Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[missingnomaster]

Teleport and Hypnosis are both available? Hypnosis has terrible accuracy though... 55% or something?

Mewtwo doesn't learn Hypnosis, though its accuracy was buffed to 70% in D/P.

Are we even considering characters' defenses when they go against Ganon? Is standing your ground still a loss? I can see how retreating or stalling would, but what about standing your ground? If the opponent can't beat you, they shouldn't get a win.

What exactly can Ganon do? Can someone make a list or something?

We are still limiting Sonic btw. His only ring limit was disproven, and he doesn't have one now. Why are we limiting him?

@current matchup

What can mewtwo do about a landmaster? And if he defeats that, he has to worry about fox running around with barriers, sniper rifles, and machine guns, etc.

I'm pretty sure if a character can fight, and neither defeat or be defeated, then it would have to be a draw.
A list of Ganon's abilities would be pretty long lol. I'm not the one to do it though, there's several games I haven't played.

But he is allowed to have all of his abilitys in the game he appeared.
But that doesn´t matter. I´ve just discovered that he can´t learn Hypnosis.

Right. You guys have to choose between 2nd gen Mewtwo with Teleport and newer Mewtwo with no teleport but newer stuff. Because the latter game retcons the ones where Mewtwo learns Teleport.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Landmasters could be countered by various things I think. Earthquake comes to mind, but then again... the Landmaster can float. Psychic would do I guess? Calm Mind to buff up and strenghten attacks. Recover heals 50%, minimally.

Barriers, well Brick Break would work likely. Guns, I dunno though. How long does it take to take down a average character with them in Star Fox? We need things like that to determine what moves and weapons are strong and which aren't...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Sonic isn't standing his ground when he's running away.

Mario, why do you keep bringing that up when it doesn't even matter against Ganon?

 

[PowerBomb]

Brick Break only brings down Reflect and Light Screen. Nothing more. Hypnosis' accuracy was reduced to 60% again in Platinum.

So which Mewtwo? Teleport 2nd gen one, or newer gen one? They both have their advantages/disadvantages.

 

[missingnomaster]

