Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[cman]

In America, you guys had 3 states vote forth a ban against gay marriage, one state vote forth a ban on gay adoption (and that in this year alone) and tons of states opposed to laws against discrimination due to sexual orientation. And the homophobic side gets away with lies upon lies in their ads, no matter how many of the "bleeding heart liberals" try to refute them.

You just had to pull the America card... That really hurts dude. (/offtopic)

On topic, you aren't really going to teach many people anything by using the harsh tone that you do, however. Most people who aren't (this isn't a good word for it, but...) enlightened will just write you off as mean or whatever, then completely ignore what you say, so their minds will never be changed. Stupid? Surely. True? Absolutely. The method that you use will only reach a small number because of it.

I couldn't care less whether you change it or not though. You do have fantastic points, and that's what should matter.

 

[TheUmbreonMonarchy]

oh wow. just wow @ the scrubbiness in that thread. why did you even bother making the thread and arguing with people who believe that ANY 0-death should be banned?

I know, right?

I argued against it being banned on there, but they were blinded by the fact that "omgish 0-death, must be b@nn3d!!!!!11" Some people even said the IC's CG infinite should be banned. >.>

I even brought up CP'ing against D3 (characters + stages), yet they still don't understand the logic and reasoning of CP'ing.

It's sad to see the Competitive Brawl Forum on AiB overrun by a sea of stupidity with only a few lightbulbs...oh well.

 

[Yuna]

Gay adoption - it is not a simple issue in America, and when you think about it, may be even more complicated than the gay marriage issue.

Yet it isn't in many other, more enlightened countries. In America, the vicious lie that children of gay parents are more prone to things like child abuse, sexual abuse, depression or any other BS are still being spread by the haters and the populus still believe them, despite there being no scientific data to back this up (however, there's scientific data to disprove this and prove the opposite).

It's not just the religious Right stating "Gay people are bad and should not be allowed to adopt". They are trying to use arguments other than religion (because that alone would fail), wholly based on lies. And the general public just eats it up and whenever the lies are refuted, they just go "Left wing radicals!".

This is the very definition of ignorant Scrubs who do not wish to learn.

A ban on gay marriage is simply the repealing of a law that allowed for gay marriages.

Not in two of the three states that passed measures to ban it, it wasn't.

Many more states than three do not allow for homosexual partnerships.

And why is that? And why are people still allowed to on national TV compare gay marriage to incest and polygamy and claim that gay marriage would bring down the institution of marriage, be the downfall or society or whatever? And why are there millions of whackjobs out there agreeing with them?

Ignorance and stupidity, that's what.

The ability to counterpick is not really in any way relevent to the discussion.

Pray tell, why not?

Counter-picking can still allow for overcentralization, and is not a defense OF ANYTHING.

This is this and that is that. Counter-picking can allow for over-centralization. It doesn't. D3 does not destroy a vast majority of the cast. You can counterpick plenty of characters against him. So the option to counter-pick against him does not result in over-centralization at all.

Where is the logic here? "It can be bad, thus we must ban!"? Hey, cars kill people. I mean, have you ever heard of someone dying because one person ran them over on foot? Let's ban all vehicles from out roads!

I'm not sure why you thought Pikachu and Fox have anything to do with my point about counterpicking.

Because you are arguing that counter-picking is irrelevant and that D3's infinite should be banned for rendering the match-up so unwinnable DK would have to counterpick to win. I argue the situation is the same for Pikachu vs. Fox.

I actually don't go to allisbrawl, nor do I have an account.

Well lucky you.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

yeah, counter-picking is NOT the MAIN anti-ban argument (i dunno about over at AiB though).
the main anti-ban argument is that it doesn't over-centralize, or break the game.
counter-picking is merely the solution to the "problem" because the tactic will not be banned.

On AiB, it is.

While they know what they're doing, their knowledge of competitive fighting games ends with Smash. Apparently the transfer of concepts from Street Fighter to Brawl requires to many brain cells.



Counterpicking helps fix overcentralization.

Either you're just plain wrong, or I'm misunderstanding your vague argument. Go into further detail.

Saske, Chogi, Rock Lee

Just counterpick those characters against eachother

I am well aware that they overcentralize their Naruto game, but saying "just counterpick" actually neither adds nor subtracts from the discussion. It does nothing. It has nothing to do with the "centalization" the characters force on the game.

