Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[SalemtheEngineer]

Okay so I decided to rethink Link. I tried not to go overboard this time like I did last time. Keyword being "tried".

No damage buffs, just frame data and other things. Mainly his grounded moves resemble his frame data from Melee which is what I think he needed, though it's not a 1:1 recreation to his Melee incarnation.

Spoiler: Statistics

• Run Speed: 1.3944 -> 1.43
• Walk Speed: 1.188 -> 1.223
• Jumpsquat: 7 Frames -> 5 Frames

Spoiler: Ground Moves

• Jab 1:
  • Hitbox Active: Frame 7-8 -> Frame 6-8
  • FAF: Frame 28 -> Frame 21

• Dash Attack:
  • Hitbox Active: Frame 20-23 -> Frame 17-20
  • FAF: Frame 57 -> Frame 54

• Forward Tilt:
  • Hitbox Active: Frame 15-19 -> Frame 13-17
  • FAF: Frame 38 -> Frame 35

• Up Tilt:
  • FAF: Frame 36 -> Frame 34

• Forward Smash:
  • Hit 1:
    • Hitbox Active: Frame 15-16 -> Frame 15-18
    • FAF: Frame 52 -> Frame 50
  • Hit 2:
    • Hitbox Active: Frame 12-13 -> Frame 12-15
    • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 51

• Up Smash:
  • FAF: Frame 78 -> Frame 64

Spoiler: Aerial Moves

• Neutral Air:
  • Hitbox Active: Frame 7-31 -> Frame 4-31

• Back Air:
  • FAF: Frame 31 -> Frame 30

Spoiler: Special Moves

• Hero's Bow (No Charge):
  • FAF: Frame 47 -> Frame 40

• Gale Boomerang (Early):
  • Hitbox Active: Frame 27-35 -> Frame 24-35

• Spin Attack:
  • Semi-spike from Melee brought back.

• Bomb:
  • FAF: Frame 40 -> Frame 39

 

[Derpnaster]

Okay so I decided to rethink Link. I tried not to go overboard this time like I did last time. Keyword being "tried".

No damage buffs, just frame data and other things. Mainly his grounded moves resemble his frame data from Melee which is what I think he needed, though it's not a 1:1 recreation to his Melee incarnation.

Spoiler: Statistics

• Run Speed: 1.3944 -> 1.43
• Walk Speed: 1.188 -> 1.223
• Jumpsquat: 7 Frames -> 5 Frames

Spoiler: Ground Moves

• Jab 1:
  • Hitbox Active: Frame 7-8 -> Frame 6-8
  • FAF: Frame 28 -> Frame 21

• Dash Attack:
  • Hitbox Active: Frame 20-23 -> Frame 17-20
  • FAF: Frame 57 -> Frame 54

• Forward Tilt:
  • Hitbox Active: Frame 15-19 -> Frame 13-17
  • FAF: Frame 38 -> Frame 35

• Up Tilt:
  • FAF: Frame 36 -> Frame 34

• Forward Smash:
  • Hit 1:
    • Hitbox Active: Frame 15-16 -> Frame 15-18
    • FAF: Frame 52 -> Frame 50
  • Hit 2:
    • Hitbox Active: Frame 12-13 -> Frame 12-15
    • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 51

• Up Smash:
  • FAF: Frame 78 -> Frame 64

Spoiler: Aerial Moves

• Neutral Air:
  • Hitbox Active: Frame 7-31 -> Frame 4-31

• Back Air:
  • FAF: Frame 31 -> Frame 30

Spoiler: Special Moves

• Hero's Bow (No Charge):
  • FAF: Frame 47 -> Frame 40

• Gale Boomerang (Early):
  • Hitbox Active: Frame 27-35 -> Frame 24-35

• Spin Attack:
  • Semi-spike from Melee brought back.

• Bomb:
  • FAF: Frame 40 -> Frame 39

While I like most of these as they don't make Link move like freaking cloud, I'm not certain I can see giving Link his bumper attack as a good thing especially if you consider he already has a VERY powerful semi spike angle with his down smash.
Maybe if we just changed the angle on the first hit of his existing spin attack to match up to say, Dark Pit's electroshok arm, which is somewhat lower than a sakurai angle it would be a happy medium between instant gimp and die, and his current high angle spin attack

 

[MarioMeteor]

If I can ask, what are the changes for Cloud?

