Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[DarkRenji]

No one mentioned Samus yet?

 

[St. Viers]

maybe becauseshe doesn't fir the requirements? gasp, what a suprise, no wonder no one mentioned her ...


more seriously, what B move can she use to stop spam?

 

[RizardoLawless]

Probably Zelda

 

[DarkRenji]

maybe becauseshe doesn't fir the requirements? gasp, what a suprise, no wonder no one mentioned her ...


more seriously, what B move can she use to stop spam?

Missiles.

And maybe she doesn't fit the description that well after all, after looking at it again. I thought of it because I saw SamuraiPanda posting in Tier discussion about how underestimated Samus was. She does have good arials though (Bair, Dair can kill at low percentage).

 

[Shök]

Man, you guys know your stuff!
IMHO
I agree with MK, he is at the top. But he has situational kill moves.
Snake should be top also but he has a pretty bad aerial game and is juggle bait. His recovery is nice, but easily gimpable if you're smart.
Falco is BY FAR the best starfox character.
ROB and G and W are unexpectedly good.
Diddy K is about the same level as the two above.

Now, my guess for number 8 would be.....
MARTH (my main)
But it's probably Ike because Marth has a SICK aerial game.
Can't wait till you talk about him!

 

[Theftz22]

Man, you guys know your stuff!
IMHO
I agree with MK, he is at the top. But he has situational kill moves.
Snake should be top also but he has a pretty bad aerial game and is juggle bait. His recovery is nice, but easily gimpable if you're smart.
Falco is BY FAR the best starfox character.
ROB and G and W are unexpectedly good.
Diddy K is about the same level as the two above.

Now, my guess for number 8 would be.....
MARTH (my main)
But it's probably Ike because Marth has a SICK aerial game.
Can't wait till you talk about him!

Ouch. Epic fail. A good Mk will finish you. Snake' recovery won't be gimped if you doi it BEFORE you get under the stage. G and W is definitely better than diddy and ROB. And your guess for marth/ Ike is so screwed up I'm losing IQ just looking at it

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

SHOK, these characters aren't posted in ORDER from best to worst, read the post more clearly

So they're not saying MK is the best character in the game, and etc.

and when you said its probably Ike cus Marth has a sick aerial game, sick=devestating, idk what you're talking about, may be you typed it wrong?

anyways, about the ReversePhysicology thing, i didn't think of that. I guess you're right But i'm still gonna stick to Yoshi just for fun.

and I guess the Wario Fart attack could also add to the "can KO you at low percentages with aerials" part.


And Vaul, what do you mean by "10char", unless if that was a random letter/number combination?

 

[JJR.O.B.]

G and W is definitely better than diddy and ROB.

R.O.B. is way better than diddy and G&W but G&W is better than diddy

 

[jakeadactyl]

#8 is obviously jigglypuff... its pound has priority over everything including lots of projectiles.

 

[pesticide]

Update #8: ?????

Next week's character will be a fun one to talk about. Underestimated by many, this character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent. But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options against long range or projectile spamming characters other than one of their B attacks. And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily.

Can you guess who next week's character will be?

i think olimar is #8.

he's underestimated IMO, his aerial game is pretty good, he doesnt have many options against long range or projectile spamming chars other thana one of his B attack (left / right B tosses pikmin. that's olimar's only projectile), his recovery is alright sometimes, but against smart opponents (aka opponents that edgeguard) he can be gimped quite easily

yea. i think it's olimar

 

[Theftz22]

No, probably not. Olimar is not underestimated and his aerial game is great but probably wont take you out at a low percent. And his recovery is NEVER fine.

JJR.O.B: ROB is not better than G and W.

 

[Gypsy Lee]

Don't know if anyone has said it, but it could be Luigi. (Down B to deal with projectile spam?) But, it's probably Wario.

 

[Intercept]

I officially change my guess to Wario. I wouldn't be surprised by Yoshi, Zelda, or Sonic though. If it is Wario, I think the hint's misleading because he is generally not underestimated AFAIK.

 

[SnatchForFree]

It's ness. Fits way better than wario in my opinion.

 

[Pure-???]

