Shroom for the Stars: Captain Toad for Smash 4! CHAPTER 11: IT'S A MII; TOAD!

[WeirdChillFever]

Chao indisputably have more relevance to Sonic lore than Toads do to Mario, in fact.

Duh, you can't be relevant to lore when your series has little to no lore.

But yeah, Mario&Sonic does suggest Chao and Toads are around the same league (though iirc, Bee-girl and Cheese were referees in the original alongside Toad, and Pianta was a Dream VIP as well as Big the Cat, so roles might not stay true to importance in games)

 

[ChikoLad]

Duh, you can't be relevant to lore when your series has little to no lore.

But yeah, Mario&Sonic does suggest Chao and Toads are around the same league (though iirc, Bee-girl and Cheese were referees in the original alongside Toad, and Pianta was a Dream VIP as well as Big the Cat, so roles might not stay true to importance in games)

The Mario franchise does have a lot of lore actually, it's just not as obviously portrayed as in Sonic. Mario also pretty much began without much lore, while Sonic has had it since the first game, and Sonic 3 & Knuckles was actually very lore heavy for it's time, as far as platform games go.

 

[Munomario777]

Since the generic Toad in Smash is apparently not allowed to have anything from Super Mario Bros. 2, New Super Mario Bros. Wii/U, and Super Mario 3D World... oh, and especially not Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker... the only stuff that would make a generic Toad unique would have to be from Wario's Woods... can Toad have something from Wario's Woods or is it not unique to Toad because Wario?

It's not that they're "not allowed" to have anything from those games. He just doesn't have anything there to draw from that's uniquely his.

Whilst I personally prefer Captain these days to regular Toad; I'm afraid I don't agree at all with that comparison.

Yes they both require rescuing at some point, but Toad takes on a far more active role; even at his most NPC, Toad is usually depicted aiding Mario in some sort of way opposed to the animal friends who...don't actually aid Sonic in any way. When was the last time Johnny Lightfoot aided Sonic outside the comics for example?

As Sonicbrawler pointed out, the animal friends have helped Sonic in some ways. They're not the point of discussion here, however.

Sonic animal friends and Chao have also never been playable characters unlike Toad. Cheese the Chao is arguably playable in one game and in as much as Luma is playable in Smash since you technically play Cream and send him to assault everything on stage. You don't really play as Cheese.

You play as Chao in the Chao Garden competitions in both Sonic Adventure titles, i.e. the race. As for Cheese, he's Cream's main form of attack in Sonic Advance 2 & 3. You may as well be playing as just Cheese; he can kill anything onscreen with the press of a button! Cream has no real reason to be here in all honesty. He also appears in games like Sonic Heroes and Sonic Battle.

That said, I'm not sure that there is a perfect comparison here.

To put it lightly;
If Mario is Player 1 and Luigi is Player 2 then Toad is Player 3. Or 4. Or sometimes both game depending. Whilst NSMB required all four characters to play the same(for some reason; guess they threw that idea out in Luigi U with Nabbit) Toad has still been playable in SMB2 and 3D World platformer wise.

Also worth noting Mario and Luigi play identical in the NSMB games despite the fact we're well aware Luigi has lower traction, a higher jump and overall tweaked stats to Mario in many other games.
Likewise Toad is usually depicted as; more powerful than Mario and Luigi(seen via Turnip Pluck speed in SMB2 and various references to 'surprising strength'), faster than the brothers(and Peach) and with crappier jumps. Even regular Toad is at least as unique as Luigi is to Mario at this point. How unique that actually is comes down to personal opinion.

It's barely unique, and certainly not unique enough to justify a Smash moveset.

Not that I'd be against deleting Doc from Smash entirely and having Toad as a Mario/Luigi Semi-clone with a few tweaked specials(like giant turnip pluck from Peach). He'd have a little more merit than Mario in a labcoat at least.

At least Dr. Mario actually does his own unique things from Mario and co. in his games.

You mean the game where Wario doesn't do anything at all apart from appear at the end as a boss? Yeah, I doubt anyone can take Wario's Woods away from Toad. That was HIS game, no question.

But hey; I'd be down with a Wario's Woods inspired moveset too; running up walls, summoning and stacking enemies to use as projectiles and use them as cover from attacks, line up three monsters, set off a bomb and create a massive explosion. That actually does sound pretty cool as a gimmick to me for regular Toad.

Alternatively; Toad is also able to summon mushrooms in Mario Sports Mix, which is another power that is unique to him:

In fact overall Toad is probably the Mario character MOST associated with mushrooms. Apart from his obvious appearance, Toad's special item in Double Dash(the only Mario Kart to have unique weapons) was the Golden Mushroom, which is something Smash Bros. Crusade ran with, and not to mention the very often overlooked ability to create spores.
Toad originally showcased his spores in Mario Tennis 64 befpre becoming a Smash staple. Should he have been included it's a safe bet these spores would of been in his moveset too.

Considering the amount of Toad Houses he's run as well, the minigames from the NSMB series Toad Houses are also unique moveset fodder for the more generic Toad.

It's not like Toad has NO unique moveset potential. It's just considerably less obvious than Captain Toad's moveset potential...

The thing about mushrooms is, while he is often associated with mushrooms, he doesn't actually do anything special with them. He can summon them out of thin air, but so can everyone else in 3D World. Contrast with Shadow from the Sonic series. He's the character most often associated with Chaos Control. As such, he uses it to a degree that other characters have not. He can teleport entire asteroids, create giant explosions, send arrows of energy at his foes, and even take off his Inhibitor Rings to unlock his full potential. Toad doesn't do this with the mushrooms.

As for the spores, that's about the only thing he has going for him in my opinion. Makes sense that that's all he'd do in Smash, then, eh? (looks at Peach's neutral special)

...which is why I have to agree with this statement as well.

Additionally as much as I'd be up for a default Toad alt(I'd freaking love it, that Toad was my childhood after all), considering his moveset will most likely include the backpack; a major gameplay excuse of the Captain Toad game, and his headlamp I can't see how regular Toad would be able to even be an alt...at least without those two pieces of clothing.

Agreed.

 

[Arcadenik]

It's barely unique, and certainly not unique enough to justify a Smash moveset.

Like Sakurai said about Lucina, "whenever there is even a small difference in abilities, that character gets an actual roster slot."

So, yeah, it's still unique enough to justify a Smash moveset.

At least Dr. Mario actually does his own unique things from Mario and co. in his games.

Like what? All Dr. Mario did was throw pills into a jar full of viruses. That's the only thing that made him different from Mario in Smash... and it still was enough to justify a Smash moveset twice (Melee and SSB4)

The thing about mushrooms is, while he is often associated with mushrooms, he doesn't actually do anything special with them. He can summon them out of thin air, but so can everyone else in 3D World. Contrast with Shadow from the Sonic series. He's the character most often associated with Chaos Control. As such, he uses it to a degree that other characters have not. He can teleport entire asteroids, create giant explosions, send arrows of energy at his foes, and even take off his Inhibitor Rings to unlock his full potential. Toad doesn't do this with the mushrooms.

Duh.... no kidding, Sherlock. Toad doesn't teleport asteroids, create explosions, or send arrows at his enemies.... that's because the mushrooms don't do any of these.

So what if everyone else can summon mushrooms out of thin air in 3D World... Toad is still associated with mushrooms regardless. He is MORE associated with mushrooms than everyone else is... remember, like you said about Rosalina and how Lumas are MORE associated with Rosalina despite Mario being the one using Lumas in Galaxy games.

Toad can use Poison Mushrooms in the original Super Mario Kart.... Toad can use Golden Mushrooms in Mario Kart Double Dash... Toad can summon mushrooms in Mario Sports Mix... Toad can use Miracle Mushrooms, Poison Mushrooms, Mushroom Hammer, and Mushroom Powder in Mario Kart Arcade GP 1-2.

 

[YoshiandToad]

The thing about mushrooms is, while he is often associated with mushrooms, he doesn't actually do anything special with them. He can summon them out of thin air, but so can everyone else in 3D World. Contrast with Shadow from the Sonic series. He's the character most often associated with Chaos Control. As such, he uses it to a degree that other characters have not. He can teleport entire asteroids, create giant explosions, send arrows of energy at his foes, and even take off his Inhibitor Rings to unlock his full potential. Toad doesn't do this with the mushrooms.

I was referring to Sports Mix, rather than 3D World with Toad's ability to summon mushrooms btw, not sure where 3D World's ability to get a power up from thin air came from as I wasn't using that as the example.

Also he's clearly the character MOST associated with mushrooms as Shadow is the character most associated with Chaos Control. Toad isn't the solo user of mushrooms, it's true, but Shadow isn't the solo user of Chaos Control.

Heck; Luigi isn't the solo user of the fire flower, and Peach isn't the solo user of turnips yet both have these in their movesets.

If jumping a bit higher is considered a skill that makes Luigi unique to Mario, I have no idea why super strength and super speed isn't considered a skill that makes Toad unique to Mario either.

At least Dr. Mario actually does his own unique things from Mario and co. in his games.

So does Toad though; Spores, walking up walls, bombs, plucking and stacking critters. Hell he's done more in his puzzle game than Doc ever did.

I implore you; play Wario's Woods and you'll see Toad easily 'stacks up' against Doc in the 'does unique things' whilst also appearing more frequently and not being the same dude in a coat department.

 

[Arcadenik]

@ YoshiandToad I think he meant that part where you press the - button to use your spare items in 3D World.

