ON]

Also, thoughts on Bomberman being an assist trophy? Probably just me, but I think he works better as an assist trophy than a fighter.

Better a character than an Assist Trophy.

Better an Assist Trophy than nothing.

 

[KatKit]

I just logged in to say that I cried. That trailer brought a tear to my eye. They're really trying to cater to as many fans as possible. The amount of effort and love in this game is phenomenal. Everything led up this moment. Everyone is brought back. We kept talking about who's getting cut this time and whatnot, but they are coming back. Good Lord, I didn't know how much I wanted this until today. Welcome back Ivysaur, Pichu, Snake, Wolf, Ice Climber, Young Link, etc. mains. Heck, welcome back people that prefer skinny Ike. Welcome. back. everyone!

Also, congrats Ridley fans. He's big, but he's in. They did it. They really did it.

 

[RandomAce]

Also side note, I like how when you’re starting a match, there’s this thing with the characters poppin up and the eyes shining.

Also did any one notice how UNREAL Engine 4 was in the copyright at the end of the video. I’d be surprised if Nintendo is using Unreal engine 4 for this game.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I didn't watch the whole invitational. Did anyone consider Cloud broken? Did anyone even play him? I know he's playable on the showfloor, so what's up with him?

Cloud actually seems to have been nerfed considerably.

If he doesn't use Limit Break in under 15 seconds then it disappears. Limit Breaks also deal recoil damage iirc.

 

[Just a random scrub]

HOLY ****ING ****!

My computer finished updating early, so I got to watch the direct today, and..... oh my god, now I understand COMPLETELY why they held off the news for so long. Let me put it this way. My body was NOT ready. AT ALL. H-O-L-Y ****, I'm having trouble processing it all..... (if you couldn't tell, this direct gave me a boner)

(takes a few deep breaths) Ok.... Okay...... oh......ok.....ay....... Okay. I didn't know what I was expecting when I entered this E3, but this....... this wasn't even damn close. Not at all. Okay, I'll do my thoughts slowly.....

First off, everyone's coming back! Oh my god, YES! I thought this was impossible, and would never happen..... but it did! These visuals all look so fresh, all, or at least most of the stages coming back....... I can die happy. We... we do not deserve this. Papa Sakurai, you're spoiling us.

Even better, so many things in here is stuff I've wanted to see but thought I'd never see: Melee air dodge, more realistic artstyle for most characters (could have gone a bit farther, but ehhh), SNAKE COMING BACK, ICE CLIMBERS, WOLF, so much more I can't even remember now.......... I can't stop pinching myself, because deep down, I know this is just a dream.

Some stuff still kinda disappointing me (like Daisy and Ridley, but I'm very happy for their fans), but let me tell ya; I bet just as many dreams were shattered. Like, when I saw Daisy, I was like "well, maybe Waluigi can still be in....." And then, he was the very first assist trophy shown. And now, as a hardcore Waluigi supporter, I can say....... that hurt. That ****ing hurt.

 

[Bladeviper]

He probably did something about it, but didn't think that a large character (Ridley) would get destroyed on a stage with a low ceiling (Green Greens).

yeah it kinda looked like zero was not getting caught in it nearly as bad

 

[KingIceSonic]

I like the fact that they are bringing everyone back but my only problem is Pichu and Young Link. I wish they touched them up a bit to at least make them semi clone status like Wolf or something. At least Link was changed a little bit(But then Young Link is just a Toon Link now)

Also, I don't like that Pokemon trainer is back, I wished they were seperate. I know that it is cool to be able to switch on the fly but I will miss Charizard having a Down B

 

[Questionmark222]

Okay, given what Sakurai said about newcomers, how many extra newcomers do you expect?

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Cloud actually seems to have been nerfed considerably.

If he doesn't use Limit Break in under 15 seconds then it disappears. Limit Breaks also deal recoil damage iirc.

Wait REALLY? That's actually kinda cool. I never found Cloud to be a major problem even though he was clearly a cut above most characters. I think the time limit on Limit is good, but recoil damage is kinda meh if that's a thing.

 

[Dee Dude]

Okay, given what Sakurai said about newcomers, how many extra newcomers do you expect?

3 or 4.

 

[UltimateWario]

Also, thoughts on Bomberman being an assist trophy? Probably just me, but I think he works better as an assist trophy than a fighter.

I understand where they're coming from, though. There are a ton of people STILL saying "Ridley was better as a boss" but I completely disagree, he looks fun as hell. Honestly, though, an Assist Trophy is probably the best Bomberman can hope for. It's sad but at least he's here. Maybe if we were getting this game back in the N64 days he would've had a solid chance.

 

[SquashiniKun]

Okay, given what Sakurai said about newcomers, how many extra newcomers do you expect?

8 more newcomers, at most.

 

[Zinith]

One thing I still want answers for....

Why the **** were Luigi and Yoshi revealed last?!!! What's up with that?!!!

 

[Chandeelure]

Sakurai: I saw 3 bugs I need to go fix

Translation: pic.twitter.com/D18uEOs0rM

— Tylor (@theSirToasty) June 12, 2018

Bayonetta Bottom Tier confirmed.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It's still kinda possible as long as you don't hit the "change pokemon" button. The Pokemon won't have the stamina mechanic anymore so you can play as the 'Zard for as long as you want.

Unfortunately, it seems that if Charizard gets KO'd, you'd respawn as Squirtle, so in that scenario, you'd have to do two Pokemon Changes if you want to use Charizard again.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I'm still betting on at least two more characters in base.

