Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[manhunter098]

I'm no expert, but couldn't you mix up Falco's Phantasm recovery with a Firebird to the ledge if you thought an opponent was becoming wary? And how punishable is the Phantasm in the middle of the move? If it's not, then to punish it, the opponent would need to be farther from the edge, giving Falco the time needed to safely Firebird.

Well I know the priority isnt too high, and I dont think that any of the move has a disjointed hitbox either, but Im not positive about that part. I know if you stuck say a Luigi using n-air between Falco and the edge though, that Falco will end up flying if he uses Phantasm. I suppose you could switch it up to a Firebird, but if they edge hog you after attempting to block your Phantasm which they will probably have enough time for with some characters, though others it would definitely be harder to do with, that they can pretty much ensure your death, and it could prove better to just use the Phantasm and take the hit if it wont get you killed.

zelda's up is very punishable when used as recovery, it has a long start up time and, when combined with her slow fall speed, gives the other player a big opportunity to punish unless they land directly on the stage or on the ledge, which usually won't happen if they are coming from below the stage

EDIT: Falcos up b is the easy move in the game behind ganons utilt to punish, seriously, you can punish it mid move because it has no priority and it was not talking about phantasm, which is a sideb. not falco

How do you know its not talking about Phantasm assuming that the character is indeed Falco? Simply put you dont. You can only assume one way or the other, and since Phantasm is a *recovery move* since it helps you to recover and it leaves you vulnerable after you use it assuming it ends in midair, it fits the description of a recovery move very well...of course I am just assuming with rather credible evidence here that its a recovery move.

 

[ph00tbag]

B Rank is bad considering people were expecting him to be at least A rank. I suppose Lucas and Zelda are doing worse than originally thought, but they don't fit a lot of the criteria. Sure Zelda has a great projectile, but can be countered by SHDL. And Lucas' projectile? I mean it's okay at a close distance. But it's nowhere near as good as Din's Fire. His recovery is also easy to punish if you take too long to Thunder2 on stage into somebody.

I don't see how reflection moves have any relevance. Of course Zelda and Lucas have better projectile countering moves. But those were never mentioned in the hint.

You do make some valid points though.

B Rank generally only shows a general lack of representation, not poor performance. Characters in B Rank are "doing well in tournaments," according to Ankoku. In other words, Falco is doing fine.

Also, Lucas' projectiles are fairly powerful, and one of them creates a veritable wall between him and his opponent, which makes camping very easy for him. You should also be wary of saying Thunder2 is hard to punish. Lucas has very good DI after Thunder2. There's a lot that goes into the use of it, same as with Farore's Wind.

Finally, protection from projectiles = better camping, and they can't be forced to approach by projectile spam, leaving their opponent to approach them. Lucas and Zelda both have a lot going for them in that category.

 

[biohazard930]

I've lightning kicked a phantasm once, and in melee, I once got a kill by jiggly resting the middle of a phantasm once....BTW I know it's hard to punish... I just thought I mention this for fun

I must admit, that's pretty freaking awesome. :D

 

[undyinglight]

I think it is King Dedede

 

[UnSaxon51]

One way or another, this character can be frustrating to approach with the character's great projectile game,

Rob would have fit here, but he's been taken at this point.
Other possibilities are Olimar and Toon Link for newcomers, and Zelda and Pikachu for veterans.

but is no slouch when you get in close.

Same four still apply, but Pikachu and Toon Link have the advantages here.

Couple that with a recovery that is hard to punish, whether you use it in the air or on the ground,

Olimar fails here. Zelda is mediocre (better, but not great). Toon Link's suffers on the ground a bit. My vote goes for Pikachu.

and you have a character that only very few would enjoy playing against.

I HATE PIKACHU.

 

[Binx]

I think it's Sheik this time, she has a great projectile game and her up b is pretty broken now.

 

[Http]

I love looking at these every week. I never thought that I'd have a reason to look forward to Tuesday. The level of insight that the guys in the BR have -and even sometimes in General Discussion- is a great and informative read that definately. For the most part, I like the fact that it seems that higher priority character are getting... well, higher priority and based on this clue, it doesn't seem to be heading in any different direction (It's obviously TL, but you never know).

So basically, this was a great idea and great job =D.

 

[TyrantBandit]

its down to toon link and pikachu but i think toon link cause he is more often used in tournaments and is expected to place higher but doesnt.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

it's not down to TL and pikahu... zelda or falco and pikachu maybe, but TL's recover is rather easily punished actually.

 

[biohazard930]

I think it is King Dedede

His recovery is easily punished, unless there's something besides his UpB that I don't know about.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

D3, Toon Link or Pikachu.