 

[SalemtheEngineer]

While I like most of these as they don't make Link move like freaking cloud, I'm not certain I can see giving Link his bumper attack as a good thing especially if you consider he already has a VERY powerful semi spike angle with his down smash.
Maybe if we just changed the angle on the first hit of his existing spin attack to match up to say, Dark Pit's electroshok arm, which is somewhat lower than a sakurai angle it would be a happy medium between instant gimp and die, and his current high angle spin attack

Hm. I definitely agree with that. How would you type it out? I like your suggestion so I wanna update my changes.

 

[Derpnaster]

Not really certain because I'm bad at wording.
But it would be like Spin Attack
Hitbox x-x Angle changed to (Insert PDpit Angle here)
Hitbox x-x BKB lowered to V where V is a INT greater than 0
Hitbox x-x KBG changed to Z where Z is an INT greater 0

Pardon my bad pseudocode.

Hitbox x-x refers to the number of hitboxes we want to have this change, I would agree on having hitboxes at value 0 through value 4, so the first five hitboxes have the power and angle.
Or something like that

Honestly it would be more like
0-2 would have the change

 

[SalemtheEngineer]

Not really certain because I'm bad at wording.
But it would be like Spin Attack
Hitbox x-x Angle changed to (Insert PDpit Angle here)
Hitbox x-x BKB lowered to V where V is a INT greater than 0
Hitbox x-x KBG changed to Z where Z is an INT greater 0

Pardon my bad pseudocode.

Hitbox x-x refers to the number of hitboxes we want to have this change, I would agree on having hitboxes at value 0 through value 4, so the first five hitboxes have the power and angle.
Or something like that

Honestly it would be more like
0-2 would have the change

I'm pretty bad at wording as well. I just left the semi-spike highlighted in red. As an unlikely change.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think it's worth mentioning that we already have changes for every character (excluding Fox, if you don't count non-balance related changes), tho, most of the changes for the Top 10 or so characters are pretty minor (hitbox fixes on Meta Knight, small nerfs to Cloud, etc). We have a whole document listing all the changes (though, it's pretty far from complete).

I'd also argue with your suggestions list (ex. Where Yoshi, Falcon, and Lucina are), but that's a post for another time.

Yoshi is arguably top 20 or top 25, as is Captain Falcon. Lucina is probably mid tier, or high low-mid tier. I suppose I'm cool with you guys changing everyone as long as we can manually inject the changes we want. If we can't, then this project is not for me. I'm interested to see which changes you'll release next.

Did you guys take Kamemushi's Mega Man into account when you made the Mega Man changes? Seems a lot of people think Mega Man is top 15 now (some even said top 10).

 

[Furret24]

Did you guys take Kamemushi's Mega Man into account when you made the Mega Man changes? Seems a lot of people think Mega Man is top 15 now (some even said top 10).

No. Mega Man's changes haven't been updated in months. They're in serious need of being attended to.

 

[Didier337]

I think Ganon having a poor recovery range is fine but I do agree on giving Dark Drive super armor. I believe Grounded Wizard's foot would be a better move to use to close distance against projectile users. The move covers a good distance but loses heavily to shield and can be punished by a quick smash attack if not ledged-canceled properly. The only question I ask is how? Maybe with Super armor, intangibilty, Damage Based Armor, just some form to prevent Wizard's foot from rebounding from small projectiles such as fireballs and uncharge lasers.

 

[Yoshister]

I suppose I'm cool with you guys changing everyone as long as we can manually inject the changes we want. If we can't, then this project is not for me. I'm interested to see which changes you'll release next.

We can easily put in any hitbox or attribute changes.

 

[Eugene Wang]

My suggestd Bowser Jr. buffs:

• Add some shield damage to Fsmash to make it a much more effective shield pressurer. Also, it's bizarre to see Bowser pull out his giant drills and only manage a small chip in the opponent's shield.
• Add some shield damage to Dair, for the same reason.
• Slightly reduce the startup of all forms of the grab.
• Add a weak early hitbox to Clown Kart Dash to allow it to cut through low-damage projectiles. Currently, Mechakoopa is the cornerstone of Bowser Jr's neutral, making him a rather linear character. This buff is intended to give him another option in neutral.
• Make Dash attack connect properly at high percents. Just a quality of life thing.
  
