Smash Bros. U Character matchup chart.

[Zareidriel]

I mostly do agree with you, Hypnotoad. But the hard thing is, where do I draw the line? Any method is going to come with its flaws. One advantage of using only Top-Level players is their matchup experience. If I only have one Top-Level player and one Mid-Level player, the Top-Level one is probably going to give me more accurate results across the entire spread. But if I COULD get 99 [INSERT APPROPRIATE SKILL LEVEL HERE]-Level players to participate, I would gladly take their opinion over, say, 5 Top-Level players.

But like I said, that's just an idea I had. I should be able to conjure up a beautiful plan for 2016 with another 200 days or so of consideration.

 

[IndigoSSB]

I mostly do agree with you, Hypnotoad. But the hard thing is, where do I draw the line? Any method is going to come with its flaws. One advantage of using only Top-Level players is their matchup experience. If I only have one Top-Level player and one Mid-Level player, the Top-Level one is probably going to give me more accurate results across the entire spread. But if I COULD get 99 [INSERT APPROPRIATE SKILL LEVEL HERE]-Level players to participate, I would gladly take their opinion over, say, 5 Top-Level players.

But like I said, that's just an idea I had. I should be able to conjure up a beautiful plan for 2016 with another 200 days or so of consideration.

The ideal set-up would be to compile the agreed match-up discussions that all of the character boards do and incorporate it into the chart. With discussions there's no need to draw a fine line between valued and random opinions. The useless opinions are usually naturally weeded out in discussions that require evidence to back up your reasoning.

The problem with that, though, is the same problem the current chart is probably going to have: lack of representation for each character, or in short, manpower. At the moment Falco's matchups are currently being represented by two people, me and some other guy I very much disagree with. The Falco boards are often inactive, and I'm sure there are several other character boards that are similar.

Honestly, I think the best way to do it is to have an open discussion, similar to the competitive impressions thread, where we discuss a certain match-up every week/2weeks and slowly fill up the chart. It'll let us analyze match-ups for ourselves, which will be much more reliable than random and probably biased votes.

Btw I'm not discrediting your work, I really do appreciate you doing this. I'm just brainstorming on how we can make this better.

 

[Zareidriel]

The way you suggested is very good, yes, but it contains one major flaw; time. There are more than 50 characters in the game, which means more than 2500 matchups. At a rate of one per week, the thread would need 50 YEARS to discuss every possible matchup, lol. Yes, the slow, throrough, discussion way is good, the best for accuracy. And maybe there'll be a way to implement that in controlled doses, say, to dispute a certain matchup in detail, or the like.

Thank you for the suggestion, I really do like feedback, and you're welcome, and I appreciate the gesture. But if this continues much further I'll have a hundred clamoring Smashboarders with a hundred completely different ways to go about making a matchup chart. Like I said, this is a problem for another year, and I think it would be best not to dwell on it further. Please~

 

[IndigoSSB]

It's actually 1225 matchups if there are fifty characters, but point taken. I'll probably brainstorm on my own and watch how this match-up chart unfolds.

 

[Zareidriel]

So I've finished tallying the Bowser vote and I may have underestimated the time it takes to count these votes up. Tallying up just 5 votes took about 30 minutes or so. I'm sure that will get faster with time, but the whole project is going to take 25 hours at the very least, maybe much more, as some characters have more than 15 votes. Of course, I am willing to do this myself, it will just be coming out much later than this Friday like I predicted.

BUT! If anyone is feeling especially bored and/or eager to see the Matchup Chart come to its completion more quickly, you can help. If anyone is willing to tally up a Character Forum's entire vote spread in the format below, it would speed the process greatly.

To ease congestion of this thread, please send it via PM! I will mark off any characters that get completed.

Spoiler: Bowser Forum Vote Totals

/////////////BOWSER///////////////

Bowser
Bowser Jr ----+
Captain Falcon -----
Charizard =====
Diddy Kong -----
Donkey Kong -=-=-
Duck Hunt +-=-=
Falco ====-
Fox ---=-
Mr. Game & Watch ==+==
Ganondorf ++===
Greninja =====
Ike --==-
Jigglypuff +=+++
King Dedede =-=--
Kirby ===-=
Link -----
Little Mac +----
Lucario =-+==
Luigi -=--=
Mario -+--=
Dr. Mario ====+
Marth ===-+
Lucina ===+-
Metaknight ----=
Ness ==---
Olimar --===
Palutena ===--
Pikachu -----
Pit -===
Dark Pit ==
Peach --=--
Zelda ++==+
R.O.B. ---=--
Robin =-==-
Rosalina =----
Samus ====-
Sheik -----
Shulk ====+
Toon Link --=--
Villager --=-=
Wario =====
Wii Fit Trainer =====
Yoshi ----=
Zero Suit Samus -----
Megaman ==--=
Pacman ====-
Sonic -----
Ryu -=--=
Roy -=+=+
Mewtwo ++===
Lucas -===
Brawler -=--
Swordfighter ====
Gunner =-==