 

[Yuna]

You just had to pull the America card... That really hurts dude. (/offtopic)

On topic, you aren't really going to teach many people anything by using the harsh tone that you do, however. Most people who aren't (this isn't a good word for it, but...) enlightened will just write you off as mean or whatever, then completely ignore what you say, so their minds will never be changed. Stupid? Surely. True? Absolutely. The method that you use will only reach a small number because of it.

I couldn't care less whether you change it or not though. You do have fantastic points, and that's what should matter.

The thing is that I tried being nice. Back when Brawl was first released, I was nice for months. I made all of my "fantastic points" (and I quote them here only for emphasis) just as usual, only more "nicely".

Guess what, it didn't help, at all. In fact, I was wholly ignored a lot of the times. It's a classic tactic. Run into arguments you cannot refute? Ignore the poster entirely. I had to battle certain users for pages upon pages (once debate raged for 20+ pages) being "nice" to them and not once saying anything remotely like a "flame" and the stupidity kept on coming.

See, stupidity is deep rooted. It will take years of conditioning to get rid of.

Which is why I save my "attitude" only for those I feel deserve it. My tone is generally acerbic, harsh, sarcastic and snarky, but that's not mean, flaming or "bad". That's just acerbic, harsh, sarcastic and snarky. It's only when someone says stupid **** that I bring out the big guns.

Unfortunately, I've had to do it increasingly more often as of late, so people think that all of my posts are "mean".

 

[Yuna]

Saske, Chogi, Rock Lee

Just counterpick those characters against eachother

I am well aware that they overcentralize their Naruto game, but saying "just counterpick" actually neither adds nor subtracts from the discussion. It does nothing. It has nothing to do with the "centalization" the characters force on the game.

I'm sorry, are you talking about Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4? Because Chouji and Rock Lee are both low tiers (with Chouji being pretty ****ty) and Sasuke is a Mid Tier (I think).

They in no way over-centralize the game because they aren't that good and no one would use them as some kind of Ace Counterpick. In fact, there's no such thing as a Sasuke, Chouji, Rock Lee counterpicking triangle where people counterpick them against each other.

Not when Kyuukyokyuu Naruto, Itachi, Kisame, Temari, Neji, Kankurou, Orochimaru, Awakened Hinata and several others are just that much better. In fact, the NGNT4 metagame is over-centralized around 4 characters, none of which are Sasuke, Chouji and Rock Lee.

If you're talking about Naruto: Narutimate Hero, then pick which one. And even if you are, you're still way off. I've never heardof any of those three being Top Tier-level characters or in some kind of counterpicking triangle.

Tell me, are you speaking purely out of your behind again? Or did you actually read something somewhere which made you think this?

 

[cman]

The thing is that I tried being nice. Back when Brawl was first released, I was nice for months. I made all of my "fantastic points" (and I quote them here only for emphasis) just as usual, only more "nicely".

Guess what, it didn't help, at all. In fact, I was wholly ignored a lot of the times. It's a classic tactic. Run into arguments you cannot refute? Ignore the poster entirely. I had to battle certain users for pages upon pages (once debate raged for 20+ pages) being "nice" to them and not once saying anything remotely like a "flame" and the stupidity kept on coming.

See, stupidity is deep rooted. It will take years of conditioning to get rid of.

Which is why I save my "attitude" only for those I feel deserve it. My tone is generally acerbic, harsh, sarcastic and snarky, but that's not mean, flaming or "bad". That's just acerbic, harsh, sarcastic and snarky. It's only when someone says stupid **** that I bring out the big guns.

Unfortunately, I've had to do it increasingly more often as of late, so people think that all of my posts are "mean".

Anyone with thin skin and a weak mind will see the acerbic, harsh, sarcastic and snarky post as an attack on themselves, and proceed to ignore you though, haha. So, to recap; "nice" gets you ignored by the people who need to listen, and "mean" gets you ignored by the people who need to listen. That's a fun position. Or it means that you only really post for the people watching who aren't stupid.

You should go to the debate hall, though admittedly, at the moment, the topics are rather bland.

 

[mariofanpm12]

It could help several those 5 characters a bit, but King Dedede's tier position could MAYBE drop by 1 spot.

