Smash 4 Analysis from a guy who loves camping

[Light-Kratos]

Thread of the week! Thanks a lot to OS and Kel for sharing this. Kel's post is also reassuring about combos. I just hope early combos will be possible for more than a small part of the cast.

I'd love to know more about SDI, if Keitaro was really able to do it and in what circumstances.
Also, anything to say on Samus, while we're on the "camping" topic? I heard her missles were awful.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

This is all very interesting stuff - thanks for the great analysis!

You mentioned it briefly in your camping section but could you elaborate a bit more on aerials and landing lag? I've heard from a couple of sources that you suffer pretty heavy landing lag when performing aerials. Is it a lot harder to autocancel in Smash 4? Are we talking something like Brawl Ganondorf's Fair?

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

Sounds like Mega Man will have some difficulties. His projectiles are being described as being lackluster despite that most of his moveset is made up of projectiles. He appears to be looking quite nerfed compared to the trailers and gameplay demonstrations.

I'll most likely play him either way though.

 

[Overswarm]

I have a quick question, when you would hit Simone with a smash attack did they grunt like in melee I've always likes that feature

No idea, but there's enough videos on youtube to where you might be able to hear it.

Really interesting thread. I specifically like your analysis of the new ledge mechanics. When I first found out that traditional ledgehogging was gone, I felt very deflated. But upon seeing how the new mechanics actually worked, specifically that you can kick someone off the ledge the very second they grab it, I realized that there's still going to be plenty of opportunity for shenanigans on the ledge. Glad to see opinions from someone who's actually messed around with it in depth!

I'm also really happy to hear that hitstun at low % is enough to string together some tilt combos. if Shiek has the option of stringing together multiple Ftilts, then that means more complex and situational combos will become available as people learn the game, for positioning opponents, getting optimal damage for %, and setting up for interesting character-specific stuff. Hearing that smash DI is out of the game is really fantastic news! Finally, multi-hit moves won't feel pointless anymore and will act as intended.

Pretty cool to hear that while the game is still defensive, it's a different kind of defensive. Here's hoping it will be more engaging at high level play.

Since you tested out Shiek a lot, I'm curious if you were able to find anything cool with her new down B move. Apparently it's a spike. What happens when you land it on a standing opponent? Are they popped up into the air, or are they bounced on the ground in a techable state?

Also, please elaborate more on the feel of shields. Are they as powerful as in Brawl? Did you feel like frontal approaches from the air were specifically punishable/unviable? How fast do they regenerate from damage by comparison? I would love a metagame where shield breaking is actually something that can happen more frequently, as opposed to NEVER (in Brawl's case).

Didn't hit anyone iwth sheik's down+B. Her grenade was awesome for setups though, it pulls you towards sheik!

Shields felt overall weaker and I noticed myself getting hit while in shield (shield poke, presumably) more often than in Brawl. It's possible I was just goofing up or needing to move my shield, but I dunno.

So the dashes I saw at the invitational looked too slow for dash-dancing to be useful... But still; did you test it out?

There was no dash dancing whatsoever.

 

[ChillySundance]

I have some more questions about the new 'trumping' mechanic for edge play.

1) When a character gets popped off a ledge by another person, do they get their air jump back?

2) Who regains control first? The person taking the ledge, or the person getting thrown off the ledge? Could it be possible to quickly let go of the ledge and attack the trumped opponent before they recover from the animation?

3) if you trump somebody, do they get invincibility when they grab the ledge again? Can you use it to force them to re-grab the ledge with no invincibility?

 

[Overswarm]

I have some more questions about the new 'trumping' mechanic for edge play.

1) When a character gets popped off a ledge by another person, do they get their air jump back?

2) Who regains control first? The person taking the ledge, or the person getting thrown off the ledge? Could it be possible to quickly let go of the ledge and attack the trumped opponent before they recover from the animation?

3) if you trump somebody, do they get invincibility when they grab the ledge again? Can you use it to force them to re-grab the ledge with no invincibility?

1) It's just like hopping off the ledge yourself as far as I know

2) I believe regardless of control this is possible; it's not a good position to be in.

3) I'm unsure of invincibility mechanics, but its based off of % and time in the air to my knowledge. So, variable.

Thread of the week! Thanks a lot to OS and Kel for sharing this. Kel's post is also reassuring about combos. I just hope early combos will be possible for more than a small part of the cast.

I'd love to know more about SDI, if Keitaro was really able to do it and in what circumstances.
Also, anything to say on Samus, while we're on the "camping" topic? I heard her missles were awful.

Her missiles were worthless. You could combo with her fair by hitting with the early hits, fast falling, and then hitting with another attack. Her up+b OoS is her best feature, although dairing DK at 80% off stage and him being in hitstun the entire way down was cool.

