Smash 4 at EVO?

[Arturito_Burrito]

Uh... You doubt how EVO is ran.

Yes I do, they make mistakes like having an "All Brawl" tournament take place, its an items/no banned stages rule set in case you don't know.

 

[Renji64]

Imma quote my previous post for this :

"While brawl is very competitive, it pace is too slow and, for those that aren't hardcore to that following, is very hard to watch. This isn't an opinion as brawl itself has a very low viewership vs Melee and Project: M. Even in the FGC Marvel vs Capcom 3 has the highest viewership due to its aggression and flashy gameplay. It is exciting to watch. Same reason Ultra Street Fighter 4 departed from vanillas zone based combat. Hell even casuals hate watching camping and slow play (see: Zero at Smash Bros Invitational reactions) even though it's super legit strat and requires a specialized skill set."

I want to see Smash 4 at EVO and I think they always put the new games in for at least one year so I can see it happening. I'm going to support it competitively as well by attending some locals. But remember, if we play it a lot and realize it doesn't reward skillful offensive play and it becomes too defensive and or has horrible game balance that has only 1 character viable at all, not only will competitors get bored, but the FANS will not enjoy watching or supporting it. Casual players HATED how zero played hungry box at the invitationals. He got boo'd. They hate slow play and camping. So it's not just the "poisonous" community as it's also the casuals who watch, play, and support the game.

Hell people in this thread mentioned the SF community and say they supported 4, but 4 also got several version changes and balances based upon community feedback. Vanilla was horribly campy and zone based with a very bad character balance and now in Ultra theres alot of viable characters and while theres still spacing and knowing when to press buttons, there's a high reward for offensive manuvers. Lameing someone out happens in every game tho even in the fastest of games like MVSC3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uGQfE60xOk#t=284 skip to 4:53 if it doesn't work. (Btw I love this haha. watch till the end of the round) Now read the comments and imagine if that's the way you had to play the game with all the chars and drawn out time outs were the most viable means of winning every time. Takes skill but lol no one would be playing that mess for long.

Great post yo.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Yes I do, they make mistakes like having an "All Brawl" tournament take place, its an items/no banned stages rule set in case you don't know.

Oh I heard about that trainwreck, but they didn't with Melee, that's back when the game was starting, and as a tournament it was still ran completely fine to my memory.

Ruleset wise though, that wasn't really a fault of having both games.

 

[keninblack]

Smash 4 easily has EVO2015 in the bag.

Every EVO after that is up to the community.

 

[SmashChu]

If that is what you're so worried about, rest easy. Nintendo's not going to walk away just because the Melee scene has a steady following. Too much ridding on this game now from selling figurines to selling systems. They're going to ride this wave for as long as it's gaining them additional mindshare and exposure.

I think your missing my point a bit. Nintendo will support the community if the community supports Smash 4. But so far the community has kind of done this exclusivity thing. It can't really handle multiple game and will always try to go back to Melee if it can. If the community could play both and actually have decent turn out for both, than there wont be a problem.

So, EVO has like 900 people or so this year for Smash. If Smash 4 at EVO could get these numbers, then no problem. But trying to force Melee in will just encourage the naysayers to only play Melee, which will split the tournament attendance.

The point I'm making is the community should adopt the new game as their main game. There will be kicking and screaming. There always is. No one is ever always happy. Some people still don't like Street Fighter 4. But that doesn't mean they don't support it. It doesn't mean they try to shove in another game because they don't want SF4. Will the Melee zealots be upset. Yes, but who cares. That's not the point. Again. Nintendo will support the community as long as the community supports Smash 4. Trying to force Melee in will on;y detract from this goal.

 

[pizzapie7]

Yeah right. If there's enough demand, it'll happen. It's not like Smash is hated by the FGC like it used to be. In fact, if Smash 4 really that different from previous games, it's be good to have both.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be glad if both could make it. But at most we're probably going to have one as a main game and the other and Project M jockeying for stream time as side tournaments.

I think your missing my point a bit. Nintendo will support the community if the community supports Smash 4. But so far the community has kind of done this exclusivity thing. It can't really handle multiple game and will always try to go back to Melee if it can. If the community could play both and actually have decent turn out for both, than there wont be a problem.