 

[Barge]

"Homophobia is bad. Gay people should have the right to be adoptive parents/married/have legal protection against discrimination!" - Yeah, that's a no-brainer in Sweden. We already have all that (marriages, not so much. Domestic partnerships for the moment, but true gay marriage will be passed as a law within a year or two at the most from the looks of things).

In America, you guys had 3 states vote forth a ban against gay marriage, one state vote forth a ban on gay adoption (and that in this year alone) and tons of states opposed to laws against discrimination due to sexual orientation. And the homophobic side gets away with lies upon lies in their ads, no matter how many of the "bleeding heart liberals" try to refute them.

Stupidity breeds stupidity. Stupidity thrives among stupidity. Stupid people cling to the belief that they are right and refuse to listen when others tell them they are wrong, refuse to even listen to their reasoning before just going "No, you're wrong."

That's because the "bible says" marriage should only be between a man and a woman.

However they're trying to take the word "god" out from the pledge.
It just doesn't make sense to me.

Offtopic: You're messing with smashforums ad's, lolz
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x57/BargeM/safas.jpg

 

[RDK]

Anyone with thin skin and a weak mind will see the acerbic, harsh, sarcastic and snarky post as an attack on themselves, and proceed to ignore you though, haha. So, to recap; "nice" gets you ignored by the people who need to listen, and "mean" gets you ignored by the people who need to listen. That's a fun position. Or it means that you only really post for the people watching who aren't stupid.

You should go to the debate hall, though admittedly at the moment the topics are rather bland.

Think of it like this: people who take your attempts to educate them as personal attacks aren't worth converting anyway.

And it's just inactivity; fortunately we're revamping the member list and the application process so there will be more activity in the near future.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I'm sorry, are you talking about Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4? Because Chouji and Rock Lee are both low tiers (with Chouji being pretty ****ty) and Sasuke is a Mid Tier (I think).

They in no way over-centralize the game because they aren't that good and no one would use them as some kind of Ace Counterpick. In fact, there's no such thing as a Sasuke, Chouji, Rock Lee counterpicking triangle where people counterpick them against each other.

Not when Kyuukyokyuu Naruto, Itachi, Kisame, Temari, Neji, Kankurou, Orochimaru, Awakened Hinata and several others are just that much better. In fact, the NGNT4 metagame is over-centralized around 4 characters, none of which are Sasuke, Chouji and Rock Lee.

If you're talking about Naruto: Narutimate Hero, then pick which one. And even if you are, you're still way off. I've never heardof any of those three being Top Tier-level characters or in some kind of counterpicking triangle.

Tell me, are you speaking purely out of your behind again? Or did you actually read something somewhere which made you think this?

IDK, I don't play the game. However, I recall the three each had a move banned which was unsafe on block for every character. EDIT: I actually read that in this thread. Admittedly, I know WAY to many things that I lack the ability to cite.

 

[XxBlackxX]

It could help several those 5 characters a bit, but King Dedede's tier position could MAYBE drop by 1 spot.

*sighs*

but i guess there will always be these kind of arguments, eh?

 

[Yuna]

Or it means that you only really post for the people watching who aren't stupid.

Yes, my posts are largely for the people who aren't stupid. Those who aren't will be able to see the truth in my posts and not swallow the lies and inaccuracies of those who are stupid. They will say "Hey, I don't like Yuna's tone, but what he says makes sense. Maybe I shouldn't support this ban/whatever."

Also, people who cannot see the reason behind arguments because the poster is maybe being a bit sarcastic with them aren't worth converting. They are obviously of at least the quasi-stupid kind.

"Refute one man and teach him to be less stupid and you will have one less ****tard to deal with. Use that man to show 100 people how stupid his opinions and positions are, thus getting them to either switch from their current positions or at least not join him in his and you will have ridded the world of 100 potential ****tards." - Yuna, 2008

You should go to the debate hall, though admittedly, at the moment, the topics are rather bland.

I was a member. Then I didn't post for, like, two years. Just this month or at least very recently, my membership was revoked. I found out, like, a week ago.

 

[Yuna]

IDK, I don't play the game. However, I recall the three each had a move banned which was unsafe on block for every character. EDIT: I actually read that in this thread. Admittedly, I know WAY to many things that I lack the ability to cite.

