Smash Bros. U Character matchup chart.

[Assassannerr]

First of all sorry if this isn't where this goes... I've been innactive and havn't used the site that much. Please move if necessary.

Anyway, Super Smash Bros. for WiiU and 3ds have been out for almost a full 3 months now, and while I know a lot of you are itching for the first teir list, most would agree it is too soon. (The First Teir list for Brawl was releaced in September2008, 6 months after the game has been out.) However that doesn't mean we can't have a little bit of matchup fun/descussion/debate.

So, I have compiled this, Its a blank chart for matchups regarding SmashU.

I actually had the idea for this while sniffing arround Smash64's wikipedia page, and they had something very similar to this. Anyway, the idea behind this is you can make your own matchup chart, or even just make part of one. Maybe just for your main character. The idea is to use these:

and

for matchups. The green being a advantage matchup and the red being a dissadvantage.

NOTE: While you can use the Black Dot if you want, (Representing an even matchup) I would highly reccomend that you don't as the only true even matchups would be the same character...

Most people should know their main... and what characters are a good matchup or a bad matchup. I'm a Ness main myself and I can tell you I matchup well againced oponents who use Lucario or MegaMan, but not well againced oponents like King Dedede and Link. (Before you get butthurt I should note this is just my opinion... Besides, its hard to get a feel when 90% of the online matchups are LittleMac and Link...)
Here is my matchup chart for Ness:

I will admit, this was pretty thrown together... If you have any corrections feel free to make one yourself, I used my main as an example so it should be pretty accurate in general.

Thats the point of this matchup chart, My hope is that we might be able to get a general idea of Good/Bad matchups for certain characters... Or just to give those of us with too much time on our hands something to do.

Have fun!

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I like this.

This is actually really nice.

I'm sure A LOT of people will be happy to see this

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Here's my contribution:

**** those matchups I swear

 

[Thinkaman]

Putting aside noting that yeah, it probably still is too soon...

On behalf of all colorblind people, for the love of God always use the actual numbers and not just colored dots.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Putting aside noting that yeah, it probably still is too soon...

On behalf of all colorblind people, for the love of God always use the actual numbers and not just colored dots.

No ever said you have to bruh

 

[Pazx]

Come join the matchup discussion on the Ness boards OP, it's probably too soon for this.

 

[Saturn_]

Zero and some other top players seem pretty convinced that C.Falcon is a good matchup against Diddy Kong, and I've seen it play out like that in tourneys. Just throwing that out there.

 

[mimgrim]

NOTE: While you can use the Black Dot if you want, (Representing an even matchup) I would highly reccomend that you don't as the only true even matchups would be the same character...

This is completely wrong. Even MUs among different character are not uncommon at all. Not every MU is a clear win or loss for a character.

 

[Kraetyz]

I mean, there's this... http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I mean, there's this... http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/

Why would you look at Eventhubs tier list?

Its stoopid, don't bother looking at it.

 

[PKBeam]

um how does ness win against sheik and why do we lose to mac, d3 and bowser?
to stay on topic, nice chart

 

[Balgorxz]

I mean, there's this... http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/

Luigi 23 and Olimar last when they are top10 characters, right

 

[Nabbitnator]

I like match up charts like this. Its so simple.

 

[Raijinken]

Putting aside noting that yeah, it probably still is too soon...

On behalf of all colorblind people, for the love of God always use the actual numbers and not just colored dots.

Alternately, + and - indicators work identically to the adv/dis system suggested, since it is probably too early to fairly judge numbers accurately.

Anyways, I may run something like this in my friend group, but I don't think it's really soon enough for the community at large to draw meaningful and accurate conclusions.

 

[dragontamer]

I did forget about colorblindness. Red / Green are terrible colors for this purpose. +/- is pretty universal though.

The main thing is keeping it consistent. + means "horizontal" has a positive matchup against "vertical". After that, the bottom half triangle of the chart becomes redundant.

 

[Assassannerr]

um how does ness win against sheik and why do we lose to mac, d3 and bowser?
to stay on topic, nice chart

I believe there is already a posted topic for this so I will keep the response breif. As I said this was thrown together, Little mac was defenetly a mess up on my part, but as I said I made this for example purposes and this isn't designed to give a propper matchup for Ness. I put Bowser and Dedede on because of their seemingly easy ability to Pop our puny shields, even a partly charged SideSmash will pop that shield if we accedently miss the roll, while I know it can be argued that its easy to avoid, missing the roll does happen... and its fatal when it does.