Finished vote tally:

Bowser
Bowser Jr
Captain Falcon
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Duck Hunt
Falco
Fox
Mr. Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Greninja
Ike
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Kirby
Link
Little Mac
Lucario
Luigi
Mario
Dr. Mario
Marth
Lucina
Metaknight
Ness
Olimar
Palutena
Pikachu
Pit
Peach
Zelda
R.O.B.
Robin
Rosalina
Samus
Sheik
Shulk
Toon Link
Villager
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
Yoshi
Zero Suit Samus
Megaman
Pacman
Sonic
Ryu
Roy
Mewtwo
Lucas
Brawler
Swordfighter
Gunner

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Did no one from the Bowser boards vote on Dr. Mario?

Also, I find it interesting to see how people with different mains will view the same matchup. Three of five votes for Robin/Bowser were equal, but I would consider that to be one of Robin's easiest matchups.

 

[FullMoon]

I would be willing to help with the chart but unfortunately you caught me during test week.

 

[Zareidriel]

Whoops, forgot Doc lol. I fixed it. I think Bowser is one of Robin's best matchups as well, it is very interesting that those from Bowser's perspective see it differently. All part of what also makes this chart an interesting social experiment!

That's fine, I have a lot of school stuff going on as well. This thing probably won't be over this week though. But like I said, there's no pressure on anyone else.

 

[Ajimi]

I don't know if you know, and maybe I am a bit off-topic, but maybe this can help : http://smashboards.com/threads/character-matchup-chart-web-app.421336/

 

[Zareidriel]

Not really off topic I think. XD And yes I've seen that before but thanks. Not really gonna help though, my only problem is just recording the +'s and -'s in as fast as possible. Which also became a little more complicated when people changed the order of my ballot so that the characters don't line up. And used those little faces instead of words, which take up 3 times the screen space. Oh well~

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I may be able to help tally up some of the character board votes. If I have extra time I will do so. I will PM you any tallies I do.

 

[iDaire]

What the hell do you expect me to do with that picture?
I'd have loved a website to be linked that I could edit the picture with.
But for now, you'll have to settle for this.
Toon Link:
Good Matchups: Captain Falcon, Donkey Kong, Ganandorf, Dedede, Mario, Luigi
Bad Matchups: Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, Samus, Link, Fox

Zero Suit Samus is really a guaranteed win. She's built to break any type of zoning whatsoever. Sheik can needle camp the hell out of Toon Link. Samus is annoying if they are good enough to know what to do against projectiles. Fox has a reflector and some extreme speed and combos.

 

[Flawlessh]

Not really off topic I think. XD And yes I've seen that before but thanks. Not really gonna help though, my only problem is just recording the +'s and -'s in as fast as possible. Which also became a little more complicated when people changed the order of my ballot so that the characters don't line up. And used those little faces instead of words, which take up 3 times the screen space. Oh well~

use excel, it will make it way easier.

Best way to layout excel would prob be

http://puu.sh/lpZQB/c8d1010d37.png

Would make your life alot easier, plus having excel on one half of your screen and smashboards on the other to collect data, would make one character take a couple mins at most

 

[Zareidriel]

Thanks for the suggestion, but doing that is only going to complicate things. Excel would be great if I wanted any kind of statistics, but all I'm after is a completed Matchup Chart like the one you see above, and nothing else. I'm not in need of organizational tips, my only limiting factor is the raw TIME needed to count and record each + and -, no matter which way I choose to record them. Remember, each vote is 50 keystrokes, so 10 votes for a character would be 500 and 20 would be 1000.

Gotten some help from some folks already, I'll keep the list above updated with what characters we have finished tallies for.

iDaire I have no idea what you're talking about lol

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

It sounds like a we need more programmatic ways to gather this information. I'd be interested in several forms of this information.

You see how the main grid contains every match up twice? (Mario vs Luigi and Luigi vs Mario)? At glance, this seems like redundant information, but I see an opportunity here. I think each individual character room needs to submit the matchups relative to that character. This accomplishes two things: it liberates each character room from having to reconcile its opinion against the other character room, and it grants insight into how the community perceives the matchup. ("Mario beats Luigi according to the Mario room. Luigi beats Mario according to the Luigi room.")

Secondly, I'd like to see a purely objective matchup chart built strictly from known match results. It would grant some insight into which characters tend to beat what other characters.

Do we wanna put together a website/tool for submitting matchups? I'd be up for helping with this. Having a person manually assemble results is obviously impractical with this monster roster.

 

[Zareidriel]

Yes, I am aware of what you said in your first paragraph, and to do that was the plan already.

But no and no, we will be doing nothing else, for now. Please, people, stop trying to make this more work than it already is. If you want to tally up some votes, like some fine folks already have, and PM them to me, I would love your help.

