Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[BinWeevil28]

What? Is that from something?

The Flower Glider was her signature glider in Mario Kart 8 (Baby Daisy's CPU uses it as her main kart along with a Wiggler, something which other babies don't use.)

 

[Kirby Dragons]

He'd probably a trap user. All of his specials are used for stage control, placing his items/opponent/himself to whereever he wants.

Mario is simply an all-around fighter in SF style: His original specials; the Fireball, Super-Jump Punch, and Mario Tornado are direct lifts from Ryu’s Hadouken, Shoryuken, and Hurricane Kick.

Those sound more like playstyles, whereas "petals and sports" is just a method of attack. Daisy could easily have a playstyle.

 

[osby]

Those sound more like playstyles, whereas "petals and sports" is just a method of attack. Daisy could easily have a playstyle.

I'm all ears.

And I'm not saying you can do. I'm just saying I doubt she's important enough to make development team scratch their head for finding one and than filling it with Mario Land/Kart/Tennis/Golf etc. references. Especially considering how mechanically unusual last two Mario newcomers was, combining with the fact that Sakurai is worried about overrepresenting Mario, gives the impression of any newcomer from Mario should be:
-a character that is from a fairly recent, critically aclaimed game with unique mechanic
-a moveset/model swap

In Daisy's case she's more likely to be latter.

 

[BinWeevil28]

Every character in Smash have some core fighting style their moveset based around. Petals and sports really don't sound like that. You can create a character with little references (like Zelda's moveset) but it's harder to do than ones with clear style (Ike or Little Mac). Daisy has neither an especially core fighting idea nor is essential enough to create one with a bit of pushing.

Except that Daisy already has a core fighting idea? Sporty Energetic Flower Princess. I could brainstorm multiple movesets from that. Mario characters are intentionally left open to interpretation anyways. Meanwhile people are talking about how Isabelle is a shoo in, when she has shown that she can't fight.

Also, since when has Sakurai shown that he's worried about Mario representation? If that was the case, then we should forget about Dixie and K Rool too.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Even if Fatal Frame is co-owned by Nintendo, I would see little reason as to why a character from there would have more priority than one of Tecmo's biggest characters (And no, naming issues won't prevent him when he can be called Hayabusa by Xander).

Here's kind of the pecking order of all Tecmo Koei characters as far as Smash priority.

Ryu Hayabusa > Warriors character > DOA character > Fatal Frame character > Rygar.

That's how I see it.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Is there a Famitsu column or interview you can refer me to that claims game release windows matter in character selection? I keep hearing this one come up a lot, and even then it sounds a bit fishy depending on when Smash 5 pre-production began.

Here you go.

Interviewer: In Smash for 3DS/ Wii U, there are far more Fire Emblem characters on the roster than in previous games. How did you go about the selection process for these characters?

Sakurai: It really depends on the situation. For example, Roy and Robin were included for completely different reasons. It also depends on luck, of course. Industry trends around the time when development begins is a pretty big factor. I started development on Smash for 3DS/ Wii Uright after I’d wrapped up Kid Icarus: Uprising, and Fire Emblem Awakening was released one month after Uprising. So what’s popular around the time when I begin designing the game is important. Characters are almost never added after I’ve completed the project plan for Smash.

Interviewer: So once that project plan is set into motion, everything is already fixed.

Sakurai: If I had to offer up one exception from this time, it would be for Pokémon. We knew there was going to be a new release soon, so we left one spot open for a new Pokémon, and everything else continued according to plan. Adding or removing during the process directly impacts production costs and people’s workloads, so it’s not that easy to add or change things, and we take that into account.

Interviewer: That’s a separate topic from post-release add-on content (DLC), though.

Sakurai: We don’t think about adding in post-release content from the beginning. We want to provide as much as we can with the base game.

Interviewer: But that means Awakening’s release schedule was pretty fortuitous.

Sakurai: Yes, that was the case. For example, if Awakening was released six months later, Robin may not have made it in, and if it was six months early, they might not have even been considered.

People aren't making up stuff, the director himself stated that timing was important. I don't think this point can be any more unambiguous.

 

[BinWeevil28]

If Daisy was going to be a model swap, then why didn't they do it in Smash 4?

 

[osby]

If Daisy was going to be a model swap, then why didn't they do it in Smash 4?