Next Week's character (#8) is jigglypuff. I have been destroyed on a regular basis by one particular jigglypuff mainer. and yes, I have beaten him when he uses her. one time with something undeniably the best thing ever to occur in a match.

 

[biohazard930]

Next Week's character (#8) is jigglypuff. I have been destroyed on a regular basis by one particular jigglypuff mainer. and yes, I have beaten him when he uses her. one time with something undeniably the best thing ever to occur in a match.

But her recovery is essentially non-gimpable.

 

[Pure-???]

But her recovery is essentially non-gimpable.

there's 3 things jiggy can use to recover: Jumping, Rollout, and pound. Jumping, that's fairly easy to stop, most of the time. If you let roll-out hit you over the edge, she'll be doomed, because jigglypuff locks up when rollout connects. As for pound, well, yes, that's hard to stop.

 

[manhunter098]

Jigglypuff is in no way easy to stop. The essential recovery for her is jumping, rising pounds help too, and so do normal ones, but her horizontal motion in the air is pretty much unmatched, and she falls quite slowly as well, making the need for using attacks to help recovery unnecessary. Furthermore due to her great aerial control, and low falling speed, you can dodge physical attacks without necessarily having to air dodge, and you can dodge projectiles and attacks with much longer range with an air dodge, and you wont loose much height in the process, so it wont really hinder your attempt at recovering either. Not to mention that Jigglypuff has a very strong aerial game, and she is pretty much equally at home floating over open space as she is above a stage, so you can even remain offensive in your attempt to recover with Jigglypuff. All of these options make Jigglypuff pretty much ungimpable.

 

[St. Viers]

pure, she isn't locked anymore afterwards...just along cool-down lag

I'm almost 100& sure

 

[Earthbound360]

Well the main reason I use this information is frm being a Sonic main so I am very quick in edge guarding and punishing attempts at recovery.

Okay

Yes but is he going to use it very often against projectile users?
For example Link and Pit. Mainly because PK fire doesn't have a great amount of range meaning if he faces Link or Pit he is going to have to get close.

If its a key part of his game then mmk you are maining him.

Lucas' PKF = Wolf's blaster in terms of use. This is why he does have a bit of trouble on projectile spammers.

Underrated applies to them as a character as a whole. Not their recovery ability.

I know, but this is just a component of why Ness is underrated. Ness is still underrated in other terms.

Why allow a Ness to get back on stage?
Your friends may not be noobs but they certainly aren't trying to pressure.
I find the best way to gimp Ness is to be more aggressive since it helps in limiting his options.
Magnet to Fair? Why would I approach you directly? I would be more likely to approach at an angle where the Fair won't hit me.
And yes I do play against a Ness mainer and he isn't a noob either. Though I do admit I do not play him very often.
During his recovery attempts I always attempt to get at him at an angle whereI can avoid the Fair and land my attack.

Ness can use the PSI magnet to stop him from dying in place of his double jump. This lets him then DI towards the stage and use his double jump in combination with his fair to defend himself. This ruins your ability to pressure him at an angle because of his unique double jump.

My opponents do pressure me. I play Marths and they pressure a lot with their range. I am able to pass them.

Play me. FC is to the left.

Yes but who is honestly going to attack a Ness during a PKT2?
That's just begging to be killed due to the priority of the move as well as how quickly it moves.

I said PKTRE, not just plain PKT2. PKTRE is using the tail of PKT to stun the enemy as they edgeguard you then blast them with PKT2. Almost alwyas results in a KO.

I am not going to be close enough for you to Uair me though. I'll be close enough so that I can eat the thunder when you use it but out of range of your Uair.
Or I would just drop a spring on the opponent r use a move that out ranges the Uair.

Again, Ness uses his double jump to defend himself. If you are above him, he can double jump and uair you.

Even without this, there is hardly any space that Ness needs to turn his PKT that wouldnt be covered by an fair. It's also easily avoided just by waiting to use PKT or magnet stalling.

And I wouldnt use Sonic as an argument for gimping recoveries as many of his kills do tend to be basedon recovery gimps.

You obviously missed the point.

K lets assume you already used your second jump. You PK thunder and I bair you.
You MUST use your PK thunder again if you are going to make for the ledge, in which case I can time things more easily so that if you do hit me the invincibility frames will prevent me from getting killed or knocked off the edge.
Or I hit you so that you'll be far enough away that while I am edge hogging you wouldn't normally be capable of sweetspotting the edge.