So you took the words of some random idiots and took absolutely no time to verify what they say before spouting it as if it were fact. Are you aware of that that's what stupid people do and that is how ignorance and lies are spread?

None of them have anything banned. None. In fact, there isn't a single move in NGNT4 that is banned. There's only a character which is banned (Akamaru). There are certain moves which are banned if they achieve certain glitchy results (you can use them, but if the glitches occur, you either lose the round by default (camera freeze) or you have to move immediately (invincibility glitch)).

And neither of those three characters possess any of the banned glitches.

You do realize that this is something that is very common for you to do? Taking the words of random nobodies who spout something as a fact, assuming they are right and repeating the same BS as fact without taking any time to verify it.

I'd also like a quote of this post. If you saw it and still remember it, it must be pretty recent. I want the name of the poster so I can PM him and ask what he meant and why he thinks the stuff he said is true. That or you just misremembered things.

 

[Yuna]

That's because the "bible says" marriage should only be between a man and a woman.

Your religion does not govern the world. Why should your religion govern the lives of those who do not share your religion? What abut the non-Christians? Heck, what about the Christians who do not share your interpretation of the Bible.

Also, I would like you to quote the passage(s) where it is actual stated, indicated or even implied that God (or any of his prophets) think that marriage should only be between a man and a woman.

Heck, I'd like to just hear a quote, period, of a passage that implies that, no matter who said it.

However they're trying to take the word "god" out from the pledge.
It just doesn't make sense to me.

Because of the pledge of allegiance is not a pledge of religion. Why should those who do not share your religion have to recite it with the word "God" or hear it recited, when they do not believe in your God?

And dammit, accidentally triple post. You guys are slow!

 

[Barge]

Your religion does not govern the world. Why should your religion govern the lives of those who do not share your religion? What abut the non-Christians? Heck, what about the Christians who do not share your interpretation of the Bible.

Also, I would like you to quote the passage(s) where it is actual stated, indicated or even implied that God (or any of his prophets) think that marriage should only be between a man and a woman.

Heck, I'd like to just hear a quote, period, of a passage that implies that, no matter who said it.


Because of the pledge of allegiance is not a pledge of religion. Why should those who do not share your religion have to recite it with the word "God" or hear it recited, when they do not believe in your God?

I don't agree with the bible, nor am I christian. America was governed around the christian religion, so apparently thats what goes.
I don't agree with it either >_>

 

[-Wolfy-]

I agree with Yuna's sentiment 100%.

I also think the discussion should return to the topic at hand.

We're on the right path to having the thread closed.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

So you took the words of some random idiots and took absolutely no time to verify what they say before spouting it as if it were fact. Are you aware of that that's what stupid people do and that is how ignorance and lies are spread?

None of them have anything banned. None. In fact, there isn't a single move in NGNT4 that is banned. There's only a character which is banned (Akamaru). There are certain moves which are banned if they achieve certain glitchy results (you can use them, but if the glitches occur, you either lose the round by default (camera freeze) or you have to move immediately (invincibility glitch)).

And neither of those three characters possess any of the banned glitches.

You do realize that this is something that is very common for you to do? Taking the words of random nobodies who spout something as a fact, assuming they are right and repeating the same BS as fact without taking any time to verify it.

I'd also like a quote of this post. If you saw it and still remember it, it must be pretty recent. I want the name of the poster so I can PM him and ask what he meant and why he thinks the stuff he said is true. That or you just misremembered things.

Yuna, you seriously underestimate my memory and overestimate my drive to argue.

Something about fireballs for Sasuke, and the giant cannonball attack for Choji. It was compared to another attack of Choji's which wasn't bannable, something involving Choji using giant hands, and how the game would have been limited to just those three characters Had their three attacks been kept. It must have been a really old anti-ban argument, which I shouldn't have assumed anybody would remember.

Soryy, my memory is extremely long, and after five pages of searching my history I don't think I even got close.

 

[Yuna]

I don't agree with the bible, nor am I christian. America was governed around the christian religion, so apparently thats what goes.
I don't agree with it either >_>

Then you agree that the reasoning used by the Christian Right is idiotic, which was actually my entire point? Stupidity breeds stupidity. Stupid people do not question stupid statements if they agree with them. Because they cannot see that they are wrong and convincing them they are wrong is almost impossible.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Yuna, you seriously underestimate my memory and overestimate my drive to argue.