So, EVO has like 900 people or so this year for Smash. If Smash 4 at EVO could get these numbers, then no problem. But trying to force Melee in will just encourage the naysayers to only play Melee, which will split the tournament attendance.

The point I'm making is the community should adopt the new game as their main game. There will be kicking and screaming. There always is. No one is ever always happy. Some people still don't like Street Fighter 4. But that doesn't mean they don't support it. It doesn't mean they try to shove in another game because they don't want SF4. Will the Melee zealots be upset. Yes, but who cares. That's not the point. Again. Nintendo will support the community as long as the community supports Smash 4. Trying to force Melee in will on;y detract from this goal.

The community should not adopt the new game simply because Nintendo finally decided to give a ****. People should be free to play whatever title they choose to play. Let the players decide which game is better. If the game is actually good more people will flock to it naturally because it's newer. Stop forcing it down people's throats. Stop acting like the community actually needs Nintendo's support in the first place when it's survived this long without it. Trying to force Smash 4 will only accomplish the same thing as trying to force Melee. It'll piss people off.

 

[pickle962]

Evo 2015? Definitely! Nintendo's going to push their long awaited support for the competitive community of smash bros as much as they can and while Melee's still growing even after 13 years, people will naturally flock to the new game because its new. Does it mean 4 will kill the Melee star? Remains to be seen, though signs do point to it being the stake that penetrates the long sealed up coffin containing Brawl and kills that game and whatever competitive community it may still have for good. In other words, 4 looks to be everything Brawl should have been from a critical competitive point of view and possibly then some. Just fix/address complaints pro players and players in general had with the various demoes that were presented to the public last month and 4 should be in competitive business when it launches later this year.

 

[Lozjam]

Gentlemen, for those that think Smash 4 won't be a competitive game because of lack of AT's stop in your tracks.
http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...round-cancel-a-new-movement-technique.361665/

 

[greenluigiman2]

The community should not adopt the new game simply because Nintendo finally decided to give a ****. People should be free to play whatever title they choose to play. Let the players decide which game is better. If the game is actually good more people will flock to it naturally because it's newer. Stop forcing it down people's throats. Stop acting like the community actually needs Nintendo's support in the first place when it's survived this long without it. Trying to force Smash 4 will only accomplish the same thing as trying to force Melee. It'll piss people off.

The community doesn't "need" Nintendo's support per se, but I don't think anybody's going to argue that it's not a huge deal. Nintendo holding the Invitational and sponsoring EVO isn't just them trying to make up for all of the lack of support they've given the Smash community in the past, it's also not the just trying to cash in on the popularity of competitive fighting games, it's them investing in the future. Melee (and Brawl to an extent) may be alive and kicking as far as we're concerned, but to Nintendo supporting those games doesn't help them in the slightest. Which is why they're gearing up for a huge EVO '15 appearance for Smash 4. I think a lot of people are starting to see the writing on the wall. Once Smash 4 comes out, Nintendo is going to support the community that forms from that game twice as much as they're supporting the current communities, and in turn a lot of people will feel an incentive to take part in it. Mutual support. Melee and Brawl players are either going to have to once again fend for themselves while Nintendo supports the people who accept/move on to Smash 4, or just join the Smash 4 community and truly become one unit. That said, I think it's fair to give Sakurai some credit, the idea of Nintendo forcing a new Smash Bros. game down people's throat is like forcing cake down someone's throat, if people are going to want it anyway, there's no reason to force it. Competitive players didn't want Brawl you say? Wrong, competitive Brawl is an acquired taste, like carrot cake. Melee is chocolate cake, Brawl is carrot cake and Smash 4 will be a nice slice of red velvet cake. No one will be able to resist.

 

[JV5Chris]

I think your missing my point a bit. Nintendo will support the community if the community supports Smash 4. But so far the community has kind of done this exclusivity thing. It can't really handle multiple game and will always try to go back to Melee if it can. If the community could play both and actually have decent turn out for both, than there wont be a problem.

Where are you getting your information? Brawl and Melee have coexisted in the tournament scene for years. The community can handle itself just fine. Have a look at the Apex over the past 3 years:

2012:
Brawl - 400
Melee - 318

2013:
Brawl - 336
Melee - 338

2014:
Brawl - 370
Melee - 629

You don't think both games are getting a decent turnout?

