Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[1048576]

No, once the page ends, everything we say is forgotten. I've literally repeated the Fox/Pika thing five times and still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer, yet we still have pro-ban people.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Even ever so slightly, the longer this has been debated, the more it has gone in the favor of not banning it. it was ~62% For to ~38% against when I first posted here about two weeks ago. Hopefully we will see a trend of the informed outvoting the lemmings.

 

[bobson]

Come on. Don't get grabbed as opposed to don't ever be at a disadvantage?
Not to mention MK is... MK.

When it comes down to never being at a disadvantage or never getting grabbed more than twice by a character with the best (Second-best? I think Charizard's is bigger.) non-tether grab range in the game using a character whose only non-grabbable approaches are poor to say the least, I'd say the amount of skill you have to have over your opponent to win is more in the latter case than the former. There's also the issue that using the IDC is strenuous enough that some people aren't physically capable of keeping it up for the entire match, whereas pretty much anyone who can pick up a controller can use the infinite provided they set c-stick to grab.

That's not avoiding it at all. That's avoiding losing from MK starting the IDC the second the match starts.

There's no point in using it if you're just going to stall for eight minutes into a draw. You're right, though; my wording was poor.

"Never ever get behind in %" is almost impossible, though. Not to mention that the IDC equals instant loss of the entire match the second you get behind in %.

Almost. You can still do it if you're better than your opponent, much like you can avoid being infinited if you're better than your opponent. Neither are realistically feasible in a tournament environment, though.

As opposed to infinites?

True, it works the same for infinites.

 

[XxBlackxX]

When it comes down to never being at a disadvantage or never getting grabbed more than twice by a character with the best (Second-best? I think Charizard's is bigger.) non-tether grab range in the game using a character whose only non-grabbable approaches are poor to say the least, I'd say the amount of skill you have to have over your opponent to win is more in the latter case than the former. There's also the issue that using the IDC is strenuous enough that some people aren't physically capable of keeping it up for the entire match, whereas pretty much anyone who can pick up a controller can use the infinite provided they set c-stick to grab.


There's no point in using it if you're just going to stall for eight minutes into a draw. You're right, though; my wording was poor.


Almost. You can still do it if you're better than your opponent, much like you can avoid being infinited if you're better than your opponent. Neither are realistically feasible in a tournament environment, though.


True, it works the same for infinites.

well you may be correct, here's the most important difference between IDC and infinites:
IDC is universal, it works on everyone.
infinites only work on a few characters
IDC over-centralizes around MK and the tactic itself to the point where it becomes "pick MK, tag and IDC and win"
infinites don't over-centralize anything. it's called CP'ing

 

[Yuna]

well you may be correct, here's the most important difference between IDC and infinites:
IDC is universal, it works on everyone.
infinites only work on a few characters
IDC over-centralizes around MK and the tactic itself to the point where it becomes "pick MK, tag and IDC and win"
infinites don't over-centralize anything. it's called CP'ing

Hush! That's the next round of arguments! You're too early!

 

[Lord Viper]

I made up my mind, after playing a few good King Dedede mains with playing Mario(my thrid main), Luigi, and Donkey Kong, I will say that this should not be banned. King Dedede can only chain grab you if you let him grab you, it's not like the Meta Knight glitch where he can just use it regardless of where your at. Mario and Luigi you can just Fireball spam to not get grabed, and plus he need's to hit you at least once or twice to get a good grip on grabing you if you know how to shake of it well. Also the fact that he can only infinite chain grab five characters and not ten or twenty character in the rouster. I'm not going to compare this to the Ice Climbers grab because that would be stupid.

 

[bobson]

well you may be correct, here's the most important difference between IDC and infinites:
IDC is universal, it works on everyone.
infinites only work on a few characters
IDC over-centralizes around MK and the tactic itself to the point where it becomes "pick MK, tag and IDC and win"
infinites don't over-centralize anything. it's called CP'ing

Yeah, I agree; that's why the IDC is banned and the infinites aren't. I was just pointing out that the IDC can be beaten, despite wrecking the game.

 

[adumbrodeus]

no, you can't infinite past 300, but at that percent any other one of his throws are going to kill, so yes it can be used for stalling, and if used long enough is going to kill anyway, and i NEVER said the reason i believe it should be banned was because "it's lame" thats just my opinion, read posts more closely before deciding to respond like that.

oh so MK's dimension cape is impossible to stop once its started, and an infinite grab isn't? your counterargument sucks wylde, ZACK.