 

[ChillySundance]

Sorry, you might have misunderstood my question for 3). Your answer refers to when a character grabs the ledge for the first time, but you also said that dropping from the ledge and grabbing it again = no invincibility. I'm wondering if a character who's trumped gets invincibility if they grab the ledge again after being trumped?



Looking at this gif, it doesn't seem like they do, but it's also hard to check for invincibility flashes because of that white background.

Ok I guess looking at this, we can definitely see that Mario gets his 2nd jump back.

 

[Dax]

That is in contrast with a "string" of moves, which is a series of moves during which the opponent has the ability to react (and potentially stop your string), but usually the nature of good "strings" mean your opponent will LIKELY choose an option that will result in getting hit again. Note that Brawl "combos" are really mostly "strings" with few exceptions (Diddy's Banana combos being ones I'm particularly familiar with).

Yes. Difference being that

1) in Brawl there is Smash DI and currently there isn't in Smash 4
2) The "combos" that I've seen, like PP's u tilt u tilt did not look escapable.

You probably shouldn't follow up "not to be that guy" with being that guy.

I'm not, so no luck for you.
Stay calm for a moment and read what I a have to say before playing detective assuming I'm posting "because of Melee"

No, I'm posting because I'm concerned about those "strings" you're talking about.
From what I've seen, some of them are actually combos - short ones thankfully - where you can't escape, but for real.
Now, from one point of view I still prefer to have some combos of any kind than nothing. At the same time, doing 3x forward tilts with Sheik like in Brawl where the opponent can't do anything doesn't sound too exciting for me.
I'm referring to the fact that Smash DI seems to be absent at the moment.

As for 0-death combos, I've personally done the reverse drill infinite as Fox vs. Peach across FD.
There is literally nothing a human player can do to prevent it.

*yawn*
you can call me back when you do it on Armada and not your level 1 cpu or your friend. Besides, as I said you can make it harder with DI just like everything else.
Let's get real, please.

Wobbling? Ditto.

Yup. And it's the only thing in the game.

IC chain grab on Falcon? Ditto.

You don't get it, do you? It's not something that doesn't require adaptation to the other player's DI. It's not something where you keep pressing a button. That's what I'm hoping to see in Smash 4 if there is any kind of combo. Not fixed ones =(

This is a smash 4 thread in a smash 4 forum, people can talk about Melee elsewhere. I've played the game longer than most people on smashboards, I don't need a guy to say "well, technically you can SDI out of Fox's u-air unless he hits with the middle of his body" if I'm talking about a Fox combo. I know. I just don't care.

It's funny how you say it and then proceed to post some supposed "Melee examples of 0 to death" but I'll get past this anyway.
Yes, this is a Smash 4 thread, and if you were willing to listen for a moment, you'd understand that the concern was about:

I feel the histun in general is fine. "Strings" are better than "Combos". Combos mean you get a hit and then your opponent can't do anything, you just follow it up. In this game SDI seems to be absent, so combos are easier once you know them.

 

[ChillySundance]

There's nothing really wrong with short/medium length true combos. They reward execution skill and allow stronger punish opportunities for players who can land a clean hit-confirm in an otherwise defensive game. They also bring some variation to the table when it comes to how you can control your opponent's position after landing a clean hit, which is good in a game that's all about asserting stage presence rather than flat-out damaging the enemy. They also bring flair to the game from a spectator's point of view, at least in my opinion.

my idea of an ideal smash involves a spacing/zoning phase and then everybody has varying ways to punish in a meaningful manner once they work through the opponents defenses.

What I don't want to see is cheesy stuff like grab release combos on Ness and Lucas, repetitive chain grabs with no degree of skill involved, or guaranteed 0-death setups that aren't hugely situational.

Something like Fox dash attack into 2x Utilt into bair/uair/reflector/point blank firefox? Yes please! It's a functional combo that ends with your opponent being sent in whatever direction you need them to go with varying degrees of damage based on your finisher of choice. If that sort of thing is possible and accessible by much of the cast, I will be very happy with this game.

On that note, did you get to play around with any of the new jab combo finishers? Did any feel like they had follow-up potential?

 

[Overswarm]

I honestly feel that jabs are going to be uber important in Smash 4 at this point. No only are they guaranteed if get the first hit, but some were great setup moves (DK's jab) and others actually looked like they had KO potential.

 

[ChillySundance]

wow that's great. I've always been a fan of quick, light attacks but in Melee if you tried to do jabs for the most part you'd just get SDI'd and sex kicked in the face.

Now I'll get to spam Lucario's AAA combo even harder.

 

[Overswarm]

I actually worry a bit about their effectiveness.

You can typically categorize a move pretty early on. Is it a finisher, a combo starter, a get out of jail free card, an anti-air, what?

With the jabs I saw, it seemed like they were all a great incredibly fast OoS punish and had little to no risk and relatively little gain in terms of damage. It'd be a little off putting to see roll-> jab become the new best way to kill a high % opponent!