Something about fireballs for Sasuke, and the giant cannonball attack for Choji. It was compared to another attack of Choji's which wasn't bannable, something involving Choji using giant hands, and how the game would have been limited to just those three characters Had their three attacks been kept. It must have been a really old anti-ban argument, which I shouldn't have assumed anybody would remember.

Soryy, my memory is extremely long, and after five pages of searching my history I don't think I even got close.

The Halloween Captain has the memory of.....

An Elephant.

Okay, I'm done not contributing.

 

[Yuna]

We're on the right path to having the thread closed.

Seeing as how all we're doing is repeating ourselves at this point, maybe that would be a good idea.

Yuna, you seriously underestimate my memory and overestimate my drive to argue.

Why shouldn't I when you so often misremember things (you know this is true)?

Something about fireballs for Sasuke, and the giant cannonball attack for Choji. It was compared to another attack of Choji's which wasn't bannable, something involving Choji using giant hands, and how the game would have been limited to just those three characters Had their three attacks been kept.

The funny thing is that as far as I know, not a single one of the Naruto fighting games have had Sasuke, Chouji or Rock Lee up for a ban of any kind because they have never been that good, neither as a whole or with single moves.

Sasuke's Giant Fireball is possibly CS2 Sasuke's Giant Fireball which, if two collide (meaning both players are using him), will lag the game. However, this is not technically banned nor would it ever over-centralize the game (NGNT4). It's not even good as it is blockable, does almost no chip damage, costs 100% chakr and cannot be comboed into (well, I think there might be one very situational combo, but it's not even good. Plenty of better combos exist).

AFAIK, NGNT4 is the only game in which Sasuke has a Giant Fireball (unless it's one of the Narutimate Hero games, but it's not banned there either).

Chouji's Meatball Tank is his X and Down X, neither move "too good". He doesn't even have Giant Hands in that game, so this is quite possibly some other game.

However, Sasuke, Chouji and Rock Lee, with all moves and specials intact, have never been up for a ban, as far as I know, in any GNT or NH game, ever! With all of their moves and specials intact, most of the time, they're Mid and High Tier at most!

Just admit it. This was just another case of you assuming some no-name user spewing something you didn't even bother to verify was 100% irrefutable fact and then went on to regurgitate it as if it were 100% irrefutable fact.

Don't do this. This is how stupidity is spread. Something stupid is said, people assume it's a fact and spread it and suddenly, it becomes a "fact". This why debates are tainted. Less knowledgeable people assume something they hear which supports their argument must be true and a fact, neglect to fact check and spread the lies, further spreading the stupidity and ignorance.

If you have no insight into Competitive Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4, don't argue it.

 

[SkylerOcon]

The pro-ban side has been debating so terribly that I'm now anti-ban. Just admit it guys, you've lost.

 

[The_Dyne]

Your religion does not govern the world. Why should your religion govern the lives of those who do not share your religion? What abut the non-Christians? Heck, what about the Christians who do not share your interpretation of the Bible.

Also, I would like you to quote the passage(s) where it is actual stated, indicated or even implied that God (or any of his prophets) think that marriage should only be between a man and a woman.

Heck, I'd like to just hear a quote, period, of a passage that implies that, no matter who said it.


Because of the pledge of allegiance is not a pledge of religion. Why should those who do not share your religion have to recite it with the word "God" or hear it recited, when they do not believe in your God?

And dammit, accidentally triple post. You guys are slow!

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:13

Would it be too much to ask to have an unbiased summary of both sides of the chaingrab argument?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Seeing as how all we're doing is repeating ourselves at this point, maybe that would be a good idea.


Why shouldn't I when you so often misremember things (you know this is true)?


The funny thing is that as far as I know, not a single one of the Naruto fighting games have had Sasuke, Chouji or Rock Lee up for a ban of any kind because they have never been that good, neither as a whole or with single moves.

Sasuke's Giant Fireball is possibly CS2 Sasuke's Giant Fireball which, if two collide (meaning both players are using him), will lag the game. However, this is not technically banned nor would it ever over-centralize the game (NGNT4). It's not even good as it is blockable, does almost no chip damage, costs 100% chakr and cannot be comboed into (well, I think there might be one very situational combo, but it's not even good. Plenty of better combos exist).

