Smash Theory 5: Edgeguarding

[MonkeyArms]

One per set? That's dumb. Even I can do that. In Melee or 64 edge guarding takes out half or more of the stocks.

In a game where you have practically no options besides attacks and recovery moves, versus a game where you have to actually use your head to get an edge guard, instead of boringly throwing out a forward air.

 

[Link24a]

20 seconds.

So, both of his edgeguards?

Not to mention that Pikachu's edgeguard.

Both were really dumb hard reads that could be applied to any game.

Pikachu's edge guards weren't risky at all really because recovery.

Even in Melee he can go down deep with almost no risk. Look at axe vs silent wolf

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Little Mac is difficult to edgeguard...? Also I've been to almost 20 melee tournaments, but if you're talking about smash 4, I've played approximately 1500 matches in for glory. Which is where it should be EASIER to edge guard people

Also lucina's aerials aren't really that much stronger

Her moves are actually very noticeably stronger than Marth's without a tipper.

I'm saying this as a person who uses Lucina a lot more than Marth but still goes to him to see the differences once and a while.

 

[Link24a]

In a game where you have practically no options besides attacks and recovery moves, versus a game where you have to actually use your head to get an edge guard, instead of boringly throwing out a forward air.

In Melee recovering high is not a terrible idea, you can actually cover ledge, meaning you have to consider where they're going. You can't just throw out a forward air unless they're fox stuck in their up b startup

Also in general melee is faster with more options in kills, combos, defense, etc.

But back to edge guarding

Flame Choke offstage is an all-or-nothing hard read if you're not grabbing the edge. And Ganon's Dair... dumb? you not give the impression of one of those "I don't play CHEEP so I'm better" kinds of people. you also failed to notice exactly how that Pikachu took Ganon's first stock, if you think you can do it just as easily, I want proof.



is that so?


I've had enough of hopeless cases.

this phrase I do NOT like having to say at all... but seriously: Git gud, amateur!

Don't put words in my mouth. That down air was really dumb and was never going to hit and left him very very vulnerable. It was just bad. The side b was a cool hard read but that's not exactly applicable because that is something in all of the other games. (like Falcon punch)

Yeah if you were actually paying attention to what I was saying instead of using my words for your agenda you'd realize that

I've already resolved Marth being bad with @Munomario777 and we pretty much got to the point that he just got overall worse with no real new options.

Leading my only option to be, yeah, get good. Even at a top level though he's still trash. Even ally got demolished at evo. He doesn't reward fundamentals well at all. It's like using roy in Melee. Just not a good time

Her moves are actually very noticeably stronger than Marth's without a tipper.

I'm saying this as a person who uses Lucina a lot more than Marth but still goes to him to see the differences once and a while.

Noticeable stronger? Definitely. Enough? Maybe

 

[MonkeyArms]

In Melee recovering high is not a terrible idea, you can actually cover ledge, meaning you have to consider where they're going. You can't just throw out a forward air unless they're fox stuck in their up b startup

Also in general melee is faster with more options in kills, combos, defense, etc.

But back to edge guarding

Brah. You forgot the other 18 characters in the game. :D

 

[Link24a]

Brah. You forgot the other 18 characters in the game. :D

What?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@ L Link24a Please don't double post, just edit in your previous posts next time if you wish to add in more.

I feel like a lot of this debate is mostly how edge-guarding is better in another game, debatable and depends on context and character.

I agree though that Edge-hogging in itself is low risk potentially high reward. An option that was removed because a lot of people who bought the game hated it. So they can trump you now, this is fine and creates more PvP, the only issue I have with it is sometimes characters are hard to stop from getting to the ledge. In Melee though, sometimes it can be stupidly derpy to edgeguard. If someone is below the stage, some character can just bair to cover it so they can't even grab the ledge. If they try again, just bair again. Just saying this as a Peach main.

But they can't plank it so it is a lot more doable to deal with what they do next. Unlike Melee where ledge invincibility is so long they can SH nair or anything they want with ledge invincibility covering any counter play to trying to attack them if they do this right.

Edge-guarding is skillful in both games, many of these skills actually aren't the same between games. In Melee how you cover the ledge is different from Smash 4, but that does not make it worse or better in either case just how it is handled.

I feel as though, this is a debate of mostly, my game has it better than yours!

I do feel like a lot of people try to dumb down how much edge-guarding actually happens in Smash 4. It is real, it is an option and recovering is not always stupidly safe.

Just my thoughts on this back and forth. As a guy who plays every smash game but Smash 64 regularly.

 

[Link24a]

@ L Link24a Please don't double post, just edit in your previous posts next time if you wish to add in more.

I feel like a lot of this debate is mostly how edge-guarding is better in another game, debatable and depends on context and character.