Mariobrouser is bringing that up because it matters for other matchups. It would appear that he doesn't feel like procrastinating.
~~~
By the way, the reason I included Protect with my idea for Mewtwo's moveset was mainly for Smart Bombs, since those seem more threatening than the lasers.

 

[BSP]

Landmasters could be countered by various things I think. Earthquake comes to mind, but then again... the Landmaster can float. Psychic would do I guess? Calm Mind to buff up and strenghten attacks. Recover heals 50%, minimally.

Barriers, well Brick Break would work likely. Guns, I dunno though. How long does it take to take down a average character with them in Star Fox? We need things like that to determine what moves and weapons are strong and which aren't...

He could attack the LM (yeah, it can float so earthquake wouldn't work), but he would be getting shot. I guess M2 could make a substitute and then attack. The LM shouldn't take long to take it down though, but M2 might have buffs( calm mind, etc.) by then. Powerbomb says BB only works on light screen and reflect, so it wouldn't work on barriers, which is a problem for mewtwo. Substitute will be a problem for Fox. Is arwing any better than LM?

Sniper Rifle one hit ko'ed everything except Wolf, who had the highest hp. Anything after getting hit would then kill him. About 4 homing launchers would kill Wolf IIRC. It would take some time to kill him with a machine gun, less with a gatling. I would test, but i don't have assualt

It depends on how fast Fox can take down M2's substitute. He could use an arwing smart bomb or the LM lasers. If fox gives M2 time to set up, he will lose.

Sonic isn't standing he's ground when he's running away.

Mario, why do you keep bringing that up when it doesn't even matter against Ganon?

Well, he could just run only to dodge stuff. As long as he isn't intentionally avoiding battle (stalling) he is not retreating. And Sonic can attempt to fight Ganon, even though it is futile. But my point is that if he's not deliberately staling, it shouldn't be an auto loss. The opponent should have to ko the other person to receive a win.

I keep bringing it up because it doesn't seem like we gave Sonic's defenses any credit at all, just "vs. Ganon? auto-loss" (though that is true for many people). Sonic's using power that has been used to awaken Gods, defeat Gods, seal Gods,destroy comets, destroy the world, etc. I know that Ganon is insanely strong, but could you clarify what exactly he can do to wtfpwn Sonic? Sonic has considerable defenses, so he may be able to stand his ground (I forgot that Sonic can heal himself too). And this would apply to others who go against Ganon as well. He's not going to be beaten or anything though, he's still too good for that.

And back to Super Sonic, I still want to know why we are placing limits on Sonic's maximum ring count, even when the only limit was proved false.

 

[_clinton]

Sure, Fox can probably shoot a lot of stuff in the meanwhile as well, but Mewtwo likely is able to take more hits from Fox than the other way around. Recover and Calm Mind only help him with tanking, and even assist him with attacking.

You are aware that Calm Mind raises the special stats right...not the physical stats...

_clinton, I know this isn't canon, but in most Mario sport games... DK has shown to be either just as strong as Wario (and Bowser for the record) or slightly stronger even (Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Wintergames for example, my little brother bought it).

Not to mention Brawl. Wario might be a better character, but DK's still stronger and heavier.

The only things that I care about with Brawl/spin offs is that they say that they are heavy weights, and have power for whatever reason (DK because he is an ape that is in the prime of his life, and Wario because he is Wario)

Overall I wouldn't count sport/spin offs as good info for game facts...Mario is "average" by default if you don't get that (in that I'm saying things are balanced out for game play in these)...what I mean is...game play can get in the way of those facts easily…god in no way should Ness be slightly below average at being KOed…he gets crushed from moves by foes that have to at least weigh a few tons…and brushes it off like it’s nothing

I'm thinking they would be about equally as strong canoncally as well. They're tossing around giant creatures like they weight nothing.

Where is DK picking up giant characters like they weight nothing? Just wondering…

Wario I think might be one of the most underrated characters in this thread, if not the most underrated. Still, when fighting I believe DK still has the advantage.

You think he is at the advantage because he is an ape...and apes are naturally a ****ing lot stronger than normal humans (chimps are as well...so do you think Diddy is stronger than Wario as well?)

That really is all it is…Wario isn't a normal human though...and I still don't see how DK is nothing more than just an alpha Male of his pack...

Of course DK comes off as strong...he's a ****ing ape...still other Kongs have proven to be stronger than him in case you don’t get that (Chunky Kong for one…who is a 2000 gorilla)

And yeah when you think about it... Jungle Climber's ending is pretty creepy. Seems like the banana people from that game are like canibals or something.

Well at least we agree on some things...

If rings are a game mech (SS's ring count, which i think it's a mech too), SS is infinite. You're right about him being able to transform without the need of rings. If the emeralds hold a limitless energy, he'd be able to stay SS forever.

The emeralds can hold a limitless energy...but you are aware that they have a limit of what they can produce at a time...

Sonic Adventure proves that...and they have lost their powers in other games as well (Sonic unleashed from looking at the start of that game)

And why are we talking about this? Sonic Advanced 2 proves that Sonic can lose the charge under the wrong situation...and Sonic Adventure 2 sort of says that with Shadow as well...