Probably they didn't care. Same reason I'm dropping this conversation.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

Let me warn you, the "why hasn't Sakurai done it yet" angle can be quite slippery.

 

[BinWeevil28]

Probably they didn't care. Same reason I'm dropping this conversation.

I find it hard to believe that they cared enough to add a dark version of Pit, Rosalina, Mario in a doctor's coat and more, while Daisy the obvious clone (according to you) was completely forgotten. Oh, and they totally didn't already make two new Daisy wigs because they forgot her...or referenced her in a Peach custom move.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

The orange Peach costume is obviously meant to be Daisy.
The fact she wasn't upgraded to Alph-like alt can be interpreted in multiple ways, but if Sakurai doesn't want her to be a clone she's in a very bad situation for the next game.

Daisy can be made unique though. One move that always returns throughout sports spin-off specials is her ability to make a garden as a "pretty distraction" (according to her Baseball Trophy) which could be the core of some kind of agressive stage control fighter. Stage control in general is rare in Smash and I think this move can be a nice version of that.

Here's a few possible effects for the Garden of Doom:

Maybe the garden could inflict the Flower effect on opponents who step on it/get attacked in?
Even upgrade some of Daisy's specials when performed in the garden?
Mobility could also be a factor in this slow, as it could speed up Daisy.
Or damage enemies?
Respectively for Daisy and opponent: Cancel landing lag and increase landing lag
Y stop at just the garden? Include a fence like the garden has in Mario Sports Mix
Mario Run tricks can be performed on this fence
(And also allow Daisy to wall jump)
Now, Daisy can perform a trick like in Mario Kart to speed her up

More things can obviously be included to mash with the whole spin-off athlete theme.
Actually, we haven't talked about a possible Superball move
Now this would act like the Soccer Ball in Smash

And furthermore, it could intermingle with the garden.
Let's say Daisy throws the ball into the garden.
Then the ball could get all kinds of effects as well.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Let me warn you, the "why hasn't Sakurai done it yet" angle can be quite slippery.

For example, why no Balloon Fighter when he is arguably the biggest retro character left?

And we all know where that went since Melee.

 

[BinWeevil28]

The orange Peach costume is obviously meant to be Daisy.
The fact she wasn't upgraded to Alph-like alt can be interpreted in multiple ways, but if Sakurai doesn't want her to be a clone she's in a very bad situation for the next game.

Daisy can be made unique though. One move that always returns throughout sports spin-off specials is her ability to make a garden as a "pretty distraction" (according to her Baseball Trophy) which could be the core of some kind of agressive stage control fighter. Stage control in general is rare in Smash and I think this move can be a nice version of that.

I think it is because Sakurai doesn't want to make Daisy a clone. I really doubt they would have not thought about it in Smash 4 development, considering she was pretty much the first costume in Melee.

Balloon Fighter was already explained as having no real moveset potential. Villager got his main move.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

You should still look at my addendum on the Flower Garden. Some of these things are very, very obvious

 

[Diddy Kong]

Also, since when has Sakurai shown that he's worried about Mario representation? If that was the case, then we should forget about Dixie and K Rool too.

*sigh*

Donkey Kong Country is NOT part of the Mario franchise!!

People should be warned for such comments.

 

[RouffWestie]

I think it is because Sakurai doesn't want to make Daisy a clone.

I think it's because he doesn't want to make Daisy period.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think it's because he doesn't want to make Daisy period.

Which is perfectly reasonable. Daisy wouldn't even be the main character chosen to represent the Mario spin-off series, Waluigi would.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I feel that the reason why Sakurai picks certain characters comes down to something similar to Robin...”I could visualize exactly how he could play as soon as I saw the character”.

If the character is suggested by a fan, and the ideas that come with it immediately remove the character from their home game context (something Smash has effectively not done yet to a severe extent), or throw random references into a moveset, it’s already not promising imho.

Saying Daisy could, “use plant based moves or flower moves” betrays what she is as a character. She has never commanded the power of nature, never used vines to attack people, etc... Viridi or a Grass type Pokémon would be more fitting for that type of moveset.

I myself have never been a huge fan of Daisy, but hats not why I don’t expect her. There are a number of reasons I don’t expect her, but those are also reasons why I don’t really expect any Mario spin-off character to be in Smash. There are “big” characters from other series I would really like to see, so I would honestly prefer to not see character from the “B team” of Mario. I could see Captain Toad because he has his own game and now a port.