I agree though that Edge-hogging in itself is low risk potentially high reward. An option that was removed because a lot of people who bought the game hated it. So they can trump you now, this is fine and creates more PvP, the only issue I have with it is sometimes characters are hard to stop from getting to the ledge. In Melee though, sometimes it can be stupidly derpy to edgeguard. If someone is below the stage, some character can just bair to cover it so they can't even grab the ledge. If they try again, just bair again. Just saying this as a Peach main.

But they can't plank it so it is a lot more doable to deal with what they do next. Unlike Melee where ledge invincibility is so long they can SH nair or anything they want with ledge invincibility covering any counter play to trying to attack them if they do this right.

Edge-guarding is skillful in both games, many of these skills actually aren't the same between games. In Melee how you cover the ledge is different from Smash 4, but that does not make it worse or better in either case just how it is handled.

I feel as though, this is a debate of mostly, my game has it better than yours!

I do feel like a lot of people try to dumb down how much edge-guarding actually happens in Smash 4. It is real, it is an option and recovering is not always stupidly safe.

Just my thoughts on this back and forth. As a guy who plays every smash game but Smash 64 regularly.

I feel like a mod coming in with a tl;dr post that is pretty much supposed to be a conclusion is a good time to pull out even though I don't fully agree with it

Unfollowing this post now. I hope you guys do too

I won't be responding to anyone mentioning me

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I feel like a mod coming in with a tl;dr post that is pretty much supposed to be a conclusion is a good time to pull out even though I don't fully agree with it

Unfollowing this post now. I hope you guys do too

I won't be responding to anyone mentioning me

Nah I mostly just posted as myself, though I guess it might look that way as a mod coming down with the hammer! lol.

Just me posting my own thoughts, that is all.

 

[Link24a]

Nah I mostly just posted as myself, though I guess it might look that way as a mod coming down with the hammer! lol.

Just me posting my own thoughts, that is all.

I know. Just mods are other worldly beings like ice climbers that don't wobble and skilled Roys

 

[Racuncai]

Edge guards don't exist simple as that.

I wanna know how they define "edge guard", maybe they are talking about something else.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

I wanna know how they define "edge guard", maybe they are talking about something else.

Who knows? They need to lay off the Cough Syrup for a while, until they can clear their heads.

 

[JSG]

I get excited to see these videos because not only do I love learning more about competitive Smash 4, but as an aspiring video editor, the editing and effects in this video makes me so happy.

 

[Racuncai]

Somebody needs to define the term, because iᷰ'm confused.
Why they see a punish off stage (i mean very far from the edge) and they call it edgeguard?
Why any edge mechanic is involve and they still use the term?
Why any move is used on stage near the edge to punish recovery moves? (maybe they exist, but are so rare that i haven't see any)

I like to call this game "the perpetual neutral game" the punish game is lacking, defensive options are strong, (there is no reason to not shielding or rolling all the time) and the "edgeguard" is almost non existent.

 

[Terkoiz69]

Somebody needs to define the term, because iᷰ'm confused.
Why they see a punish off stage (i mean very far from the edge) and they call it edgeguard?
Why any edge mechanic is involve and they still use the term?
Why any move is used on stage near the edge to punish recovery moves? (maybe they exist, but are so rare that i haven't see any)

I like to call this game "the perpetual neutral game" the punish game is lacking, defensive options are strong, (there is no reason to not shielding or rolling all the time) and the "edgeguard" is almost non existent.

I think the perpetual neutral game your talking about exists in the form of brawl, brawl is slow and even edge guarding felt unrewarding, sure Shield is strong in smash 4 but must characters have grab combos that can usually set up edge guarding and even kills, if you miss time a roll and or mis judge it's distance you can end up at a disadvantage fairly easily making the game in someone's favor, so in essence not neutral. Smash 4s neutral is dictated by reads,baits, and zoning amoung many other really strategic things, edge guarding requires good timing and usually a tilt or throw set ups with following reads. So yes this games edge guarding isn't as easy to watch/follow what's going on but itt takes more skill and advanced tactics to pull off which gives me mad respect to those who can set up edge guards and pull off crazy offstage combos

 

[Arcana~]

Can't they just let edge hogging be a thing again..

 

[Racuncai]

So yes this games edge guarding isn't as easy to watch/follow what's going on but itt takes more skill and advanced tactics to pull off which gives me mad respect to those who can set up edge guards and pull off crazy offstage combos

I can't watch/follow something that is not there, give any respond to my questions please, i wanna know what is an edgeguard to sm4sh players.

 

[Unclesatan]

Dair is so terribly difficult to spike with no matter what. 1 frame and it's right in the middle of it.

This isn't about how good I am anymore. I quit smash 4 before I was good. I'm talking about how good Marth is in general and how effective edge guarding is in general

"x is so difficult to do x with"

"this isn't about how good i am"

i officially am not taking you seriously and neither should anyone else