And yes, you are right... Luigi isn't the solo user of the Fire Flower and Peach isn't the solo user of turnips... and I may add, Rosalina certainly isn't the solo user of Lumas.

 

[ChikoLad]

Like Sakurai said about Lucina, "whenever there is even a small difference in abilities, that character gets an actual roster slot."

So, yeah, it's still unique enough to justify a Smash moveset.

You are posting that statement in the wrong context. What Sakurai meant by that is that Lucina, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit were all originally costumes for other characters, but he decided to give them small differences at the last minute, meaning they got their own roster slots since it might mess players up if they had different properties while sharing the same slot.

Lucina and Dark Pit otherwise are actually characters that have unique traits that could have justified a roster slot (while Dark Pit is Pit's equal, he could have still had a different move set from Pit through using different weapons), and Dr. Mario is literally Mario, the differences he gets from Mario in Smash are completely arbitrary.

That statement has no bearing on Toad as he was never planned to be playable in Smash as even a costume.

So what if everyone else can summon mushrooms out of thin air in 3D World... Toad is still associated with mushrooms regardless. He is MORE associated with mushrooms than everyone else is... remember, like you said about Rosalina and how Lumas are MORE associated with Rosalina despite Mario being the one using Lumas in Galaxy games.

No, Lumas are completely associated with Rosalina. Who gives Mario Young Master Luma to aid him on his quest? Rosalina. Who do the Lumas Mario speaks to always talk about? Rosalina. Who raises the Lumas and is literally their adoptive mother? Rosalina.

Association is a vague term, but Rosalina isn't merely associated with Lumas, they are integrally linked, they are a vital part of each other's backstory. While Lumas may help out other characters like Mario on occasion, it is thanks to Rosalina that can even happen, and what's more, Rosalina doesn't actually get help from the Lumas in Galaxy outside of the storybook, it's the other way around, Rosalina looks after them. The only other time Rosalina has gotten help from Lumas in a Mario game is her Bogey animations in Mario Golf, which are just meant to be silly and there for comedic effect (I seriously doubt Rosalina would actually faint over getting a Bogey in golf, she's been through too much for that to be the case - melodramatic Bogey animations are just a running gag in Mario Golf, regardless of the character).

So while adult Rosalina doesn't really get help from the Lumas in the Mario games, it doesn't matter. Sakurai established that Rosalina is holding back her true potential in Smash in a certain Miiverse post (and it should be blatantly obvious that she is if you played Galaxy), and Lumas tend to be hanging out with Rosalina all of the time and they have a strong bond with her - it makes sense that this would leave room for Lumas to fight by her side in Smash. It would not make sense for any other character, as no other character has such a strong emotional bond with the Lumas, no other character has a Luma by their side whenever possible. Also, in Smash, the brown skin/blue eyes Luma that Rosalina can get is actually a specific Luma character called Polari, who is described as being Rosalina's father figure after the loss of her parents. It would not make any sense at all to pair him up with anyone else, he literally has no major connection to any other character.

While Toad may use Mushrooms as a unique power-up in the occasional side game, people associate power-ups (Mushrooms included) with Mario himself first and foremost. Power-ups are literally the defining gimmick of Mario, they set Mario apart from other platformers (other platformers have power-ups but they aren't as integral as they are to Mario, and no other franchise has the sheer amount of power-ups Mario has). Mushrooms in particular are Mario's health system. No matter what you think, everyone and their mother associates Mushrooms and power-ups with Mario himself. It's like how, yeah, Sonic isn't the only Sonic character that can go fast by a long shot, but since it's the main gimmick of the franchise, and he is the one who first made use of it, he will always be associated with speed more than any other character, and he will always be given a more speed oriented move set or stats in games that incorporate other playable characters.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

While you can't give Toad every Mushroom ever and call it a day, certain mushes like the Poison Mushroom, Golden Mushroom and generic non-power up mushrooms are very close to Toad, being his special moves in various spin-offs, as well as fitting his natural affinity for Power-Ups through him running the Toad Houses.

A better comparison would be how Waluigi's movesets involve bombs, or even how his AT dons a Tennis Racket.
These things aren't exclusive or don't have a mother-and-child bond with him, but it fits the character and its roles.

Anyways, until I think of another point, I call this a win for SonicBrawler.
At Mario debating, he's Rosalina levels of godly and my avatar perfectly reflects the reaction I have when typing up points against him.

 

[Munomario777]

Like Sakurai said about Lucina, "whenever there is even a small difference in abilities, that character gets an actual roster slot."

So, yeah, it's still unique enough to justify a Smash moveset.

I don't really think that Lucina's inclusion was really justified, in my opinion. That said, Lucina doesn't really have a moveset; she just uses Marth's, with one thing changed. She's a clone. Being included in Smash as a playable character and having a moveset in Smash are two different things.

(Also, second what Sonicbrawler said on the matter.)

Like what? All Dr. Mario did was throw pills into a jar full of viruses. That's the only thing that made him different from Mario in Smash... and it still was enough to justify a Smash moveset twice (Melee and SSB4)

I also don't really think that Dr. Mario really deserves a slot. He's in, and I'm not really bothered by it -- he's just a clone after all, without that much time or anything put in, no harm done -- but I don't think he really deserved it.

Duh.... no kidding, Sherlock. Toad doesn't teleport asteroids, create explosions, or send arrows at his enemies.... that's because the mushrooms don't do any of these.

Did I ever say that mushrooms would have to do the same things as Chaos Control for Toad to be justifiable? No. If Toad could make use of mushrooms in a unique way that no one else does, that would be a reason for him to be included. Like, I dunno, becoming a bee or a ghost with them, like only Mario and Luigi do. Or having an additional ability when he has a Super Mushroom -- like a higher jump or something. But nope, he just does the same thing that Mario already did about twenty-four years before Toad ever did.

So what if everyone else can summon mushrooms out of thin air in 3D World... Toad is still associated with mushrooms regardless. He is MORE associated with mushrooms than everyone else is... remember, like you said about Rosalina and how Lumas are MORE associated with Rosalina despite Mario being the one using Lumas in Galaxy games.

Toad can use Poison Mushrooms in the original Super Mario Kart.... Toad can use Golden Mushrooms in Mario Kart Double Dash... Toad can summon mushrooms in Mario Sports Mix... Toad can use Miracle Mushrooms, Poison Mushrooms, Mushroom Hammer, and Mushroom Powder in Mario Kart Arcade GP 1-2.

I'll get to Luma in a sec. However, here's things that Mario does with mushrooms that Toad doesn't:

• Become a bee with them
• Become a Boo with them
• Become a spring with them
• Become a super-fast boulder with them
• Eat (or drink?) shakes made of them
• Use them twenty-four years before Toad ever did

Meanwhile, Toad only sells them and happens to look like them. Oh yeah, and happens to have them in a few spin-off games. You're really reaching here. Mario does more things with mushrooms in the main series alone than Toad ever did in the main series and spin-offs. (Uniquely speaking, of course.)

As for Lumas, Sonicbrawler put it best. I'll also add, though, that Lumas aren't in the same spot as mushrooms; they're part of the character, equal to Rosalina, rather than a simple tool used by her. The character is Rosalina & Luma.

I was referring to Sports Mix, rather than 3D World with Toad's ability to summon mushrooms btw, not sure where 3D World's ability to get a power up from thin air came from as I wasn't using that as the example.

I see. I don't think that summoning things in from midair would really factor towards an inclusion in Smash or anything, since characters do that all the time anyways.

Also he's clearly the character MOST associated with mushrooms as Shadow is the character most associated with Chaos Control. Toad isn't the solo user of mushrooms, it's true, but Shadow isn't the solo user of Chaos Control.

Shadow is the best at using Chaos Control. Others can teleport and time travel with it, sure, but Shadow can teleport entire asteroids and stop time singlehandedly -- whereas it normally takes two users and two Emeralds for others. He also has access to abilities such as Chaos Blast, Chaos Spear, Chaos Lance, etc, and if it weren't for Shadow, no one else would even know about Chaos Control. Chaos Control is Shadow's thing. Meanwhile, Toad is outclassed in mushroom usage by Mario and Luigi, and only served to sell these mushrooms to them for the first twenty-four years of the series.

Heck; Luigi isn't the solo user of the fire flower, and Peach isn't the solo user of turnips yet both have these in their movesets.

Luigi and Peach...

• have enough other unique stuff in their moveset to justify this. Luigi's awkward personality shines through into his moveset, and he has other moves that play off of this. Peach is the generic "girly" character, and her floating abilities and such are unique enough to justify her inclusion.
• used these abilities in their first appearances. Luigi was in the original Super Mario Bros., where the Fire Flower first originated, and used it right alongside Mario. Peach plucked things in Super Mario Bros. 2, the first appearance of this mechanic. Toad, on the other hand, had to wait about twenty-four years.

Meanwhile, Toad...

• doesn't really have a lot of unique stuff to him. He has different stats, and a generic counter move. Whoo.
• used his most associated abilities over two decades after Mario did. Toad copied Mario; he's a shoehorned-in Mario and Luigi clone.

If jumping a bit higher is considered a skill that makes Luigi unique to Mario, I have no idea why super strength and super speed isn't considered a skill that makes Toad unique to Mario either.