 

[SphericalCrusher]

I honestly hope Smash 4 is the main Smash at EVO 2015.

 

[Canuckduck]

I hope it does. No offense to Melee competitors, but I'd hate to see the most recent Smash get snubbed out by a decade old game.

I understand how Brawl was unfit for the scene, but if Smash 4 has a promising chance, I don't see why it shouldn't have a place. Nintendo DID sponsor this recent EVO, after all.

If Smash Bros is still a series in the year 2030, I bet the competitive players will still pick Melee over its successors.

 

[kazrisk]

If Smash Bros is still a series in the year 2030, I bet the competitive players will still pick Melee over its successors.

A lot of competitive players are already picking Smash 4 and planning on transitioning to that. Not that they'll ignore Melee, that will always be around, as will Brawl and Project M and 64, but the new Smashes will definitely get attention and keep it. Brawl had some legal things with it that prevent it from getting streamed.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

There's no way Nintendo lets Melee take a spot in evo over Smash 4 next year. Considering their struggles with the Wii U, they'll want as many eyes on this thing as possible, and evo is a great stage for that. Having said that, after this year, it's up in the air. It's too early to call it, but if the game plays similar to its demo build on release, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Melee back on the center stage before long.

I don't think this is a bad thing at all. If anything, it will provide incentive for the smash development team to accept feedback from fans. They were in a very comfortable position with the Wii, having so many consoles out in the wild when Brawl was released. That game was going to sell like gangbusters regardless as it didn't require a 400$ investment for consumers to pick it up. When Nintendo sees the largest fighting game tournament in the world dropping support for Smash 4, they're going to start asking questions. Those are sales, and visibility, that they now desperately need. That's a huge opportunity to gain support for their new console and flagship game tossed out the window because the lead developer needlessly shuns its most passionate fanbase. We've already seen evidence of some tension between Sakurai and Nintendo on this issue, as he was apparently opposed to the Smash 4 invitational. Essentially, Nintendo is taking a more active role in the competitive scene with or without Sakurai. , with added pressure from Nintendo, perhaps we could see improvements made through patches.

Before anyone jumps down my throat with a "melee 2.0" strawman, know that I would have been thrilled if Smash 4 had so little as a proper movement system in place. One that allows dash dancing, air momentum, and options out of dash (though the pivot cancel looks interesting). I was willing to accept a loss of l-cancelling, provided move lag was reduced (it isn't). Again, the game hasn't been released so maybe I'll be surprised. That would require some substantial, and perhaps unrealistic, changes in design in a short development window.

 

[Bladeviper]

There's no way Nintendo lets Melee take a spot in evo over Smash 4 next year. Considering their struggles with the Wii U, they'll want as many eyes on this thing as possible, and evo is a great stage for that. Having said that, after this year, it's up in the air. It's too early to call it, but if the game plays similar to its demo build on release, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Melee back on the center stage before long.

I don't think this is a bad thing at all. If anything, it will provide incentive for the smash development team to accept feedback from fans. They were in a very comfortable position with the Wii, having so many consoles out in the wild when Brawl was released. That game was going to sell like gangbusters regardless as it didn't require a 400$ investment for consumers to pick it up. When Nintendo sees the largest fighting game tournament in the world dropping support for Smash 4, they're going to start asking questions. Those are sales, and visibility, that they now desperately need. That's a huge opportunity to gain support for their new console and flagship game tossed out the window because the lead developer needlessly shuns its most passionate fanbase. We've already seen evidence of some tension between Sakurai and Nintendo on this issue, as he was apparently opposed to the Smash 4 invitational. Essentially, Nintendo is taking a more active role in the competitive scene with or without Sakurai. , with added pressure from Nintendo, perhaps we could see improvements made through patches.