• Reduce the threshold of car restoration on Abandon Ship so any attack that causes tumble will restore the clown car.

 

[Tocaraca2]

Rage isn't jank. Footstooling is though.

 

[Clell_Tickle]

Am I the only one who actually likes footstooling?

That's not something that should be compensated for.

Limit Break Cross Slash is far better than it really should be.

^^^

The worst part about cross slash, is that its completely safe to throw out, because there's no ending lag on it. You should be punished for missing it, not rewarded. I can't tell you how many times I rolled behind my friend when he used limit cross slash, and was able to use cross slash on me before i even had a chance to punish.

 

[anas abou]

• Jumpsquat: 7 Frames -> 5 Frames

• Jab 1:
  • FAF: Frame 28 -> Frame 21

• Up Smash:
  • FAF: Frame 78 -> Frame 64

• Neutral Air:
  • Hitbox Active: Frame 7-31 -> Frame 4-31

> giving shorter jumpsquat animations is not that important and makes SH harder.
> lol jab 1 FAF same as jab 2.
> the third hit of up-smash ends frame 45 so only 11 frames of end lag for one of the bast anti-airs in the game.
> lol why use literally any other arieal if nair was frame 4 and lasted that long.

Am I the only one who actually likes footstooling?

yah footstool combos are KreyGasm.

 

[epiclolzcat]

So, I've trying really hard to mod my game I got everything I need, but when I try to pass my modded files to the SD card this error message appears, what am I doing wrong?? what else do I need to do??

 

[godogod]

Cloud doesn't need any more buffs.. wtf. Everything else is good so far.

 

[xNaXDy]

Hi guys, is there an EU version to download, or some helpful advice to get this running on an EU console? I'd like to test out what you've got so far.

 

[Eugene Wang]

My vision for Ganondorf is of a fortress that uses burst mobility and sucking hitboxes to make up for his mobility problems in neutral. We already have grapplers (Donkey Kong, Bowser), zoning fortresses (King Dedede), and lightning bruisers (Captain Falcon), so I decided to emphasize these attributes to help him stand out from a cluttered cast.

My opinions on what to give Ganondorf:

• Forward tilt: Give him frontal invincibility frames 20-70 so walling projectiles don't bother him. (Attacks from the back will still hit.) Increase the base knockback of the existing windbox to 50, and add a new windbox in front of the old one that has a BKB of 30 and a KBG of 80.
• Make the invincibility on Dash Attack slightly longer so Ganondorf can ram through walling projectiles with it.
• Remove that random thigh hitbox in Down Smash. No seriously. Why is it there.
• Increase the range of his grab, preferably to almost absurd distances. He's a dark wizard, so it should logically follow that he uses it to extend his grabs.
• Make Back throw a kill throw around 140%.
• Reduce the FAF of down throw so he can follow up on it more easily.
• Make forward aerial autocancel out of short hop. The timer is already there, it just needs to be changed to the right kind of timer.
• Reduce the landing lag of Bair to 14 (or even less, I don't know) so he can pressure closer to the ground.
• Make all forms of Warlock Punch one-hit KOs and instant shield breaks. You just left yourself open to a highly telegraphed attack, so you kind of deserve the huge punish.
• Flame choke: Add more distance to make him better at threatening from midrange. Add some frontal invincibility during its active frames to make it better against projectiles. Make the grounded version untechable. If possible, remove the aerial helplessness.
• Give Dark Dive more distance. I shouldn't be the only one to find it ironic that Ganondorf, a heavyweight, has very poor offstage survivability.
• Wizard's foot: Reduce the grounded form's endlag. Add paralyzing effects to the landing hitbox to make it riskier to punish.

And as for my opinions on Rage and Footstooling: Rage is a good mechanic. 70% of problems with rage would go away if it affected only knockback growth, since its jankiest properties have to do with low-growth moves. And as for footstooling, I'd leave it. I'd make grounded footstools techable to eliminate the infinites, but that's personally me.

 

[Shollyboster]

I've always wanted this for compensation on PAC-Man. I know it's not possible with mods, but I want him to have a ZAIR that comes out quick and grabs opponents items. Far more use in casual play, though. Perhaps it could do one percent and not make the opponent flinch. I'm thinking of something like a high vertical range combined with the horizontal range of rope snake. It wouldn't be able to grab ledge, though.