It's not. Luigi has a unique personality. He's awkward; he's funny; he's strangely charming. His moveset replicates this; his movement is strange, his Super Jump punch goes straight up and then has him slowly fall back down; he has a high jump but a horrid air speed; his movement and playstyle just feels... weird. That's what Luigi is. If you look closely at his moveset, you'll see that his high jump and low traction isn't really a focus in his moveset; it's his personality and character that really shines through. Toad, being a species and not a character, lacks personality and character. Captain Toad, on the other hand, is a member of a species, with plenty of personality and character to translate into a moveset. Plus all his unique abilities (or lack of abilities, in some cases).

So does Toad though; Spores, walking up walls, bombs, plucking and stacking critters. Hell he's done more in his puzzle game than Doc ever did.

I implore you; play Wario's Woods and you'll see Toad easily 'stacks up' against Doc in the 'does unique things' whilst also appearing more frequently and not being the same dude in a coat department.

Spores, as we see in Smash, aren't really enough to justify a moveset. Sonic walks up walls. He's done so since the Genesis games (more like running really), but it's most notable in Sonic Lost World with his new parkour skillset. Bombs? Really? That's far from unique. The three Links, Samus, and Duck Hunt already do that in Smash. Heck, Wario and Waluigi use them in Mario Kart, while Toad doesn't. Plucking things has been done since SMB2 (and more recently, Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker). We're left with stacking things, which has been done by about every puzzle game ever, including the Dr. Mario games. Note the "s" in "games", by the way. Dr. Mario is a series; it's what that character is known for. Wario's Woods is an obscure spin-off title that Toad only appeared in once. It's not even his game. In the main Mario series, where Toad is most prominent, Toad is a Mario clone who uses his most associated power-ups to a lesser extent than Mario. He was late to the trend of power-ups by over two decades, and he has barely anything that stands out about his character. Because really, there is no character. Toad is a species; a generic representation of a race that shows no real major unique abilities. He'd be lucky to be a clone of Mario, like he is in the main series.

 

[PixelPasta]

Meanwhile, Toad...

• doesn't really have a lot of unique stuff to him. He has different stats, and a generic counter move. Whoo.
• used his most associated abilities over two decades after Mario did. Toad copied Mario; he's a shoehorned-in Mario and Luigi clone.

Sorry, but this simply isn't true.

I made a topic on GameFaqs, analyzing all of Toad's unique abilities and potential moveset options. I've been meaning to post it here for a while, and now seems like an appropriate time...
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/72252191
Listed in that topic are numerous abilities that are specific to Toad. He is more than a mere clone with some slight stat changes.

(PS: Hi again everybody. I haven't posted here in a while; I really need to get back to chatting with you guys more regularly!)

 

[Munomario777]

Sorry, this simply isn't true.

I made a topic on GameFaqs, analyzing all of Toad's unique abilities and potential moveset options. I've been meaning to post it here for a while, and now seems like an appropriate time...
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/72252191
Listed in that topic are numerous abilities that are specific to Toad. He is more than a mere clone with some slight stat changes.

(PS: Hi again everybody. I haven't posted here in a while; I really need to get back to chatting with you guys more regularly!)

Hello, welcome back! Now, to refute your points.

• Everyone grabs and throws in SMB2 (and in Smash as well).
• Everyone has a charge jump in SMB2.
• Other characters can run up walls; see my previous post.
• Arm flapping? Doesn't really seem like a moveset justification to me... It could be included in his moveset, but that's only if he has a unique "Toad" moveset to begin with.
• Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Rosalina can spin.
• Luigi and Yoshi flutter kick. The only reason that Toad does it in NSLU is because the engine operates on Luigi's physics, and all the characters have to be the same physics-wise.
• Spores, as we see in Smash, aren't enough to justify a whole moveset; it's just one move.
• Everyone can spin jump in 3D World.
• Everyone can long jump in 3D World.
• Everyone can backflip in 3D World.
• Everyone plucks vegetables in SMB2.
• Everyone uses mushroom blocks in SMB2 (I assume).
• Other characters both in Smash (Link, Samus) and in the Mario series (Wario, Waluigi, Bob-ombs) use bombs, and Toad only did it once.
• Toad didn't use the items in the item chest; Mario did.
• Everyone in Mario Kart drives karts.
• Everyone in Mario Kart uses golden mushrooms.
• Everyone in Mario Party uses power stars. Also, Mario did it first; they appeared in Super Mario 64. Although Rosalina is most associated with them anyways, as they're from space and all (going by Galaxy's plot anyways).
• Tons of other Mario characters use hammers, such as the Hammer Bros.
• Everyone uses bubbles in NSMBWii.
• Mario used spring mushrooms first; in Galaxy.
• The POW Block is used by every Mario character.
• Mega Mushrooms were used by Mario first. Mushrooms are Mario's thing; he's been using them for decades before Toad ever did.
• The backpack, headlamp, super pickaxe, turnip cart, propeller platform, turnip cannon, super gem, Toad Brigade, and giant turnip are for Captain Toad, who has far more unique things to him. He's an actual character, not a species, and the superior character choice since he actually is a character. He has unique attributes, abilities, tools, and personality. Toad, meanwhile, just copies the same thing that everyone else does.

 

[Arcadenik]

Anything we can come up for generic Toad... Mario did it!

This is literally @ Munomario777 's argument against generic Toad.

 

[ChikoLad]

Anything we can come up for generic Toad... Mario did it!

This is literally @ Munomario777 's argument against generic Toad.

You can make sarcastic jabs at his points all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that his point is fairly sound.

Once again, if you look at interviews with Sakurai as well as his design documents, he has stated numerous times that one of the biggest things he looks for in characters is a sense of a unique identity in them. Generic Toad(s) doesn't have that, at all...I mean, you LITERALLY just called him generic yourself.

I don't see why we should put in a generic, non specific Toad, over a Toad with his own unique identity and characteristics to draw from. Captain Toad is basically Nintendo's cutesy and child friendly Nathan Drake, and that's appealing and has a lot more to work with than the generic Toads who basically have no personality or special traits.

 

[PixelPasta]

Thanks for the reply, I'll edit in my responses/corrections to some of your points below:

• Everyone grabs and throws in SMB2 (and in Smash as well). But Toad was the best/fastest at picking things up, so it makes sense for him - it is his strong point; a primary skill of his. Furthermore, the SMB2-style grabbing and throwing carried on into Wario's Woods and Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker (both Toad-centered games) and not any other Mario games, so the connection to Toad is stronger than any other character.
• Everyone has a charge jump in SMB2. I can't refute that, but it still doesn't mean that Toad can't/shouldn't use it in his moveset. It would represent an important part of his history: his first playable appearance!
• Other characters can run up walls; see my previous post. Wait, so because Sonic can run up walls, that means a Mario character shouldn't? They are from different series entirely, why does it matter if two characters can do similar moves? A move doesn't need to be 100% unique to be included in Smash. Honestly this seems like you're just reaching for excuses to refute Toad's moves... it's move that's completely unique to Toad in the Mario universe; that's not good enough?
• Arm flapping? Doesn't really seem like a moveset justification to me... It could be included in his moveset, but that's only if he has a unique "Toad" moveset to begin with. It's just a reference to something that Toad has done in the past. That's what you do when you make a moveset; you find things they have done in games and use them. I'm not trying to justify his entire moveset around this move
• Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Rosalina can spin. Again, why does this matter? Is Toad not allowed to spin because other characters have as well? It's a specific reference to a member of the Toad brigade; it isn't the same kind of spinning that the other characters do.
• Luigi and Yoshi flutter kick. The only reason that Toad does it in NSLU is because the engine operates on Luigi's physics, and all the characters have to be the same physics-wise. Why does the reason why he does it matter? It's still a move he has used canonically.
• Spores, as we see in Smash, aren't enough to justify a whole moveset; it's just one move. His whole moveset doesn't need to be 'justified' by spores. As you can see, this is an entire list of all the other things he could do as well.
• Everyone can spin jump in 3D World. This is true, but not absolutely every move needs to be completely unique. It is likely that this move would simply be an aerial attack - which doesn't need to be 100% distinct. Mario and Luigi's tilts/aerials/smashes are often variants of one another, so I don't see why this can't be a similar situation.
• Everyone can long jump in 3D World. Same as above. Besides, a Mario character is yet to do this in Smash, so why can't Toad be the first?
• Everyone can backflip in 3D World. Same as above.
• Everyone plucks vegetables in SMB2. But it makes most sense for Toad: A) it represents his first playable appearance, B) Toad was the best at plucking, so it was a major skill of his, and C) it is a continued ability of Toad in Treasure Tracker (no other Mario character continues to use vegetables to this day).
• Everyone uses mushroom blocks in SMB2 (I assume). Same as above; it represents aspects of Toad much better than it would any other character.
• Other characters both in Smash (Link, Samus) and in the Mario series (Wario, Waluigi, Bob-ombs) use bombs, and Toad only did it once. This is a very odd argument - once again, just because other characters from other series use 'similar' moves (and really, the only similarity is that they are explosives), this move is now not valid for Toad? Besides, both Link and Samus's bombs are drastically different than those from Wario's Woods. Again, this is a move that's completely unique to Toad, and you're using made-up parameters as to why that isn't good enough.
• Toad didn't use the items in the item chest; Mario did. But still, they are closely related to Toad as a character, so I'd say it makes sense. He's the only one seen with the item chests themselves.
• Everyone in Mario Kart drives karts. But the specific kart - the 'Toad Kart' - is Toad's unique vehicle, most closely associated with him. Look at it this way, if Mario had a move where he rode the Toad Kart, would that make sense? No - there is only one character who this specific move would fit.
• Everyone in Mario Kart uses golden mushrooms. But it was Toad's special item. Therefore is associated most closely with him. Just because other characters can use it, does not mean it is any less of a Toad item.
• Everyone in Mario Party uses power stars. Also, Mario did it first; they appeared in Super Mario 64. Although Rosalina is most associated with them anyways, as they're from space and all (going by Galaxy's plot anyways).
• Tons of other Mario characters use hammers, such as the Hammer Bros. But the appearance of the hammer, and the manner in which he uses it, is pretty unique to Toad in Mario Party.
• Everyone uses bubbles in NSMBWii. But still, no character has used it in Smash - so Toad can be the one to do this. Nonetheless, it makes sense for him; when playable Toads were added, so was the ability to use the bubble.
• Mario used spring mushrooms first; in Galaxy. Actually, I think you are mistaken, perhaps I should have clarified - I wasn't referring to the Galaxy power-up. I was referring to the mushroom seen here: https://youtu.be/6x005EwE5Bs?t=321 (which hasn't been used by Mario)
• The POW Block is used by every Mario character. Again, this is a situation where, yes, it has been used by other Mario characters, but not in Smash - so Toad can easily be the first one to do so. And it also fits well with him, because of the whole SMB2 connection.
  