Before anyone jumps down my throat with a "melee 2.0" strawman, know that I would have been thrilled if Smash 4 had so little as a proper movement system in place. One that allows dash dancing, air momentum, and options out of dash (though the pivot cancel looks interesting). I was willing to accept a loss of l-cancelling, provided move lag was reduced (it isn't). Again, the game hasn't been released so maybe I'll be surprised. That would require some substantial, and perhaps unrealistic, changes in design in a short development window.

maybe, maybe not. it seems like a new set of players are looking to get into the scene are just waiting for smash 4 to come out and if those people stick with it who knows whats gonna happen later on

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

What I think is potentially most worrying, is that if smash 4 sucks as a fighting game and is deemed unfit by the community for competition, nintendo will say "either smash 4 or bust" for evo and not allow melee to be played

 

[NekuShikazu]

What I think is potentially most worrying, is that if smash 4 sucks as a fighting game and is deemed unfit by the community for competition, nintendo will say "either smash 4 or bust" for evo and not allow melee to be played

Gotta agree with you, they managed to gain more control over the community by sponsoring EVO. But I think they only did it in the first place to do some advertising.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Yes I do, they make mistakes like having an "All Brawl" tournament take place, its an items/no banned stages rule set in case you don't know.

Now, let's make sure this isn't misconstrued. Yes there were items but not ALL items. At the time many places were trying to find possible items list to try them out in Brawl as the reason they were banned in Melee was gone (you could turn off exploding capsules). So for the time, it wasn't totally normal, but wasn't too crazy an idea either.

Next, not EVERY stage was legal either. The stagelist was very open for the time, but when they hosted that tournament is was early on in Brawl and a lot of those stages were legal everywhere. EVO was just following suit.

So EVO is perfectly capable of running a good smash event. Learn your history a bit better. Spreading misinformation is bad.

 

[Metallaeus]

What I think is potentially most worrying, is that if smash 4 sucks as a fighting game and is deemed unfit by the community for competition, nintendo will say "either smash 4 or bust" for evo and not allow melee to be played

Well, we'll just have to have faith then, won't we... *srs face
Nah, I'm sure Smash 4 wouldn't be deemed unworthy in less than a year. Maybe after a year, we can judge the lifespan of the game.

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

Well, we'll just have to have faith then, won't we... *srs face
Nah, I'm sure Smash 4 wouldn't be deemed unworthy in less than a year. Maybe after a year, we can judge the lifespan of the game.

How long did it take to return to melee after brawl came out?

 

[DavingTheWorld]

I wouldn't be surprised if Super Smash Bros. Wii U gets shunned at next year's Evo, but seeing as how all the fans were out of their minds at the E3 Invitational, who knows. I would like to see it there for at least the first year to add a least 1-2 years of competitive longevity to the game.

 

[kazrisk]

I wouldn't be surprised if Super Smash Bros. Wii U gets shunned at next year's Evo, but seeing as how all the fans were out of their minds at the E3 Invitational, who knows. I would like to see it there for at least the first year to add a least 1-2 years of competitive longevity to the game.

I feel like you didn't read the thread, or you would be surprised if Smash U gets shunned. Would be shocking.

 

[Neoleo21]

Honestly, I really believe that Smash 4 will be a solid competitive game if they just remove the landing lag and add dash dancing, the newly discovered Pivot cancel is really interesting and custom moves will keep the game fresh for a long time with a dynamic meta similar to mobas. It'll take months to discover other ATs, before we pass judgement on the final state of the game in regards to ATs. Personally, if brawl did not have tripping and hitstun cancelling, it would be an amazing competitive game, because I found reads in brawl more exciting than melee(which to me, came down to poking the other guy's guard until they cracked and I murder them with fox waveshines and/or chase them), because I feel that the combo game in brawl would be ridiculous given these conditions. Smash 4 just needs to cut its landing lag by about fifty percent or add l-cancelling and increase the initial dash animation length, simple stuff really, it also appears chasing off ledges may be a bit easier. Also for lols, Sakurai should increase the hitstun modifier to 1.5X because doesn't this game remind anyone of Smash 64 a lot? This game WILL be at EVO 2015, its going to need prep time though, I don't think the time even to evo is enough to discover what the game can offer, because it took like 2 years to discover the DR Yoshi in brawl.

Also, Brawl had the most difficult and awkward input for an AT in the entire series, Sheik DACUS anyone?

 

[Skunks]

I think it should be at at least one EVO, and if it ends up working out it should stay for future events. Smash 4 should at least be given a shot.