Lol, haven't you noticed, it's very easy to set a discrete enforcable rule that prevents DDD's infinite from INFINTELY stalling.


MK's infinite dimensional cape, the only option I heard that actually can prevent stalling is that if MK uses it, if the game ends on time, he loses. DDD's infinite throw, just say, "dthrow at past 300%, you lose the match".

See, the potential for an infinite stall isn't really the issue, it the fact that we can't discretely and enforcably eliminate the infinite stalling potential while still allowing the tech is the issue.

Doesn't it take a while to reach that percent? And I don't think DDD has to throw them right away, so that could make each throw last longer. >_>

I'm unbiased btw. =P

Yes, but he's executing a death grab, like any other death combo, he has a right to fully execute it. Ken combo took time in melee, do you ban it because the potential exists for time to be called while you're doing it?


And no, you can't. If you stall the throw then it's not a true combo, you'll get a break-out if people are doing the magus grab break (which, btw, every Bowser, DK, Luigi, Mario, and Samus player should know and execute, the latter 3 because it makes it not a true combo, the former two because it requires DDD to be perfect).

So no, stalling the throw is a BAD idea.

 

[Yuna]

Yeah, I agree; that's why the IDC is banned and the infinites aren't. I was just pointing out that the IDC can be beaten, despite wrecking the game.

Everything in the game can be beaten by this logic. As long as you're perfect at dodging and never getting behind in the %s.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

When it comes down to never being at a disadvantage or never getting grabbed more than twice by a character with the best (Second-best? I think Charizard's is bigger.) non-tether grab range in the game using a character whose only non-grabbable approaches are poor to say the least, I'd say the amount of skill you have to have over your opponent to win is more in the latter case than the former.

A well spaced DK is actually pretty good at avoiding grabs, just not against DDD.

 

[1048576]

When it comes down to never being at a disadvantage or never getting grabbed more than twice by a character with the best (Second-best? I think Charizard's is bigger.) non-tether grab range in the game using a character whose only non-grabbable approaches are poor to say the least, I'd say the amount of skill you have to have over your opponent to win is more in the latter case than the former. There's also the issue that using the IDC is strenuous enough that some people aren't physically capable of keeping it up for the entire match, whereas pretty much anyone who can pick up a controller can use the infinite provided they set c-stick to grab.


There's no point in using it if you're just going to stall for eight minutes into a draw. You're right, though; my wording was poor.


Almost. You can still do it if you're better than your opponent, much like you can avoid being infinited if you're better than your opponent. Neither are realistically feasible in a tournament environment, though.


True, it works the same for infinites.

Okay, so what. It's still possible to not get grabbed. More importantly, Dedede's grab doesn't stall the match, forcing a win by timer.

We've established that Dedede has a huge advantage on DK. DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER ARGUMENTS? This one isn't good enough. Arbitrary line; Fox/Pika; counterpick; blah blah blah; I think it's safe to say this pro-ban argument has been shot down.

 

[bobson]

Okay, so what. It's still possible to not get grabbed. More importantly, Dedede's grab doesn't stall the match, forcing a win by timer.

Of course it's possible; beating anything is possible, but, like the IDC, it's not something feasible enough to beat that "Just don't get grabbed" is a valid argument. "Just counterpick it" is the valid argument.

And I'm anti-ban. I just like to play on both sides.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Is there a reason TO's should/will un-ban this tactic in the New York/AN regions if the tactic is officially not worthy of a ban?

Or will everything stay the same?

 

[XxBlackxX]

Is there a reason TO's should/will un-ban this tactic in the New York/AN regions if the tactic is officially not worthy of a ban?

Or will everything stay the same?

technically, yes, they should.
however, TO's DO have the right to decide their own ruleset for their tournies, so unless they want to change it, no one is gonna force them to change anything.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

technically, yes, they should.
however, TO's DO have the right to decide their own ruleset for their tournies, so unless they want to change it, no one is gonna force them to change anything.

So, it sounds like if it's not banned everything stays exactly the same.

Sounds good to me.

 

[cutter]

Thread on the same topic for AiB:

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=54342&page=1

 

[XxBlackxX]

Thread on the same topic for AiB:

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=54342&page=1

oh wow. just wow @ the scrubbiness in that thread. why did you even bother making the thread and arguing with people who believe that ANY 0-death should be banned?

 

[The_Dyne]

Just double jump and move away from sonic. his homing wont go near you, and he'll fall down.

Untrue. Sonic will bounce off the ceiling no matter what if he's against it when homing attack finishes.