AFAIK, NGNT4 is the only game in which Sasuke has a Giant Fireball (unless it's one of the Narutimate Hero games, but it's not banned there either).

Chouji's Meatball Tank is his X and Down X, neither move "too good". He doesn't even have Giant Hands in that game, so this is quite possibly some other game.

However, Sasuke, Chouji and Rock Lee, with all moves and specials intact, have never been up for a ban, as far as I know, in any GNT or NH game, ever! With all of their moves and specials intact, most of the time, they're Mid and High Tier at most!

Just admit it. This was just another case of you assuming some no-name user spewing something you didn't even bother to verify was 100% irrefutable fact and then went on to regurgitate it as if it were 100% irrefutable fact.

Don't do this. This is how stupidity is spread. Something stupid is said, people assume it's a fact and spread it and suddenly, it becomes a "fact". This why debates are tainted. Less knowledgeable people assume something they hear which supports their argument must be true and a fact, neglect to fact check and spread the lies, further spreading the stupidity and ignorance.

If you have no insight into Competitive Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4, don't argue it.

First, it was three moves (not characters) which were banned. Second, the fireballs weren't all that big, and it was a game in which Choji had a giant hand attack and a meatball attack, as far as I could tell. Third, I apologize. I won't go further into this.

 

[Halaster]

That's because the "bible says" marriage should only be between a man and a woman.

However they're trying to take the word "god" out from the pledge.
It just doesn't make sense to me.

Offtopic: You're messing with smashforums ad's, lolz
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x57/BargeM/safas.jpg

Two different groups doing two different things. The fundamentalist opposition to homosexual marriage comes from Leviticus 18:22 because it deems homosexuality itself as an intolerable thing...
'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'
Since you wanted the actual verse, Yuna, there it is... for better or worse. It is implied because they believe homosexuality itself to be evil, and marriage to be "sacred."

The groups trying to remove the word "God" from the Pledge of Allegiance believe that the focus upon God creates religious inequality and believe in the separation of church and state.

I would love to add something more on topic, unfortunately I have no arguments thought up that could contribute to either side and haven't read all 200 something pages...
I guess that I can see both sides of the argument, but I am slightly more pro-ban because I liked the whole "patching" logic.

Maybe I've just spent too long as a PC gamer where patches are released regularly to address issues of balance and whatnot, so I believe that if something makes matchups more equal and increases the viability characters in question slightly, I'm generally for it. Especially when leaving it in means that the characters will get absolutely slaughtered. The 5 grab limit appealed to me because that means that D3 grabbing still is worthwhile, but isn't a complete matchbreaker on its own.

Edit: I suppose I should rephrase the last part slightly, with something as clearly matchbreaking as D3's infinites I am for banning it as I've mentioned. I admit if we went around trying to patch everything via bans we would have no game left to play, but there are some issues that I believe should be addressed.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Not all of the "commandments" set forth in Leviticus are followed to the letter. It fuels the banning of gay marriage just as much as it fuels the banning of ham.

It's absolutely disgusting how people twist their faith to meet their own ends, sate their own insecurities.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

If we want to get into technicalities, the Catholic Church will provide an annulment because your spouse doesn't want children. The desire to have a family is a religious requirement of marriage.

We should really talk about how much D3's infinite is stupid and unbannable, but if it's time for the thread to die, that's fine with me.

D3's infinite is stupid and unbannable. Discuss.

 

[The_Dyne]

Very stupid, just as unbannable. What is the fundamental pro-ban argument?

First, it was three moves (not characters) which were banned. Second, the fireballs weren't all that big, and it was a game in which Choji had a giant hand attack and a meatball attack, as far as I could tell. Third, I apologize. I won't go further into this.

I think that this is Naruto Ultimate Ninja: Storm or something of that nature...

 

[-Wolfy-]

I think there have been no legitimate breakthroughs in the matter in a very long time.

Rather, there have been rewordings as such to make things more understandable for the uninformed.

I vote closed thread and the SBR makes a move on this soon.

 

[XxBlackxX]

If we want to get into technicalities, the Catholic Church will provide an annulment because your spouse doesn't want children. The desire to have a family is a religious requirement of marriage.