If any other Mario character from a spin-off had to get in I would prefer Waluigi just because of the hilarity. For my own feelings on Mario (It’s always my favorite...I grew up with it and put an unhealthy amount of hours into various Mario games, made my friends incredibly salty about Mario Kart, Mario Party, etc), I just don’t think it needs to keep getting more characters. The current roster is wonderful in my humble opinion.

Despite their popularity, Daisy, Waluigi, Birdo, etc, have always been the supporting cast. In a game like Smash, a game that collects the most notable characters from their respective rosters, we’re gonna start taking from a supporting cast before we had main characters from others?

Uh, please pick from series that could give me something cool from a smaller cast. Gimme Dixie or Funky. Gimme Elma or Rex. Gimme Viridi or Medusa, or somebody that comes from somewhere I hadn’t expected.
—-
As a side note, it occurred to me the other day that I didn’t expect half the roster of Wii U, yet it’s my favorite roster by far. I have wants, such as Rex and Pyra, Decidueye, and Spring Man. But i’m gonna fall in love with whoever gets into Smash Switch, so I think for the most part i’m along for the ride.

Then again I DID get like at least 5 correct guesses from the last roster and was super hyped. Either way, I like Smash, enjoy Smash, and play a lot of Smash. So, as long as it’s something interesting, i’m all for it!

 

[Freduardo]

*sigh*

Donkey Kong Country is NOT part of the Mario franchise!!

People should be warned for such comments.

Mario sluggers on GameCube disagrees.

Spoiler

I mean, it’s obviously a separate franchise. But like the minis franchise, the sports franchises, the rpg franchises, the dk rhythm games, dk countries, regular dk games... Mario and Donkey Kong represent and cover a lot more than just two Nintendo franchises. And continually treating them as such leads to their under representation.

I want a damn sequel to Jungle Beat. And the evil Kongs from that to be an Assist trophy. Or stage boss.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Totally not related to anything in particular and this absolutely isn't targeted at anyone in paricular but.

The more you reply to trolls, the more chances they get to reply

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Here you go.



People aren't making up stuff, the director himself stated that timing was important. I don't think this point can be any more unambiguous.

Ya know...

Here's something I found really interesting...

Sakurai: Yes, that was the case. For example, if Awakening was released six months later, Robin may not have made it in, and if it was six months early, they might not have even been considered.


Why did he say this?

He included Little Mac and Shulk, two characters who's last games were much, MUCH earlier than six months before the deadline, being 2009 and 2010 respectively.

Why did Sakurai say this and what does it mean?

 

[BinWeevil28]

I think it's because he doesn't want to make Daisy period.

Who doesn't say that this applies to many of the characters people want? Even the ones considered likely? What if there wasn't Donkey Kong characters in Smash 4 because Sakurai didn't like the idea? Because Dixie and Cranky etc. were still only supporting characters in Tropical Freeze.

Oh and Rosalina, before Smash, never used a Luma as her puppet master, yet she is closely associated with the Lumas. She was also a supporting character. Daisy has used flowers and petals to attack before, and she is very closely associated with them, even in games like Mario Party and Mario Kart.

Oh and on more note, the directors of Mario Sports Superstars also worked on Smash 4's project planning. And the project plan wrapped up when that game finished development. The crossover with the staff might have an influence.

 

[Pokechu]

not gonna lie though if sakurai wanted to have a sports character for some reason, I wouldn't be surprised if he went with Daisy

sort of like the robin situation, he might see more potential with Daisy as she has a whole flower motif, she's been shown to be able to summon plants and flowers, and she's more, for lack of a better word, athletic than Waluigi. Like I could totally see her running around the stage using flower power and sports attacks like dribbling, etc. Waluigi is goofier so I don't think he'd be as quick as Daisy so I find it harder to see him dribbling or running around the stage hitting people with bats. Shoot by default, as Daisy could easily be a clone of Peach, that should make her just as likely as Waluigi.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Who doesn't say that this applies to many of the characters people want? Even the ones considered likely? What if there wasn't Donkey Kong characters in Smash 4 because Sakurai didn't like the idea? Because Dixie and Cranky etc. were still only supporting characters in Tropical Freeze.

Oh and Rosalina, before Smash, never used a Luma as her puppet master, yet she is closely associated with the Lumas. She was also a supporting character. Daisy has used flowers and petals to attack before, and she is very closely associated with them, even in games like Mario Party and Mario Kart.