Oh and...again...Ganondorf has been killed by things other than the master sword...OoA/OoS...

Ganondorf has god power backing him up that makes him stronger and ups his defense...in case you didn't look at the list I made...so do like 90% of the characters in the game...how is Ganondorf's better again?

 

[BSP]

k, i'll take the limit on what they can produce at a time if the energy is infinite, which it is. SS's speed and chaos control should be enough to catch anyone.

SA proves what? Sonic unleashed showed that the emeralds just hold the energy, it didn't prove that the energy itself isn't infinite. Like, the laser took the energy from the containers, you get what I'm saying? Unleashed doesn't prove that the energy isn't infinite, it proves that it can be taken from the emeralds.

SA2 cutscene shows sonic losing it...but during the gameplay of SA2 battle, he's mid fight during atmospheric re entry but he's all right...haven't we been through this before? And yes, the fight takes a toll on Shadow, but it didn't take the same toll on Sonic, or he would've fallen as well.

The other characters you mentioned haven't survived a sword stabbed through their chest, and then pull it out.

 

[missingnomaster]

I never beat OoA or OoS. What was Ganon killed by in those games, and did he have the Triforce of Power?

 

[PowerBomb]

He was a mindless Zombie, and only accessed through the game linking. Guess what? He was beat by the Master Sword.

 

[missingnomaster]

Ah, I remember reading about it now. Definitely one of the times he didn't have the ToP.

 

[the king of murder]

The emeralds can hold a limitless energy...but you are aware that they have a limit of what they can produce at a time...

Sonic Adventure proves that...and they have lost their powers in other games as well (Sonic unleashed from looking at the start of that game)

And why are we talking about this? Sonic Advanced 2 proves that Sonic can lose the charge under the wrong situation...and Sonic Adventure 2 sort of says that with Shadow as well...

Oh and...again...Ganondorf has been killed by things other than the master sword...OoA/OoS...

Ganondorf has god power backing him up that makes him stronger and ups his defense...in case you didn't look at the list I made...so do like 90% of the characters in the game...how is Ganondorf's better again?

Most of the characters you listed aren´t godly creatures or have godly powers. They´re just very powerful beings or superhumans. There are some charas with god powers like Ike but most of them are just very powerful superhumans. And Ganon has been killed by a normal sword because he hadn´t the Tricorce of Power at this moment. He was resurrected by Twinrova but they sacrificed themselves instead of Zelda. Because of that Ganon was brought back half dead with half of his power and no ToP. Ganondorf is superior to Sonic even without the complete Triforce.
Like I said Sonic´s only option not to lose is to run away.

 

[BSP]

Ganondorf is superior to Sonic even without the complete Triforce.
Like I said Sonic´s only option not to lose is to run away.

Why? Why? Why?

That's my point. You failed to explain exactly what Ganon has to own Sonic. All vs. Ganon matches are "Ganon wins, no contest"

Sonic is one of the few people with God level power. If you name all the things Ganon has done with his power, I'm sure the chaos emerald's power has been used to do some if not all of those things. He has legitimate defenses. This is what I meant, you didn't acknowledge Sonic's defenses at all. This is not an insta win for Ganon until someone explains how it is. And then when they attempt to, I bet Sonic has a way to hold his ground. If Sonic can hold his ground, it's a tie.

@Rel

two people are faster, falco and Wolf...

Thunder won't insta kill the LM or Arwing, they do have shielding, even if it can only take a few hits.

Fox is dangerous on foot. He can carry X (idk) amount of barriers for temporary invincibility, and has gatling guns, granades, missile launchers, and a sniper rifle. Considering that he's invincible while he runs, he's a force on foot.

 

[REL38]

@Diddy

I'd imagine Thunder would be more useful against any of Fox's vehicles.
Psychic is just a strong force wherelse Thunder can screw over the circuitry or whatnot.

Fox on foot has no chance.
Mewtwo is faster.
Fox is 4th slowest in Star Fox Assault (last is Slippy).
Fox would still need to aim his Sniper Rifle which takes time. Especially against a foe that's moving (teleport?).

 

[the king of murder]

Why? Why? Why?

That's my point. You failed to explain exactly what Ganon has to own Sonic. All vs. Ganon matches are "Ganon wins, no contest"

Sonic is one of the few people with God level power. If you name all the things Ganon has done with his power, I'm sure the chaos emerald's power has been used to do some of those things. He has legitimate defenses. This is what I meant, you didn't acknowledge Sonic's defenses at all.

I think I mentioned it earlier that Ganon can overcome shields. Most of the time Link uses his shield it fails to protect him from Ganon. I´m not sure about Sonic though maybe your right. What kind of protection has he ?

 

[missingnomaster]

@Diddy

I'd imagine Thunder would be more useful against any of Fox's vehicles.
Psychic is just a strong force wherelse Thunder can screw over the circuitry or whatnot.

That doesn't happen in real life when vehicles get struck by lightning does it? I'm pretty sure Arwings and Landmasters could take it better than a simple car.

Why? Why? Why?

That's my point. You failed to explain exactly what Ganon has to own Sonic. All vs. Ganon matches are "Ganon wins, no contest"

Sonic is one of the few people with God level power. If you name all the things Ganon has done with his power, I'm sure the chaos emerald's power has been used to do some if not all of those things. He has legitimate defenses. This is what I meant, you didn't acknowledge Sonic's defenses at all. This is not an insta win for Ganon until someone explains how it is. And then when they attempt to, I bet Sonic has a way to hold his ground. If Sonic can hold his ground, it's a tie.