• Mega Mushrooms were used by Mario first. Mushrooms are Mario's thing; he's been using them for decades before Toad ever did. But Toad is a mushroom. And one who is often seen selling mushroom items, as well. Thematically it makes sense.
• The backpack, headlamp, super pickaxe, turnip cart, propeller platform, turnip cannon, super gem, Toad Brigade, and giant turnip are for Captain Toad, who has far more unique things to him. He's an actual character, not a species, and the superior character choice since he actually is a character. He has unique attributes, abilities, tools, and personality. Toad, meanwhile, just copies the same thing that everyone else does. Firstly, whose to say that Toad couldn't use any of these items or abilities? Both classic and captain are both Toads, so it's not like it isn't fitting.
• I mean, don't get me wrong, I love Captain Toad, and would love to see him in Smash (in fact, he was my Smash ballot vote!). But as has been discussed time and time again by the Toad fanbase, "generic" Toad is a character. He has personality, he has unique attributes and abilities. Would Captain Toad be a better choice? That's subjective. But we shouldn't so easily dismiss classic Toad.

Specific points aside: overall, your argument is a little bit silly. You seem to be implying that a character can only use a move if they are the only character to use it. If a move has been used 'before' by another character, it's off limits for that character - am I understanding your point correctly?
If that were the case, the same arguments could be applied to most of the other Mario characters. For example:

Luigi:
-"Mario used fireballs first"
-"Jumping was used by Mario first"

Peach:
-"Everybody could pluck vegetables in SMB2"

Rosalina:
-"Rosalina didn't use star bits, Mario did"
-"Rosalina didn't use the launch stars, Mario did"
-"Rosalina didn't use the 'gravitational pull' star cursor, the player did"

These are not sound arguments. If this mindset were applied to most other Smash characters, well, a lot of characters would have never been added, on the basis of "no unique moves".

 

[PixelPasta]

You can make sarcastic jabs at his points all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that his point is fairly sound.

Once again, if you look at interviews with Sakurai as well as his design documents, he has stated numerous times that one of the biggest things he looks for in characters is a sense of a unique identity in them. Generic Toad(s) doesn't have that, at all...I mean, you LITERALLY just called him generic yourself.

I don't see why we should put in a generic, non specific Toad, over a Toad with his own unique identity and characteristics to draw from. Captain Toad is basically Nintendo's cutesy and child friendly Nathan Drake, and that's appealing and has a lot more to work with than the generic Toads who basically have no personality or special traits.

I think, perhaps, 'generic' is a misnomer. I don't think we (the Toad fans) mean 'generic' as in the actual definition you've cited above.

Personally, I stick with 'classic' Toad. It sounds a lot less negative; 'generic' is often used to detract from a character.

 

[Arcadenik]

I don't see why "generic" has to be used as a slur or a detriment against a potential Smash candidate. If we are using the dictionary, then we might as well use the thesaurus too...

The synonyms for "generic" is the following: general, common, collective, nonspecific, inclusive, all-encompassing, broad, comprehensive, blanket, umbrella

This goes back to what sparked this current debate last night...

This is why Toad fans and Captain Toad fans shouldn't be taking sides over which Toad is more deserving to be in Smash...

If you are a fan of all Toads, including Toad and Captain Toad and Blue and Yellow Toads, then the playable Toad in Smash should be based on all of them... instead of being based only on Toad, or only on Captain Toad, or only on the Blue and Yellow Toads... and the playable Toad in Smash would have alts of Toad, Captain Toad, Toadette, and the Toad Brigade. We can have them all!

The playable Toad in Smash is nonspecific... because with the alts, it can be the classic Toad, Captain Toad, a member of the Toad Brigade, or even Toadette.

The playable Toad in Smash is inclusive... because it is based on all Toads, not based on only one specific Toad... and there's no need to exclude almost everything "because Mario did it first!"

The playable Toad in Smash is all-encompassing... because the moveset and gameplay are based on all the playable Toads from SMB2, WW, NSMBWii, NSMBU, SM3DW, and CTTT.

The playable Toad in Smash is comprehensive... because it includes all or almost all elements or aspects of the Toad species throughout many games... including playable Toads and nonplayable Toads.

 

[PixelPasta]

I don't see why "generic" has to be used as a slur or a detriment against a potential Smash candidate. If we are using the dictionary, then we might as well use the thesaurus too...

The synonyms for "generic" is the following: general, common, collective, nonspecific, inclusive, all-encompassing, broad, comprehensive, blanket, umbrella

This goes back to what sparked this current debate last night...



The playable Toad in Smash is nonspecific... because with the alts, it can be the classic Toad, Captain Toad, a member of the Toad Brigade, or even Toadette.

The playable Toad in Smash in inclusive... because it is based on all Toads, not based on only one specific Toad... and there's no need to exclude almost everything "because Mario did it first!"

The playable Toad in Smash is all-encompassing... because the moveset and gameplay are based on all the playable Toads from SMB2, WW, NSMBWii, NSMBU, SM3DW, and CTTT.

The playable Toad in Smash is comprehensive... because it includes all or almost all elements or aspects of the Toad species throughout many games... including playable Toads and nonplayable Toads.

Oh, I totally agree with this. I support all Toads!
I'd love to have an all-encompassing Toad character with Classic, Captain, the Toad Brigade, and Toadette as costumes. I certainly don't see the problem with the moveset taking influence from all Toad games.

 

[ChikoLad]

I didn't use it as a negative slur, my point is that characters in Smash tend to have more of a specific identity. There is only one Captain Toad, but there are many generic Toads, not just one. The generic kind of Toad doesn't have much worth working with, but Captain Toad has a lot. He's a more appealing character and he'd be more unique as a fighter. It's a no-brainer to include him.

I don't want generic Toads in Smash as the central character because I don't care about them and Nintendo has never genuinely given me a reason to care about them. They are blank slates with no personality, so I've no reason to care. They did give me a reason to care about Captain Toad and they did give him a personality and a unique hook, so he makes much more sense for Smash.

 

[PixelPasta]

I don't want generic Toads in Smash as the central character because I don't care about them and Nintendo has never genuinely given me a reason to care about them. They are blank slates with no personality, so I've no reason to care. They did give me a reason to care about Captain Toad and they did give him a personality and a unique hook, so he makes much more sense for Smash.

Maybe it's just me, but I've always felt that even the non-specific Toads are full of personality! I love their cheerful, chipper nature, but it's also so adorable when they get all frazzled and scared!
Just look at the little guys in Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV9t3Ux-2mQ
I find them so funny and cute!

 

[ChikoLad]

They are cute, but like, so is Yoshi. And Shy Guys. And Koopas. And Lumas. They are happy and cheerful, but so is pretty much every other Mario character (heck, Sonic was created to contrast Mario's own cheerful and jolly nature). A generic Toad does not stand out to me at all (besides the voice) because most Mario characters act just like him. Just this one-dimensional cookie cutter "LOOK IM HAPPY" personality. And that's fine honestly in the context of Mario and for the purpose regular Toads serve, but Captain Toad is much more interesting and fleshed out, so I think he's the better choice for Smash. He has more individuality.

I don't hate them, and I get my laughs from them because of the voice, but Captain Toad has that and has a more fleshed out personality to boot, and you can actually somewhat relate to him. It felt like Nintendo actually tried to make me care about him, and they succeeded.