Also, while we are talking about mods, let's make a custom for Captain Falcon. Replace his second up b with a variant that meteor's another character. It could send Falcon twice as high if hit but render him helpless after 30 frames or so.

 

[MarioMeteor]

• Increase the range of his grab, preferably to almost absurd distances. He's a dark wizard, so it should logically follow that he uses it to extend his grabs.

How absurd are we talking? Bowser pivot grab absurd or Melee Marth absurd?

• Make all forms of Warlock Punch one-hit KOs and instant shield breaks. You just left yourself open to a highly telegraphed attack, so you kind of deserve the huge punish.

That would make Aerial Warlock Punch pretty obsolete.

 

[Swevester]

Glad to see was noticed towards the end, reading through the whole thing I was afraid he was going to be overlooked with all the discussion about not buffing or buffing up . For the most part, what has already been said looks good but I do have a few suggestions of my own:

Back Air return to Brawl damage (8% -> 11%)
Reason: The primary point of this move is to be good at comboing, which it is, but it has little purpose outside of that besides sometimes using the set knockback on the first hit to set up other attacks on the ground, which in itself is pretty risky and situational. If knockback must be compensated (not like I would think it matters since it's pretty weak anyways) then okay.

Back Throw have less knockback and end lag, allowing it to be a good way to combo into Back Air at low %s.
Reason: Link has never truly had a very solid throw up until this game, and to be honest what he does have is a Down Throw at low %s and an Up Throw at very, very high %s (like, a very unreasonable % for a character like Link who's attacks can KO as early as 90% to begin with). I wouldn't suggest it if Link didn't have such a perfect Back Air for not having some throw to combo into it anyway. And if I'm being a little bias...Link deserves to have a little more for catching someone in such a laggy, unreliable grab.

Up Throw return to pre-1.0.6 power (KOs at ~170% -> KOs at ~150%) if anyone can explain why that was nerfed in the first place, I'd love to know.
Reason: As aforementioned, Link doesn't have a giant amount of reasons to grab to begin with. What I ask isn't super broken, in fact it's simply reverted his floaty slayer BACK to being a decent floaty slayer.

Anyways, that's my contribution. I hope you consider these changes.

 

[Didier337]

A universal buff that would be nice is giving everyone a frame 1-3 auto cancel window on their N-air. That would let everyone perform a "A-landing" (as described on Beefy Smash dude's video) more optimally.

Spoiler: Video

 

[Swevester]

^ even though this would most certainly buff every character, I feel as though it would be a much larger buff to characters who could use a good autocancel window on their N-Air *cough**cough* the question is though, would it end up buffing one of the top tiers even further or would it do practically nothing to their playstyle? Since the idea of this is to rebalance as best as possible.

 

[Didier337]

would it end up buffing one of the top tiers even further or would it do practically nothing to their playstyle?

It would practically do nothing to their playstyles since most aerials hitboxes begin at frame 3 or higher and the player would have already landed on the ground cancelling the move.

 

[anas abou]

Back Throw have less knockback and end lag

nah backthrow creates space and lets link play the projectile game/ edgeguard

 

[Swevester]

It would practically do nothing to their playstyles since most aerials hitboxes begin at frame 3 or higher and the player would have already landed on the ground cancelling the move.

The only character I can think of that gets anything they shouldn't is Mario with a frame 2 N-Air: even then it's only 1 frame. But that means if successfully done, Mario's air game got a new tool.

nah backthrow creates space and lets link play the projectile game/ edgeguard

As it stands there is borderline no reason for Link to Back Throw. At all. Why risk going for a grab if all you're going to get out of it is more projectile game, which you were probably doing before you grabbed anyway?

 

[Didier337]

Mario with a frame 2 N-Air

Mario's N-air is frame 3(1/20th of a second), even with microspacing, it would be almost impossible to get the hitbox out and touch the floor on the exact same frame.

Though Little mac does have a frame 2 N-air, that can be fixed to moving it to frame 3.

 

[Swevester]

Mario's N-air is frame 3(1/20th of a second), even with microspacing, it would be almost impossible to get the hitbox out and touch the floor on the exact same frame.