My stance is that it's a draw because with the time slow down and infinite shields you talked about, Ganondorf would never be able to hurt Sonic, but Sonic couldn't do anything to Ganondorf.

 

[BSP]

I think I mentioned it earlier that Ganon can overcome shields. Most of the time Link uses his shield it fails to protect him from Ganon. I´m not sure about Sonic though maybe your right. What kind of protection has he ?

Link's shield =/= Sonic's Lightning shield, which in Sonic's games, protects from EVERYTHING (except geting crushed, or falling but whatever). Sonic also has an infinite time slow going from his gem powers from Sonic 06, and he can stop time or warp with Chaos Control if he needs to ( he won't get tired, the fatigue was from using a fake emerald, which didn't provide the energy, unlike the real emeralds). He has Super Sonic too, and its time limit is being debated I think ( We are placing unjustified limits on his rings, and he has shown he can become SS without rings), but under current rules, that's three hours. Sonic can heal himself with items, or his powers from Sonic Battle. He also has equipment to protect from status effects as well. His speed of course lets him avoid pretty much anything as well.

Yeah, Sonic can go a long way, but what can Ganon do? I think that's more important.

 

[missingnomaster]

To make sure we are on the same page, the Lightning Shield you are talking about will protect from any -one- attack, but will disappear after taking a single attack?
And it also gives Sonic a mid air jump, as well as drawing nearby rings to him?

 

[BSP]

To make sure we are on the same page, the Lightning Shield you are talking about will protect from any -one- attack, but will disappear after taking a single attack?
And it also gives Sonic a mid air jump, as well as drawing nearby rings to him?

I'm talking about the one from Sonic 06. Hold on, I'll go find that vid. It will disappear after taking an attack, but sonic can regenerate another an infinite amount of times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPeFkG0U08Q

somewhere in there. Just realized I missed like half of Sonic vs. Ganon, and we dropped it too fast :\

 

[REL38]

That doesn't happen in real life when vehicles get struck by lightning does it? I'm pretty sure Arwings and Landmasters could take it better than a simple car.

idunno

I'd figure Thunder would be more effective than Psychic :/
Maybe Hyper Beam or Giga Impact would be better.

 

[missingnomaster]

I'm talking about the one from Sonic 06. Hold on, I'll go find that vid. It will disappear after taking an attack, but sonic can regenerate another an infinite amount of times.

Oh, Ok. I was talking about the one from Sonic 3. I've never played Sonic 06 so I have no idea if they have all of the same properties. But I believe the time slow and infinite shields should probably let Sonic at least Draw with anyone.

idunno

I'd figure Thunder would be more effective than Psychic :/
Maybe Hyper Beam or Giga Impact would be better.

Against a living creature, perhaps, but when they are inside a vehicle, it's hard to say.
Hyper Beam would definitely be powerful, but I don't think Mewtwo could afford the recharge time.

 

[the king of murder]

Link's shield =/= Sonic's Lightning shield, which in Sonic's games, protects from EVERYTHING (except geting crushed, or falling but whatever). Sonic also has an infinite time slow going from his gem powers from Sonic 06, and he can stop time or warp with Chaos Control if he needs to ( he won't get tired, the fatigue was from using a fake emerald, which didn't provide the energy, unlike the real emeralds). He has Super Sonic too, and its time limit is being debated I think ( We are placing unjustified limits on his rings, and he has shown he can become SS without rings), but under current rules, that's three hours. Sonic can heal himself with items, or his powers from Sonic Battle. He also has equipment to protect from status effects as well. His speed of course lets him avoid pretty much anything as well.

Yeah, Sonic can go a long way, but what can Ganon do? I think that's more important.

Well in ATTP Ganon had some kind of magic that turns you into a helpless beast. It was in the Dark World I think. And no, Sonic can´t escape it because the curse was all over the land.
He will lose all of his power and turns into helpless hedgehog. In TP the Twillight Realm had some kind of similar magic. But I´m not sure if it works on Sonic. I thought it worked on anyone who isn´t a Twili.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Read the match-up summary, Mario.

Anyways, what does Ganon have, you ask?

• The Power & Strength Of A God

• Durability

• Flight

• Teleportation

• Unlimited Wishing (completed with the speed of his thought.)

• The Power of Possession

• Invincibility

• Immortality

• Skilled with Swords

• Dark Magic & Electric Attacks

• The Power to summon/cast Barriers, and Ghost Horsemen

• Beast Form

I'm just listing a few for now.

 

[BSP]

God, Ganon is broken lol. Well, I'll take that as proof, but that means Ganon instant wins vs. everyone now. I'll pull this up if anyone else has a small chance vs. Ganon.

When did he complete the triforce? When does he perform this wishing or whatever in game? (if he doesn't, and he gets the power, Lucas gets his Dragon powers and can actually end the world) If it was only one time, Sonic should get infinite Super Sonic since he's had it one time (actually, more than one).

That list you posted

-Sonic has the power and strength of a god, assuming he's in Super Form
-He's pretty durable. He might've tied with Ganon if it wasn't for the triforce
-even normal sonic can fly and teleport
-Sonic can't wish to my knowledge
-Did we ever clarify what determined if Ganon could possess you?
-SS is invincible too
-not immortal though lol
-He'd be in infinite time slow, swords wouldn't help much
-Sonic has shields, can stop the attacks, or warp away, or just go SS