 

[Munomario777]

Thanks for the reply, I'll edit in my responses/corrections to some of your points below:

• "Toad did it faster than the others" isn't a reason that it's unique to him. Peach seems to pluck things faster than she does in SMB2 with her down special anyway. Also, you bring up Captain Toad, who is, for the purpose of this discussion, a separate entity; we're discussion normal Toad versus Captain Toad in terms of moveset potential and the like. And if we're talking about who's best at plucking things and stuff, Captain Toad takes that prize. He plucks turnips, gems, coins, cannons, and giant turnips that can take out giant bird monsters.
• Charge jump, arm flapping, spinning, spin jump, long jump, backflip, bubbles, and POW blocks: "It would represent his first playable appearance" doesn't negate the fact that everyone else in the game can use the charge jump too. It's not an attribute of Toad; it's an attribute of Super Mario Bros. 2 -- as shown by the fact that he doesn't use it in other games. I'm not saying that Toad isn't allowed to have a spin, or a bubble, or anything like that; those would be perfectly valid moves. However, those moves aren't enough to justify his inclusion. He needs to have something unique so that he deserves to be in Smash before we can think of things like the spin.
• A move doesn't have to be 100% unique to be included in Smash, but the character should have something unique about them to be included in Smash. When Toad has something unique, then we can think about including other abilities. Wall running seems to be an attribute of the game anyway, seeing as how he doesn't demonstrate it in any other appearance.
• The flutter kick is an attribute of the game's engine. It's a Luigi game, so everyone controls like Luigi. In the actual game -- NSMBU -- we see the Toads and Luigi jumping normally. We see the Toads doing this in every other appearance. However, in NSLU, they get the flutter jump so that they control like Luigi. It's an attribute of the game, not Toad.
• Spores, basically what I said in the second bullet point. I'm not seeing the unique things you're talking about here.
• Mushroom blocks and the hammer: How so?
• I don't think it's "completely unique to Toad" when several characters, both from the Mario series and Smash itself, use bombs more consistently, and in non-obscure-spinoff games. Bombs aren't unique to anyone.
• Toad's the only one seen with the item chests? Doesn't Mario approach it to get the items? Mario's the only one seen actually using the items.
• Toad has the Toad Kart, Luigi has the Luigi Kart, Bowser has the Bowser Kart, etc etc. Having a go-kart is nothing unique to Toad.
• Actually, the Gold Mushroom appeared about three years before Double Dash in Mario Party 2, where all characters could use it.
• Everyone else bounces on mushrooms; see Mushroom Gorge from Mario Kart Wii, or New Super Mario Bros. for the DS, which had bouncy mushrooms as well. Yes, just like most other things, Mario did it first.
• Mega Mushrooms aren't Toad's thing, though. They may as well be Goombas' thing, since they resemble mushrooms as well.
• "Toad and Captain Toad are both Toads, so they can use the same things." So, since Mario and Rosalina are both humans, does that mean that Mario can also control the cosmos?
• I'm not dismissing Toad because I like Captain Toad more (although I much prefer him to the generic design). I'm dismissing him because he has very little unique moveset potential, very little character -- he's a species -- and is usually a Mario clone.

Specific points aside: overall, your argument is a little bit silly. You seem to be implying that a character can only use a move if they are the only character to use it. If a move has been used 'before' by another character, it's off limits for that character - am I understanding your point correctly?

Not really; I'm saying that in order to get into Smash, a character should have something unique to them that no one else does, which frankly, Toad lacks.

If that were the case, the same arguments could be applied to most of the other Mario characters. For example:

Luigi:
-"Mario used fireballs first"
-"Jumping was used by Mario first"

-Actually, Mario and Luigi both used fireballs at the same time; they appeared in the original Super Mario Bros. alongside one another.
-Jumping is a basic Smash function that all characters share, so I'm not taking it into account here.

Peach:
-"Everybody could pluck vegetables in SMB2"

-And Peach has unique things to make up for this. Such as her floating, parasol, etc etc.

Rosalina:
-"Rosalina didn't use star bits, Mario did"
-"Rosalina didn't use the launch stars, Mario did"
-"Rosalina didn't use the 'gravitational pull' star cursor, the player did"

Keep in mind that both Rosalina and Luma are combined into the character. With that said, some rebuttals:
-Rosalina is the ruler of the cosmos, including star bits. Mario only used them to feed Lumas in the grand scheme of things. By the way, Lumas do more with star bits than Mario did; they turn into galaxies, mushrooms, etc using them, and even shoot them like Mario does -- at least, the co-star Luma does.
-Lumas are launch stars. It makes sense that they'd be in the Luma (and Rosalina) moveset rather than the Mario one.
-As did the co-star Luma. The Luma is actually better at it than Mario, in fact; while Mario only collects Star Bits and interacts with a few select objects, the Luma can bring in coins, mushrooms, stun enemies, and more. This is actually how the move works in Smash; it brings in items (coins and mushrooms), and custom moves allow her to stun foes as well -- specifically catch and release.

These are not sound arguments. If this mindset were applied to most other Smash characters, well, a lot of characters would have never been added, on the basis of "no unique moves".

Except they do have unique moves. Name a (non-clone) character, and I'll tell you what's unique about them. (I'll be giving a bit of leniency to Smash 64 sets as I always do, on the basis that they were in the first game in the series and thus the most basic.) Keep in mind that having generic moves (i.e. punches and kicks for a jab combo) doesn't mean that a character doesn't have unique moves.

 

[Arcadenik]

@ ChikoLad The other characters act just like Toad? So you are implying that Toad has a personality of his own and the other Mario characters are copying him.

And what is this cookie cutter "LOOK IM HAPPY" personality?

Yes, he is so happy to fight Wario.

Yes, he is so happy to be chased by a Bullet Bill.

Yes, he is so happy to be captured by Bowser's minions.

Yes, he is so happy to be in a haunted mansion.

Yes, he is so happy to be in a car accident.

Yes, he is so happy to fight Wart.

Yes, they are so happy Peach ran away to save Mario all on her own.

Yes, he is so happy to be trapped by a sticker.

 

[Munomario777]

@ ChikoLad The other characters act just like Toad? So you are implying that Toad has a personality of his own and the other Mario characters are copying him.

Haha.

And what is this cookie cutter "LOOK IM HAPPY" personality?

Yes, he is so happy to fight Wario.

Yes, he is so happy to be chased by a Bullet Bill.

Yes, he is so happy to be captured by Bowser's minions.

Yes, he is so happy to be in a haunted mansion.

Yes, he is so happy to be in a car accident.

Yes, he is so happy to fight Wart.

Yes, they are so happy Peach ran away to save Mario all on her own.

Yes, he is so happy to be trapped by a sticker.

Those are emotions. Every character has emotions (assuming they're not a robot or something). Emotions aren't personality.

 

[Arcadenik]

Haha.

Those are emotions. Every character has emotions (assuming they're not a robot or something). Emotions aren't personality.

What is a personality?

 

[Munomario777]

What is a personality?

"the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character."

Toad doesn't have a personality, because he's not an individual; he's a species.Captain Toad, however, is an individual, and has a personality.

 

[Arcadenik]

"the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character."

Toad doesn't have a personality, because he's not an individual; he's a species.Captain Toad, however, is an individual, and has a personality.

Again with the species argument.... we already have Yoshi in Smash... he is not an individual, he is a species.

 

[PixelPasta]

• "Toad did it faster than the others" isn't a reason that it's unique to him. Peach seems to pluck things faster than she does in SMB2 with her down special anyway. Also, you bring up Captain Toad, who is, for the purpose of this discussion, a separate entity; we're discussion normal Toad versus Captain Toad in terms of moveset potential and the like. And if we're talking about who's best at plucking things and stuff, Captain Toad takes that prize. He plucks turnips, gems, coins, cannons, and giant turnips that can take out giant bird monsters. Okay, sure, let's separate Toad and Captain Toad for the sake of argument. Toad is still the best a plucking, once we've excluded Captain Toad. Peach, who uses turnips in Smash right now, was actually the worst at plucking in SMB2, so it's kind of odd that she had that move if you think about it. It would probably fit most for Toad.
• Charge jump, arm flapping, spinning, spin jump, long jump, backflip, bubbles, and POW blocks: "It would represent his first playable appearance" doesn't negate the fact that everyone else in the game can use the charge jump too. It's not an attribute of Toad; it's an attribute of Super Mario Bros. 2 -- as shown by the fact that he doesn't use it in other games. But moves don't always need to be direct attributes of the characters that use them - look at Rosalina; she uses moves that have never been explicitly shown as her innate abilities, but rather, they represent her origin game - SMG - on the whole. The same can go for Toad. I'm not saying that Toad isn't allowed to have a spin, or a bubble, or anything like that; those would be perfectly valid moves. However, those moves aren't enough to justify his inclusion. He needs to have something unique so that he deserves to be in Smash before we can think of things like the spin. Okay, fair enough - I'll get into some unique aspects later in this post.
• A move doesn't have to be 100% unique to be included in Smash, but the character should have something unique about them to be included in Smash. When Toad has something unique, then we can think about including other abilities. Wall running seems to be an attribute of the game anyway, seeing as how he doesn't demonstrate it in any other appearance. I see no problem if a move is only used in one appearance. That has happened numerous times in Smash before (for example, Mario's cape is fairly limited to Super Mario World). And I still don't see a problem if a move represents a game that the character came from, rather than an innate ability of the character itself.
• The flutter kick is an attribute of the game's engine. It's a Luigi game, so everyone controls like Luigi. In the actual game -- NSMBU -- we see the Toads and Luigi jumping normally. We see the Toads doing this in every other appearance. However, in NSLU, they get the flutter jump so that they control like Luigi. It's an attribute of the game, not Toad. But what are you trying to say here? I fail to see the problem of a move being an 'attribute of the game's engine' rather than Toad.
• Spores, basically what I said in the second bullet point. I'm not seeing the unique things you're talking about here.
• Mushroom blocks and the hammer: How so? Mushroom blocks; again, like turnips, they represent Toad's first playable appearance; due to his canonical strength and speed when plucking/throwing they are a strong suit of his; and they fit him thematically because he is a mushroom. The hammer is visually distinct from other hammers throughout the Mario series - if I remember correctly, it's blue. Even if it is ultimately considered too generic, they could easily switch it out for the mushroom hammer, another one of Toad's special items from the Mario Kart series.
• I don't think it's "completely unique to Toad" when several characters, both from the Mario series and Smash itself, use bombs more consistently, and in non-obscure-spinoff games. Bombs aren't unique to anyone. But those specific types of bombs (the multicolored ones, almost as tall as Toad himself) are uniquely used by Toad in Wario's Woods. They weren't just bob-ombs. They could be made unique physically through different throwing arcs, and visually through classic effects.
• Toad's the only one seen with the item chests? Doesn't Mario approach it to get the items? Mario's the only one seen actually using the items. Okay, but Mario 'approaching' the chests doesn't make them a prop associated with him. Toad, as the shopkeeper, owns every single one of those chests, and all of the power-ups contained inside. Toad's item shop is a pretty iconic scene ever since SMB3. The three chests (and the dialogue "pick a box") are associated with Toad, as he owns them.
• Toad has the Toad Kart, Luigi has the Luigi Kart, Bowser has the Bowser Kart, etc etc. Having a go-kart is nothing unique to Toad. I never said having a go-kart was unique to Toad. But having the Toad Kart specifically is (and for the record, the 'Luigi Kart' and 'Bowser Kart' don't exist).
• Actually, the Gold Mushroom appeared about three years before Double Dash in Mario Party 2, where all characters could use it. That is a different power-up entirely. It has a different appearance (no crown), and very different functionally - it probably just happens to have the same name. Even if this were the case, it doesn't change the fact that the golden mushroom from Double Dash is Toad's unique item. Yes, other characters could use it, but it was still uniquely made for Toad as an item specifically associated with him.
• Everyone else bounces on mushrooms; see Mushroom Gorge from Mario Kart Wii, or New Super Mario Bros. for the DS, which had bouncy mushrooms as well. Yes, just like most other things, Mario did it first. Is 'Mario did it first' becoming the new 'too big'?
• Mega Mushrooms aren't Toad's thing, though. They may as well be Goombas' thing, since they resemble mushrooms as well. Unlike Toad, however, Goombas are not on the same level in terms of popularity or series importance to be playable, nor are they specifically associated with power-ups such as the mega mushroom.
• "Toad and Captain Toad are both Toads, so they can use the same things." So, since Mario and Rosalina are both humans, does that mean that Mario can also control the cosmos? I didn't say that. Now you're just misrepresenting my argument.
• I'm not dismissing Toad because I like Captain Toad more (although I much prefer him to the generic design). I'm dismissing him because he has very little unique moveset potential, very little character -- he's a species -- and is usually a Mario clone.

