Should Custom Mii's Be Seprated From Fighter Customs?

[Pazx]

Wait. How is making the Mii Fighters use their default movesets in custom-move-prohibiting tournaments hoop-jumping when the opposing side twists the meaning of what a custom move is in order to bypass that rule and give them an advantage under the pretense that it is "fair" for them? As I said before, whether the 1111 moveset is good or bad does not matter. There are many characters that would benefit from having a certain custom move, but that doesn't matter in tournaments that are supposed to prohibit those.

Mii Fighters don't have default movesets.

 

[LimitCrown]

Mii Fighters don't have default movesets.

Yes, they do. It only seems that people are outright denying that they have default movesets.

 

[Woohoo982]

Something tells me you don't actually play Mii Brawler.

something tells me YOU don't play Mii Brawler.
I play him sometimes. He's bad, but i can make him work.

 

[Doruge]

Yes, they do. It only seems that people are outright denying that they have default movesets.

When you create a Mii, you have to instantly choose their moveset. The only reason they start out with 1111 in the move selection screen, is because the number 1 comes before the numbers 2 and 3. And these numbers were all arbitrarily assigned to each move, making the number itself inconsequential. Forcing them into one specific moveset just because the game randomly decided to name that moveset "1111" is utterly ridiculous. You cannot compare Miis to Palutena because the game actually DOES force her into 1111 when you turn customs off.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I don't see Sonic as a legitimate part of the cast. We should ban him in customs-off tournaments because I perceive him to be a "For Fun" bonus feature added to the cast.

Seriously, get a better argument. We don't base rulesets off of what's allowed on For Glory.

We don't base the rulesets off of what you think, either. Which is good in my eyes, because Miis are ridiculous. Frankly, we don't base rulesets off of much.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

My issue with allowing custom Mii Fighters revolves around the fact that Mii Brawler's custom Up Bs are really kinda absurd. I'm open to allowing custom Miis if Mii Brawler custom Up Bs are banned, if not I'd rather see all default (which is simpler anyways).

Sure, so long as we ban Zero Suit Samus while we're at it. Her helicopter kick can kill about as fast as Brawler's, and she has ways to kill sooner than he does.

No, I don't seriously expect us to ban ZSS. I'm just pointing out that there are characters capable of doing Brawler's little early kills trick even better than Brawler.

Beyond this, I am going to present an argument in favor of free design for Miis in tournaments.

Simply put, limiting the Miis to 1111 makes no sense because there is no indication those are the true 'default moves.' Bear in mind the Mii's entire purpose is 'create your own character.' When you try 1111 loadouts on the Miis, you quickly see that 1111 is not even a coherent movelist on some of them.

Brawler suddenly can't kill well and has no viable recovery. All he gets out of it is an unimpressive projectile that does not compliment how he should be fighting to begin with. Brawler goes from being a threat, to having to fish for random f-smash kills because everything else he does is not much of a threat since he has no real mix-up without threatening air kill combos off a grab.

Swordfighter likewise loses a lot of recovery, as Stone Scabbard is very vulnerable and Aerial Assault can simply be 'body blocked' much like Ike's side-B in Brawl could be. Not quite as effectively as in Brawl Ike's case, but it is do-able. Likewise he finds himself limited to a close range projectile and close range counter, gutting the versatility that is supposed to be the point of the character. In combination, these 'default moves' present a game plan that is hard for even the Swordfighter player to discern; it's not clear how he should safely recover, it's not clear how he fights at long range.

Gunner is the only one that makes any sense with 1111. There at least I can see a coherent game plan; Charge Shot to kill (in theory. In reality it hits far too weakly to do this), Flame Pillar to control space and disrupt approaches, Reflect for obvious reasons, and Up-B 1 isn't a good recovery but it is at least okay.

Still, in the case of 2 of the 3 Miis you look at 1111 and ask "Okay, what does this character want to do?" I have trouble believing they were balanced around the concept of 1111 in their design and testing phases of development. Brawler becomes just short of worthless, and Swordfighter gains massive flaws. Gunner's gameplan is at least coherent, but I would not call it good.