Just a few, Sonic's pretty tough. Please answer my questions above though.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

In Attp, Ganon stole the Triforce.

One day, quite by accident, a gate to the Golden Land of the Triforce was opened by a gang of thieves skilled in the black arts. This land was like no other. In the gathering twilight, the Triforce shone from its resting place high above the world. In a long running battle, the leader of the thieves fought his way past his followers in a lust for the Golden Power. After vanquishing his own followers, the leader stood triumphant over the Triforce and grasped it with his blood- stained hands. He heard a whispered voice: "If thou has a strong desire or dream, wish for it..." And in reply, the roaring laughter of the brigand leader echoed across time and space and even reached the far-off land of Hyrule. The name of this king of thieves is Ganondorf Dragmire, but he is known by his alias, Mandrag Ganon, which means Ganon of the Enchanted Thieves.

He was then sealed away by "dark lords" during the gameplay, but he then wished for all of them to disappear (or something close to that), one by one. That proves that the Triforce grants more than one wish (even though It's already been stated it did).

 

[BSP]

In Attp, Ganon stole the Triforce.

One day, quite by accident, a gate to the Golden Land of the Triforce was opened by a gang of thieves skilled in the black arts. This land was like no other. In the gathering twilight, the Triforce shone from its resting place high above the world. In a long running battle, the leader of the thieves fought his way past his followers in a lust for the Golden Power. After vanquishing his own followers, the leader stood triumphant over the Triforce and grasped it with his blood- stained hands. He heard a whispered voice: "If thou has a strong desire or dream, wish for it..." And in reply, the roaring laughter of the brigand leader echoed across time and space and even reached the far-off land of Hyrule. The name of this king of thieves is Ganondorf Dragmire, but he is known by his alias, Mandrag Ganon, which means Ganon of the Enchanted Thieves.

He was then shown sealed away by "dark lords" during the gameplay, but he then wished for all of them to disappear (or something close to that), one by one. That proves that the Triforce grants more than one wishes (even though It's already been stated it did).

Ok, that's good enough for me. An explanation is all I wanted. So next Ganon matchup, expect a "vs. Ganon? Ganon +1" post lolz. Or maybe we could just skip them? He's that broken lol.

@current match

I still think Fox has the advantage with his Landmaster to barrier + guns.

 

[_clinton]

k, i'll take the limit on what they can produce at a time if the energy is infinite, which it is.

The energy the emeralds have is infinite...I keep saying that because I agree with it...
The characters don't have free control over it for one...and the emeralds do need a charge time...

Plus things like the Master Emerald can contain the energy as well...

SS's speed and chaos control should be enough to catch anyone.

Except for anyone who can move faster in some way/have resistance to various forms of energy...or someone who can absorb energy as well

SA proves what?

That the emeralds have a cap at what they can do at one time...Chaos drained them for one side fully...they needed a recharge of some type just to use the other energy side...

Sonic unleashed showed that the emeralds just hold the energy, it didn't prove that the energy itself isn't infinite.

I'm not saying that the energy isn't infinite...god...how many times am I going to have to say this?

SA2 cutscene shows sonic losing it...but during the gameplay of SA2 battle, he's mid fight during atmospheric re entry but he's all right...haven't we been through this before? And yes, the fight takes a toll on Shadow, but it didn't take the same toll on Sonic, or he would've fallen as well.

Please compare what was happening in those two games again...

He was trying to protect an egg container for one...he had to work harder to keep that thing safe than what he had to do with the other game...

The other characters you mentioned haven't survived a sword stabbed through their chest, and then pull it out.

The other characters I talked about have survived far more actually...

Mario-Paper Mario...the start of the game...Bowser kicks Mario's ***...and throws him out of the castle...
Luigi-Does sky diving with Mario in Mario & Luigi: SSS like 3 times in that game...that is just one example...that happened at the start of the game...
Peach-You might have a point here...I can't think of anything...
Bowser-Comes back from the dead in NSMBs for the DS
DK-Has been fuel for a machine in DKC3, and has had to deal with this in DKC2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4eJO9Tg2aw
Tortured from 3:04-3:09

Do I have to go on?

He was a mindless Zombie, and only accessed through the game linking. Guess what? He was beat by the Master Sword.

You don't need the master sword to beat him...and just because he was a mindless zombie doesn't mean he wasn't powerful...it was his original body you know...it just didn't have his mind

Most of the characters you listed aren´t godly creatures or have godly powers. They´re just very powerful beings or superhumans.

Ah no…while some of the characters are normal…I don’t see how that makes them weaker than Ganondorf based off what they could do…
The 7 star children
LoZ
Samus’ race of people made life…as in played god…and Samus is their “final product”
Pit is a general for a god…how is he not using god powers?
The Kirby series has Kirby dealing with god things all the time…and MK’s sword is holy
Fox has killed a god…with help of course…but still…on the list of other things he has had to deal with include a race of bug things that act like Phazon
Falcon…Yeah…he is on the list as well if you actually look at what I was talking about
I shouldn’t have to talk about Pokemon trainer