A few more responses

Not really; I'm saying that in order to get into Smash, a character should have something unique to them that no one else does, which frankly, Toad lacks.

Well, I already provided several moves and unique mechanics (including running up walls, which has never been done in Smash before), but you've dismissed those on the basis of other characters doing it 'first'.
But even if we put those aside, what about being a lightweight, speedy grappler? There isn't another Smash character like that.
If you look at Sakurai's Smash Wii U/3DS project proposal slides, it is clear what sort of traits Sakurai looks for in a character. Each new character has a 'theme' that sets them apart from the rest, usually condensed into a few buzzwords: 'puppet fighter', 'sword and magic user', etc. Sakurai seems to define uniqueness as a fresh, new archetype that a character could fill. Toad's could easily be 'fast, lightweight grappler'.

-Actually, Mario and Luigi both used fireballs at the same time; they appeared in the original Super Mario Bros. alongside one another.
-Jumping is a basic Smash function that all characters share, so I'm not taking it into account here.

-And Peach has unique things to make up for this. Such as her floating, parasol, etc etc.

Keep in mind that both Rosalina and Luma are combined into the character. With that said, some rebuttals:
-Rosalina is the ruler of the cosmos, including star bits. Mario only used them to feed Lumas in the grand scheme of things. By the way, Lumas do more with star bits than Mario did; they turn into galaxies, mushrooms, etc using them, and even shoot them like Mario does -- at least, the co-star Luma does.
-Lumas are launch stars. It makes sense that they'd be in the Luma (and Rosalina) moveset rather than the Mario one.
-As did the co-star Luma. The Luma is actually better at it than Mario, in fact; while Mario only collects Star Bits and interacts with a few select objects, the Luma can bring in coins, mushrooms, stun enemies, and more. This is actually how the move works in Smash; it brings in items (coins and mushrooms), and custom moves allow her to stun foes as well -- specifically catch and release.

Yes, I'm aware of all of this. I made those points to illustrate the fact that they are indeed invalid arguments.

Toad doesn't have a personality, because he's not an individual; he's a species.Captain Toad, however, is an individual, and has a personality.

Where do you get the impression that he's not an individual, anyway?
He's consistently in the spinoff games with the same appearance. I see no reason to believe that he isn't the same one from the classic games.

 

[Munomario777]

Again with the species argument.... we already have Yoshi in Smash... he is not an individual, he is a species.

A species with unique moveset potential, unlike Toad.

A few more responses

• Why are we excluding Captain Toad from the plucking comparison? The fact that Peach plucks just about as fast as Toad does in SMB2 (or at least, faster than she did in that game) means that fast plucking doesn't mean much in the context of Smash; everyone just plucks fast anyways, looking at Peach.
• Star bits, launch stars, and the cursor are all used by Luma in the Galaxy games. Again, the character is Rosalina & Luma.
• The cape feather only appearing in SMW is one thing. Toad being able to run up walls in one game and stopping when he hits one in every other game is another matter. The ability appears once, and is proven not to be present in every other game. A move can represent a character's game, but Toad isn't known for Wario's Woods, so I don't really feel that that would be justified.
• What I'm talking about here is gameplay-character segregation, or how gameplay mechanics often differ from what the character is supposed to be. For instance, invincibility frames are purely a gameplay mechanic. It's an attribute of the game, not the character. Similarly, the flutter jump in NSLU comes from the necessity to have every character control the same as Luigi. It's an attribute of the game that has no bearing on Toad himself. Toad lacks the flutter jump in NSMBU, but when Luigi gets it back, the Toads have to gain the ability. Toad only has it for one game because of the nature of said game.
• That was Peach's first playable appearance too; that doesn't mean that they're associated with Toad. Any character can use them, and they're only seen in that game. If it was an attribute of Toad, we would see him using these blocks throughout the series, or at least after the initial appearance. But he doesn't. You may as well say that ? blocks are an attribute of Mario (the character). They're an attribute of Mario (the game series), but not Mario (the character).
• Bombs are possessed by many characters. Different throwing arcs or visual effects won't change that.
• Toad owns the power-ups, but he never uses them. An owner of a farming-related store could own horseshoes, but he doesn't actually wear them. He only sells them.
• A Toad Kart is a kart with Toad's face on it. A Luigi Kart, then, is a name for a kart with Luigi's face on it. A kart having Toad's face slapped on doesn't make it any more unique than Bowser's standard kart.
• It's a golden mushroom. It lets you boost ahead further than a regular mushroom does, whether it be with board spaces or with boosts on the kart. They're the same thing, just different in function since the games are different in function. The golden mushroom wasn't specifically made for Toad, as other characters could use it before he could. (Toad wasn't playable in Mario Party 2, where the golden mushroom first appeared.)
• Apparently.
• Being playable isn't the only way to be important to a series. Goombas are the first enemy you encounter in the first Mario game. They teach you the basics of stomping on enemies. They are associated with power-ups in a sense -- they teach you how to use power-ups in the first place. (See the Mario Maker segment of the E3 2015 digital event if you don't know what I mean. It's actually really fascinating.)
• "Both classic and captain are both Toads, so it's not like it isn't fitting." Seems like that's what you said to me. "They're the same species, so it fits."

Well, I already provided several moves and unique mechanics (including running up walls, which has never been done in Smash before), but you've dismissed those on the basis of other characters doing it 'first'.

Running up walls is a really niche ability; not many stages have walls on the ground that he could actually run up. It's not really associated with the character either; it's only in one obscure spin-off game, and the ability is never mentioned or brought back after that obscure title.

But even if we put those aside, what about being a lightweight, speedy grappler? There isn't another Smash character like that.

How does that relate to Toad?

If you look at Sakurai's Smash Wii U/3DS project proposal slides, it is clear what sort of traits Sakurai looks for in a character. Each new character has a 'theme' that sets them apart from the rest, usually condensed into a few buzzwords: 'puppet fighter', 'sword and magic user', etc. Sakurai seems to define uniqueness as a fresh, new archetype the character could fill. Toad's could easily be 'fast, lightweight grappler'.

Again, what does that have to do with Toad?

Yes, I'm aware of all of this. I made those points to illustrate the fact that they are invalid arguments.

Well, they're not the ones that I'm making.

 

[ChikoLad]

Again with the species argument.... we already have Yoshi in Smash... he is not an individual, he is a species.

Actually, while Yoshi is a species, the original Yoshi from Super Mario World IS a distinct character:

This Yoshi is the one that generally stars in various games, such as Smash.

What is a personality?

A personality is a set of traits that define a character and how they are in general, not just in individual circumstances. Depending on how well fleshed out the personality is, characters can also have something known as "agency" - characters with agency essentially have their own clear set of beliefs, ideas, and outlooks on life, as if they were real people.

Toad doesn't have a personality as he has no defining character traits, he merely reacts to things with basic emotion. Admittedly, while most Mario characters do have a personality, they are all incredibly one note anyway (Luigi, Bowser, Wario, Rosalina, the Lumas, Captain Toad, and maybe "RPG Peach" are the only exceptions). Captain Toad on the other hand, has defined traits:

-He loves adventure and loves exploring and finding new things.