I strongly believe Smash 4 is better off with the Miis being free to customize in terms of height/weight and movelist. Not equipment, just those variables. I urge tournament organizers to allow more freedom in Mii design, and online ladders to do the same. '1111' simply hurts these three characters far too much, and there is no clear indication they were designed around 1111 since they ignore the Custom Moves Off rule unlike the entire rest of the cast (including Palutena).

 

[Zarxrax]

I accidentally voted no. I was just anticipating "yes" to be the top option.

As Miis can be selected with any moveset without enabling custom moves in game, I really believe that if a tournament bans any particular moveset on them, or bans the characters altogether its not really different than banning any other character out of the roster. The tournament should have a reason to justify the ban.

 

[LimitCrown]

When you create a Mii, you have to instantly choose their moveset. The only reason they start out with 1111 in the move selection screen, is because the number 1 comes before the numbers 2 and 3. And these numbers were all arbitrarily assigned to each move, making the number itself inconsequential. Forcing them into one specific moveset just because the game randomly decided to name that moveset "1111" is utterly ridiculous. You cannot compare Miis to Palutena because the game actually DOES force her into 1111 when you turn customs off.

Are you serously going to argue that the special moves for each of the new characters were arbitrarily chosen with the numbers 1, 2, or 3? If so, then you might as well prefer custom moves. That way, they wouldn't be limited to such an "arbitrarily-listed" moveset. Now, doesn't that sound ridiculous? Also, I can certainly compare Palutena to their Miis because their gimmick (if it is one) with the custom moves is exactly the same in regard to how unique they are to each other. The Mii Fighters' gimmick with custom moves isn't very unique at all.

Simply put, limiting the Miis to 1111 makes no sense because there is no indication those are the true 'default moves.' Bear in mind the Mii's entire purpose is 'create your own character.' When you try 1111 loadouts on the Miis, you quickly see that 1111 is not even a coherent movelist on some of them.

I shall repeat myself: whether their default moveset is good or bad does not matter when custom moves are supposed to be prohibited in those types of tournaments. If you care so much about their default moveset not meeting your expectations, then custom tournaments would be better instead.

Also, each Mii Fighter can be only one of three different types: the Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner. Each of those three types are recognized by the game as a separate character, not every single Mii Fighter that could possibly be created. There is a main trophy, an alternate trophy, and a Final Smash trophy for each of the three characters. Also, I'm sure that the only reason that the Mii Fighters are able to use their custom moves when customization is disabled in most modes is that the amount of Mii Fighters that you can create is much larger than the amount of custom movesets that you can make for each of the other characters. However, Event Mode limits their moveset in this case, the mode is not significantly different from the other single-player modes since it is basically "fight these characters and complete this objective", and nobody should claim any longer that the game doesn't consider them to have defaults or, strangely, that "Miis don't have 'customs'".

Still, in the case of 2 of the 3 Miis you look at 1111 and ask "Okay, what does this character want to do?" I have trouble believing they were balanced around the concept of 1111 in their design and testing phases of development. Brawler becomes just short of worthless, and Swordfighter gains massive flaws. Gunner's gameplan is at least coherent, but I would not call it good.

You're speaking from the view that they're limited by using their default moveset instead of saying that they benefit greatly by using their custom moves. The same reasoning could be used for other characters that have comparatively subpar default special moves like Palutena. Would you argue the same for that character or any others? If not, then you shouldn't use that argument for the Mii Fighters.

I strongly believe Smash 4 is better off with the Miis being free to customize in terms of height/weight and movelist. Not equipment, just those variables. I urge tournament organizers to allow more freedom in Mii design, and online ladders to do the same. '1111' simply hurts these three characters far too much, and there is no clear indication they were designed around 1111 since they ignore the Custom Moves Off rule unlike the entire rest of the cast (including Palutena).

Palutena is also based on customization like the Mii Fighters, yet she isn't allowed to use those custom moves in tournaments that prohibit those. In any case, we don't always use what the game determines anyway. The items are disabled and tournaments usually don't use Sudden Death in order to determine the victor in the case of a tie because it is reportedly fairer. Because of this, why are people so averse to the Mii Fighters having their moveset limited like the other characters? If the Mii Fighters are able to access all of their special moves, then they are given a clear advantage that the other characters don't have. Therefore, the arguments in favor of the Mii Fighters being able to use their custom moves in those tournaments are inherently dishonest.

