Alou
Smash Cadet
DeDeDe has some great recoveries. I'm not sure on tournaments, but I don't think he has had as much wins as some. He also does have a pretty good close range game with that lovely hammer and grab stuff.
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Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
biohazard930
Smash Apprentice
Could you provide an example of his nonpunishable recovery?
manhunter098
Smash Lord
Phantasm if used correctly is fast enough that its tough enough to punish to be worthy of consideration for the hint. Though some good mindgames can definitely let you punish him for it from time to time, it will still be a bit iffy as to successfully punishing it or not.
Off stage DDD can actually recover quite well, provided hes actually below it, the problem with him lies in the fact that he can be edge hogged, but of course if you see it coming then you just need to keep on going up, if they await you on stage then you just cancel it.
However when DDD uses his recovery on stage...there is no way you CANT punish him for it.
JJR.O.B.
Smash Ace
this week's character discussion is LUCAS
manhunter098
Smash Lord
Well you have two options with Phantasm, sweetspot, or recover above the stage, if your opponent anticipates the sweetspot you should still have enough time to recover above the stage with it and since it covers so much distance so quickly its hard to punish. It also has a disjointed hitbox below it too, so if you pretty much have to stick a higher priorty attack right in front of Falco in order to stop the Phantasm.
If you have a projectile though, you could probably feint at trying to gimp his recover and fire a turnaround shot towards where he will Phantasm, but I havent had the chance to put that theory into use yet, and it would probably only work once or twice before your opponent figures it out. That said you probably wont kill him with that unless hes at very high damage and you are playing as Samus or Lucario. In most cases it would just be a free hit for what is likely to be less than 10% damage. Either way the lack of a strong vertical recovery for Falco ensures that he isnt a definite for the answer to the hint. He still only really qualifies as a very strong maybe.
The only part of this hint Im really unsure about is the tournament standings for characters, and what is meant by the very vague portion of the hint about the tournament placing.
How come they are not meeting the expectations of only some, when nearly everyone thinks they are a strong competator?
That said I might be taking that part as being a bit too meaningful to the hint, but I really pay no attention to tournament results and stuff, so I definitely need enlightenment there.
If you have a projectile though, you could probably feint at trying to gimp his recover and fire a turnaround shot towards where he will Phantasm, but I havent had the chance to put that theory into use yet, and it would probably only work once or twice before your opponent figures it out. That said you probably wont kill him with that unless hes at very high damage and you are playing as Samus or Lucario. In most cases it would just be a free hit for what is likely to be less than 10% damage. Either way the lack of a strong vertical recovery for Falco ensures that he isnt a definite for the answer to the hint. He still only really qualifies as a very strong maybe.
The only part of this hint Im really unsure about is the tournament standings for characters, and what is meant by the very vague portion of the hint about the tournament placing.
Nearly everyone? Who is nearly everyone? Everyone as in the BR? Or everyone on the boards?
How come they are not meeting the expectations of only some, when nearly everyone thinks they are a strong competator?
That said I might be taking that part as being a bit too meaningful to the hint, but I really pay no attention to tournament results and stuff, so I definitely need enlightenment there.
Airgemini
Chansey
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Does anyone not notice that it cant be a character with multiple projectile attacks?!
It can only be a character with one projectile attack.
So I'm definately leaning towards Zelda.
It can only be a character with one projectile attack.
So I'm definately leaning towards Zelda.
manhunter098
Smash Lord
What limits it to one projectile? "Projectile game" simply means their ability to use their arsenal of projectiles, no matter how big, or small that arsenal may be, it needs only to exist.
whitshadw8
Smash Rookie
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This week's character is someone who nearly everyone thinks is a very strong competitor, but strangely isn't placing as well in tournaments as some would expect. Perhaps nobody has tapped into the character's true potential yet? One way or another, this character can be frustrating to approach with the character's great projectile game, but is no slouch when you get in close. Couple that with a recovery that is hard to punish, whether you use it in the air or on the ground, and you have a character that only very few would enjoy playing against.
Hmm perhaps Peach?
Makes sense to me that she isn't doing as well in tournaments since her playing style has changed tremendously from Melee. Most ppl have quit this character because of her new approaches. Her turnips are pretty annoying and her float is pretty unpredictable so it's hard to punish. The recovery (i.e. the floating) when used on the ground for Peach is used offensively, so it's hard to punish her for floating when she uses it on the ground.
Hmm perhaps Peach?
Makes sense to me that she isn't doing as well in tournaments since her playing style has changed tremendously from Melee. Most ppl have quit this character because of her new approaches. Her turnips are pretty annoying and her float is pretty unpredictable so it's hard to punish. The recovery (i.e. the floating) when used on the ground for Peach is used offensively, so it's hard to punish her for floating when she uses it on the ground.
manhunter098
Smash Lord
I dont know about Peach, if her floating actually counts as a recovery to those in the BR, then it might be her, but I dont see her Turnips as particularly troublesome since you can just steal them and throw them back at her, since they travel slowly. Also its hard to float on the ground, you have to jump first, even if you are only a tiny bit above the ground when you are actually floating.