Though Little mac does have a frame 2 N-air, that can be fixed to moving it to frame 3.

Whoops, was thinking of his Jab. Keep in mind I love the thought of characters being able to utilize this new tool if they can because it would add a new level to the game, I was just worried that ONLY the characters already at the top would get it with maybe a few exceptions at the lower end of the tier list (as you pointed out, ). If this autocancel window were 4 frames instead of 3, it would probably be very common among characters and could probably be given it's own name, like Tomahawk or Hoo Hah. At least with the way it stands, Mac can say he has SOME kind of air game tech besides D-Air being able to Jab lock.

 

[SalemtheEngineer]

> giving shorter jumpsquat animations is not that important and makes SH harder.
> lol jab 1 FAF same as jab 2
> lol why use literally any other arieal if nair was frame 4 and lasted that long.

1. Project M had Link's jumpsquat reduced to 5 frames and no one seemed to have an issue with it. Not to mention shorter jumpsquat makes it easier to z-drop bombs early without letting the tether out.
2. Link's first jab FAF is 28 frames. That's ridiculous, I think it should be the same as his second jab, or better yet, earlier. Toon Link's first jab FAF is less than his second, while Link is the opposite. Point is, there's nothing wrong with reducing the FAF on his first jab.
3. His nair is not that powerful. His fair is safe on shield and has great KO power. His down air spikes. So yes there is a reason to use his other aerials. I just think his nair needs to be reverted back to Melee. Keep in mind that in Melee it actually lasted longer.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

That would make Aerial Warlock Punch pretty obsolete.

There's also the fact that Roy's full power Flare Blade is no longer a guaranteed 1-hit KO. Also, it takes longer to launch a full power Flare Blade than it does to launch Warlock Punch, which is why Warlock Punch is less powerful in the damage department.

 

[anas abou]

1. Project M had Link's jumpsquat reduced to 5 frames and no one seemed to have an issue with it. Not to mention shorter jumpsquat makes it easier to z-drop bombs early without letting the tether out.
2. Link's first jab FAF is 28 frames. That's ridiculous, I think it should be the same as his second jab, or better yet, earlier. Toon Link's first jab FAF is less than his second, while Link is the opposite. Point is, there's nothing wrong with reducing the FAF on his first jab.
3. His nair is not that powerful. His fair is safe on shield and has great KO power. His down air spikes. So yes there is a reason to use his other aerials. I just think his nair needs to be reverted back to Melee. Keep in mind that in Melee it actually lasted longer.

1. pM link plays very differently from sm4sh link he relied heavily on SH aerials/projectiles and he needed to get off the ground fast to keep up with the pace of the game.
2. you do realize how much better s jab is in comparison to , better range and the last hit sends much farther, frame data is perfectly fine since it connects properly.
3. f-air is really slow and doesn't auto-cancel on FH, links d-air isn't viable since it comes out slow and only spikes for 2 frames and isn't good for landing, b-air just sucks due to not doing enough damage, while nair is frame 4, lasts a decade, can jab lock, is good out of shield, a good landing option, does good damage and is good for edgeguarding, and can A-land do to auto canceling the first 3 frames, do you now see how nair will basically overshadow his entire aerial arsenal except maybe u-air.

 

[SalemtheEngineer]

1. pM link plays very differently from sm4sh link he relied heavily on SH aerials/projectiles and he needed to get off the ground fast to keep up with the pace of the game.
2. you do realize how much better s jab is in comparison to , better range and the last hit sends much farther, frame data is perfectly fine since it connects properly.
3. f-air is really slow and doesn't auto-cancel on FH, links d-air isn't viable since it comes out slow and only spikes for 2 frames and isn't good for landing, b-air just sucks due to not doing enough damage, while nair is frame 4, lasts a decade, can jab lock, is good out of shield, a good landing option, does good damage and is good for edgeguarding, and can A-land do to auto canceling the first 3 frames, do you now see how nair will basically overshadow his entire aerial arsenal except maybe u-air.

1. Again, reducing jumpsquats would make it easier it z-drop bombs without the tether coming out. When 's bombs land on the ground they don't explode. Meaning that when they're on the ground you can perfom bair next to it which he would then pick it up and then be able to throw it on the airborne opponent which can lead into other things. Unless you have an actual reason as to not reduce his jumpsquats, I'm all ears.