 

[Bladeviper]

Honestly, I really believe that Smash 4 will be a solid competitive game if they just remove the landing lag and add dash dancing, the newly discovered Pivot cancel is really interesting and custom moves will keep the game fresh for a long time with a dynamic meta similar to mobas. It'll take months to discover other ATs, before we pass judgement on the final state of the game in regards to ATs. Personally, if brawl did not have tripping and hitstun cancelling, it would be an amazing competitive game, because I found reads in brawl more exciting than melee(which to me, came down to poking the other guy's guard until they cracked and I murder them with fox waveshines and/or chase them), because I feel that the combo game in brawl would be ridiculous given these conditions. Smash 4 just needs to cut its landing lag by about fifty percent or add l-cancelling and increase the initial dash animation length, simple stuff really, it also appears chasing off ledges may be a bit easier. Also for lols, Sakurai should increase the hitstun modifier to 1.5X because doesn't this game remind anyone of Smash 64 a lot? This game WILL be at EVO 2015, its going to need prep time though, I don't think the time even to evo is enough to discover what the game can offer, because it took like 2 years to discover the DR Yoshi in brawl.

Also, Brawl had the most difficult and awkward input for an AT in the entire series, Sheik DACUS anyone?

dash dancing is in the game btw, ive seen so many people says its not but its there

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Now, let's make sure this isn't misconstrued. Yes there were items but not ALL items. At the time many places were trying to find possible items list to try them out in Brawl as the reason they were banned in Melee was gone (you could turn off exploding capsules). So for the time, it wasn't totally normal, but wasn't too crazy an idea either.

Next, not EVERY stage was legal either. The stagelist was very open for the time, but when they hosted that tournament is was early on in Brawl and a lot of those stages were legal everywhere. EVO was just following suit.

So EVO is perfectly capable of running a good smash event. Learn your history a bit better. Spreading misinformation is bad.

You're just trying to make it seem like what they did was acceptable lmao. One google search and you can tell that the only one who was happy with this ruleset was come FGC guy who was in charge and promising that he would be a pro at brawl in a few months. Seriously....

 

[Deleted member 245254]

dash dancing is in the game btw, ive seen so many people says its not but its there

Yes, this complaint is majorly misconstrued.

The real complaint by players is that dash dancing is not as it was in Melee, where in it allows you to travel at least a meter or so before jerking the stick back and forth to make it a decent "fake-out" tool. They propose that simply dash dancing while standing relatively in place is useless in contrast, so in there eyes dash dancing has been "removed" if it's effectively useless.

Their mistake is in assuming it will be useless as it is. Even in it's current state it is capable of being an effective fake-out tool.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Kinda wish I saw vids of people trying dash dancing but no luck.

 

[Bladeviper]

Kinda wish I saw vids of people trying dash dancing but no luck.

i know i saw it, ill look around again

 

[Metallaeus]

VGBC has dash dancing in their 3DS character moveset videos, or its at least in one or some of them. It didn't seem practical at all though and seemed more difficult to execute.

 

[Bladeviper]

VGBC has dash dancing in their 3DS character moveset videos, or its at least in one or some of them. It didn't seem practical at all though and seemed more difficult to execute.

it could just be due to the 3ds as well though, the nub feels weird when you move it back and forward like that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i3VqY6-0jk&index=2&list=PLcMdMmtHkPpSYucnvu7PB5m-73ci5JzaC

here is some video of it, it seems like its harder just because of the 3ds nub but we will need to test it once the game comes out

 

[kazrisk]

Yeah when I initially saw that and noticed the difficulty in dash dancing I didn't think for a moment it was because of the gameplay engine, but the 3DS itself. When I played at Best Buy the triggers and buttons felt pretty decent, it was the nub that was kinda weird. We'll see.

 

[LiteralGrill]

You're just trying to make it seem like what they did was acceptable lmao. One google search and you can tell that the only one who was happy with this ruleset was come FGC guy who was in charge and promising that he would be a pro at brawl in a few months. Seriously....

I never said I was happy with the rules either way, I said that there was a lot of misinformation there which there was. It may not have been what we all exactly wanted, but it wasn't incredibly out there either. There were more people playing Smash then here on Smashboards as well, maybe items were included for those kinds of reasons?. SRK was a BIG forum talking about items a lot right when the game came out, what a surprise that EVO may have have considered them.

ESPECIALLY the stagelist being big is something people shouldn't have been surprised at. It was the very beginning of the game, obviously the stagelist wouldn't be perfect. Remember Melee's stagelists over the years? It took a LONG time to get to where it is.