We should really talk about how much D3's infinite is stupid and unbannable, but if it's time for the thread to die, that's fine with me.

D3's infinite is stupid and unbannable. Discuss.

well...all we have to do is wait until jan. 5th, when the new "recommended ruleset" from SBR comes out. when we have a "official" verdict im sure this will die just like how MK's ban discussion died after there was a verdict.

but as for further debating....im pretty sure all the statements form both sides have been stated.

 

[Halaster]

Very stupid, just as unbannable. What is the fundamental pro-ban argument?

ANTI BAN:
I believe that the fundamental idea of the anti-ban(oops) argument is that because it only applies to a small portion of the total number of matchups and that it was in the game and cannot be fixed within the game itself, it should stay in the game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is the basic logic.
Edit (Clarification): It is permissible to leave the infinite in the game because it doesn't over-centralize the game (Not everyone is going to be using D3 all the time) and it only applies to a very limited number of matchups within the game. It would be acceptable to ban it if D3's infinite had a greater impact on more characters rather than just the ones it currently effects.

Edit: I fail


PRO BAN:
Because it outright breaks these individual matchups and can be addressed by adding a limit (such as 5 in one chain) it would increase the balance in the game to an extent to ban the infinite should be replaced by the limit.

Forgive me, these are shallow, but I believe these are the basics.

 

[The_Dyne]

I believe that the fundamental idea of the pro-ban argument is that because it only applies to a small portion of the total number of matchups and that it was in the game and cannot be fixed within the game itself, it should stay in the game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is the basic logic.

I think that's anti-ban, but thanks for the effort.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Why do we need an official recommended ruleset, anyway? The regions are taking care of themselves fine, and when a TO's ticked, they ban something. All in all, the current situation is ideal, as it is the most organic way for the metagame to develop - one step at a time, with the TO's deciding region by region what they do or don't want in their metagame.

 

[Halaster]

I think that's anti-ban, but thanks for the effort.

Yeah, I misread that... My bad.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Why do we need an official recommended ruleset, anyway? The regions are taking care of themselves fine, and when a TO's ticked, they ban something. All in all, the current situation is ideal, as it is the most organic way for the metagame to develop - one step at a time, with the TO's deciding region by region what they do or don't want in their metagame.

kinda true, but while some TO's chose to ban, many others chose to follow it. it IS just what it states: recommended.

@halaster

the anti-ban's argument is NOT that if it's in the game, we can't fix it.
thing is, we can. BUT IF AND ONLY IF the thing warrants a ban.
the infinites don't. because they don't over-centralize or break the metagame.

 

[-Wolfy-]

well summed up.

and although I wanted to get back on topic, i wish someone responded to my refuting the validity of the "it's in the bible" argument.

and conflicting rulesets amongst tournament operators is not ideal, but it's not the worst thing imaginable. Which is okay I guess for being 1 year into the "competitive" lifetime of brawl.

 

[Yuna]

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:13

Is not, in any way, an argument that marriage is between a man and a woman. This is the argument.

If you're going to go by this, there should be a constitutional amendment making it legal to slay people who dare sleep with people of the same sex. Not to mention that absolutely no mention of lesbianism is made, so lesbian marriage should at least be legal.

It's all "if a male lies with another male", nothing about females.

Do you want to know what else Leviticus says?
* "If there is a man who lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death; they have committed incest"
* "If there is a man who lies with his father's wife (and by this I assume they mean someone who is not your biological mother), he has uncovered his father's nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death, their bloodguiltiness is upon them."
* "If there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother, his bloodguiltiness is upon him."
* "If there is a man who marries a woman and her mother, it is immorality; both he and they shall be burned with fire, so that there will be no immorality in your midst." (I'm assuming this isn't just polygamy, although that was A-OK with the Bible)
* "If there is a man who takes his sister, his father's daughter or his mother's daughter, so that he sees her nakedness and she sees his nakedness, it is a disgrace; and they shall be cut off in the sight of the sons of their people. He has uncovered his sister's nakedness; he bears his guilt." (Apparently, just seeing your opposite-sex siblings naked should be illegal)
* "If there is a man who lies with a menstruous woman and uncovers her nakedness, he has laid bare her flow, and she has exposed the flow of her blood; thus both of them shall be cut off from among their people." (outlaw sex during menstruation. NOW!)
* "Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.'" (yet it's not illegal to be a medium and there's currently a show called "Medium" on the air (currently on hiatus having finished its latest season)
* "They shall not make any baldness on their heads, nor shave off the edges of their beards, nor make any cuts in their flesh."
* "They shall not take a woman who is profaned by harlotry, nor shall they take a woman divorced from her husband; for he is holy to his God."
* "[Priests cannot marry] a widow, or a divorced woman, or one who is profaned by harlotry, these he may not take; but rather he is to marry a virgin of his own people"
* Random babbling against discrimination against people of physical "defects"

