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I think you should give valid reasoning on why Luigi should get his down throw-cyclone kill confirm back over buff the rest of his moveset, then explain why DK & Bowser should lose their combo/kill confirm throws.
luigi doesn't need a buff, even if he did why make him rely on fishing for the grab the whole game like a wild african ass unstead of actually working for the kill.
I agree with this, Let's not make Luigi a second Ness.
im ok with that idea. i dont see why everyone else shouldnt be.
I think it's better to buff too little than to buff too much. If we buff to much we might create a new monster character, while if we buff too little, well, the character is still better of than in vanilla.Zelda
- Jab:
- Startup: Frame 11 -> Frame 8
- Side Tilt (All Angles):
- Damage: 12/10/10 -> 13/11/11
- Side Smash:
- FAF: Frame 50 -> Frame 44
- Up Smash:
- FAF: Frame 64 -> Frame 60
- Forward Air:
- Sweetspot Duration: Frame 9 - 10 -> Frame 9 - 11
- Sourspot: Damge: 4 -> 7
- Autocancel: Frame >50 -> Frame >44
- FAF: Frame 53 -> Frame 47
- Back Air:
- Sweetspot Duration: Frame 6 - 7 -> Frame 6 - 8
- Sourspot Damage: 4 -> 7
- Autocancel: Frame 52 -> 46
- FAF: Frame 53 -> Frame 47
- Down Air:
- Sweetspot Duration: Frame 14 - 15 -> Frame 14 - 16
- Sourspot Duration: Frame 15 - 25 -> Frame 16 - 25
- Sourspot: Damage: 5/4 -> 6
- Sweetspot: KBG: 65 -> 105
- Dash Grab:
- FAF: Frame 47 -> Frame 44
- Pivot Grab:
- FAF: Frame 44 -> Frame 43
- Din's Fire:
- Sourspot Damage, Angle, BKB, and KBG edited to match sweetspot.
- Sweetspot: BKB: 50 -> 60
Those Zelda changes aren't final, as with all of the changes listed. Zelda needs much more than just tiny tweaks to her endlag and autocancel windows.
The updated Palutena changes I have are pretty much finalized (disclaimer: the updated changes are not listed in the OP), with the exception of a few needed tweaks.
Very well then. If you ever want to try out the changes though, you're free to test them out for yourself.
It's kinda already being done for 3DS though.
How about attacks in the air cause blast KOs and attacks on the ground cause star/screen KOs?
Wouldn't that suck for Jigglypuff though?
That wouldn't work because making moves in the air on-stage cause upward Blast KOs would make Jigglypuff worse, meaning it'd still get revenge KO'd or severely punished. Jigglypuff's Rest most likely happens on the ground AND in the air on-stage anyway. Besides, the goal is to get rid of the randomness on those Star KOs/Screen KOs and upward Blast KOs. I'm sure people who liked Star KOs/Screen KOs in the previous games found the randomness on those KOs annoying and even frustrating, whether it's on-stage (ground/air) or off-stage.How about attacks in the air cause blast KOs and attacks on the ground cause star/screen KOs?
Personally I don't find changing the way star/screen KOs is necessary by any means, but that's how I'd go about it.
im with you on that one.
Perhaps I should've been more specific with on-stage moves (ground/air) forcing Star KOs/Screen KOs. But yeah, this should be a sure-fire way to make things go more smoother in matches, whether the time limit is on or not.
I dunno, I never have a problem with the randomness of star/screen KOs (It's only an issue for specific moves on specific characters).
As I said, I spoke to KingJigglypuff about that. He said those occurrences haven't been identified yet, if at all. I think he's currently checking them, but I can't be sure. We'll just have to be patient and hope for the best. I just want everyone to be happy about this type of thing. Hopefully, Nintendo will get the message too.I dunno, I never have a problem with the randomness of star/screen KOs (It's only an issue for specific moves on specific characters).
Even if I did, how exactly would one program this in?
It should also be noted that fighter_param.bin contains some data that's only used in the Find Mii stage, which is 3DS exclusive; the data is literally useless in Smash Wii U.
i dont mind waiting, as long as this gets patched.
I did say that luigi should get his kill confirm back but to a lesser degree and he doesn't need anymore buffs to the rest of his moveset but nerf some of them such as removing the trip on d-tilt, lower knockback on down smash. Plus, Luigi did have more kill confirms than down throw->cyclone.I already said that this will remove him from his "poor man's Mario" syndrome. As for Dk and Bowser, I already explained that too. I said both characters rely too much on their grabs, overshadows the rest of their moveset, and makes them one trick ponies(although Bowser is more guilty than Dk). Just because these characters would be trash without their ridiculous grab combos, doesn't mean its good design.
I hope you know everything you just said about Bowser and DK applies to Luigi as well. I also hope you know that there are more effective ways of making Luigi better than giving him his old down throw.
You must not be familiar with Dr. Mario.
I'm pretty sure Ganon's weaknesses are supposed to be poor mobility and recovery.
Poor mobility and bad recovery are two reasons why he's weaker, but the inability to deal with projectiles well, his frame data, the lack thereof on disjoints all contribute to his lackluster play. Also, the fact that he can't even jump that high and has a bad jump squat makes it hard for him to get an opponent.
God, no. I've had enough of that with Mac. Do you know how annoying that would be? Instead, how about having Wizard's Foot go through projectiles.
How much Super Armor are we talking here?
These are not move that should have more disjoint (Except maybe Fair). They already have pretty decent range.