But no more new ideas about organizing data, etc. The way things are being done is more than adequate.

Let me finish that off with a big ol' PLEASE!

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Yes, I am aware of what you said in your first paragraph, and to do that was the plan already.

But no and no, we will be doing nothing else, for now. Please, people, stop trying to make this more work than it already is. If you want to tally up some votes, like some fine folks already have, and PM them to me, I would love your help.

But no more new ideas about organizing data, etc. The way things are being done is more than adequate.

Let me finish that off with a big ol' PLEASE!

And what way are things being done? Are you still manually gathering data? Please tell me you aren't. Otherwise, I'm going to build a tool anyway.

 

[Zareidriel]

The data is gathered and voting is over, but thanks for your interest in helping the project.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The data is gathered and voting is over, but thanks for your interest in helping the project.

Didn't you just say you would accept help? Whatever. I will simply begin an ongoing metric of character matchups.

 

[Zareidriel]

The mentioned help is in regards to the post above: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-bros-u-character-matchup-chart.387279/page-3#post-20459164

 

[LRodC]

The Mewtwo boards only had two people post. If you ask me, I don't think that's enough to form solid data from. I'd contribute to what I think the MU spread is, but I think the voting period is over.

 

[Zareidriel]

As indicated above, we are in overtime, meaning that character boards with less than five votes can continue to vote until the Chart is complete. I've you've got a Mewtwo spread for me I would appreciate it~

 

[DavemanCozy]

What should Miis have as MUs? MLG rules allowed them at default weight/size with any moveset: is that what we should use for their mus?

 

[Zareidriel]

Like I told the Mii boards, use whatever rule is comfortable to you as far as moves are concerned. I'm not going to make a definitive Mii specials ruling. But yes, normal height and weight.

 

[divade]

I imagine your user image your internal feelings to some of the comments about your setup. good job keeping professional.

 

[EpicLuigiFan]

Zareidrel, just saying, when will you do one on Luigi?

 

[Zareidriel]

When will I do what?

 

[Zareidriel]

I'd like to double post to thank @Incoleo who has helped the project an incredible amount and must have spent hours tallying votes! Thanks!!

Keeping this post: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-bros-u-character-matchup-chart.387279/page-3#post-20459164 updated with what's been done so far.

Looks like we have a bout 4/5 left to go. I have some free time coming up so we'll at least be more than half done by the end of this week.

 

[RonNewcomb]

If you'd enter votes into Excel as 1, 0, or -1 then you don't have to count, just use @SUM(...)

Also, I think we have an official backroom now to do this? Maybe they'd like someone to record the results of their dialogue?

Still, thank you for taking initiative.

 

[Zareidriel]

No prob. I don't have backroom access, I think it's just some top players and analysts at this point.

 

[EpicLuigiFan]

No prob. I don't have backroom access, I think it's just some top players and analysts at this point.

If you make another matchup list could you tag my name and give me the link?
Zareidriel

I want to stay on top of everything and vote for matchup so myself

 

[Zareidriel]

If something like this happens it won't be for another year, and the system will most likely be entirely different. =P

Well here's a small update. So every hour of my life for the recent uncountable days have been taken up by projects, exams, etc. And family events and such of course. tl;dr busy as hell. Not sure when it's gonna stop. Chart is coming along slowly though! I'll update in another week, if we're lucky it will be with a completed chart. But I don't think we're gonna be that lucky.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

huh, I really like this. Is it possible to give preemptive answers to every single MU that we believe to be in a character's favor? Just wondering as I have a lot I'd like to get out.

 

[Zareidriel]

I wish we could serve as your catharsis but input is done at this point. Sorry~

 

[Zareidriel]

Time for your weekly matchup chart update. After my final today I don't have another one until next Monday. Also my place of employment is shut down til January, so I'll have a lot more free time on my hands. Expect a good chunk of the chart to be done this week, if not all of it. This'll probably be the last update before the chart is finished; with winter break just around the corner (after my finals next Monday and Tuesday) the chart is going to be done sooner rather than later. It's about damn time!

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Good luck on your finals.

 

[EpicLuigiFan]

I am sorry but, when will the updated match ups chart be finished???

 

[divade]

... Expect a good chunk of the chart to be done this week, if not all of it. This'll probably be the last update before the chart is finished...

I am sorry but, when will the updated match ups chart be finished???

Read and be patient padawan.

 

[vegeta18]

well, it looks like we are going to have a new patch most likely and new characters before this matchup chart is even half way completed, that changes a lot of things

 

[Zareidriel]

Most things won't change. Rosalina will still beat Mario, Mario will still beat Robin, Robin will still beat Bowser, etc. There will be changes to anyone who gets significant buffs or nerfs, but we'll have to see about that. As far as new characters go, we won't have any data or experience on them so it would be silly to put them in a Matchup Chart before we can try them out for a few months anyway.