But this kind conversation belongs in a different thread.

Putting aside noting that yeah, it probably still is too soon...

On behalf of all colorblind people, for the love of God always use the actual numbers and not just colored dots.

To be honest, I didn't even think of it... As I said, I based the chart off the Smash64 Wikipidia page, and they used colored disks for their chart.

I do agree that using "non color coded markers" it is a good suggestion, however at this point in time (As you and I both can agree, too soon for a propper teir list) I feel it is too soon to come up with propper conclusions with numbers. I will probably re-work this to utalize a '+' and '-' as that does feel like a better idea. As this is just designed to give a rough idea.

I will re-work the markers however, thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Balgorxz]

let's start with the easy ones, Diddy is good against everything except Luigi and Olimar.

 

[Octagon]

Duck Hunt is great against Donkey Kong, bad against Link/Toon Link

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This is impossible to make with any degree of accuracy at this point in the metagame. It may actually never be possible to make this accurately with such a large cast, but it will honestly be a few years before it's even feasible to try.

 

[Doruge]

let's start with the easy ones, Diddy is good against everything except Luigi and Olimar.

How on earth does Luigi beat Diddy

 

[digiholic]

This is completely wrong. Even MUs among different character are not uncommon at all. Not every MU is a clear win or loss for a character.

I hear you there. I swear, Mega Man and Sonic are both disadvantaged against eachother

 

[benjiross1]

First of all sorry if this isn't where this goes... I've been innactive and havn't used the site that much. Please move if necessary.

Anyway, Super Smash Bros. for WiiU and 3ds have been out for almost a full 3 months now, and while I know a lot of you are itching for the first teir list, most would agree it is too soon. (The First Teir list for Brawl was releaced in September2008, 6 months after the game has been out.) However that doesn't mean we can't have a little bit of matchup fun/descussion/debate.

So, I have compiled this, Its a blank chart for matchups regarding SmashU.

I actually had the idea for this while sniffing arround Smash64's wikipedia page, and they had something very similar to this. Anyway, the idea behind this is you can make your own matchup chart, or even just make part of one. Maybe just for your main character. The idea is to use these:

and

for matchups. The green being a advantage matchup and the red being a dissadvantage.

NOTE: While you can use the Black Dot if you want, (Representing an even matchup) I would highly reccomend that you don't as the only true even matchups would be the same character...

Most people should know their main... and what characters are a good matchup or a bad matchup. I'm a Ness main myself and I can tell you I matchup well againced oponents who use Lucario or MegaMan, but not well againced oponents like King Dedede and Link. (Before you get butthurt I should note this is just my opinion... Besides, its hard to get a feel when 90% of the online matchups are LittleMac and Link...)
Here is my matchup chart for Ness:

I will admit, this was pretty thrown together... If you have any corrections feel free to make one yourself, I used my main as an example so it should be pretty accurate in general.

Thats the point of this matchup chart, My hope is that we might be able to get a general idea of Good/Bad matchups for certain characters... Or just to give those of us with too much time on our hands something to do.

Have fun!

Hi I was going to try to do this through microsoft excel with my amiibo, but I wanted to replace the red green and black dots with numbers just so Excel can calculate the scores. I've never calculated anything like this before, so you can imagine that I'm totally lost. How would I go about doing this? Since I'm using numbers, do I only factor in wins? And how many points do I factor for a win/loss/even mu? Like how do you do this stuff?

 

[popsofctown]

I think tier lists should actually come sooner than a matchup chart. It's hard to know which matchups someone won a tournament due to edge and which he won due to skill, but because he won them all as a group you know they were mostly favorable and the character is good.

 

[ATH_]

This is a bit too early but I don't see why we couldn't work in the ones that we feel are pretty solid.
For instance Ness v. Rosalina feels in Rosalina's favor entirely. Her DownB makes us have to approach and we don't have many options against her other than just throwing out attacks to get rid of luma. We're easily jab combo'd and it's really bleh.