I agree, but giving him a third jump or 5 seconds of floating is not a good way of improving of his recovery. It'd make it way better than it should be.
0.79 > 0.92 is not slight.
No objections there.
There's a reason characters have the jump squat they have. Decreasing it would be huge (Especially since a lot of characters that have jump squats longer than 5 are heavyweights with powerful and ranged aerials).
I'm not sure how I feel about Sparta Kick being faster. Keep in mind that move is already fast for how strong it is. I'd say up tilt would be a better choice for a speed buff.
Okay, so I'd like to start by saying that maybe he should keep his Brawl aerial speed at 0.846, where he's faster for recovery and yet still too slow for combos in a sense. As well, I'd like to state that he could still get increases in his distance with his recovery moves. However, let me compile what reasonable changes he could have would be. And also, note that any frame data changes are to be adjusted for the entire thing:
I can't see anyone really complaining about the suggested changes. Let's consider the facts here about this:
- Attributes:
- Running Speed Increased: 1.218 => 1.32
- Aerial Speed Increased: 0.79 => 0.846
- Jump Squat Decreased: 7 Frames >> 5 Frames
- Gravity Decreased: 1.0784 >> 1.0688
- Neutral Attacks:
- Jab Attack:
- Start-Up Decreased: Frames 7-8 >> Frames 6-7
- FAF Decreased: 29 Frames >> 26 Frames
- Dash Attack:
- Super Armor Frames added to Frames 5-13
- Forward Tilt:
- Start-Up Decreased: Frames 10-12 >> Frames 9-11
- FAF Decreased: 40 Frames >> 36 Frames
- Down Tilt:
- Start-Up Decreased: Frames 10-12 >> Frames 8-10
- FAF Decreased: 36 Frames >> 32 Frames
- Damage Decreased: 13% => 12%
- Down Smash:
- First Hit Angles Changed: 160/140/154/50 >> 160/160/140/140
- Second Hit Start-Up Decreased: Frames 35-38 >> 27-30
- Second Hit Knockback Growth Increased: 94 KBG >> 100 KBG
- Grabs:
- Standard Grab:
- FAF Decreased: 36 Frames >> 32 Frames
- Range Increased by 1.5 Units
- Dash Grab:
- Range Increased by 2 Units
- Pivot Grab:
- Range Increased by 2 Units
- Throws:
- Down Throw:
- Weight Dependency: No
- Angle Shifted: 65 >> 70
- Knockback Growth Decreased: 50 KBG >> 40 KBG
- Aerials:
- Forward Aerial:
- Start-Up Decreased: Frames 14-19 >> Frames 12-17
- FAF Adjusted Accordingly
- Auto-Cancel Frames Decreased: 55> >> 25>
- Range Increased by 3 Units Horizontally
- Specials:
- Warlock Punch Changes I've Suggested in the Past Stay
- Flame Choke:
- Grounded Distance Increased by 25%
- Aerial Distance Increased by 20%
- Dark Dive:
- Intangibility Added between Frames 5-18
- Vertical Distance Increased by 20%
- Horizontal Distance Increased by 30%
- Wizard's Foot:
- Grounded:
- Damage Increased: 14/14/12% >> 18/18/14%
- Aerial:
- Late Hitbox Damage Increased: 14% >> 16%
- Landing Lag Decreasd by 9 Frames
>His weaknesses are still there, but are alleviated lightly so they aren't huge weaknesses anymore.
>Mobility is still in the bottom of the barrel, but with these increases, he has a better time getting to opponents and recovering.
>Some of his frame data has been slightly altered to be faster.
>His Wizard's Foot (Grounded) and F-Air both help him beat out projectiles better, so he has things that'll deal with projectiles, but he's still very bad at it.
>Recovery move distance increases would do so well for him, but not break it. Dark Dive's intangibility will allow him to survive better than before, thus making opponents rethink how to attack him.
>His grabs are better. And his Down Throw is now a reliable combo move.
However, I will tell you that his weaknesses are still present, but not as much as before. These suggestions are tame and wouldn't make him broken in the slightest. One thing's for sure, he wouldn't be bottom tier with these.
Is not something you should be allowed to say after suggesting that we give Ganon's Dash Attack super armor frames.
Have you seen my Ganon changes?
We shouldn't decide whether to change a character or not based on an arbitrary number determining their viability.
()
I'm worried that this project is going to end up overbuffing some characters, which would create new problems. Buffing a top 10 character does not sound like a good idea to me. It's also worth noticing that sometimes characters aren't as bad as people thing. Mega Man and Palutena were long underrated, yet turns out Mega Man is likely high tier and Palutena likely low-mid tier, yet I've seen people previously rate Mega Man as mid tier and Palutena as one of the worst 3 in the game. A lot of people in this thread seem to want Marth buffs, despite Marth having some great tournament results and potentially being a top 15 character (and at least top 20). We should operate under a "better safe than sorry" policy. Buffing a character too little is still a buff, but buffing them too much might make them too strong, especially if a sleeper character is buffed (such as Mega Man).
Here are my suggestions on what to do with various characters.
Don't change:
Maybe some small buffs:
Moderate buffs:
Bit larger buffs:
So, there are 22 characters that we should focus on (imo) for the time being. Out of those, 8 have already been buffed (although they might get further changes). This leaves 14 characters:
Moderate buffs:
Bit larger buffs:
One could certainly make the argument that some in the "Moderate buffs" should be in "Maybe some small buffs" list. It's also possible that I'm underestimating Bowser Jr and that he should be in "Moderate buffs".