Oh and on more note, the directors of Mario Sports Superstars also worked on Smash 4's project planning. And the project plan wrapped up when that game finished development. The crossover with the staff might have an influence.

Dixie and cranky missed the deadline but still, they were PLAYABLE characters in a MAIN game, rosalina was a major character in a MAIN game. Daisy just doesn't have that.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Ya know...

Here's something I found really interesting...

Sakurai: Yes, that was the case. For example, if Awakening was released six months later, Robin may not have made it in, and if it was six months early, they might not have even been considered.


Why did he say this?

He included Little Mac and Shulk, two characters who's last games were much, MUCH earlier than six months before the deadline, being 2009 and 2010 respectively.

Why did Sakurai say this and what does it mean?

Might have just been sakurai's way of saying that being early or late is important. Smashers are crazy enough to over-analyze like that.

I would say "maybe that means that if Robin wasn't particularly recent he may have a harder chance" but I have trouble imagining Shulk as higher priority than Robin then. But who know.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Who doesn't say that this applies to many of the characters people want? Even the ones considered likely? What if there wasn't Donkey Kong characters in Smash 4 because Sakurai didn't like the idea? Because Dixie and Cranky etc. were still only supporting characters in Tropical Freeze.

Oh and Rosalina, before Smash, never used a Luma as her puppet master, yet she is closely associated with the Lumas. She was also a supporting character. Daisy has used flowers and petals to attack before, and she is very closely associated with them, even in games like Mario Party and Mario Kart.

Oh and on more note, the directors of Mario Sports Superstars also worked on Smash 4's project planning. And the project plan wrapped up when that game finished development. The crossover with the staff might have an influence.

If you want more people to like Daisy or the idea of Daisy....

It'd be best if you just calmed down.

You're smothering people.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Ya know...

Here's something I found really interesting...

Sakurai: Yes, that was the case. For example, if Awakening was released six months later, Robin may not have made it in, and if it was six months early, they might not have even been considered.


Why did he say this?

He included Little Mac and Shulk, two characters who's last games were much, MUCH earlier than six months before the deadline, being 2009 and 2010 respectively.

Why did Sakurai say this and what does it mean?

My best guess is, and this is just speculation, that the former is an 80's era character and the latter is the Marth of Xenoblade. Punch Out also has a more consistent cast of characters.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Know who also could have the flower motif? LIP, y'know.. the chick who wields Lip's Stick.

Or Ivysaur, a well beloved veteran.

Or Isaac with a whole bunch of other earth Psynergy related stuff.

Daisy is just gonna be a alt of Peach again, and you guys will suck it up and love it.

 

[Freduardo]

Ya know...

Here's something I found really interesting...

Sakurai: Yes, that was the case. For example, if Awakening was released six months later, Robin may not have made it in, and if it was six months early, they might not have even been considered.


Why did he say this?

He included Little Mac and Shulk, two characters who's last games were much, MUCH earlier than six months before the deadline, being 2009 and 2010 respectively.

Why did Sakurai say this and what does it mean?

Best guess, and it is probably wrong... Roy was put into melee before his game was out. He was there to advertise. It’s not for every franchise, but fire emblem has put in characters to advertise for their game.

Six months earlier and it could have been outside the period where that would have made sense because Fates (which came out so shortly after Awakening that Corrin is also a newcomer in the same Smash) was so close Sakurai might have just outright gone with him before Fates was even out.

 

[BinWeevil28]

Dixie and cranky missed the deadline but still, they were PLAYABLE characters in a MAIN game, rosalina was a major character in a MAIN game. Daisy just doesn't have that.

And this is where the lines get blurry. What defines a main game in a franchise as branching as Mario and DK are - with all the cross-referencing and influences?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Dixie and cranky missed the deadline but still, they were PLAYABLE characters in a MAIN game, rosalina was a major character in a MAIN game. Daisy just doesn't have that.

Daisy's debut was Super Mario Land, a main series game and one of the bestselling Game Boy games.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Best guess, and it is probably wrong... Roy was put into melee before his game was out. He was there to advertise. It’s not for every franchise, but fire emblem has put in characters to advertise for their game.