 

[Sodo]

I know everyone is saying it's soon, but at least we now have a matchup chart. Thank you for making this OP.

 

[Link24a]

I completely disagree with that Ness chart

 

[Terotrous]

NOTE: While you can use the Black Dot if you want, (Representing an even matchup) I would highly reccomend that you don't as the only true even matchups would be the same character...

This is terrible advice. It's well accepted that there are many matches where neither character has a notable advantage.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

This is terrible advice. It's well accepted that there are many matches where neither character has a notable advantage.

Especially at this stage in the meta's development. We know a lot of characters have certain advantages over others, but we don't know the sum of those advantages yet

So if we're going to do a match ups chart (l say we do), I expect there to be a lot of neutral match ups

 

[Krisspear]

I have excperience with Wii Fit Frainer this is what I believe after 8 months of frequent tourneys: She has trouble with small caracters that become too short for her to grab, jab or ftilt. This includes Jigglypuff and Kirby when ducking, and Pickachu when landing. She also struggles vs. some speedy characters and characters with supperior projectile game: Sheik, Fox, Lucario, Link, Toon Link, Duck Hunt, Olimar and Megaman. She is good aginst characters that rely on close combat or has poor projectile game such as Cpt Falcon, Lill Mac, Ganondorf, Pacman, Yoshi, Fire Emblem, Kongs, The Mushroom Kingdom.

 

[Tito Maas]

Is it still too early for this?

 

[Graminthesalmon]

Is it still too early for this?

The game has been out for almost a year now. I definitely don't think it's too early to start compiling the data. Sure the information is due to change over time, but honestly it's never too early to start figuring out match ups. Although this graph does need the DLC characters added. This is cool though and I should fill out the matchups my mains feel good and bad against.

 

[Veeonix]

I don't believe It's too early per se. However, we still have a current divide of players in "customs or no customs." I think this factor needs to be taken into consideration.

I hear rumors buzzing around that customs will begin to fall off the radar after Evo. But of course, there is no factual basis to that. So that doesn't really matter.

The point that I'm trying to bring up is, if we do get a clear, decisive rule set for the game, it would give us a better position to evaluate matchups. If customs become a permanent part of the metagame and in frequent use, then characters with "X setup" will have to be taken into consideration for comparing the matchups. If we end up with the base game (no items, no customs) that we use for other Smash games, then we need to evaluate matchups as if only the base characters will be facing one another.

If the community is still divided, or support for both versions of Sm4sh continue being played, then perhaps 2 matchup charts should be considered. 1 for with customs, 1 for without customs.

This is just my two cents. Top players should get a say, knowing the format is important to evaluating, work on the project might be a good idea to begin soon, and Evo is probably a good marking point (since that puts the game out almost a year).

Does anyone have any thoughts on what I mentioned?

 

[Sodo]

The point that I'm trying to bring up is, if we do get a clear, decisive rule set for the game, it would give us a better position to evaluate matchups. If customs become a permanent part of the metagame and in frequent use, then characters with "X setup" will have to be taken into consideration for comparing the matchups. If we end up with the base game (no items, no customs) that we use for other Smash games, then we need to evaluate matchups as if only the base characters will be facing one another.

This is 100% correct. Donkey Kong the Airbender is a completely different animal (no pun intended) than his vanilla counterpart.

If the community is still divided, or support for both versions of Sm4sh continue being played, then perhaps 2 matchup charts should be considered. 1 for with customs, 1 for without customs.

This is extremely ambitious, but I agree. Would the customs MU chart take into account only tournament sets or all sets possible?

 

[TheHypnotoad]

The main problem is that it is impossible to come to any consensus on matchups, and there don't appear to be any top players who want to go through and examine every single matchup in the game (not that I blame them, there are well over 1000 matchups in this game).

 

[Graminthesalmon]

I don't believe It's too early per se. However, we still have a current divide of players in "customs or no customs." I think this factor needs to be taken into consideration.

I hear rumors buzzing around that customs will begin to fall off the radar after Evo. But of course, there is no factual basis to that. So that doesn't really matter.