If you did have your second jump then thing would be more tricky since you would have more options and be capable avoiding my attack or countering my attempt.
however this typically would not occurs since usually when recovering the damage is high enough that when hit, the second jump must be used so as to avoid a potentially lethal KO.

Okay, Ness IS vulnerable when he has only PKT2 left, but if you do this, you have to pretty much hit him out of PKT2 which can be hard.

This also applies to Fire space animal moves, Lucarios, and Zelda's also then. THis makes his recovery not PUTRID, just below average.

And PKT2 travels a long distance. There are many places Ness can make it back without the need to sweetspot.

Howe often are you going to land the spike?
If I am approaching from below I am already attack and to my knowledge the Bair doesn't have a magnificent amount of range.

You dont have to land the spike. It has enough range and priority to be Lucas' safest landing.
Also, Lucas can use PKT for a safe landing. NOT PKT2, but PKT.
My point is its his safest landing.

Actually he does.
SJC.

I dunno what you mean here.
Basically, Im saying PSI magnet helps recovery horizontally, not vertically, just like Sonic's spindash.

Yes and how effective is that going to be?
By the time you use your PKT a second time your opponent will have edge hogged you.

Like I said, Ness and Lucas can make it back without the dire need to sweetspot unlike tether recoveries, Wolf, and Mario. This makes their recoveries at least better than those. Moreso for Lucas of course.

I am not saying the Lucas won't recover, but I am saying that it isn't as difficult to gimp Lucas as you are portraying it to be.
I have been punished for trying to edge guard a Ness or Lucas but that more often than not I usually manage to knock them far enough for a gimp.

Knocking an opponent far enough from the stage so that they cannot make it back =/= gimp.
Again, that's just proper edgeguarding.
The only TRUE way to gimp Lucas is to eat the thunder with an attack and NOT hit Lucas.
And PKT2 again, is one of the longer recovery moves in the game.

My mistake I was making a mistake on the trajectory of the zap jump. I was thinking along the lines of something more horizontal rather than vertical.
And yes you actually can stop a double jump but it requires very aggressive tactics and prediction.

Yes I know, but you missed the point. Im just saying that it's just as easy to stop a Zap jump as a double jump.

Apparently you are skimming my posts.. Read the part where I responded to your FD statement.
Lucas defines wavebouncing.
As I said the magnet pull would work well above the ledge since below it means you MUST zap jump.

My point is that the magnet pull is another potion to help Lucas recovery. It has its uses. Yes, you would have to be above the stage, but zapjumping to a magnet pull has been mastered and put to great use by Lucas players.

It saves lives man. There are places Lucas cannot recover with this, and those areas are generally inaccessible by most edgeguarders. And remember, after this, Luca can still tether or PKT2.

I am not saying that the zap jump leaves him vulnerable. I am talking about the moment BEFORE the zap jump not during the zap jump.

My argument is on before the actual zap jumping occurs. Not during the zap jump since it would be like trying to hit sonic during his ^B correct?

Well, even if you hit him before it, he can still zap jump. I mean, doing that will do just as much as hitting someone off the stage before they double jump. Even if you do hit him (at least, with an aerial that doesn't kill super hard), he will probably get up from it because of the super height gained by the ap jump. You DO realize how high he goes right?

And if you try to hit him before he jump, he can use his double jump to defend himself with an aerial in effect. This is Lucas' defense time.

And for the last part, wrong. Hitting Lucas' zap jump =/= hitting Sonic's spring jump. He doesn't get it back.

The majority of characters do have better recoveries. There aren't many that have an average recovery on par with CF.

For Ness, yes, for Lucas, maybe.
But their recoveries are still not as bad as you make them out to be. I can name at least 10 characters with worse recovery. At least, to me.

Noone is denying that it helps.
What situations it can be used in.
Can it be used all the time from both below and above the ledge? Does it leave you vulnerable or ina state where your opponent can pressure you?

It can be used in any situation in which Lucas is knockd high over the stage off stage. In the corner. Same situations that Sonic' spindash could help.