Six months earlier and it could have been outside the period where that would have made sense because Fates (which came out so shortly after Awakening that Corrin is also a newcomer in the same Smash) was so close Sakurai might have just outright gone with him before Fates was even out.

Fates was released a Looooong time after Awakening though. I really doubt that Sakurai would have had the materials to make Corrin work at that point. Greninja had a confirmed design and abilities at that point.

There's no way Corrin did.

 

[BinWeevil28]

Daisy's debut was Super Mario Land, a main series game and one of the bestselling Game Boy games.

Well that was almost 30 years ago now...I don't even think her moveset would be influenced by Mario Land.

 

[Pokechu]

yeah daisy's status as a spinoff character makes me believe that she wouldn't get in unless it was as a last minute clone, but I'd still place her chances above Waluigi due to that and how erratic Waluigi is; Daisy has some things that are pretty concrete, like her close relation to flowers, sportiness/agility, etc., but for a lot of Waluigi's moveset, I'd feel it'd have to be made up? Like what abilities does he have that are constant? Because his various specials in spinoff games are usually different from each other and come out of nowhere, while Daisy remains using her flower power. I think that kind of development may push her ahead of Waluigi.

If you want more people to like Daisy or the idea of Daisy....

It'd be best if you just calmed down.

You're smothering people.

they've been at it for a while but I don't blame them, each time Daisy is brought up for Smash it seems she's just shot down so quickly yet people will seriously discuss Waluigi and how viable of a choice he is. not very fair imho, I can see why they're defending their point

plus even though they're really dedicated, they are still being civil. no harm no foul I say. but idk

 

[Diddy Kong]

Best guess, and it is probably wrong... Roy was put into melee before his game was out. He was there to advertise. It’s not for every franchise, but fire emblem has put in characters to advertise for their game.

Six months earlier and it could have been outside the period where that would have made sense because Fates (which came out so shortly after Awakening that Corrin is also a newcomer in the same Smash) was so close Sakurai might have just outright gone with him before Fates was even out.

Yes, plus having Lucina as the token Awakening character would be a low effort addition that would've likely happened anyway. Plus Roy also could have made the main roster seeing as he was hugely popular anyway.

Robin indeed seems very lucky to have made it in. And since that Sakurai comment, I always thought that Robin might be the only Fire Emblem cut we'd get in the roster.

Hopefully we don't get any, mind you... But I do see him as the most likely cut. Mainly cause Celica could offer what he has in a nutshell and have a more functional moveset without the weapon duration gimmick that felt so forced.

 

[A Distant Demon]

they've been at it for a while but I don't blame them, each time Daisy is brought up for Smash it seems she's just shot down so quickly yet people will seriously discuss Waluigi and how viable of a choice he is. not very fair imho, I can see why they're defending their point

plus even though they're really dedicated, they are still being civil. no harm no foul I say. but idk

I think you should took a second look at my first post on this page

*audible and not at all hinting wink*

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

How about we talk about adding more Fire Emblem characters?

Not that there are many good relevant picks left than Celica and a Switch Lord.

Corrin literally drowned Azura's chances.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Fates was released a Looooong time after Awakening though. I really doubt that Sakurai would have had the materials to make Corrin work at that point. Greninja had a confirmed design and abilities at that point.

There's no way Corrin did.

Even beyond that, he confirmed Robin would have been less likely if his game was released 6 months earlier. So there is no way Sakurai wouldn't have rejected the idea of Corrin in 2012 even if there were concept arts of Corrin back then.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

How about we talk about adding more Fire Emblem characters?

Not that there are many good relevant picks left than Celica and a Switch Lord.

Corrin literally drowned Azura's chances.

Yeah, I'm still a little down about that since Azura was my preferred choice for a Fates rep. Well, I think Celica has the highest chance for a newcomer, but Lyn and the Switch lord also have a fair shot, it all depends when FE16 releases.

 

[A Distant Demon]

How about we talk about adding more Fire Emblem characters?

Not that there are many good relevant picks left than Celica and a Switch Lord.

Corrin literally drowned Azura's chances.

I honestly can't see anyone but Celica. And im not too sure of her.

Lyn is popular and all, but I dont think it's enough for playable status.
Switch characters are probably way too far off to be possible. Maybe for DLC but I wouldn't get my hopes too high.

Celica may suffer because of Fire Emblem representation being a little much even with cuts but I would say she still stands a decent chance.
Even if I prefer Turtle-neck boy