 

[TyrantBandit]

it's not down to TL and pikahu... zelda or falco and pikachu maybe, but TL's recover is rather easily punished actually.

I though TL because even though his recovary is gimpable the discription says be able to use their recovery move on the ground and the air and that is really down to Lucas and the character that u and i said from there picachu and TL seem the most likely. though falco is a pretty good candidate.

 

[St. Viers]

This week's character is:
1.Someone who nearly everyone thinks is a very strong competitor, but strangely isn't placing as well in tournaments as some would expect.
Pika
Falco
Toon Link
Sheik
IC
Lucas
Olimar
Perhaps nobody has tapped into the character's true potential yet? One way or another, this character can be frustrating to approach with the character's great projectile game,
Falco
Toon Link
Pika
IC
Lucas
Olimar
Sheik

but is no slouch when you get in close.
Falco
Pika
TL
IC
Lucas
Olimar
Sheik
Couple that with a recovery that is hard to punish, whether you use it in the air or on the ground
Pika
Lucas
IC
and you have a character that only very few would enjoy playing against.

I'd say it's Pika, because

Lucas: not that great close up, but good enough imo to maybe qualify
IC: projectiles not *that* good

EDIT: forgot DeDeDe. His recovery isn't that hard to punish, though it does have invinsibility+the stars, meaning it could be that I just haven't seen a good DDD...

so:

Pika
DDD
Lucas
...
IC

 

[Azuriken]

I think it is King Dedede

Wow, your name is awesome... its like undie-ing light.... like underwearing light... i dont get it though... perhaps you go "light" on the underpants (thong?) or maybe u just freeball most of the time.

**undyinglight... boy if you were here I'd make you wear the stupid helmet.

 

[ph00tbag]

This week's character is:
1.Someone who nearly everyone thinks is a very strong competitor, but strangely isn't placing as well in tournaments as some would expect.
Pika
...

What?

Spoiler

10cherrycokes

 

[St. Viers]

@ph00t, is pika doing well in tournies? by word of mouth I thought ppl weren't doing great with pika...

but I could be wrong. tournie results are the one thing I don't look thorugh compulsively >_<

 

[ph00tbag]

@ph00t, is pika doing well in tournies? by word of mouth I thought ppl weren't doing great with pika...

but I could be wrong. tournie results are the one thing I don't look thorugh compulsively >_<

In Ankoku's Character performance rankings, Pikachu is the bottom of A Rank, something higher than 10th place, I believe. True, most of Pikachu's high placings are because of one or two very good players, but for the most part, the shock rat is doing perfectly fine.

 

[DanGR]

I was thinking "Olimar" the whole way until he said "a recovery hard to punish"

Lucas: not that great close up, but good enough imo to maybe qualify

I disagree. He's got a GREAT closeup game. It's either Pikachu or Lucas, but the backroom is obviously biased towards the higher tier characters, so... you do the math.

 

[Talek]

I'm guessing either TL or Pika, but i'm leaning mostly towards TL atm.

 

[manhunter098]

Its either Pikachu (fits best I think), Zelda, or Falco. No other characters fit nearly well enough to be likely candidates for #7. Though maybe, just a bit, Lucas deserves mention, since he does have a pretty good close up game, which doesnt necessarily have to mean they are strong on the ground. But really I think because of the grabbing issue he has with a number of characters that Lucas is not likely, though if that wasnt the case I would definitely say hes got at least as good a shot as Zelda or Falco, but I still say the electric rat is lucky number 7.

 

[redgreenblue]

Well I know the priority isnt too high, and I dont think that any of the move has a disjointed hitbox either, but Im not positive about that part. I know if you stuck say a Luigi using n-air between Falco and the edge though, that Falco will end up flying if he uses Phantasm. I suppose you could switch it up to a Firebird, but if they edge hog you after attempting to block your Phantasm which they will probably have enough time for with some characters, though others it would definitely be harder to do with, that they can pretty much ensure your death, and it could prove better to just use the Phantasm and take the hit if it wont get you killed.

Phantasm has a disjointed hitbox directly below Falco's body in the air. It's not huge by it's quite useful in recovery. Many Falco players don't realize how useful phantasm is from what I've seen.





How do you know its not talking about Phantasm assuming that the character is indeed Falco? Simply put you dont. You can only assume one way or the other, and since Phantasm is a *recovery move* since it helps you to recover and it leaves you vulnerable after you use it assuming it ends in midair, it fits the description of a recovery move very well...of course I am just assuming with rather credible evidence here that its a recovery move.

Thank you for responding to that. Once again just another case of people completely ignoring phantasm as a recovery move (which is its main purpose).