It doesn't leave Lucas very vulnerable since it has little lag.

It's also used to preserve his double jump for defense.

I use Link.
Tether recoveries are poor, there are better options.
Best time to use a tether recovery is when you get smashed horizontally. In which case you airdodge and tether grab the ledge.

My point being it's not useless. It can be used for a quick, long, and safe sweetspot.

How often are you above the opponent?
As well as how high?

the same angle most kill moves shoot you at with proper DI: About 45 degrees up and off.

Fox is more often going to his his Over B rather than his fire fox since it gets him to the ledge more quickly and safely and more often than not, he will DI up and diagonally.
Zelda's Farore's wind is more difficult to predict in where she will be. Its not too hard to judge where a Lucas or Ness swill be aiming their PKT2.
Lucario takes a shorter amount of time to start his recovery than Lucas and Ness.

Fox can be pushed out of his illusion so easily and force him to drop to Firefox level.
Farore's wind isnt that hard to predict IMO. They can only go on stage or sweetspot RIGHT above the ledge. Zelda has limited horizontal movement after FW, so edgehogging is easy. If she goes on stage, it's obvious when she will since she cannot pass through solid.
With Ness and Lucas, the way that you can play around with PKT and trick the opponents can make prediction hard.
Lucarios recovery move still has enough time to be hit during his recovery.

But still, you are missing the point. Ness and Lucas' ability to be hit during the charge of their recovery isn't too hampering just like the others.

The reason I say impractical is because the recovery for Ness and Lucas give off the appearance of being more situational.
Where as Fox, Zelda and Lucario aren;t as restricted or appear as vulnerable.

Yes, that fits the clue. It APPEARS to be situational, but is not. And I think you are falling for the misconception. They aren't as vulnerable as you think.

Not saying that it takes forever to setup. However more often than not your opponent usually is going to know what you are going to use and will place themselves in a position to make it more difficult.

Okay, but this will apply to a lot of other people also as stated above.

Fox, Lucario and Zelda don't have to set their recovery up.
They can always do it without any setup other than DIing a certain direction.
For Lucas and Ness it has the appearance of requiring more and with more oppurtunities to take advantage of.

What? They dont need anymore DI than other characters at all.

I'll concede concerning lucas' recovery but I am still doubtful concerning Ness.

Just dont assume they have one of th worst recoveries in the game, especially Lucas. Recovery is poor, but not near the worst. Like I said, I think at least 10 chaaracters have worse.

I don't recommend you say such things since there are many ways it can be misconstrued.

Okay sorry. I just hate when I make a huge argument and it gets left on the previous page. Then people ignore it.

 

[Pure-???]

pure, she isn't locked anymore afterwards...just along cool-down lag

I'm almost 100& sure

well, it must be really long, because that perosn I mentioned who's destroyed me? they said they've died from using rollout to recover when a crate was on the edge.

 

[The Idealist]

i like falco a lot, but i can see his weaknesses -_-

 

[ShadowLink84]

Okay



Lucas' PKF = Wolf's blaster in terms of use. This is why he does have a bit of trouble on projectile spammers.

That's a poor comparison. a good wolf is actually going to make use of his shine more often than he would his blaster.
I understand what you mean though.

I know, but this is just a component of why Ness is underrated. Ness is still underrated in other terms.

Ah okay.

Ness can use the PSI magnet to stop him from dying in place of his double jump. This lets him then DI towards the stage and use his double jump in combination with his fair to defend himself. This ruins your ability to pressure him at an angle because of his unique double jump.

Doesn't PSIM continue moving forward in the middle of a double jump?
I don't believe it can be used to survive a smash unless it acted like Sonic's neutral B and immediately stopped him in mid air.

My opponents do pressure me. I play Marths and they pressure a lot with their range. I am able to pass them.

Play me. FC is to the left.

I would like to but I won't have wifi until around June 5 or 7.
I am in PA and hav no access to wifi.
unless you live in PA or NY then I'll be glad to have a match with you in person.

I said PKTRE, not just plain PKT2. PKTRE is using the tail of PKT to stun the enemy as they edgeguard you then blast them with PKT2. Almost always results in a KO.

My apologies on the mistake. II haven't really been hit by the tail more often though which is the reason I don't see its usefulness.