 

[Tinkerer]

The problem there is that with custom fighters off, Palutena doesn't get all her moves. Miis do. There is absolutely nothing indicating that Miis were ever supposed to be used without a pick-and-choose moveset. Saying Miis can't use any moves but 1111 isn't just nonsensical in the way of synergy, but it's completely ignoring what the game itself tells you.

What weight/height/face were you even going to use, anyway? Guest Miis?

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Also, for those describing the Miis as a 'fun bonus'... I will note they are some of my favorite characters in the game. What you see as a 'bonus' is a major part of my enjoyment of Smash 4. Not the sole part, but certainly I have a lot more fun with them than without. There is really nobody on the roster that plays quite like these three.

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

I have thought about this topic a lot in the past. I played with all the miis and thought up something that should work. You shouldn't be able to mix up the whole moveset, what should happen is mii gunners should use 1111, mii brawlers should use 2222, and mii swordsman should use 3333. What this will do is give the miis the best movesets they can have with customs that aren't mixed around (ex: 2321) so the sets for each mii will be easy to remember while at the same time benefiting each mii with a great moveset. I also belive this will help people learn the matchups better. The reason I think we should change the sets like this instead of keeping them all 1's is because it will make the characters used more and plus the fact the customs are already unlocked. These are the most simplistic (number wise) these movesets will get while giving the character the most potential. If the competitve scene doesn't want to mess around with the movesets, I think it would be good not to. I mean, if we switch these characters customs to give them the most potential, why not try to do the same for the rest? I honestly really like the mii fighters and they should consider this idea, but if not, that's fair.

 

[LimitCrown]

Because the Guest Miis have a perfectly average height and weight, the Mii Fighters would not have any modifiers affecting any of their stats. Any Mii with a perfecly average height and weight would be sufficient. Also, there would be nothing that would indicate that Palutena is "supposed" to use her 1111 moveset when she is based around customization. Her trophy says this and her trailer emphasized the different types of custom moves that she has. Just like the other characters, though, the Mii Fighters should use only the moveset that they start with in the tournaments that prohibit them. The Mii Fighters are not really as special as people portray the three characters to be.

 

[Doruge]

Are you serously going to argue that the special moves for each of the new characters were arbitrarily chosen with the numbers 1, 2, or 3? If so, then you might as well prefer custom moves. That way, they wouldn't be limited to such an "arbitrarily-listed" moveset. Now, doesn't that sound ridiculous? Also, I can certainly compare Palutena to their Miis because their gimmick (if it is one) with the custom moves is exactly the same in regard to how unique they are to each other. The Mii Fighters' gimmick with custom moves isn't very unique at all.

Look at any character BUT the Miis, and you can easily tell that the moves labelled with a "1" were labelled that way for a reason. Those moves are always the most "standard" version of the move. This is even true for Palutena, who's 1111 moveset contains all of her most standard moves (a reflector, a counter, a teleport, and the most "normal" of her neutral-b's). For the Miis, though, this doesn't apply. Because the numbers were indeed assigned completely at random, unlike with any other character. Which is why forcing them to use 1111 is, again, utterly ridiculous.

 

[LimitCrown]

Look at any character BUT the Miis, and you can easily tell that the moves labelled with a "1" were labelled that way for a reason. Those moves are always the most "standard" version of the move. This is even true for Palutena, who's 1111 moveset contains all of her most standard moves (a reflector, a counter, a teleport, and the most "normal" of her neutral-b's). For the Miis, though, this doesn't apply. Because the numbers were indeed assigned completely at random, unlike with any other character. Which is why forcing them to use 1111 is, again, utterly ridiculous.

This is basically moving the goalposts just so that the Mii Fighters can be the exception. You don't have any proof that the Mii Fighters' special moves were labeled randomly or arbitrarily.