Airgemini
Chansey
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I dont think its Peach.
Her projectile isnt as great anymore since her Turnips have been seriously downgraded and disappear when attacked or even sheilded, and can be caught easily when or when not performing an attack.
From what I remember Peach is sort of placing well in tourneys.
Technically her floating isnt her recovery move. It just aids it. Using her Parasol on the ground isnt the greatest idea unless theyre generally above you because when she lands she lags and cannot cancel the lag by fastfalling now thus leaving you vulnerable if your opponent has already landed. Her fastfalling btw is very slow when the Parasol is activated.
Her projectile isnt as great anymore since her Turnips have been seriously downgraded and disappear when attacked or even sheilded, and can be caught easily when or when not performing an attack.
From what I remember Peach is sort of placing well in tourneys.
Technically her floating isnt her recovery move. It just aids it. Using her Parasol on the ground isnt the greatest idea unless theyre generally above you because when she lands she lags and cannot cancel the lag by fastfalling now thus leaving you vulnerable if your opponent has already landed. Her fastfalling btw is very slow when the Parasol is activated.
matthewmilad
Smash Journeyman
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Who's that Pokeyman? It's Flaco!!! Hoorah!
But seriously, it's Falco. No one thinks Lucas should be doing well... he gets the poop infinited out of him by Marth, and his recovery isn't really good on the ground.
And LOL @ the guy who said Peach.
Edit: Also, everyone agrees Falco is very good, but he hasn't placed as well as Snake or Meta Knight, etc. etc. yet.
But seriously, it's Falco. No one thinks Lucas should be doing well... he gets the poop infinited out of him by Marth, and his recovery isn't really good on the ground.
And LOL @ the guy who said Peach.
Edit: Also, everyone agrees Falco is very good, but he hasn't placed as well as Snake or Meta Knight, etc. etc. yet.
Kenjii
Smash Cadet
I say next one is Toon Link.
Blad01
Smash Lord
I hope that #7 is not Falco. I don't want this stickied "VIP" Discussion in the Falco's section...
Morrigan
/!\<br>\¡/
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They don't move this thread to the Falco section, they move the one that is in the SBR (which is probably better than all the threads there combined)I hope that #7 is not Falco. I don't want this stickied "VIP" Discussion in the Falco's section...
matthewmilad
Smash Journeyman
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It shouldn't be Toon Link.
"This week's character is someone who nearly everyone thinks is a very strong competitor, but strangely isn't placing as well in tournaments as some would expect. Perhaps nobody has tapped into the character's true potential yet? One way or another, this character can be frustrating to approach with the character's great projectile game, but is no slouch when you get in close. Couple that with a recovery that is hard to punish, whether you use it in the air or on the ground, and you have a character that only very few would enjoy playing against."
Toon Link's recovery isn't good on the ground....
Falco's phantasm is though. The next most arguable character would be Pit, and that would only be if they consider jumps and gliding as his recovery, and they neglect the Up B gimps as being punishable.
It should be Falco.
MiraiGen
Smash Ace
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I still really think it's Zelda.
Strong competitor, not placing that well - I haven't seen many Zeldas take top recently despite how powerful she is now.
Frustrating due to projectile game - Din's Fire is amazing, controllable, powerful, charges, and nearly instant. She may not have quantity but she makes up in quality (Huh huh huh).
Recovery that's hard to punish - She's very floaty and Fayore's Wind not only creates a burst effect where you land, but has 16 different points of direction (as opposed to the normal 8) and can be extremely useful on the ground, especially for mindgames.
No slouch when you get in close - NeutA, ftilt,Usmash, and Fsmash are all fantastic damage rackers or KO attacks, most of them trapping you and causing you to get hit repeatedly. Dsmash is probably one of the better, quicker "breathing room" attacks Brawl has. And let's not forget the sexy F/Bair Toe.
It could be Falco but every time I think "Recovery that's hard to punish" I remember his upB and kind of shake my head.
Can't be Toon Link - His 'recovery' totally changes it's effect while on the ground.
Strong competitor, not placing that well - I haven't seen many Zeldas take top recently despite how powerful she is now.
Frustrating due to projectile game - Din's Fire is amazing, controllable, powerful, charges, and nearly instant. She may not have quantity but she makes up in quality (Huh huh huh).
Recovery that's hard to punish - She's very floaty and Fayore's Wind not only creates a burst effect where you land, but has 16 different points of direction (as opposed to the normal 8) and can be extremely useful on the ground, especially for mindgames.