Again, Ness uses his double jump to defend himself. If you are above him, he can double jump and uair you.

Yes but in doing so he ends up sacrificing the double jump.
Lack of hitstun means that while he does hit the enemy, they can airdodge to cut the hitstun and immediately attack again.
Unless the opponent is at a higher percentage they won't be knocked far away enough by the Uair.
Of course I am assuming the opponents hit you more horizontally than vertically.

Even without this, there is hardly any space that Ness needs to turn his PKT that wouldnt be covered by an fair. It's also easily avoided just by waiting to use PKT or magnet stalling.

And I wouldnt use Sonic as an argument for gimping recoveries as many of his kills do tend to be basedon recovery gimps.

Yeah I noticed that error. I'll use a different character as an example then that can edge guard decently.
Overall though a decent number of the characters can wait until you are close before going out to negative space.

If its Lucas magnet stalling I can understand but magnet stalling with Ness doesn't seem as useful because it can't be used repeatedly and would mean he could harm himself when he attempts to dodge an attack. UNless I made an error and Ness can magnet stall repeatedly in the air. As in using his magnet over and over.

Okay, Ness IS vulnerable when he has only PKT2 left, but if you do this, you have to pretty much hit him out of PKT2 which can be hard.

Yes thats true. Usually most do not aim to hit him out of PKT2 unless they have a disjointed hitbox.
Most just grab the ledge if Ness is too low to get back onstage. if he does get back on stage they can ledge drophop (oh I like that name) and immediately hit Ness. Granted he may get back on the ledge but it would mean he could suffer a hit.

This also applies to Fire space animal moves, Lucarios, and Zelda's also then. THis makes his recovery not PUTRID, just below average.

Hmm okay I'll admit that.

And PKT2 travels a long distance. There are many places Ness can make it back without the need to sweetspot.

Roughly 3/4 of FD correct? Yes thats true it does have good range.
however the main idea for gimping Ness is simply to make use of prediction. it isn't too difficult to determine where Ness is going to move during a PKT2

You dont have to land the spike. It has enough range and priority to be Lucas' safest landing.
Also, Lucas can use PKT for a safe landing. NOT PKT2, but PKT.
My point is its his safest landing.

Okay.

I dunno what you mean here.
Basically, Im saying PSI magnet helps recovery horizontally, not vertically, just like Sonic's spindash.

Ah okay then I misunderstood what you had said earlier.

Like I said, Ness and Lucas can make it back without the dire need to sweetspot unlike tether recoveries, Wolf, and Mario. This makes their recoveries at least better than those. More so for Lucas of course.

Except that Wolf usually relies on his over B since he can actually move through the stage without having to grab onto the edge. (its crazy and leave him on the ground with very little lag)
Mario yeah he has difficulty approaching below the stage.

Knocking an opponent far enough from the stage so that they cannot make it back =/= gimp.
Again, that's just proper edgeguarding.
The only TRUE way to gimp Lucas is to eat the thunder with an attack and NOT hit Lucas.
And PKT2 again, is one of the longer recovery moves in the game.

gimping is considereda part of edgeguarding, knocking the opponent away so that if they attempt to recover, they cannot grab onto the ledge. Simply preventing recovery by placing them outside the recovery range.
That is the definition of gimping I am using.

Edge guarding is linked to gimping it does not necessarily mean you cannot hit the opponent to gimp them.

Look at sonic's spring gimp.
It doesn't kill but it knocks the enemy away from the ledge so that their recovery is ineffective.
As does his Double Fair or double Nair.
Even if they don't kill they still make it so your opponent cannot recover.
I know I keepusing sonic but he really is a good example of what gimping signifies.
Gimping simply means that whatever move you use doesn't kill the opponent. Just as hitting his PKT with a kick doesn't hit Lucas it still prevents him from recovering,

Yes I know, but you missed the point. Im just saying that it's just as easy to stop a Zap jump as a double jump.

okay.

My point is that the magnet pull is another potion to help Lucas recovery. It has its uses. Yes, you would have to be above the stage, but zapjumping to a magnet pull has been mastered and put to great use by Lucas players.