 

[Doruge]

This is basically moving the goalposts just so that the Mii Fighters can be the exception. You don't have any proof that the Mii Fighters' special moves were labeled randomly or arbitrarily.

The game already decided that Miis were the exception. YOU'RE the one trying to move the goalpost here, bud.

 

[Woohoo982]

I gunners should use 1111, mii brawlers should use 2222, and mii swordsman should use 3333. What this will do is give the miis the best movesets they can have with customs that aren't mixed around (ex: 2321) so the sets for each mii will be easy to remember while at the same time benefiting each mii with a great moveset.

Mii Gunner's greatest same number movies being 1111? Do you PLAY Mii Gunner? Have you heard of Mii Gunner? Have you seen Mii Gunner? Do you EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THE EXISTENCE OF MII GUNNER'S CUSTOM MOVES?
*ahem*
Anyways, I feel like if mii gunner were to get a same number movesetm it would be 3333.
Those moves make gunner about as busted as he can be.

 

[BornABrawler]

Real Current Poll:
No - 8 vote(s)
Yes - 28 vote(s)

 

[LimitCrown]

The game already decided that Miis were the exception. YOU'RE the one trying to move the goalpost here, bud.

A few other people and you claimed that the Mii Fighters don't have default special moves. When proof was given to support that they had them, you immediately state that the proof isn't good enough even though it directly contradicts the claim that didn't have any. Also, when I pointed out that the Mii Fighters are clearly given an advantage by being able to use their custom moves in tournaments that prohibit custom moves, there was not any adequate justification to support why they should be able to access all 12 special moves while the other characters are limited to their four defaults. Finally, a few people have stated that the Mii Fighters' special moves were ordered and labeled randomly and arbitrarily; this claim has been used multiple times, yet there has never been any proof given to support this claim. It is only a presumption that people made in order to prevent the ordering from being used as evidence against their previous claims. There were also cases of people saying "Imagine if the custom moves were labeled X, Y, and Z" in order to do this, which is a terrible "argument" in the first place and it is clearly a logical fallacy.

 

[T4ylor]

They should be given access to all of their custom moves simply because it's an option given to us. Because they can. Versus mode allows it, so there's no reason we shouldn't. We're essentially throwing away characters if you don't give them that option. You say the Mii Fighters are given an advantage by allowing them to use all of their customs, but I don't see how that's relevant when the game is inherently unbalanced. Sheik has an advantage, being the best character in the game and all, but we aren't going out of our way to get rid of her.

 

[LimitCrown]

They should be given access to all of their custom moves simply because it's an option given to us. Because they can. Versus mode allows it, so there's no reason we shouldn't. We're essentially throwing away characters if you don't give them that option. You say the Mii Fighters are given an advantage by allowing them to use all of their customs, but I don't see how that's relevant when the game is inherently unbalanced. Sheik has an advantage, being the best character in the game and all, but we aren't going out of our way to get rid of her.

Don't reason that making the Mii Fighters use only their defaults is the same as throwing the characters away because, clearly, it isn't and that is just another fallacious argument that is commonly used. Also, it is impossible for a game with an incredibly large amount of characters with their own unique traits to ever be perfectly balanced, so don't try to use that as a justification because it is inadequate and faulty. 12 is obviously not equal to 4, so they are clearly being given an advantage if they're allowed to access of their custom moves when the other characters can only use their default special moves.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I suppose if 'not being complete garbage' is an advantage, then sure. I like that advantage for Swordfighter and Brawler. Helps Gunner too.

That the Miis ignore the Custom Moves switch is a compelling suggestion that they don't have true 'defaults.' If they did, your Mii would swap to 1111 in such a case when the Custom Moves rule is set to Off. They don't.

On top of this, I have to ask what the harm is. It's not as though these characters have been destroying tournaments left and right even when allowed to do free design. Brawler running Helicopter Kick and minimum size has perhaps come close, but I note that Zero Suit Samus does their trick even better and we're not tripping over ourselves to ban her.

It really does boil down to 'these characters become decently playable if allowed to operate as designed, and really suck if constrained to 1111 in ways few of the other characters on the roster are. Even default-moves Palutena has some kind of coherent game plan going. You can't say the same of 1111 Brawler.'