2. Yes, 's jab is stronger than 's. But I still think FAF needs to be reduced his first jab, I think it'll still connect properly, but correct me if I'm wrong. His jab also needs to come out sooner, frame 7 is ridiculous and it's bad enough that his jab combo has a long cool down.

3. Yes his fair is slow. Yes it doesn't auto cancel. But I'm sure you haven't seen the strategy which is fast fall into the first hit of fair, which has decent landing lag and is safe on shield. You can't jump out of shield with a nair that comes out on frame 7 (same frame data of his first jab), I have tried that so many times and tried to get out of combos thinking it would come out earlier, but it doesn't. Yes his dair only spikes on the first 2 frames, but combos into itself decently and auto cancels when it hits the opponent's shield, but that's all I have to say about dair. And what's this about being a good landing option? Am I missing something here? Cause every time I try to land with a nair the opponent is able to perfect shield and punish me pretty badly. But if this is such a big problem I don't mind if the move ends sooner. Frame 4 nair is all that he needs, I'm not asking to increase his air speed which would make his nair super insane.

 

[Swevester]

1. pM link plays very differently from sm4sh link he relied heavily on SH aerials/projectiles and he needed to get off the ground fast to keep up with the pace of the game.
2. you do realize how much better s jab is in comparison to , better range and the last hit sends much farther, frame data is perfectly fine since it connects properly.
3. f-air is really slow and doesn't auto-cancel on FH, links d-air isn't viable since it comes out slow and only spikes for 2 frames and isn't good for landing, b-air just sucks due to not doing enough damage, while nair is frame 4, lasts a decade, can jab lock, is good out of shield, a good landing option, does good damage and is good for edgeguarding, and can A-land do to auto canceling the first 3 frames, do you now see how nair will basically overshadow his entire aerial arsenal except maybe u-air.

Considering how many attacks has that are ON PAR in strength with , not to mention being faster and having more reliable combos from Bomb and Boomerang anyways, I see absolutely no reason to validate the "it wouldn't be fair to the semi-clone that's already considered worlds better" argument. In addition F-Air has 12 frames of landing lag, which when spaced correctly because of the move's shieldstun means it is still very safe on shield. In fact it's even possible to argue that this is one of the reason's Battlefield is an excellent stage for Link: short hop F-Air does great shield pressure on foes standing on platforms and is real hard to punish. D-Air actually can be a decent landing option if you just don't fast fall with it. It has a fairly large autocancel window which can mean he could at least use it to protect himself from aerial threats. Lord knows it has saved me from before. B-Air is a true combo into another B-Air, can short hop autocancel and can be used for regrabbing Bombs because it ends so fast and hits twice. As it stands, N-Air is useful due to being a sex kick because it can get foes off of you (maybe, because it's still only frame 7) and MAYBE if the foe doesn't react fast enough has some combo potential. No, it does not and could not overshadow anything in Link's aerial kit. Especially since Link has a Z-Air, and if you think an improved N-Air would overshadow Z-Air then you're dead wrong.

 

[Didier337]

Link's play style kinda contradicts itself. His projectiles rack up damage decently but don't kill (Unlike & Who's projectiles do kill). Link's aerials and smash attacks have great kill potential but he lack the speed and consistent set ups (Unlike & who have multiple tools to get them kills)


Although I would prefer for Link to stay true to his game and rely more on his tools, I feel like he'll become to similar to Toon Link. Maybe make Link a hybrid of combo heavy using projectiles. Reducing the damage of projectiles, increase KBG slightly, change hitbox angles of tilts, reduce endling lag on a few moves, better mobility.
Lead to something like : D-throw -> Up-tilt -> B-air -> Side-B ->Jump-> Z-air

I'll understand if this seems a bit much and I'm over generalizing a moveset but I hope it'll be something helpful or food for thought.

 

[Derpnaster]

Link can run a very punish heavy style as it is. Generally long strings are a bad thing for Link to try for as he's much stronger at controlling the stage and exploiting holes.