Yes but setting up a zap jump does require some time right? It wouldn't be too difficult to know what Lucas is plannng to do and would mean the opponent has a posible method of preventing the recovery.
Of course the timing would need to be exact but not extremely difficult correct?
Again sorry I tend to think as a Sonic user before generic so if I am making a mistake in general then feel free to point it out please.
.

It saves lives man. There are places Lucas cannot recover with this, and those areas are generally inaccessible by most edgeguarders. And remember, after this, Luca can still tether or PKT2.

True but I mean as to how quickly and easily he would pull it off and the amount of time he would be vulnerable or how predictable his recovery would be.

Well, even if you hit him before it, he can still zap jump. I mean, doing that will do just as much as hitting someone off the stage before they double jump. Even if you do hit him (at least, with an aerial that doesn't kill super hard), he will probably get up from it because of the super height gained by the ap jump. You DO realize how high he goes right?

Actually I am not too sure. I am guessing from the bottom of FD to just below the ledge yes?

And if you try to hit him before he jump, he can use his double jump to defend himself with an aerial in effect. This is Lucas' defense time.

Yes but no one is going to place themselves in a position where he can double jump and attack. successfully.

And for the last part, wrong. Hitting Lucas' zap jump =/= hitting Sonic's spr
ing jump. He doesn't get it back.

Oh no you misunderstand. I mean how difficult it is to hit Lucas during the actual zap jump.
Any gimping has to be done either before or afte rhte move ends since the speed of the move makes it difficult to hit.

That and Sonic's spring gives him invincibilty frames >.<

For Ness, yes, for Lucas, maybe.
But their recoveries are still not as bad as you make them out to be. I can name at least 10 characters with worse recovery. At least, to me.

True. I am not saying Lucas and Ness have the worst recoveries. I can think of other characters with poorer recoveries.
however I am saying that their recovery doesn't look fine all the time which was insinuated by the clue.

It can be used in any situation in which Lucas is knocked high over the stage off stage. In the corner. Same situations that Sonic' spindash could help.

Actually Sonic's spindash would be used where he has been hit by a hard smash that could KO him. The spindash lowers the amount of knock back and SJC cancel it entirely.
Which is another situation I am presenting.

When Lucas or Ness are hit by a strong smash that would kill them what move would they use to prevent death other than their aerial jump.
Maybe Lucas' magnet but I don't think Ness has anything other than his double jump to cancel or lower horizontal knockback.

It doesn't leave Lucas very vulnerable since it has little lag.

It's also used to preserve his double jump for defense.

Ah okay.

My point being it's not useless. It can be used for a quick, long, and safe sweetspot.

True but I mean that the situation presented usually means he can use some other method to recover. It's usually why a Link player will very rarely use his tether despite how it can save him at damage past 300%

the same angle most kill moves shoot you at with proper DI: About 45 degrees up and off.

Hmm okay.

Fox can be pushed out of his illusion so easily and force him to drop to Firefox level.
Farore's wind isnt that hard to predict IMO. They can only go on stage or sweetspot RIGHT above the ledge. Zelda has limited horizontal movement after FW, so edgehogging is easy. If she goes on stage, it's obvious when she will since she cannot pass through solid.
With Ness and Lucas, the way that you can play around with PKT and trick the opponents can make prediction hard.
Lucarios recovery move still has enough time to be hit during his recovery.

A fox player will always use fox illusion outside of the opponents range. I've only twice managed to hit Fox out of his illusion and bring him down to firefox level.
As for Farore they don't necessarily have only two spots.
The angle can also be adjusted similar to fire fox so while they may only have two spots they can go to, she can maneuver her recovery so that it either hits you or places her just outside of the opponents more damaging attacks.
The only time she is vulnerable after her recovery and she doesn't appear to require as much of a setup for recovering that Lucas and Ness may require in the same situation.

But still, you are missing the point. Ness and Lucas' ability to be hit during the charge of their recovery isn't too hampering just like the others.

I am still too unsure. I just don't think the amount of time that it takes to set up a recovery as well as what is required to recover is as restricting as Zelda, Fox's and Lucario;;s.
Its probably a result of my lack of experience with NEss and Lucas (since they really are underused) so I'll probaby wait to play you and see how well you recover once I've knocked you off the stage.