 

[DunnoBro]

If people refuse to accept regular custom moves, they're not going to accept mii fighter's alternate specials.

 

[LimitCrown]

I suppose if 'not being complete garbage' is an advantage, then sure. I like that advantage for Swordfighter and Brawler. Helps Gunner too.

That the Miis ignore the Custom Moves switch is a compelling suggestion that they don't have true 'defaults.' If they did, your Mii would swap to 1111 in such a case when the Custom Moves rule is set to Off. They don't.

Actually, they do in Event Mode. When customization is disabled, the Mii Fighters are restricted to their default moveset. Event Mode is also not significantly different from the other single-player modes. It not being the regular Smash mode doesn't matter; since it is an example of the game making the Mii Fighters use the moveset that they start with, it proves that they have them and the opposite claim is untrue.

On top of this, I have to ask what the harm is. It's not as though these characters have been destroying tournaments left and right even when allowed to do free design. Brawler running Helicopter Kick and minimum size has perhaps come close, but I note that Zero Suit Samus does their trick even better and we're not tripping over ourselves to ban her.

It really does boil down to 'these characters become decently playable if allowed to operate as designed, and really suck if constrained to 1111 in ways few of the other characters on the roster are. Even default-moves Palutena has some kind of coherent game plan going. You can't say the same of 1111 Brawler.'

In your argument, your idea of the way that the Mii Fighters were meant to be operated is just that: your assumption. Whether they consistently wins tournaments by using their custom moves does not matter; the point is that they have an clear advantage if they're able to access all of their custom special moves in tournaments that prohibit custom moves, and it is clearly giving them special treatment.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Actually, they do in Event Mode. (snip) Event Mode is also not significantly different from the other single-player modes. It not being the regular Smash mode doesn't matter; since it is an example of the game making the Mii Fighters use the moveset that they start with, it proves that they have them and the opposite claim is untrue.

I

What

I don't even

Are you seriously using single-player modes to interpret multiplayer?

I'm done here.

 

[Sodo]

I meant to say yes... Miis are the only character able to use all their moves with Customs Off aren't they? So why not?

 

[Doruge]

The game intentionally gives Miis special treatment and allows them to use their alternate moves with customs turned off. You want to remove this ability that the game gives them, effectively banning the use of their alternate specials. Typically when we ban things, we have a good reason for it. Your only reason seems to be "but in event mode they have a default moveset!!", which is probably the worst argument in favor of a ban that I've ever seen.

 

[LimitCrown]

The game intentionally gives Miis special treatment and allows them to use their alternate moves with customs turned off. You want to remove this ability that the game gives them, effectively banning the use of their alternate specials. Typically when we ban things, we have a good reason for it. Your only reason seems to be "but in event mode they have a default moveset!!", which is probably the worst argument in favor of a ban that I've ever seen.

Do you know what would have the same effect as banning a character? Obviously, actually banning a character. Also, if custom moves are being prohibited in those tournaments, why would I need another reason to limit the Mii Fighters' special moves to the defaults besides the fact that custom moves are being prohibited. Also, to those who insist on comparing the Mii Fighters being limited to their defaults with the characters being banned, stop making false comparisons.

I

What

I don't even

Are you seriously using single-player modes to interpret multiplayer?

I'm done here.

These two comments verify my accusation that the opposing side is moving the goal posts. You made the claim that the Mii Fighters didn't have anything considered to be defaults or that the game doesn't consider the characters to have defaults at any point. When I gave proof that this claim was false, you immediately stated that it doesn't count because it is a single-player mode. It doesn't matter that it's a single-player mode; you made the false claim, so there shouldn't be any excuses for it. Also, because the game considers them to have a default moveset, which happens to be their 1111 moveset (the same as every other character), there isn't a valid excuse for why they should be allowed to use their custom moves when custom moves are supposed to be prohibited in the first place.

Also, @ D Doruge , you still haven't provided any proof that the Mii's custom moves were ordered and labeled randomly or arbitrarily.