Also, every one of Link's Projectiles can kill. But much like every kill move in the game, it takes time and the right conditions.
Bow can kill with snipes
Gale can stage spike or just gimp
Bombs can kill off the top or kill themselves at really high percents. (I have confirmed that they start killing around 200)
Not to mention that all his projectiles are mostly setup tools or disruption tools

 

[Didier337]

Derpnaster
That's true but if Link were to keep his original play style he will continue to have the same problem as Ganon. Link and Ganon do more damage than their counter parts but it doesn't matter due Toon link and Falcon having a much more better time keeping neutral, rack percent faster, and hit just as hard.

 

[Swevester]

Link does more damage in a basic concept, but a lot of Toon Link's attacks do exactly as much damage and knockback as Link's, despite Link supposedly being the stronger of the two. The best example of this is Forward Smash. I want Link to keep his same style of play, all he needs are a FEW things this time around to actually be a high tier character (which is the aim of this project). If this were Brawl or 64 I would argue that he needs way more, but as it stands in Smash 4 he is PLAYABLE. The ideas that S SalemtheEngineer mentioned are good, I just added my two cents because the things Link could have (a kill throw in Up Throw, a combo throw in Back Throw, etc.) simply aren't there when they should be. I should also argue that Ganondorf not having a kill throw...urks me. Greatly. Also I really wouldn't worry at all about centering Link's style of play too much around Toon Link's. They are still worlds different and tbh it isn't a very solid reason to not give Link some better frame data or power on the aforementioned topics.

 

[Derpnaster]

I honestly see no real flaws with the Concept of Link, his playstyle, or rather his versatility, works. What doesn't work is that Link's greatest weakness is also the most common playstyle in the game. Close Quarters Combat

 

[Shollyboster]

I honestly see no real flaws with the Concept of Link, his playstyle, or rather his versatility, works. What doesn't work is that Link's greatest weakness is also the most common playstyle in the game. Close Quarters Combat

I think Link suffers from weird quirks in his character. Take forward smash. You can shield the second hit sometimes. I think the lag on his moves is much more detrimental to his play style, making him an unintentional "high risk, moderate reward" character. The most damaging quality Link has is his projectile lag, and a lack of combos. It seems as if they had his projectiles simply to pay homage to his original games.

Link, in my opinion, is just a bad character. Except for up smash. Besides its terrible lag, its priority and anti-air qualities overweigh its weaknesses.



On a separate topic and for the purpose to not double-post, let's talk about Lucas. I main Lucas/Ness. Both are phenomenal characters. However, I feel like Lucas definitely needs a buff on his PK Fire. I think it has too much lag. I find it much less safe than Ness's variant. Perhaps we could nerf the power from his forward throw to balance? I don't know.

 

[anas abou]

1. Again, reducing jumpsquats would make it easier it z-drop bombs without the tether coming out. When 's bombs land on the ground they don't explode. Meaning that when they're on the ground you can perfom bair next to it which he would then pick it up and then be able to throw it on the airborne opponent which can lead into other things. Unless you have an actual reason as to not reduce his jumpsquats, I'm all ears.

2. Yes, 's jab is stronger than 's. But I still think FAF needs to be reduced his first jab, His jab also needs to come out sooner, frame 7 is ridiculous and it's bad enough that his jab combo has a long cool down.

3. You can't jump out of shield with a nair that comes out on frame 7

1. it's not the the jump squat buff is bad in itself, but it's unnecessary, and unnecessary = waste of time and effort.
2. a frame 7 jab is not bad in the slightest cosidering the range and the disjoint, mewtwo's jab comes out frame 6 and palutena's at 8 and those moves are considered very optimal and useful.
3. yes you can use a frame 7 n-air out of shield, samus mains do it with a frame 8 nair.

Considering how many attacks has that are ON PAR in strength with , not to mention being faster and having more reliable combos from Bomb and Boomerang anyways, I see absolutely no reason to validate the "it wouldn't be fair to the semi-clone that's already considered worlds better" argument. N-Air wouldn't and couldn't overshadow anything in Link's aerial kit. Especially since Link has a Z-Air, and if you think an improved N-Air would overshadow Z-Air then you're dead wrong.

i don't zee z-air as an aerial more so it's own thing.
i agree is (IMO) top tier while is (IMO) bottom tier, the buffs individually were fine, but you have to look at the package as a whole and how the buffs interact, for example giving a HOO-HAH is okay as long as you don't also buff his grab range and up-air knockback, maybe give link a frame 5/6 nair make the strong hit last longer and a 1 percent damage buff all around.