Spoiler

10GANONDORF

 

[Bowserlick]

I would say King DeDeDe. Everyone has high hopes that he would be on top of the tournament scene. He has good projectiles. The recovery part I am a little iffy on, but it does have some super frames and can be canceled. And when he lands, stars help clear some distance for people waiting and charging up their kill moves.

 

[phosphorus]

I'm thinking it's Toon link. lotsa projectiles, good melee, and his recovery is hard to gimp, because of how high he goes.

 

[Browny]

dededes up is useless when used on the ground, anyone with a KO aerial will punish him everytime.

toon links is useful, but i dont think its unpunishable (sp?)
falco suits it better

 

[Shök]

TOON LINK
I was right about R.O.B. too
It's not Olimar, his recovery is easily punishable.
Pikachu? Give me a break.
Get to Marth, people! We need someone to Match Snake and MK for top tier competition.

 

[redgreenblue]

TOON LINK
I was right about R.O.B. too
It's not Olimar, his recovery is easily punishable.
Pikachu? Give me a break.
Get to Marth, people! We need someone to Match Snake and MK for top tier competition.

You're relying... on past success in order to determine that you'll be right this time? Where are your anti-pikachu/pro-toon link arguments? The only legitimate point you have in this is the like about Olimar...

 

[Pentaoku]

I think it's Pikachu... Quick attack isn't exactly predictable off the stage, and on the stage it can be used for QA cancels... plus thunder jolt is a good projectile, and up close there's that annoying downsmash. Lots of people consider Pikachu to be in the higher end of tiers, but I haven't heard much about Tourney-Pikachus.

 

[JhMS]

Hard one,but im going to say Falco.One of the best characters in the game,hardest to approach I think,hasnt won a lot of tournaments(heck the only good Falco in youtube is Bombsoldier I think) and phanstam can be good to get away of the opponent and start lasering and shining like a SOB XD.
So overrall,Falco is my bet.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah... after playing brawl today... I'm going to have to harden my resolve... before I said it was NOT toon link.... now I have to say it's DEFINITELY NOT Toon Link.... his recovery is incredibly easy to punish... especially if used on the ground... all I had to do was charge a zelda Fsamsh just outside of it's range once it got used.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

My choice for next week..... Falco.


Now I haven't played very many R.O.B.s and I haven't played more than 1 competent R.O.B. but he seems to be a tough opponent. I honestly laughed at first but he's gotten to be a pain. Great recovery. Interrupts movement fairly well and from the bit I've seen effective in the air and on the ground. He's a tough one alright.

 

[AlexX]

Thank you for responding to that. Once again just another case of people completely ignoring phantasm as a recovery move (which is its main purpose).

Doesn't matter that it's a (great) recovery move, the point is that it's not Falco's only one, and his other one is far more easy to gimp. When they're talking about "recovery" in the clue, I doubt they're only talking about just one of their recovery moves (if more than one exists). Yeah, Falco mains will use Phantasm any chance they get, but that doesn't mean Fire Bird doesn't count as a recovery move anymore (especially since you're going to have to need vertical recovery at some point, such as if you get spiked, and in cases like that you'll have no choice but to use Fire Bird).

 

[Rhubarbo]

#7=Pit, pretty obvious???

 

[shrodekill]

yea i would say pit as my #1 vote because of WoI, but most things said would apply to pikachu as well with his QAC'ing being very effective.

 

[Time2Brawl]

I'm pretty sure it's Lucas.

Projectiles include pkfire, pkthunder, both easy to use (although bad because you hear "PK" right before he fires).
He isn't bad when you get close, fsmash is quick, jab is great.
Recovery is hard to stop, and can rack up to ~40%.

I don't see how Pit's recovery is effective on the ground.
I don't see how Pikachu's recovery is effective on the ground.

Toon Link fits the description pretty well. It could go either way. Whichever it is, I'd love to hear what they have to say.

 

[St. Viers]

^^because pikachu can Quick attack cancel into any aerial, and pit can "wing dash," both ground based techs >_>

 

[ChroNoMakeR]

This week's character is someone who nearly everyone thinks is a very strong competitor, but strangely isn't placing as well in tournaments as some would expect.

I think this describes Lucas really good.
Most people think that Lucas is a top tier character...
But in reality it's really hard to master him and to play him competitively in tournaments.

But that's just a guess

 

[Goodies]

It's definitely Toon Link. He really is too good and I'm quite surprised that more aren't using him. IMO he's at least the third best character potential wise and I won't be surprised to see him doing better in more tourneys.

 

[ThaRoy]

It shouted 'Peach' to me.

 

[Crizthakidd]

no its definietly toon link. lol ive been there, done that. swtiched to king ddd and going for the 7th year maining marth!

 

[goldemblem]

I think it's pit, toon link has done relatively good in tournaments, could also be lucas