 

[DunnoBro]

Look, to players and TOs already against it, it isn't a matter of semantics with if they're playable in customs OFF or how they were intended to be used. No one cares. That isn't what they're looking at, they're looking at players dying at 50% because they're idiots and refuse to learn how to strike the pseudo-walkoff stage enabling it called smashville.

It's about two new viable characters that certain people don't want to deal with and will cry and moan whenever they're legal.

I think they should be legal, but I doubt they ever will be.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

These two comments verify my accusation that the opposing side is moving the goal posts.

...Are you my lawyer? Because you sound a lot like Tad Disingenuous, Attorney at Law.

Let me tell you precisely where my goal posts are.

The Miis are centered around the very premise of 'create your own character.' This includes picking specials. They flagrantly ignore the Custom Moves Off rule in the multiplayer modes of the game. I do not care, nor should anyone, what the game forces in a special single-player 'themed challenges mode' where the entire point is making the player deal with bizarre circumstances outside the norm. The idea that you're using it as a metric for competitive play design is laughable.

The Miis provide no specific harm to the game even in their fully optimized, free-movelist forms. Brawler can kill around 70% near edges, it's true, but Zero Suit Samus can do the same thing vertically and has spikes that can kill sooner than that in some cases. If anyone is truly worried about Brawler hurting play, they must apply this same criteria to Zero Suit Samus. Swordfighter? Aside from Trela, who is frankly an incredible player, we are not seeing much in the way of results from this character. Gunner is making even less headway than Swordfighter despite most theorycrafting at this time deeming Gunner better than Swordfighter (if only just barely, in some estimations). There is no reason to be afraid of their inclusion. Even at their most liberally included, we have seen no credible proof they really hurt the game. If they DO end up doing such, fine, we can consider a ban then but I would not be comfortable with the premature ban or neutering a lot of venues have been doing.

My goal post is: I want the Mii Fighters playable, and playable with as much freedom as reasonably possible in their design. These are three fun characters who offer something different to the game, it doesn't hurt anything by having them playable in their proper as-designed forms as Custom Characters. Any opposition to it is grounded in nonsense. Using a gimmick-laden single player challenge mode as your basis for ignoring how the multiplayer half of the game behaves is silly at best and willfully engaging in 'gotcha' arguments at worst. Limiting them to 1111 effectively removes one character from the game outright since nobody in their right mind plays 1111 Brawler, and severely limits two others that even at their most optimal have not been disruptive in play. I want the fans of these characters, myself included, to be able to have fun with them in competitive venues. Forcing them to 1111 is baffling since it's pretty obvious their game plans suddenly lose coherence when you do this. Brawler can't recover. Swordfighter loses the 'jack of all trades' versatility that is the point of the character. Gunner becomes effectively Worse Samus with a Reflector.

If the prospect of decent versions of these characters showing up in play worries some people, then I expect them to just straight up admit they are unwilling to learn 3 more matchups in a game that already has 50-something of them. I expect them to admit they are afraid of, and cannot deal with, two characters that aren't even very good to begin with and one that is good but not as good at early kills as Zero Suit Samus is (and people are fine with ZSS, I note; she hasn't been banned or given special rules to hold her back). Or if they won't admit this, come up with something more compelling than 'but... but... gimmicky single-player mode says that...!' before we decide to ignore the very core point of the three Custom Characters with unusual and interesting moves.

My goal post is I want to have fun with the Miis, and there is no harm in having them around. Why are you so set in reducing the fun available in competitive Smash? Why do you want to degrade and diminish the efforts people have spent learning these characters, and learning them as they're meant to be used as Custom Characters?

 

[Woohoo982]

People are going on about this despite tourneys ALLOWNG mii fighters. Xanadu allows it, look up PinkFresh vs Mik for proof.

 

[Doruge]

Do you know what would have the same effect as banning a character? Obviously, actually banning a character. Also, if custom moves are being prohibited in those tournaments, why would I need another reason to limit the Mii Fighters' special moves to the defaults besides the fact that custom moves are being prohibited.