 

[cutter]

oh wow. just wow @ the scrubbiness in that thread. why did you even bother making the thread and arguing with people who believe that ANY 0-death should be banned?

that's why I hate AiB.

I only made the thread to try and drill some logic into their brains. Help would be nice.

 

[XxBlackxX]

that's why I hate AiB.

I only made the thread to try and drill some logic into their brains. Help would be nice.

hehe i would but i don't have an account at AiB. lol

 

[cutter]

hehe i would but i don't have an account at AiB. lol

It's really easy to make one

 

[Yuna]

oh wow. just wow @ the scrubbiness in that thread. why did you even bother making the thread and arguing with people who believe that ANY 0-death should be banned?

It's All is Brawl. From what I hear, it's a haven for Scrubs, N00bs and any other subset of "Competitive players" who the other Competitive subsets abhor.

They believe he can infinite eight people for goodness sake! It's a haven for ignorant idiots to blabber on about issues they have no insight into.

Heck, someone once said that I've "scared off" players from SWF, players who then flocked to AiB, and that user spoke as if they were welcomed with open arms and fit right in. And if that's the case, well, that certainly says something about AiB.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

It's All is Brawl. From what I hear, it's a haven for Scrubs, N00bs and any other subset of "Competitive players" who the other Competitive subsets abhor.

They believe he can infinite eight people for goodness sake! It's a haven for ignorant idiots to blabber on about issues they have no insight into.

Heck, someone once said that I've "scared off" players from SWF, players who then flocked to AiB, and that user spoke as if they were welcomed with open arms and fit right in. And if that's the case, well, that certainly says something about AiB.

One person does not count as a "they".

Although there was a lot of information there that's just plain wrong. I can't blame them for not knowing it though; I wouldn't have thought Luigi could have been infinitied had I not been told it. But still, a lot of what was said is simply a blantant lack of knowledge on the issue in the AiB forum.

Hey Yuna, why don't you fight the AiB scrubbery like you do here?

EDIT: Wow. The "Brawl isn't melee" versus the "Learn to counterpick"

pathetic...

Brawl isn't melee, but that has nothing to do with anything, and learning to counterpick has absolutely NO berance on the tactic itself, but is rather a simple strategy for avoiding discussing the tactic. Heck, I could say "Learn to counterpick" for anything and it would be auto-win. And I could say SC3 is completely different that SC2. None of it is even remotely important to the actual discussion.

 

[RDK]

One person does not count as a "they".

Although there was a lot of information there that's just plain wrong. I can't blame them for not knowing it though; I wouldn't have thought Luigi could have been infinitied had I not been told it. But still, a lot of what was said is simply a blantant lack of knowledge on the issue in the AiB forum.

Hey Yuna, why don't you fight the AiB scrubbery like you do here?

There's a difference between simply putting up with scrubbery and actually seeking it out.

It's like attempting to purge your house of cockroaches vs. diving into the cockroach mothership.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

There's a difference between simply putting up with scrubbery and actually seeking it out.

It's like attempting to purge your house of cockroaches vs. diving into the cockroach mothership.

Well, if all the scrubs here go there, then going there should make all the scrubs flee to no where, as there is no where left to go.

 

[BrawlLover]

I just wish people would make full sentences when in an argument.

What do you mean by wavedashing?

 

[RDK]

Well, if all the scrubs here go there, then going there should make all the scrubs flee to no where, as there is no where left to go.

Doesn't it occur to you that they would just make yet another hub of scrubbery?

And I doubt they would actually leave anyway. They're fairly comfortable over there; no need to provoke the hive.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Doesn't it occur to you that they would just make yet another hub of scrubbery?

And I doubt they would actually leave anyway. They're fairly comfortable over there; no need to provoke the hive.

What's wrong with a little provocation now and again?

It makes things fun.

 

[RDK]

What's wrong with a little provocation now and again?

It makes things fun.

You provoke me enough, thank you. I don't need AiB scrubs to make me bash my face against the keyboard out of hatred for ignorance every now and then.

 

[XxBlackxX]

I just wish people would make full sentences when in an argument.

What do you mean by wavedashing?

brawllover....do i REALLY have to report you again?

i mean seriously...first of all, you don't know what WAVEDASHING means, and second of all, what the **** did your post have to do with ANYTHING in this thread >_>

 

[The Halloween Captain]

You provoke me enough, thank you. I don't need AiB scrubs to make me bash my face against the keyboard out of hatred for ignorance every now and then.

U gotta distance U'rself from it a little bit or else smbdy's always gonna make u angree.