Mewtwo is on the same level with various pokemon…check his base stat total and compare what is around
Marth and Ike are each using god stuff
Ness and Lucas are linked to the universe’s fate as in tied to it…as in “everything”
Sonic has used stuff to beat up gods

Snake is the only thing close to a super human

And Ganon has been killed by a normal sword because he hadn´t the Tricorce of Power at this moment. He was resurrected by Twinrova but they sacrificed themselves instead of Zelda. Because of that Ganon was brought back half dead with half of his power and no ToP. Ganondorf is superior to Sonic even without the complete Triforce.

How did he have ½ his power? He just didn’t have his mind because of his incomplete resurrection…if anything that is worse IMO than a guy who just wants to rule everything…something like this was going to destroy everything…

Where in the game script does it say he was weaker?

Why? Why? Why?

Because Zelda fans don't get the fact that other games have god power/don't have some other source of power...

Fox is 4th slowest in Star Fox Assault (last is Slippy).[/COLOR]

Ah no...

Fox's speed is a 4...out of 5 for the stat...he isn't slow IMO...only Falco and Wolf are faster on foot out of the 5 playable characters for that multiplayer game (as in not canon...but you guys don't get that already)

Read the match-up summary, Mario.

Anyways, what does Ganon have, you ask?

Oh boy…because none of the other characters have god powers of some sort huh?

Oh and Ganondorf can’t have the full power of the triforce…his mind isn’t in balance…that is the issue with him borrowing someone else’s power…LttP I guess is your reasoning for this though…it’s not like other games have come along and changed the canon…

 

[BSP]

I don't feel like quoting, so @ Clinton

They'd have to be impervious to time stops if they wanted to avoid Super Sonic. I see what you mean on the cap on what they could do at a time, but they have been shown to be able to handle Chaos Control and Super transformation x2 at once. I think Sonic will be ok here.

About SA2: I guess...IDK, you might be right. But He is also put under a lot of stress in other situations and is ok (vs. Dark Gaia for example). Could anyone here even recreate that amount of pressure anyway? (Atmospheric re entry, supporting a metal egg re entering, enormous pressure).

But stabbed through the chest with a sword...I don't see how that can be compared with any of the feats you mentioned _Clinton. Bowser had to have help, and he may not have even been dead. The bones were still acting were they not?

 

[REL38]

@Clinton

Oh, my fault.

I was thinking of the overall character ranking (aka tier list) for multi-player :/

I actually think Fox was worst overall, but I'm unsure :/

 

[JOE!]

*is back*

yeah, he's a smash character, but according to you guys he is immortal, invulnerable and all powerful.

he shouldnt even be bothered with, and just placed at the top so other characters get time in the spotlight.

as for the comment about telekinisis: isnt gravity a move mewtwo can learn? If so, he can control gravity, thus make the arwing/landmastah so incredibly heavy they wont function. Or perhaps just use psychic on fox inside the vehicle and knock him around inside?

 

[_clinton]

They'd have to be impervious to time stops if they wanted to avoid Super Sonic.

You are aware that all time stopping is happens to only be blanking out the 4th dimension for said amount of time…in logic I could argue that anyone who has some sort of god power to create/destroy/change could deal with time stopping…plus it’s not like Sonic is the only one who can deal with it…Mario can flip dimensions as well…

I see what you mean on the cap on what they could do at a time, but they have been shown to be able to handle Chaos Control and Super transformation x2 at once. I think Sonic will be ok here.

The thing is…the more people needed equals the more energy used to make the transformation…and it’s not like Sonic can do it right away as well…he needs some time to build it up…

About SA2: I guess...IDK, you might be right.

Of course I’m right ^_^

But He is also put under a lot of stress in other situations and is ok (vs. Dark Gaia for example). Could anyone here even recreate that amount of pressure anyway? (Atmospheric re entry, supporting a metal egg re entering, enormous pressure).

The types of stress he is in vary in other situations…like for example…in the one I’m talking about… he was trying to save something…not destroy them…

But stabbed through the chest with a sword...I don't see how that can be compared with any of the feats you mentioned _Clinton. Bowser had to have help, and he may not have even been dead. The bones were still acting were they not?

A. It wasn’t his chest…it was right below the chest but not the gut
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/zelda/images/a/a3/Ganondorf_Unarmed_(Twilight_Princess).png
B. It’s easy to compare Ganondorf’s situation to others…you know you don’t need a sword in the kisser right? God just about anything that would be fatal to another character will work at proving that they can take the stuff Ganondorf could…and I fail to see how you think Mario being beaten to a pulp, struck by lightning, and then thrown out of Peach’s castle that is flying in the air with Bowser’s…then living from it…is worse than Ganondorf’s sword wound…god there are so much more characters that live through worse in this thread…Ness/Lucas for example…
C. Bowser’s did not have help to come back…he is just an expert at necromancy black magic…Oh and I like how you don’t think DK’s being shot and beaten and then eventually breaking free I might add as worse than Ganondorf’s as well…

*is back*

yeah, he's a smash character, but according to you guys he is immortal, invulnerable and all powerful.

Only because he has god powers backing him...how you beat him is by having god powers as well...which a ton of these characters happen to have...the fact that he has so many wins is BS…

 

[Diddy Kong]