The point that I'm trying to bring up is, if we do get a clear, decisive rule set for the game, it would give us a better position to evaluate matchups. If customs become a permanent part of the metagame and in frequent use, then characters with "X setup" will have to be taken into consideration for comparing the matchups. If we end up with the base game (no items, no customs) that we use for other Smash games, then we need to evaluate matchups as if only the base characters will be facing one another.

If the community is still divided, or support for both versions of Sm4sh continue being played, then perhaps 2 matchup charts should be considered. 1 for with customs, 1 for without customs.

This is just my two cents. Top players should get a say, knowing the format is important to evaluating, work on the project might be a good idea to begin soon, and Evo is probably a good marking point (since that puts the game out almost a year).

Does anyone have any thoughts on what I mentioned?

Yeah customs really complicates the matter. If worse comes to worse and the community stays divided on the matter there will probably be customs on and customs off charts for matchups.

 

[Tinkerer]

If you go through all the matchup threads on their respective boards, and don't just base it on personal experience, this could be really helpful. Like, say, if someone wants to get a simple idea of who their secondary can be, they can check the list for which character fills the weaknesses of their main the best.

I wouldn't worry too much about a huge consensus, if people are talking about something back and forth just put it down as neutral. (Also, fill up those squares, don't just have dots)

 

[TheHypnotoad]

If you go through all the matchup threads on their respective boards, and don't just base it on personal experience, this could be really helpful. Like, say, if someone wants to get a simple idea of who their secondary can be, they can check the list for which character fills the weaknesses of their main the best.

I wouldn't worry too much about a huge consensus, if people are talking about something back and forth just put it down as neutral. (Also, fill up those squares, don't just have dots)

Putting a matchup down as neutral just because there is no consensus makes no sense. For example, I think Sonic is a terrible matchup for Robin, while another user on the Robin boards claims it's 50/50. It wouldn't make sense to just say the matchup is neutral when neutral is one of the options being argued.

Also, people tend to have a strong bias towards their own character, especially if it's a mid tier or low tier. People who main X will say X wins the X vs Y matchup, while people who main Y will say Y wins the matchup.

 

[TobiasXK]

Why would you look at Eventhubs tier list?

Its stoopid, don't bother looking at it.

as opposed to this totally arbitrary matchup chart idea?

honestly, and no offense to anyone, but there has yet to be a widely agreed-upon Melee matchup chart even. cos it's not just an issue of lack of time and data, because you could always just theoretically have a matchup chart that's "accurate" for any given snapshot of the meta—based on what we collectively know right at that moment—and update it whenever meaningful discoveries or advancements are made.

there's just a very general inaccuracy with the idea that "Most people should know their main... and what characters are a good matchup or a bad matchup." you're polling from a really wide variety of skill and knowledge levels, with regional playstyle and character representation differences, among other things, that affect everybody's personal impression on matchups. so without a ton of like empirical data (character vs. character tournament results, ideally in skill-similar player matchups), you'll just be so far from having a consensus on anything that it's practically impossible to get something that can be called even vaguely accurate overall.

 

[Akira213]

Putting a matchup down as neutral just because there is no consensus makes no sense. For example, I think Sonic is a terrible matchup for Robin, while another user on the Robin boards claims it's 50/50. It wouldn't make sense to just say the matchup is neutral when neutral is one of the options being argued.

Also, people tend to have a strong bias towards their own character, especially if it's a mid tier or low tier. People who main X will say X wins the X vs Y matchup, while people who main Y will say Y wins the matchup.

Maybe I'm just a pessimist but I'm generally the first to say that Marth has a disadvantage in a match up.

 

[Assassannerr]

Bump? I haven't replied to this thread in a while, but I should at least let everyone know I have been working on an updated list, however due to the most recent DLC I havn't been able to post it as my 3ds has broken and I can no longer rip the files of the stock icons for Lucas, Roy and Ryu.

I will upload the updated chart as soon as I am able to find/get permission to use the resources.

Also as a more general statement I should at least reiterate that this is not the place to be discussing character's matchups. We have seperate boards for each character, and its honestly better to discuss them there then here. The Ness chart I made was for example purposes only, and is not meant to give an accurate representation of the characters matchups.

I have redone the markers so instead of colored dots I am using + and - symbols respectively.

Just so everyone knows I havn't actually abandoned this thread.
Just been playing a whole lot of smash.