Yes, that fits the clue. It APPEARS to be situational, but is not. And I think you are falling for the misconception. They aren't as vulnerable as you think.

Hmm okay I'll meet you there. as I mentioned my lack of experience facing those two characters may be a reason why I am doubtful

Okay, but this will apply to a lot of other people also as stated above.

True but I think Ness' and Lucas' is more predictable IMO. If they do move as quickly I think its how they recover and how predictable it is.
I just can't see it as being unpredictable like Farore's wind or ridiculously fast like Fox and Falco.

What? They dont need anymore DI than other characters at all.

Hmm okay.

Just dont assume they have one of th worst recoveries in the game, especially Lucas. Recovery is poor, but not near the worst. Like I said, I think at least 10 chaaracters have worse.

I don';t they have the worst of the worst recovery. But that theirs is towards the worser side

Okay sorry. I just hate when I make a huge argument and it gets left on the previous page. Then people ignore it.

Me and you both.

If i manage to get wifi soon I'll definitely add you and play against you.

 

[Earthbound360]

Will respond...
Tommorrow. You make long arguments. But that's a good thing.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

I am legitimately surprised that more people aren't saying the very, VERY obvious choice of Wario.

Wario is the aerial king of Brawl. Seriously. His movement in the air is on par with Jiggly's, all of his aerials have high priority and at least decent damage, and his air dodge is excellent. His Dair is comparable with Yoshi's (minus the spiking but also with zero lag), and his Uair is one of the best low damage killers in the game.

Wario has NO RANGE ON THE GROUND. Zero. None. Zip. Ftilt and Dtilt are his longest reaching attacks, and while they are excellent to hit, they both have pretty poor ending lag. Bite (Neutral B), is his only defense against projectiles, and it only works on some of them. But then, you should be in the air most of the time anyway.

Wario can either recover from everything or nothing. Wario is almost completely dependent on his Bike to survive. This is a problem for two reasons. If your opponent gets ahold of the bike, you're pretty much screwed, AND if you do use it successfully, it's pretty easy to telegraph and intercept. Corkscrew is a mean attack, but a blah recovery, and the fart, while awesome, is extremely limited.

It seems to fit WAY better than anyone else in the roster.

Nailed it. Plus, although they say that they're not listing the characters in any order, you have to admit that ll the previous ones are very good. wario players have been placing high at least here in AZ and Cali.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Update #8: ?????

Next week's character will be a fun one to talk about. Underestimated by many, this character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent. But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options against long range or projectile spamming characters other than one of their B attacks. And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily.

Can you guess who next week's character will be?

As I said before, this is definitely Wario.

1) He is underestimated by many, most place him in mid or low tier
2) Has a good air game than can KO at low percents
3) Has a crappy ground game
4) Has trouble against projectiles spammers and long range attacks
5) Only defense against long range attacks and certain projectiles his his NeutralB, "Bite"
6) His recovery can travel a long distance but it's easy to edgeguard

 

[Pure-???]

As I said before, this is definitely Wario.

1) He is underestimated by many, most place him in mid or low tier
2) Has a good air game than can KO at low percents
3) Has a crappy ground game
4) Has trouble against projectiles spammers and long range attacks
5) Only defense against long range attacks and certain projectiles his his NeutralB, "Bite"
6) His recovery can travel a long distance but it's easy to edgeguard

actually, upon reassessment, it is wario. His Recovery is also situational. he has to have his bike available and a full charge on his down-B to get the most out of it.

but rollout is still very interceptable.

 

[manhunter098]

well, it must be really long, because that perosn I mentioned who's destroyed me? they said they've died from using rollout to recover when a crate was on the edge.

Im pretty sure that 3 things affect the amount of lag that you get after you make contact with rollout.


1: The amount that Rollout was charged.
2: Distance already covered with Rollout before it made contact.
3: Well it cancels the lag when you hit the ground, so thats also a way to change the amount of end lag.


Im not sure exactly if these are correct. But I KNOW that the time you are left open after doing Rollout is not until you stop falling, it does end and if it ends before you fall to your death you can still recover. Either way you dont need Rollout for a successful recovery with Jigglypuff.

 

[biohazard930]

but rollout is still very interceptable.