-He is fairly intelligent and is a quick thinker. Many of the situations he is thrust into require quick thinking on his part for him to make it out in one piece.

-Despite the above qualities, he is a bit lazy - in the Galaxy games, he often had the Toad Brigade do mundane things for him and he apparently didn't help them or the Lumas build the Starshroom on the Observatory. He also easily falls asleep in various areas as an idle animation in Treasure Tracker. In Treasure Tracker, it's also shown that he isn't the one to draw up maps or plan things out, the other members do that. The Captain appears to just want to explore and not wait on that to be done, even though it would be more practical to prepare himself better.

-He loves treasure, though possibly to a fault - in Treasure Tracker Book 2, he gets captured by Wingo because he was so desperate to keep the Power Star and was unwilling to just let that one go, that he attempted to pull it off Wingo. Of course, that was a bad move, since Wingo is way bigger than him and he can fly, so the Captain could never have overpowered him. He also gets whisked into the Sprixie Kingdom for a similar reason.

-He's easily frustrated and has a bit of a temper, since when he sees Wingo flying around with Toadette and the Power Star while he is resting up at a camp, he throws a tantrum. Unlike more obviously heroic characters, Captain Toad often doesn't keep his cool when faced with a situation that inconveniences him.

Just a few examples off the top of my head.

 

[fogbadge]

dont start the "the" toad thing again

 

[PixelPasta]

Sorry for the late reply!

• Why are we excluding Captain Toad from the plucking comparison? The fact that Peach plucks just about as fast as Toad does in SMB2 (or at least, faster than she did in that game) means that fast plucking doesn't mean much in the context of Smash; everyone just plucks fast anyways, looking at Peach.

You said we should separate Toad and Captain Toad in this argument, hence why I excluded him from my argument.

• Star bits, launch stars, and the cursor are all used by Luma in the Galaxy games. Again, the character is Rosalina & Luma.

Hm, correct me if I'm wrong (I don't use Rosalina much), but the Luma that Rosalina fights alongside in Smash is not the same one that was in Mario's hat during SMG (ie; the one that granted those abilities). But that's beyond the point...

• The cape feather only appearing in SMW is one thing. Toad being able to run up walls in one game and stopping when he hits one in every other game is another matter. The ability appears once, and is proven not to be present in every other game. A move can represent a character's game, but Toad isn't known for Wario's Woods, so I don't really feel that that would be justified.

I still don't see how an ability only appearing once devalues the actual move itself.
Moreover, Wario's Woods starred Toad for the first time, predating even Treasure Tracker for putting a Toad as a protagonist! That's a really big, important step for fans of any Toad, including the Captain. It's most definitely justified - it's a major part of Toad's history.

• What I'm talking about here is gameplay-character segregation, or how gameplay mechanics often differ from what the character is supposed to be. For instance, invincibility frames are purely a gameplay mechanic. It's an attribute of the game, not the character. Similarly, the flutter jump in NSLU comes from the necessity to have every character control the same as Luigi. It's an attribute of the game that has no bearing on Toad himself. Toad lacks the flutter jump in NSMBU, but when Luigi gets it back, the Toads have to gain the ability. Toad only has it for one game because of the nature of said game.

Okay, you've kind of lost me here. This still isn't a reason against Toad using the move.
I understand the reasoning as to why Toad got that ability - but he still had that ability, thus it is still valid as a move he could use. I mean, at the end of the day, isn't every single move/ability the result of the in-game engine and it's mechanics?

• That was Peach's first playable appearance too; that doesn't mean that they're associated with Toad. Any character can use them, and they're only seen in that game. If it was an attribute of Toad, we would see him using these blocks throughout the series, or at least after the initial appearance. But he doesn't. You may as well say that ? blocks are an attribute of Mario (the character). They're an attribute of Mario (the game series), but not Mario (the character).

"If it was an attribute of Toad, we would see him using these blocks throughout the series, or at least after the initial appearance."
Again, you are dismissing something on the basis that it was a one-time appearance. I'll again point you towards Mario's cape - his use of the cape does not really extend beyond SMW, but that doesn't make it any less of a viable move.

• Bombs are possessed by many characters. Different throwing arcs or visual effects won't change that.

What are you trying to argue here, though?
Of course bombs are used by many characters! I'm not denying that. But how does that relate to Toad in any way? How does that affect the fact that Toad could also use bombs in his moveset?

• Toad owns the power-ups, but he never uses them. An owner of a farming-related store could own horseshoes, but he doesn't actually wear them. He only sells them.

Sure, but it's not like Toad has never used power-ups before - look at NSMBW and SM3DW.
It isn't hard to put the two together - in one game, Toad has item boxes filled with power-ups. In other games, Toad uses power-ups. It wouldn't be breaking canon or anything to have Toad use items out of a box in Smash.

• A Toad Kart is a kart with Toad's face on it. A Luigi Kart, then, is a name for a kart with Luigi's face on it. A kart having Toad's face slapped on doesn't make it any more unique than Bowser's standard kart.

No, but "Toad Kart" is specifically a named kart in Double Dash. It isn't just the standard kart with Toad's logo on it. It was designed specifically with the Toad duo to ride.
I'm not saying it's super unique and distinct from every other kart, but it's unique to Toad. It would fit no other character as a move in Smash.

• It's a golden mushroom. It lets you boost ahead further than a regular mushroom does, whether it be with board spaces or with boosts on the kart. They're the same thing, just different in function since the games are different in function. The golden mushroom wasn't specifically made for Toad, as other characters could use it before he could. (Toad wasn't playable in Mario Party 2, where the golden mushroom first appeared.)

This is getting slightly pedantic...
The golden mushroom was Toad's special item in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!
Regardless of which game you want to argue it originated from, it is still specifically associated with Toad as a character.
Even if other characters besides Toad could use it (or an item similar to it) in Mario Party, it is still an item that Toad could use in Smash, and it would still fit.

• Being playable isn't the only way to be important to a series. Goombas are the first enemy you encounter in the first Mario game. They teach you the basics of stomping on enemies. They are associated with power-ups in a sense -- they teach you how to use power-ups in the first place. (See the Mario Maker segment of the E3 2015 digital event if you don't know what I mean. It's actually really fascinating.)

Oh I know; I wasn't trying to diss the Goombas or anything. I was just saying that unlike Toads, Goombas are not of the same 'calibre' to be playable in Smash, which I'm sure you can agree with... or maybe not, I can't tell anymore

(the Mario Maker video was very interesting indeed!)

• "Both classic and captain are both Toads, so it's not like it isn't fitting." Seems like that's what you said to me. "They're the same species, so it fits."

I was mainly trying to convey a similar idea to what Arcadenik was saying - but perhaps I didn't express my idea well enough - I mean that Toad in Smash could be an all-encompassing, inclusive character who uses elements of all Toads. Like Arcadenik said, alternate costumes can always include Captain Toad, the Brigade, and Toadette as well.
Your Mario/Rosalina rebuttal is not the same, because it isn't feasible that they would make one 'human' Mario character with all of the others as alts

Running up walls is a really niche ability; not many stages have walls on the ground that he could actually run up. It's not really associated with the character either; it's only in one obscure spin-off game, and the ability is never mentioned or brought back after that obscure title.

But it's still valid for him to use - Smash quite often references things from obscure sources. In my opinion, that should be celebrated, not dismissed.

How does that relate to Toad?

Well, Toad is fast. He has been in SMB2 all the way to SM3DW, and has a high speed stat in almost every Mario spin-off. Hence "speedy"
Toad is light - due to his small size, he is pretty much always classified as a lightweight in Mario Kart and other spin-off titles. Hence "lightweight"
And Toad is usually portrayed as being skilled at grabbing and throwing enemies - as I've said, he was the best at plucking/picking up and throwing in SMB2. Grabbing and throwing enemies was his main method of fighting in Wario's Woods. Hence "grappler"

Well, they're not the ones that I'm making.

They sort of were - I made the same arguments you used against Toad, word for word, just with the respective characters changed to fit.

 

[Munomario777]

Sorry for the late reply!


You said we should separate Toad and Captain Toad in this argument, hence why I excluded him from my argument.

I meant that as in treating them as separate entities, i.e. not combining their abilities or anything.

Hm, correct me if I'm wrong (I don't use Rosalina much), but the Luma that Rosalina fights alongside in Smash is not the same one that was in Mario's hat during SMG (ie; the one that granted those abilities). But that's beyond the point...

Technically, multiple Lumas fight with Rosalina in Smash; it's a new one each time.

I still don't see how an ability only appearing once devalues the actual move itself.

That's not really what I'm saying. I'll get into that in a minute though.

Moreover, Wario's Woods starred Toad for the first time, predating even Treasure Tracker for putting a Toad as a protagonist! That's a really big, important step for fans of any Toad, including the Captain. It's most definitely justified - it's a major part of Toad's history.

Super Mario Bros. 2 released years before Wario's Woods, so no, it's really not.

Okay, you've kind of lost me here. This still isn't a reason against Toad using the move.
I understand the reasoning as to why Toad got that ability - but he still had that ability, thus it is still valid as a move he could use. I mean, at the end of the day, isn't every single move/ability the result of the in-game engine and it's mechanics?

Yes, abilities are a result of the game's engine. However, the game's engine should also reflect the actual character. Here, it contradicts Toad's character. He doesn't flutter jump in any other game, and his schtik is that he jumps lower than the others, not higher.