You are aware that Calm Mind raises the special stats right...not the physical stats...

Lasers I think would be special? We dunno though. Subsititue and Recover still would help Mewtwo a lot, and it isn't like he's that easy to kill, and that Fox is that strong. Mewtwo very well would be able to take a few lasers without any buffs.

The only things that I care about with Brawl/spin offs is that they say that they are heavy weights, and have power for whatever reason (DK because he is an ape that is in the prime of his life, and Wario because he is Wario)

Depends on how you look at it I guess...

Overall I wouldn't count sport/spin offs as good info for game facts...Mario is "average" by default if you don't get that (in that I'm saying things are balanced out for game play in these)

Well, Mario should be pretty "average". No mather how powerful he might get in his RPG games, no way it's possible for him to become stronger than the 3 main heavy weights DK, Wario and Bowser.

...what I mean is...game play can get in the way of those facts easily…god in no way should Ness be slightly below average at being KOed…he gets crushed from moves by foes that have to at least weigh a few tons…and brushes it off like it’s nothing

Well, that's true.

Where is DK picking up giant characters like they weight nothing? Just wondering…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXiAB_d3uqU

Look around 1.15. DK owns Ghastly King (the final boss) so badly.

You think he is at the advantage because he is an ape...and apes are naturally a ****ing lot stronger than normal humans (chimps are as well...so do you think Diddy is stronger than Wario as well?)

No, I think DK has the advantage in speed, equipment, and fighting skill in general. Stamina to, cause he get's loads of "beats" in Jungle Beat. And Going Bananas of coarse.

Diddy is weaker than Wario, no doubt. He beat Wario by tricking him eating a Orange Grenade btw.

That really is all it is…Wario isn't a normal human though...and I still don't see how DK is nothing more than just an alpha Male of his pack...

He is, sort of... But still, he's doing some nice things in his games a normal ape wouldn't be able to do.

Of course DK comes off as strong...he's a ****ing ape...still other Kongs have proven to be stronger than him in case you don’t get that (Chunky Kong for one…who is a 2000 gorilla)

Chucky Kong yeah, but that's the only one.

Well at least we agree on some things...

Hey, it's isn't that rare that I agree with you... At least, lately that's it.

EDIT:

He could attack the LM (yeah, it can float so earthquake wouldn't work), but he would be getting shot. I guess M2 could make a substitute and then attack. The LM shouldn't take long to take it down though, but M2 might have buffs( calm mind, etc.) by then. Powerbomb says BB only works on light screen and reflect, so it wouldn't work on barriers, which is a problem for mewtwo. Substitute will be a problem for Fox. Is arwing any better than LM?

But wouldn't Fox just you know... Die if he's got hit with Thunder when it strikes down his Arwing? I would guess that the electricity would go all the way to Fox himself, with a slight chance of paralysis even.

Mewtwo is also able to float himself. I think he should be allowed to do so in this match up, cause you know... it's Fox he's fighting. That way, he could possibly avoid some of the Landmaster's attacks while buffing up, or Recovering.

Brick Break should work on the barriers btw. <_< Yes, it only works on Barrier and Light Shield, but that's because Brick Break is a Pokemon move, and never appeared outside of it's franchise like every other move. Brick Break should be able to take Fox's barriers down. Still, Mewtwo would have to get in range of Fox to do so.

Sniper Rifle one hit ko'ed everything except Wolf, who had the highest hp. Anything after getting hit would then kill him. About 4 homing launchers would kill Wolf IIRC. It would take some time to kill him with a machine gun, less with a gatling. I would test, but i don't have assualt

I'm guessing then the Sniper Rifle would normally do also about 50% of damage to Mewtwo (minimally, just guessing) or something similar. Still, Mewtwo has the subs, and it isn't guaranteed Fox will survive when Mewtwo destroys his verhiles...

It depends on how fast Fox can take down M2's substitute. He could use an arwing smart bomb or the LM lasers. If fox gives M2 time to set up, he will lose.

Setting up would be pretty easy for Mewtwo when Fox flies the Arwing. It still will pack quite a punch to him, but the Arwing would be least effective. Landmaster would I think, be most effective, or maybe on foot even. Depends also on how quickly Fox dies.

With or without buffs, I think Mewtwo could OHKO Fox when he's on foot and has no barrier covering him.

 

[BSP]

You are aware that all time stopping is happens to only be blanking out the 4th dimension for said amount of time…in logic I could argue that anyone who has some sort of god power to create/destroy/change could deal with time stopping…plus it’s not like Sonic is the only one who can deal with it…Mario can flip dimensions as well…

Well, if you can convince the other people when the situation comes, sure.

The thing is…the more people needed equals the more energy used to make the transformation…and it’s not like Sonic can do it right away as well…he needs some time to build it up…

If rings are a game mech, then shouldn't Sonic be able to go Super whenever he wants? (talking about Sonic 3 and Knux gameplay)

Of course I’m right ^_^

Woo, party. My only thing is that if we follow this cutscene and say Sonic can be knocked out of SS, we follow them all, including the ones that show no limit on Super Sonic. I know you think it's infinite, this is aimed at everyone else

The types of stress he is in vary in other situations…like for example…in the one I’m talking about… he was trying to save something…not destroy them…

But he's still under a lot of stress right?

A. It wasn’t his chest…it was right below the chest but not the gut