Long time from now until December...

 

[Murlough]

-_-

I'm fully aware of how each game's mechanic's work. I'm not ignorant to how Smash works. How exactly are power shields different? We still don't know the frame data. They still look like they come out on frame three, and have seven frames of end lag for putting away shield. I have been a competitive player, but don't like Smash 4. We got the first look of the game, all for a couple of hours, with none of us knowing absolutely anything about frame data. And no hands on experience. You're attacking me based off something completely anecdotal, and no statistics to back your claims.

I'm fully aware the meta can shift towards a more punish based one given some of the changes. I intend on keeping up with it, but so far everything I do see isn't enough to warrant a change in mindset. It still looks slow. Recoveries across the board, from what I have seen are strong. Momentum doesn't look like it carries over either. I saw all of one instance of ZeRo dash dancing against MKLeo, and it could be in for all I know, but that could have been frame perfect pivots for all I know. If it does, then that's awesome. Something I wanted.

Also wavedashing seems rather meh for anyone wanting to know.
https://twitter.com/PG_SamuraiPanda/status/1006622730404311040

I didn't attack you at all. I was being rude for sure but I wasn't "attacking" you. I try to be as blunt as possible. It's who I am and I won't apologize for being that way. I do apologize for making you feel attacked, though.

Anyway from the game-play videos I watched Power-shielding seems to occur AFTER you press shield, not before. The way it seems to work appears to be the frame the opponents attack leaves the shield, the shielding player lets go and can immediately act out of shield. I could be wrong since its been a few hours since I looked at it but I'll watch again in a sec.

Tbf they aren't playing it like its Ultimate. They are trying to play it like the Smash games they knew. There is no telling based on how long they have had to work with the game to figure out anything deep. The game may be basically Smash 4. I would say it definately isn't based on everything I've seen so far but we'll see.

Recoveries look hello good, which means some characters that were terrible due to bad recovery have been buffed pretty nicely. Duck Hunt and Little Mac are lookin' good! Maybe R.O.B. too? I'm sure this helped balance the cast a little at least.

Yeah, wavedashing doesn't seem to be a thing really. Oh well.

 

[Originality]

Okay, given what Sakurai said about newcomers, how many extra newcomers do you expect?

5-6 at most, at least for base roster
Edit: oops forgot to add the quote

 

[Questionmark222]

8 more newcomers, at most.

Yeah, I pretty much expect the same. But given that maaaaaany popular candidates were disconfirmed (Bomberman, Waluigi, Takamaru, Sheriff...) I really wonder who the final newcomers will be.

 

[Zeox]

We got from having not info at all of the game to having so much info that we aren't able to talk about everything right now.

 

[RedMarf78]

My first thought when I saw Ridley was "his hitbox is going to be so weird"

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I'm unreasonably hyped to play as Pichu.

 

[Deleted member]

So, earlier today, someone on GameFAQS asked where Simon Belmont was and he said “Just be patient. There’s still more reveals to come before release”. This suggests he’ll be revealed later.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76694154/903083982

 

[NeonBurrito]

Smash Ultimate is not a port, but this Grand Finals feels like it was ported straight from Smash 4 lol.

I'm late but I agree 100%.
I like how the game is faster, but there's still a lot to be desired in terms of character balance (top tiers are near identical to Smash 4's) and gameplay factors (not a huge fan of how knockback just stops halfway through being launched, blast zones seem WAY too far out, people were surviving at 100% even when hit by Smash attacks).

I'm not even a huge Melee guy, I just want Ultimate to differentiate itself more from Smash 4. I'm glad Sakurai is on the job to fix those things though.

 

[blackghost]

bayo had her witch twist shrunk but besides that if the game is inherently more offensive she will improve with the engine.
net yes she has ladder combos but bayo comboing a big character is hardly anything new. and leo did that to a melee player that clearly had no idea what to do.

sheik looking good tho. like really good.

 

[Wyoming]

They still have 6 months to release this game. They'll definitely want to hype it up during that time.

The newcomers are coming. They probably got a lot of veterans on the ballot and thus decided to please everyone for this E3 and had Ridley as the cherry on top of the cake. Fitting for the series' 20th anniversary.

 

[Garteam]

Regarding Simon not being shown at the inventional; keep in mind Pac-man wasn't shown at the inventional or direct in 2014. There's still 2 more days of E3, plenty of time for another character to show up.

 

[KingIceSonic]

One thing I still want answers for....

Why the **** were Luigi and Yoshi revealed last?!!! What's up with that?!!!

Hey at least they buffed Yoshi. His eggs now bounce instead of just exploding

Okay, given what Sakurai said about newcomers, how many extra newcomers do you expect?

Maximum of 10 total(And this is setting the Bar high

I expect 3 more full newcomers and maybe 2-3 more echo

 

[UltimateWario]

I was noticing this weird thing how Ridley would get blasted out but then suddenly be right back to falling, I can definitely see the crazy deceleration with knockback and it's really weird. I'd imagine it'll get fixed up before release though. Or if not, we'll just have to work around it. Honestly I think the game would benefit from the same system that Octopath used, where they released a demo and asked for feedback. Monitor character wins and analyze characters with HUGE win ratios.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

Someone gave the suggestion that Sora be an "echo character" of Cloud, seeing how a completely unique character takes a lot of effort and it would be easier to represent Sora that way.
...I'm sorry, but I wanna puke at the thought.

A third-party character like that deserves to be higher quality than a clone or semi-clone, especially one from a completely different series.

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