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Is there absolutely no ledge-related invincibility whatsoever the second time round that you grab it? Not even when performing a get up/roll up/jump up?

 

[Tristan_win]

I actually worry a bit about their effectiveness.

You can typically categorize a move pretty early on. Is it a finisher, a combo starter, a get out of jail free card, an anti-air, what?

With the jabs I saw, it seemed like they were all a great incredibly fast OoS punish and had little to no risk and relatively little gain in terms of damage. It'd be a little off putting to see roll-> jab become the new best way to kill a high % opponent!

What's Sheiks jab combo? Does it help set people up for combos/strings or is it a kill move? If it's a kill move how strong are we talking here, the last thing we need is another 130+ kill move.

 

[Overswarm]

Is there absolutely no ledge-related invincibility whatsoever the second time round that you grab it? Not even when performing a get up/roll up/jump up?

I don't know how it's calculated, so the answer might change depending on what you do! All I know is that I was able to d-tilt the ledge and hit people that would attempt to plank. It just didn't work.

What's Sheiks jab combo? Does it help set people up for combos/strings or is it a kill move? If it's a kill move how strong are we talking here, the last thing we need is another 130+ kill move.

It has a finisher, unsure on strength. I only remember generally getting hit by jabs and the finisher knocking me off stage hwen I was on center stage at mid %.

 

[Tristan_win]

I don't know how it's calculated, so the answer might change depending on what you do! All I know is that I was able to d-tilt the ledge and hit people that would attempt to plank. It just didn't work.



It has a finisher, unsure on strength. I only remember generally getting hit by jabs and the finisher knocking me off stage when I was on center stage at mid %.

Sounds useless, hopefully the scaling will be improved. Any chance you remember the angle it launch you in? If you don't then don't worry about responding.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

@ Overswarm Very informative, thanks for the info dude.

 

[Overswarm]

Sounds useless, hopefully the scaling will be improved. Any chance you remember the angle it launch you in? If you don't then don't worry about responding.

Standard up and out for most of them, although DK's jab seemed to send you mostly straight up. Dunno about DI's influence.

 

[Vkrm]

Can you release the edge instantly after you've caught it?

 

[Overswarm]

Can you release the edge instantly after you've caught it?

I can't confirm, but it felt similar to Brawl in terms of any sort of delay. I could be wrong.

 

[Famous]

Mario

Mario is still capable of Super Cape (Brawl AT)
Mario is still capable of Cape Dash (Brawl AT)
Firballs are more laggy. (Have to FH and throw one at the peak height to be able to DJ Fireball)
Mario is unable SH Dair to DJ Uair
FLUDD is the same in terms of properties
Bair is less laggy
Uair is less laggy
Fair has the same properties as Brawl
Utilt can still combo at low percentages
Dthrow to Utilt is unreliable now

 

[Cassio]

Stuff

Honestly, youre missing the point in both posts. DI and SDI during guaranteed punishments are fluff since youre reacting to the opponent and not reading. I understand that they can also allow you to legitimately escape guaranteed punishment and force a read and thats cool, but thats a different thing were talking about then.

 

[ThomasTheTrain]

Will this game be competitively viable?

Yes.

A lot of games are competitively viable (even world of tanks is to a degree..)

But in your opinion (or anyone who responds to this post..) will it be more fun to play competitively than previous incarnations of smash, and do you think it will it be the most exciting smash to watch?

I ask, because brawl was a really competitive game without question, but some found it less interesting than modified versions of brawl, or earlier incarnations of smash. And i wonder if in said person who is responding to this thinks that Sm4sh will replace or at least surpass other versions of smash, or if it's merely going to be another incarnation that will eventually whither.

 

[Overswarm]

A lot of games are competitively viable (even world of tanks is to a degree..)

But in your opinion (or anyone who responds to this post..) will it be more fun to play competitively than previous incarnations of smash, and do you think it will it be the most exciting smash to watch?

I ask, because brawl was a really competitive game without question, but some found it less interesting than modified versions of brawl, or earlier incarnations of smash. And i wonder if in said person who is responding to this thinks that Sm4sh will replace or at least surpass other versions of smash, or if it's merely going to be another incarnation that will eventually whither.

Brawl was bigger than Melee ever was, despite Brawl having an entirely different engine. It was until recently that Melee even showed up on anyone's radar again. The same thing will happen again with Smash 4. It will release, other smash events will wither.

Only exceptions to this are
1) Project M getting some sort of Wii U usage and/or being sanctioned as 'okay' by Nintendo, allowing it to grow
2) Wii U getting a gamecube virtual console, allowing Melee to be run alongside Smash 4 events without the need for additional setups
3) Smash 4 having some sort of block preventing it from being played, thus creating a void

I played Melee in tournament shortly before Brawl's release. The people I played Brawl with and the people I played Melee with were primarily different. Most of the Melee players from that time period don't even play anymore, it's all new blood. Smash 4 will have WAY more new blood and be way more popular. It's just a matter of sales of Wii U systems at this point.