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/zelda/images/a/a3/Ganondorf_Unarmed_(Twilight_Princess).png
B. It’s easy to compare Ganondorf’s situation to others…you know you don’t need a sword in the kisser right? God just about anything that would be fatal to another character will work at proving that they can take the stuff Ganondorf could…and I fail to see how you think Mario being beaten to a pulp, struck by lightning, and then thrown out of Peach’s castle that is flying in the air with Bowser’s…then living from it…is worse than Ganondorf’s sword wound…god there are so much more characters that live through worse in this thread…Ness/Lucas for example…
C. Bowser’s did not have help to come back…he is just an expert at necromancy black magic…Oh and I like how you don’t think DK’s being shot and beaten and then eventually breaking free I might add as worse than Ganondorf’s as well…

Ok, i see what you mean. They all have survived some pretty rough stuff. You should bring this up.

@Diddy Kong

Fox wouldn't die even if his vehicles went down. In assault, you would go to red health, but you would never die if your vehicle got destroyed (unless you're in an arwing only area). Fox wont die from a crash, but he'llbe very weak.

How would M2 floating help? The LM can shoot homing shots too.

If brick break did work, it would be fatal for M2 to go that close to Fox, he'd get mowed down with a gatling gun.

The sniper rifle will do a lot of damage, and Fox will live through any crash with critical health.

IDK, fox can take hits survive multiple crashes, IDK if psychic will one hit ko him. How exactly does psychic hurt again? Is it a wave of force, or something else?

How fast is M2? If he can teleport to dodge Fox's blasts, then slowly weaken the vehicle (or fox on foot) with psychic attacks, he could win.

 

[Ganonsburg]

*is back*

yeah, he's a smash character, but according to you guys he is immortal, invulnerable and all powerful.

he shouldnt even be bothered with, and just placed at the top so other characters get time in the spotlight.

as for the comment about telekinisis: isnt gravity a move mewtwo can learn? If so, he can control gravity, thus make the arwing/landmastah so incredibly heavy they wont function. Or perhaps just use psychic on fox inside the vehicle and knock him around inside?

You could say that the second person on the tier list (probably Samus) doesn't deserve the spotlight, and so on and so forth until you get to the bottom of the list. The point of making this list is to see who's the most capable of fighting these characters, so why exclude him? Anyway, this is GANON's time in the spotlight, in case you didn't notice the current Brawl tier list. He's got to win at something for being as powerful as he is.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

I'll compile a list of all the abilities Ganon's shown throughout the series. I'll be gone all day, so maybe I'll have it Sunday.

 

[missingnomaster]

*is back*

yeah, he's a smash character, but according to you guys he is immortal, invulnerable and all powerful.

he shouldnt even be bothered with, and just placed at the top so other characters get time in the spotlight.

as for the comment about telekinisis: isnt gravity a move mewtwo can learn? If so, he can control gravity, thus make the arwing/landmastah so incredibly heavy they wont function. Or perhaps just use psychic on fox inside the vehicle and knock him around inside?

Mewtwo can't get Gravity because it is a move tutor move and this is a wild Mewtwo. Psychic would not likely allow Mewtwo to bypass the Arwing or Landmaster.

 

[PowerBomb]

If Mewtwo were able to learn Gravity and made the Gravity that strong, Mewtwo wouldn't be able to move. Gravity affects everyone on the field.

 

[the king of murder]

How did he have ½ his power? He just didn’t have his mind because of his incomplete resurrection…if anything that is worse IMO than a guy who just wants to rule everything…something like this was going to destroy everything…

Where in the game script does it say he was weaker?

It´s obvious that Ganon hadn´t his full power aka Triforce of Power. My proof is that he was simply dead. If he had the ToP he would be immortal and it wouldn´t be necessary to revive him. But he was dead. That means he was able to assemble the complete Triforce before he died or something else. Ganon hadn´t the ToP and therefor no god protection and god power like he always had. Ganondorf is the most powerful character here.
Why don´t we give him credits for that?
He´s the worst character in brawl so this thread is his time to shine.

Topic: Mewtwo will always be faster than Fox because of Trick Room. This gives Mewtwo a liitle more advantage against Fox. But it will be a hard battle for sure.

 

[Sasha]

I think it´s obvious that Ganon hadn´t his full power aka Triforce of Power. My proof is that he was simply dead. If he had the ToP he would be immortal and it wouldn´t be necessary to revive him. But he was dead. That means he was able to assemble the complete Triforce before he died or something else. Ganon hadn´t the ToP and therefor no god protection and god power like he always had. Ganondorf is the most powerful character here.
Why don´t we give him credits for that?
He´s the worst character in brawl so this thread is his time to shine.

The words "I think" make the rest of your comment non-canon, thus irrelevant.

Topic: Mewtwo will always be faster than Fox because of Trick Room. This gives Mewtwo a liitle more advantage against Fox. But it will be a hard battle for sure.

What does Trick Room do?

 

[Lord Viper]

If Mewtwo were able to learn Gravity and made the Gravity that strong, Mewtwo wouldn't be able to move. Gravity affects everyone on the field.

☆ That could work, now Fox has to focus on his ground combat. =3 ☆

What does Trick Room do?

☆ Makes the Pokemon with the lower speed always attack before the Pokemon with the higher speed. If Fox is faster than Mewtwo, Mewtwo will move faster than Fox, however if Mewtwo where to be faster, Mewtwo will be slower than Fox. ☆