"If it was an attribute of Toad, we would see him using these blocks throughout the series, or at least after the initial appearance."
Again, you are dismissing something on the basis that it was a one-time appearance. I'll again point you towards Mario's cape - his use of the cape does not really extend beyond SMW, but that doesn't make it any less of a viable move.

What are you trying to argue here, though?
Of course bombs are used by many characters! I'm not denying that. But how does that relate to Toad in any way? How does that affect the fact that Toad could also use bombs in his moveset?

But it's still valid for him to use - Smash quite often references things from obscure sources. In my opinion, that should be celebrated, not dismissed.

My point here is that Toad isn't known for these things. Wario's Woods is an obscure spin-off puzzle game. It's like using Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine as the basis for Dr. Robotnik's moveset. Toad is known for giving Mario things in shops and doing things like that, while his gameplay schtik is added speed in exchange for lower jumping. He's not known for running up walls and throwing bombs like he does in some obscure puzzle game. Smash references obscure stuff, sure, but not before the characters have something recognizable and unique to them.

Sure, but it's not like Toad has never used power-ups before - look at NSMBW and SM3DW.
It isn't hard to put the two together - in one game, Toad has item boxes filled with power-ups. In other games, Toad uses power-ups. It wouldn't be breaking canon or anything to have Toad use items out of a box in Smash.

Power-ups are Mario's thing. They're not unique to Toad, and thus they're not a reason to include Toad.

No, but "Toad Kart" is specifically a named kart in Double Dash. It isn't just the standard kart with Toad's logo on it. It was designed specifically with the Toad duo to ride.
I'm not saying it's super unique and distinct from every other kart, but it's unique to Toad. It would fit no other character as a move in Smash.

Anyone can ride the Toad Kart, ya know. Every character in Mario Kart DS has a standard kart named after them. Mario has the Standard Kart MR. DK has the Standard Kart DK. The name "Toad Kart" means nothing here, unless the Toad Kart had any special ability that other karts lacked.

This is getting slightly pedantic...
The golden mushroom was Toad's special item in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!
Regardless of which game you want to argue it originated from, it is still specifically associated with Toad as a character.
Even if other characters besides Toad could use it (or an item similar to it) in Mario Party, it is still an item that Toad could use in Smash, and it would still fit.

But the thing is, a character like Daisy could just as easily use one. It would make a bit more sense with Toad, but he's not necessary.

Oh I know; I wasn't trying to diss the Goombas or anything. I was just saying that unlike Toads, Goombas are not of the same 'calibre' to be playable in Smash, which I'm sure you can agree with... or maybe not, I can't tell anymore

Toad, as a character, I will agree with you that he's on that "level". He just doesn't have the potential for a unique moveset.

(the Mario Maker video was very interesting indeed!)

Quite!

I was mainly trying to convey a similar idea to what Arcadenik was saying - but perhaps I didn't express my idea well enough - I mean that Toad in Smash could be an all-encompassing, inclusive character who uses elements of all Toads. Like Arcadenik said, alternate costumes can always include Captain Toad, the Brigade, and Toadette as well.
Your Mario/Rosalina rebuttal is not the same, because it isn't feasible that they would make one 'human' Mario character with all of the others as alts

But they're different characters. Captain Toad hasn't used Toad stuff and doesn't have Toad's equipment, and vice-versa. It just wouldn't work well.

Well, Toad is fast. He has been in SMB2 all the way to SM3DW, and has a high speed stat in almost every Mario spin-off. Hence "speedy"
Toad is light - due to his small size, he is pretty much always classified as a lightweight in Mario Kart and other spin-off titles. Hence "lightweight"
And Toad is usually portrayed as being skilled at grabbing and throwing enemies - as I've said, he was the best at plucking/picking up and throwing in SMB2. Grabbing and throwing enemies was his main method of fighting in Wario's Woods. Hence "grappler"

That's not at all unique, though. He's beat by Sonic, Captain Falcon, etc in terms of speed. All characters can grab opponents, and Captain Falcon is particularly centered around grabbing. He's a "speedy grappler".

Characters are only chosen -- given that they're not a clone or anything -- if they have something inherently unique about them, as Sakurai puts it. Toad really doesn't. He can use power-ups, like other people can. He can run fast, like other people can. He can pick people up, like other people can. He can throw things, like other people can. Etc etc. The unique traits he does have are too obscure to base a character around.

Captain Toad, meanwhile, has a lot of uniqueness to him. He's got limited mobility, and would thus focus on keeping his distance and strategizing -- just like how he originates from a puzzle game. He'll use the environment to his advantage, perhaps even manipulating it like you do in his game. Aside from basic gameplay themes, there's also his unique props like the minecart, backpack, headlamp, variety of things to pluck from the ground, the Starshroom, etc. I just don't see how Toad is supposed to be the better choice here.

 

[YoshiandToad]

So...what do you think are the chances of Captain Toad appearing as Sm4sh DLC? What are the chances of Captain Toad appearing as a 5mash newcomer? Want to get the opinions of the fairly down to earth CT supporters.

 

[ChikoLad]

I can't speak for Smash 4 DLC as there are no official ballot results yet, and I honestly don't know what they are doing regarding non-ballot fighters at this point. I want to say Ryu isn't the last, but news has been dry.

And being honest, I don't think we'll get Smash 5 on the NX. At least not in the typical sense of the word.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I can't speak for Smash 4 DLC as there are no official ballot results yet, and I honestly don't know what they are doing regarding non-ballot fighters at this point. I want to say Ryu isn't the last, but news has been dry.

And being honest, I don't think we'll get Smash 5 on the NX. At least not in the typical sense of the word.

Well hang on there. You've peaked my curiousity with that last bit. Can you elaborate further?

 

[ChikoLad]

Typically, each Smash game is built from the ground up - new engine, all characters and animations built from scratch even if they are veterans, etc.

However, Sakurai most likely is not coming back to build another one of that scope. I know he has said that twice before, and then Brawl and Wii U/3DS happened, but I think it's for real this time. The workload just gets bigger each generation due to the standards of graphics and what not increasing. We already have reason to believe the NX will be powerful enough to run Unreal Engine 4, after all. Plus, Iwata isn't there to pull Sakurai back anymore, and Sakurai doesn't work at Nintendo, he is freelance.

While it's easy to say someone else can just take Sakurai's place, I don't think that will happen within the next generation. Being realistic, Sakurai has set his own special kind of standard with these games, one that I feel can't simply be replicated, let alone surpassed, within the next 5 years.

So, what I think Nintendo will do, is port Smash Wii U to the NX, port all of the 3DS content in too, and include all DLC, and release it as a definitive edition of Smash 4. From there, they can start adding in new content altogether, and maybe even continue doing so through DLC.

I know some people are gonna disagree with that, but in all honesty, Smash doesn't look like it can have a new game built from the ground up within the next gen, and it really doesn't need one. People care about the content of Smash more than anything, and Smash 4 facilitates adding content on to the base game already. So why not just port it over to the next system, and continue adding content? Maybe they could release the game with a substantial new mode too, like a story mode, to justify buying the game on release for those who otherwise wouldn't.

 

[Munomario777]

I agree with you that Sakurai is likely not to return this time around, but I disagree that there won't be a new game for the new system eventually. We could very well see an "Ultra Smash Bros. 4" (that'd actually be a pretty great name, haha) for the NX at launch or something to hold us over, but I'd be very surprised if a new game didn't come at some point during the system's lifecycle. There's no real reason for it not to happen -- at least, in my opinion. I will say, though, that it's rather likely that it'd be built on top of Smash 4 than being built from scratch -- keep the engine, characters, etc, but tweak everything, optimize some stuff to take advantage of the new hardware, et cetera. And add new stuff, of course.

 

[ChikoLad]

See, I still think this would be a new game. It'd simply be taking what was already built for Smash 4, and adding new stuff onto it. Enough to justify calling it a new game. Maybe throw in some new mechanics that don't take much work, like giving every character tilt and jab variations like Ryu has, making more customs, etc.

The best comparison I can make is Dissidia 012: Final Fantasy. This game was a sequel (while, story wise, it was a prequel, but you get the point) to Dissidia: Final Fantasy - except it was built on the same engine, and it literally had ALL of the content from the first game. However, it was still a full price sequel to the original - it had a bunch of new story content to go along with the old ones, it had a bunch of new characters, stages, and music pieces, and it had a bunch of new modes, costumes, and moves for old characters, etc, etc. It also added some new mechanics like assist attacks and a completely redone adventure mode system.

I never said it wouldn't be a new game, just not in the same sense as we are used to with Smash, and it won't have Sakurai on it.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Honestly I personally wouldn't have an issue with the game not being built from the ground up every single time. In fact, it's something that's always bothered me with modern gaming sequels. You don't always need to make a brand new engine every time. It's costly and to be honest not always neccesary.

We have a solid base and a pretty good balance mechanics wise so why invent the wheel for a fifth time?

 

[Kenith]

So...what do you think are the chances of Captain Toad appearing as Sm4sh DLC? What are the chances of Captain Toad appearing as a 5mash newcomer? Want to get the opinions of the fairly down to earth CT supporters.

I'm 50/50 on him as DLC, and I don't find him likely at all for the next game if he's not already in. Sadly.
To be honest, I've come to prefer normal Toad to Captain Toad recently. But I still think A Toad is a glaring omission from the roster, if not THE glaring omission.