Some might have found Brawl less interesting, but that didn't stop us from having large locals every weekend all across my region and 100+ attendees to a lot of our regionals. Smash 4 will be big.

 

[Life]

A lot of games are competitively viable (even world of tanks is to a degree..)

But in your opinion (or anyone who responds to this post..) will it be more fun to play competitively than previous incarnations of smash, and do you think it will it be the most exciting smash to watch?

I ask, because brawl was a really competitive game without question, but some found it less interesting than modified versions of brawl, or earlier incarnations of smash. And i wonder if in said person who is responding to this thinks that Sm4sh will replace or at least surpass other versions of smash, or if it's merely going to be another incarnation that will eventually whither.

Honestly, only time will tell. It seems to be a clear improvement over Brawl in terms of pacing.

 

[Cosmo!]

Good thread Overswarm and I look forward to fighting you in the finals of a random Indiana tournament for this game

 

[Overswarm]

Good thread Overswarm and I look forward to fighting you in the finals of a random Indiana tournament for this game

Already have a midwest circuit lined up focusing on KY/OH, you're more than welcome to attend. If you're interested in seeing where Indiana's scene is, there's a tournament august 9th ( http://smashboards.com/threads/aug-...ndianapolis-in-august-indianapolis-in.355883/ ). It'll likely be the last midwest tournament prior to smash 4's 3DS release that I attend, at least beyond immediate locals.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Now about having no DI, is this good or bad? It sounds good to me because if I actually connect with Bowsers Down Smash I want it to work as intended.

 

[Overswarm]

There was DI, just no SDI. It was weird, I commented on it elsewhere in thread.

 

[ChillySundance]

considering that a lot of people so far have agreed that aerial approaches in general feel weaker, how do you anticipate this is going to affect aerial specialist characters like Ness and Jigglypuff? (assuming they're in, and assuming they don't get moveset changes) Was there any benefit in an airborn approach from the characters you tested?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Here's a good one, did anyone see if you could combo out of grab releases?

 

[ChillySundance]

I actually worry a bit about their effectiveness.

You can typically categorize a move pretty early on. Is it a finisher, a combo starter, a get out of jail free card, an anti-air, what?

With the jabs I saw, it seemed like they were all a great incredibly fast OoS punish and had little to no risk and relatively little gain in terms of damage. It'd be a little off putting to see roll-> jab become the new best way to kill a high % opponent!

In Brawl, we frequently had to deal with really fast, really safe attacks coming from shields, sometimes even grabs that would end in KO's in Dedede's case. Snake's Ftilt comes to mind, being faster and having a longer hitbox than most grabs or even some characters jabs. I don't think it will be something that experienced players won't be able to adjust to.

Having to turn around after rolling behind someone may also shave a few frames off the jab start up time but that's something that'll need testing.

 

[Kel]

Good thread Overswarm and I look forward to fighting you in the finals of a random Indiana tournament for this game

Woah, Cosmo, you're gonna play Smash 4? I thought you were a Melee kid that hated everything about Brawl.

 

[Cosmo!]

Woah, Cosmo, you're gonna play Smash 4? I thought you were a Melee kid that hated everything about Brawl.

I had a lot of fun with Brawl for the first few months at least, and I wouldn't be surprised if Smash 4 ends up being better than Brawl competitively. I'm definitely interested in this game and wanna give it a try. The stuff with Sheik's tilts sounds really fun.

 

[Overswarm]

I had a lot of fun with Brawl for the first few months at least, and I wouldn't be surprised if Smash 4 ends up being better than Brawl competitively. I'm definitely interested in this game and wanna give it a try. The stuff with Sheik's tilts sounds really fun.

If you didn't play Brawl Sheik, it wasn't as simple as (use tilt a lot). They used tilts a certain # of times to create a certain amount of decay on that tilt in particular, which allowed for different combos and chains. It was weird. o_o

 

[B!ggad]

So this must have been asked a lot already, but I can't find definite statements about it anywhere:

Do you keep your momentum from running when jumping? Or is it the Brawl situation

 

[Overswarm]

I don't even know off the top of my head anymore. o_O

That's one of those things you have to look for, I think. It felt very natural though.

 

[Black Mantis]

Good stuff Overswarm.

 

[Daelor]

This was great to read and makes feel a little better about the viability of Smash 4. I'm still nervous and skeptical, but yet again I haven't got to play it myself yet. Thank you Overswarm.

 

[QWA]

Pretty cool to hear that while the game is still defensive, it's a different kind of defensive.

I don't want to live on this planet anymore. I don't care what the game plays like, I just want an offensive game.