Tell me, why are you allowed to pick and choose which parts of Leviticus to claim as God's words that must be followed and which parts can be disregarded as either pure BS or outdated and since "refuted" by things such as a Jesus' teachings?

Would it be too much to ask to have an unbiased summary of both sides of the chaingrab argument?

I am quite unbiased. Unless by unbiased you mean somehow who has made no ties whatsoever to either side of the argument, currently either having not made up their mind or, somehow, being neutral on the issue (despite it not being an issue you can enter a debate in and stay neutral bout)

Why do we need an official recommended ruleset, anyway? The regions are taking care of themselves fine, and when a TO's ticked, they ban something. All in all, the current situation is ideal, as it is the most organic way for the metagame to develop - one step at a time, with the TO's deciding region by region what they do or don't want in their metagame.

Because it would be a ***** with national tournaments and for those who travel for tournaments to have to deal with a jillion confliction rulesets. Also, the recommended ruleset is the one deemed optimal.

Many people agree and therefore use it.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

kinda true, but while some TO's chose to ban, many others chose to follow it. it IS just what it states: recommended.

@halaster

the anti-ban's argument is NOT that if it's in the game, we can't fix it.
thing is, we can. BUT IF AND ONLY IF the thing warrants a ban.
the infinites don't. because they don't over-centralize or break the metagame.

And because this is the absolute standard, it is up to the Tournament Organizers, or the TO's, to decide if something that doesn't qualify under this absolute minimum standard is too broken for them. A recomended ruleset is the minimum required for a tournament to not be considered scrubby typically. So game-breaking things are banned, and everything else is left to the TO's to decide. Ultimately, while they are above the minimum ruleset, they cannot include things that are banned and remain respected, only ban things which are included. Thus, there is near universal agreement that stages with walls are bannable because of overcentralizing infinites, in spite of a lack of testing in Brawl.

In the interest of leaving the metagame as open as possible to developement, the minimum number of tactics should be officially banned, but tourneys themselves can be ban-central, so as to develop the metagame in the most optimal way.

Hence, ideally nothing should be "unbannable," and no comment on this should be made when the official ruleset is made, so that it may be banned or left as the TO's see fit.

 

[-Wolfy-]

I find the picking and choosing to be crazy. I mean seriously. HAM?!

 

[Yuna]

The pro-ban side has been debating so terribly that I'm now anti-ban. Just admit it guys, you've lost.

Did you just switch sides not because the anti-ban side was brilliant in their arguing we convinced you to join our side, but because the pro-ban side was just so inane you were ashamed of it?

I think that this is Naruto Ultimate Ninja: Storm or something of that nature...

The very newest in the Ultimate-series of games. I still say it's a bunch of BS. For one thing, I don't think Sasuke has a Giant Fireball Move in that game.

If we want to get into technicalities, the Catholic Church will provide an annulment because your spouse doesn't want children. The desire to have a family is a religious requirement of marriage.

For Catholic marriage. A denomination which only 25% of the American populus holds. Why should they govern the lives of all Americans?

We should really talk about how much D3's infinite is stupid and unbannable, but if it's time for the thread to die, that's fine with me.

D3's infinite is stupid and unbannable. Discuss.

Is that you quite possibly switching sides?

First, it was three moves (not characters) which were banned. Second, the fireballs weren't all that big, and it was a game in which Choji had a giant hand attack and a meatball attack, as far as I could tell. Third, I apologize. I won't go further into this.

I know very well you did not say "characters". I said that even with all of their moves intact, they were never anywhere near so good they'd have to ban anything. Not to mention how stupid it is to ban single moves.