 

[Tyser]

Brawl sucks.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Brawl sucks.

I used to think so, but I'm not so sure.

I don't like playing any one game for more than an hour at a time, so going World of Goo to LoZ TP to Super Mario Galaxy to Super Smash Bros. Brawl back to LoZ TP is usually fun. Especially if you turn the items on with your custom stages and no smash balls.

 

[Yuna]

One person does not count as a "they".

What makes you think I've never been to All Is Brawl. I've read some of their threads on "To ban and not to ban" and other things. Trust me, the intelligence level is quite low there (of course, you could very well be a member there, so you should know this already).

The people on SWF are very vocal and lack good arguments. A vast majority of pro-banners on AiB not only lack good arguments, the arguments they use are sucky, useless and inane.

Hey Yuna, why don't you fight the AiB scrubbery like you do here?

Because I have no interest in joining a forum which, according to what I've read on it, is so overrun with scrubbery it would be a losing and endless battle. It's the same reason why I don't go onto GameFAQs to argue the finer sides of Competitive gaming.

Too much stupidity and ignorance to clean up.

Brawl isn't melee, but that has nothing to do with anything, and learning to counterpick has absolutely NO berance on the tactic itself, but is rather a simple strategy for avoiding discussing the tactic.

Counterpicking is a universal necessity. Even in GGXX (the series), people counterpick. Because there are just certain match-ups where you're statistically at such a disadvantage counterpicking is a very wise choice.

Why should we eliminate DK's need to counterpick just because this match-up happens to be X notches worse than Fox vs. Pikachu due to a very arbitrary threshold that you feel like drawing?

Well, if all the scrubs here go there, then going there should make all the scrubs flee to no where, as there is no where left to go.

The Scrubs are perfectly happy enjoying their delusions of grandeur, thinking they are "teh ****". If I walk in there and try to enlighten them, they will ban together in their collective delusional ignorance and assume themselves to be right and me to be wrong.

They would back each other up, saying "You're wrong. Our arguments are sound. Yaddi yaddi yadda". I mean, why do you think ignorance is so widespread on AiB? Because very few people who know better go to there.

And those who do do not enlighten those who do not. So the ignorant populus gets a free pass on their ignorance. They never learn. And if someone tries to teach them, 100 other ignorami will appear to back them up.

"Homophobia is bad. Gay people should have the right to be adoptive parents/married/have legal protection against discrimination!" - Yeah, that's a no-brainer in Sweden. We already have all that (marriages, not so much. Domestic partnerships for the moment, but true gay marriage will be passed as a law within a year or two at the most from the looks of things).

In America, you guys had 3 states vote forth a ban against gay marriage, one state vote forth a ban on gay adoption (and that in this year alone) and tons of states opposed to laws against discrimination due to sexual orientation. And the homophobic side gets away with lies upon lies in their ads, no matter how many of the "bleeding heart liberals" try to refute them.

Stupidity breeds stupidity. Stupidity thrives among stupidity. Stupid people cling to the belief that they are right and refuse to listen when others tell them they are wrong, refuse to even listen to their reasoning before just going "No, you're wrong."

 

[1048576]

Of course it's possible; beating anything is possible, but, like the IDC, it's not something feasible enough to beat that "Just don't get grabbed" is a valid argument. "Just counterpick it" is the valid argument.

And I'm anti-ban. I just like to play on both sides.

Their argument from about four pages back (I could be way off) was that there shouldn't be any impossible matchups. DK/DeDeDe is impossible, whereas Fox/Pika is not. All I've said is that it's not impossilbe, just really hard. A little more really hard than Fox/Pika.

 

[RDK]

The people on SWF are very vocal and lack good arguments. A vast majority of pro-banners on AiB not only lack good arguments, the arguments they use are sucky, useless and inane.

TL ; DR version: AiB is like SRK for people whose balls haven't dropped yet.

 

[Yuna]

Their argument from about four pages back (I could be way off) was that there shouldn't be any impossible matchups. DK/DeDeDe is impossible, whereas Fox/Pika is not. All I've said is that it's not impossilbe, just really hard. A little more really hard than Fox/Pika.

Not to mention that they never stated where the line of "impossible" ends. I'd say Pikachu vs. Fox is quite impossible. It's so statistically improbable for Fox to win, it's pretty much impossible as far as Competitive gaming is concerned.

At least to such a degree that there is not a large enough of a difference between the DK vs. D3 match-up and the Fox vs. Pikachu match-up that we'd ever ban things to artifically change one match-up and not the other. In the eyes of Competitive gaming, both are quite "impossible" and if one warrants a ban, then s odoes the other.