No slouch when you get in close - NeutA, ftilt,Usmash, and Fsmash are all fantastic damage rackers or KO attacks, most of them trapping you and causing you to get hit repeatedly. Dsmash is probably one of the better, quicker "breathing room" attacks Brawl has. And let's not forget the sexy F/Bair Toe.
It could be Falco but every time I think "Recovery that's hard to punish" I remember his upB and kind of shake my head.
Can't be Toon Link - His 'recovery' totally changes it's effect while on the ground.
matthewmilad
Smash Journeyman
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Falco's primary means of recovery is his illusion, not Fire Bird. And all though Zelda is much improved, most people realize that she still isn't really THAT great as a whole.
Falco has a lot more hype and has still not done exceedingly well in tourneys as it seems he should. I'm still betting on Falco.
Edit: Oh, and I still don't see as much of a case for using the recovery move on-stage for Zelda as Falco. Also, while Zelda's recovery is infinitely less punishable than before, it is still punishable IMO.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
umm... yeah I'm gonna have to call shenanigans on this. Zelda is fantastic.
Blad01
Smash Lord
Yes, i know ^^
By "there" you mean in the Falco's section ? I don't think it will be better than all the thread there combined at all ôO
Oh Snap
Smash Ace
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8Ior-Oxe_jU
Lol, it's obviously not going to help Zelda win the match, but it's pretty irritating to be fighting someone that uses Zelda like that as shown in the video.
matthewmilad
Smash Journeyman
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You must be dillusional. Every reasonable attempt at a tier list even places her as leading the bottom third of characters.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say... you're proving my point, and then you go and say "Falco sinks like a stone"? Wtf?
Yes, the hint says recovery. Meaning Falco's Forward B, which is his primary recovery method.
"I don't think you can make a point about recovery until you ballpark everything that could be used as recovery". You go on proving my point by saying that too. Forward B = his hard to punish recovery that is also used on-stage. So either you are confused and contradicting yourself, or I'm just not getting what you mean when you say, "Besides, Falco sinks like a stone."
matthewmilad
Smash Journeyman
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Lol. You can punish the poop out of that if ur smarter than your opponent. Besides, the Ness technically should have won that match. You know, if he wasn't dumb enough to stand there at high damage as the timer is about to end.
JJR.O.B.
Smash Ace
i still think it is lucas because he has an awesome projectile game and his recovery is super hard to punish if you use his upb correctly
MiraiGen
Smash Ace
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I mean Zelda is lighter and floatier than Falco, to start.
And the point I'm saying is that "Recovery" in this case seems to mean "All recovery methods." Falco's Fire Bird is pretty awful. Also, I don't see Falco's Phantasm being nearly as useful as Fayore's Wind on the ground.
redgreenblue
Smash Ace
ahahahahahahahahaha
TehBo49
Smash Ace
Zelda seems like a good choice, but the recovery on the ground doesn't make any sense at all. I still think it's either Toon Link or Pikachu.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
that's just dead wrong. Most tier lists place her top half at the very least, and the ones I think seem most reasonable put her somewhere solidly in top third.
Oh Snap
Smash Ace
Have you really tried predicting when and where Zelda is going to re-appear when she has about 16+ places to teleport? On the FD, she doesn't have too many choices since there's only one big platform, but on others like the Moses Island she has a lot of places to teleport to. It's easier said then done.
Of course, it's impossible to win a match with the use of Farore's Wind like that.
goodkid
Smash Lord
I think its either Zelda, Pit, or Pika.
Browny
Smash Hater
zeldas recovery is punishable to anyone not named ike. its just not feasiable to use it against anyone quick who knows how far it goes, which is easy to figure out with enough practice
^^to elaborate, she has 16 possiblities, but how many are viable?
depending on placement on the stage, one of the sides may not be a viable direction. Going up will be punished, no matter in what direction, and going down/towards the opponent can be punished if he simply waits.
SO um, yeah, great in theory, but not when actually playing
depending on placement on the stage, one of the sides may not be a viable direction. Going up will be punished, no matter in what direction, and going down/towards the opponent can be punished if he simply waits.
SO um, yeah, great in theory, but not when actually playing
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
she still normally has at least 4, that's enough to be unpredictible.
manhunter098
Smash Lord
Floaty makes things more punishable imo. The faster you fall the faster you hit the safety of the ground and gain even more methods to dodge attacks. While falling faster does make your ability to recover harder, it makes punishing your recovery harder too.
Second the Phantasm covers enough ground, in spite of being predictable that its difficult to punish on the ground, plus it has a huge hitbox, so its actually a viable option to do damage to your opponent. Startup on it is also faster than Fayore's Wind.
I highly doubt that it requires all of their recovery moves to be hard to punish. The statement could potentially apply to more than one move, but it definitely doesnt mean that all of their recovery options have to be hard to punish. Also, Im pretty sure that in context, recovery is singular, and only applies to one recovery move.