And that's why you don't use it to recover. Her aerial maneuverability is great. Why not use it?

 

[Ants]

wow, everyone seems to be converting to the "its wario" choice.

Wario has been a popular choice for recent tourneys, he is not underestimated.

Wario can either recover from everything or nothing. Wario is almost completely dependent on his Bike to survive. This is a problem for two reasons. If your opponent gets ahold of the bike, you're pretty much screwed, AND if you do use it successfully, it's pretty easy to telegraph and intercept. Corkscrew is a mean attack, but a blah recovery, and the fart, while awesome, is extremely limited.

Leaving the bike on the stage is pretty much asking to be gimped. I'm sure the hint is assuming that you at least know how to recover properly with the character.

And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily.

In comparison to most of the other characters in the roster, wario's recovery is great, definitely above average and I doubt it would be limited to just "fine sometimes".

 

[goldemblem]

I think its peach, has amazing recovery above the stage and it sucks if she its too low and can be gimped, she can also pseudo pillar u and keep going at low percents, or it could be wario but i doubt it

 

[Pure-???]

And that's why you don't use it to recover. Her aerial maneuverability is great. Why not use it?

Becasue rollout is a great offensive move, and most people wouldn't think to intercept it, because getting hit by it is usually bad. It's an extremely useful way to recover, if only because it's useful to hit with after you land.

 

[St. Viers]

that's a horrible reason, and one that will get you gimped against any good player, though they could jut wait and smack you out of it >_>

 

[biohazard930]

Becasue rollout is a great offensive move, and most people wouldn't think to intercept it, because getting hit by it is usually bad. It's an extremely useful way to recover, if only because it's useful to hit with after you land.

Let's assume you don't get intercepted. Once Jiggs starts the move, it's easy to see what she is going to do. Thus, the opponent can prepare for it onstage and punish you once you land. I mean, Rollout can surely be used (I've done it before), but I just think that her options in the air usually trump the move.

 

[Pure-???]

True. but you'd be amazed how hard the timing is. and there's always turnaround, so unless there's a platform nearby to jump to.

adn St. Viers, it all depends on distance, if charged from a safe distance, the average character won't beable to reach and attack her without falling off the bottom. only other flying characters will have much luck, like another Kiggly, meta-knight, or kirby. Pit, ROB and DeDeDe, as well.

 

[Hypnotoad]

i think its DDD, hands down.
-his multiple jumps and his up b seem like a good recovery but his up b is very easy to counter if you know how and he gets very little height from his extra jumps.
-his side b (waddle dee toss) is the only answer he has against projectiles or long range opponents (his ftilt has good range but is easily avoided)
- and his air game is amazing, is bair and fair can take people out at very low %s

 

[biohazard930]

i think its DDD, hands down.
-his multiple jumps and his up b seem like a good recovery but his up b is very easy to counter if you know how and he gets very little height from his extra jumps.
-his side b (waddle dee toss) is the only answer he has against projectiles or long range opponents (his ftilt has good range but is easily avoided)
- and his air game is amazing, is bair and fair can take people out at very low %s

But he's not underestimated at all. He's quite popular.

 

[Pure-???]

i think its DDD, hands down.
-his multiple jumps and his up b seem like a good recovery but his up b is very easy to counter if you know how and he gets very little height from his extra jumps.
-his side b (waddle dee toss) is the only answer he has against projectiles or long range opponents (his ftilt has good range but is easily avoided)
- and his air game is amazing, is bair and fair can take people out at very low %s

But he's not underestimated at all. He's quite popular.

Not only that, but Dedede's recovery is phenomenal and next to impossible to stop. I think he has super armor on the way up, but I might be wrong.

 

[biohazard930]

Not only that, but Dedede's recovery is phenomenal and next to impossible to stop. I think he has super armor on the way up, but I might be wrong.

I believe you're right, but I don't know exactly how much SA he has.

 

[Browny]

dededes recovery is extremely punishable against anyone with a powerful aerial finisher. he can have his SA on the way up, but when he lands hes got more than enough lag for anyone to take cheap shop at him. if he cancels it at the top, its probably just as bad. going into helpless makes it too easy to take him out with a lightning kick, super jump punch etc.