TL ; DR version: AiB is like SRK for people whose balls haven't dropped yet.

I dunno. I'm pretty sure SRK's members are at least knowledgeable of many Competitive fighting games which aren't Smash. AiB is just wholly pretty ignorant as a whole. Both are full of screeching ignorami who would not be able to mold a valid argument if their life depended on it, though.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

What makes you think I've never been to All Is Brawl. I've read some of their threads on "To ban and not to ban" and other things. Trust me, the intelligence level is quite low there (of course, you could very well be a member there, so you should know this already).

The people on SWF are very vocal and lack good arguments. A vast majority of pro-banners on AiB not only lack good arguments, the arguments they use are sucky, useless and inane.


Because I have no interest in joining a forum which, according to what I've read on it, is so overrun with scrubbery it would be a losing and endless battle. It's the same reason why I don't go onto GameFAQs to argue the finer sides of Competitive gaming.

Too much stupidity and ignorance to clean up.


Counterpicking is a universal necessity. Even in GGXX (the series), people counterpick. Because there are just certain match-ups where you're statistically at such a disadvantage counterpicking is a very wise choice.

Why should we eliminate DK's need to counterpick just because this match-up happens to be X notches worse than Fox vs. Pikachu due to a very arbitrary threshold that you feel like drawing?


The Scrubs are perfectly happy enjoying their delusions of grandeur, thinking they are "teh ****". If I walk in there and try to enlighten them, they will ban together in their collective delusional ignorance and assume themselves to be right and me to be wrong.

They would back each other up, saying "You're wrong. Our arguments are sound. Yaddi yaddi yadda". I mean, why do you think ignorance is so widespread on AiB? Because very few people who know better go to there.

And those who do do not enlighten those who do not. So the ignorant populus gets a free pass on their ignorance. They never learn. And if someone tries to teach them, 100 other ignorami will appear to back them up.

"Homophobia is bad. Gay people should have the right to be adoptive parents/married/have legal protection against discrimination!" - Yeah, that's a no-brainer in Sweden. We already have all that (marriages, not so much. Domestic partnerships for the moment, but true gay marriage will be passed as a law within a year or two at the most from the looks of things).

In America, you guys had 3 states vote for a ban against gay marriage, one state vote for a ban on gay adoption and tons of states opposed to laws against discrimination due to sexual orientation. And the homophobic side gets away with lies upon lies in their ads, no matter how many of the "bleeding heart liberals" try to refute them.

Stupidity breeds stupidity. Stupidity thrives among stupidity. Stupid people cling to the belief that they are right and refuse to listen when others tell them they are wrong, refuse to even listen to their reasoning before just going "No, you're wrong."

Where to begin...

Gay adoption - it is not a simple issue in America, and when you think about it, may be even more complicated than the gay marriage issue. A ban on gay marriage is simply the repealing of a law that allowed for gay marriages. Many more states than three do not allow for homosexual partnerships.

The ability to counterpick is not really in any way relevent to the discussion. Counter-picking can still allow for overcentralization, and is not a defense OF ANYTHING. I'm not sure why you thought Pikachu and Fox have anything to do with my point about counterpicking.

I actually don't go to allisbrawl, nor do I have an account.

EDIT: What is the difference between lacking good arguments while being vocal and having sucky, useless, and inane arguments? I would think one is a polite way of saying the other under normal circumstances.

 

[XxBlackxX]

yeah, counter-picking is NOT the MAIN anti-ban argument (i dunno about over at AiB though).
the main anti-ban argument is that it doesn't over-centralize, or break the game.
counter-picking is merely the solution to the "problem" because the tactic will not be banned.

 

[RDK]

I dunno. I'm pretty sure SRK's members are at least knowledgeable of many Competitive fighting games which aren't Smash. AiB is just wholly pretty ignorant as a whole. Both are full of screeching ignorami who would not be able to mold a valid argument if their life depended on it, though.

While they know what they're doing, their knowledge of competitive fighting games ends with Smash. Apparently the transfer of concepts from Street Fighter to Brawl requires to many brain cells.

The ability to counterpick is not really in any way relevent to the discussion. Counter-picking can still allow for overcentralization, and is not a defense OF ANYTHING. I'm not sure why you thought Pikachu and Fox have anything to do with my point about counterpicking.

Counterpicking helps fix overcentralization.

Either you're just plain wrong, or I'm misunderstanding your vague argument. Go into further detail.