You need another reason because turning customs off doesn't affect Miis in any way. It doesn't force them into 1111 like the other characters. Any rule regarding Mii legality is entirely separate from whether customs are on or off. And you simply have not provided a good enough reason for why we should create an additional rule that restricts Miis to 1111.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

People are going on about this despite tourneys ALLOWNG mii fighters. Xanadu allows it, look up PinkFresh vs Mik for proof.

An encouraging start to be sure, but some venues restrict them to 1111 moves which effectively guts the character in Brawler's case, and severely hinders Gunner and Swordfighter. I'm hoping they'll remove those restrictions to encourage more use of these really fun characters!

 

[LimitCrown]

You need another reason because turning customs off doesn't affect Miis in any way. It doesn't force them into 1111 like the other characters. Any rule regarding Mii legality is entirely separate from whether customs are on or off. And you simply have not provided a good enough reason for why we should create an additional rule that restricts Miis to 1111.

Whether the Mii Fighters are able to use their custom moves in Smash Mode when the customization setting is disabled is insignificant. If custom moves are prohibited in tournaments, then do this for every character. Also, the claim that the Mii Fighters don't have default special moves is incorrect to begin with, so there isn't any valid excuse to make them the exception to the rule.

...Are you my lawyer? Because you sound a lot like Tad Disingenuous, Attorney at Law.

Let me tell you precisely where my goal posts are.

The Miis are centered around the very premise of 'create your own character.' This includes picking specials. They flagrantly ignore the Custom Moves Off rule in the multiplayer modes of the game. I do not care, nor should anyone, what the game forces in a special single-player 'themed challenges mode' where the entire point is making the player deal with bizarre circumstances outside the norm. The idea that you're using it as a metric for competitive play design is laughable.

The Miis provide no specific harm to the game even in their fully optimized, free-movelist forms. Brawler can kill around 70% near edges, it's true, but Zero Suit Samus can do the same thing vertically and has spikes that can kill sooner than that in some cases. If anyone is truly worried about Brawler hurting play, they must apply this same criteria to Zero Suit Samus. Swordfighter? Aside from Trela, who is frankly an incredible player, we are not seeing much in the way of results from this character. Gunner is making even less headway than Swordfighter despite most theorycrafting at this time deeming Gunner better than Swordfighter (if only just barely, in some estimations). There is no reason to be afraid of their inclusion. Even at their most liberally included, we have seen no credible proof they really hurt the game. If they DO end up doing such, fine, we can consider a ban then but I would not be comfortable with the premature ban or neutering a lot of venues have been doing.

My goal post is: I want the Mii Fighters playable, and playable with as much freedom as reasonably possible in their design. These are three fun characters who offer something different to the game, it doesn't hurt anything by having them playable in their proper as-designed forms as Custom Characters. Any opposition to it is grounded in nonsense. Using a gimmick-laden single player challenge mode as your basis for ignoring how the multiplayer half of the game behaves is silly at best and willfully engaging in 'gotcha' arguments at worst. Limiting them to 1111 effectively removes one character from the game outright since nobody in their right mind plays 1111 Brawler, and severely limits two others that even at their most optimal have not been disruptive in play. I want the fans of these characters, myself included, to be able to have fun with them in competitive venues. Forcing them to 1111 is baffling since it's pretty obvious their game plans suddenly lose coherence when you do this. Brawler can't recover. Swordfighter loses the 'jack of all trades' versatility that is the point of the character. Gunner becomes effectively Worse Samus with a Reflector.

If the prospect of decent versions of these characters showing up in play worries some people, then I expect them to just straight up admit they are unwilling to learn 3 more matchups in a game that already has 50-something of them. I expect them to admit they are afraid of, and cannot deal with, two characters that aren't even very good to begin with and one that is good but not as good at early kills as Zero Suit Samus is (and people are fine with ZSS, I note; she hasn't been banned or given special rules to hold her back). Or if they won't admit this, come up with something more compelling than 'but... but... gimmicky single-player mode says that...!' before we decide to ignore the very core point of the three Custom Characters with unusual and interesting moves.

My goal post is I want to have fun with the Miis, and there is no harm in having them around. Why are you so set in reducing the fun available in competitive Smash? Why do you want to degrade and diminish the efforts people have spent learning these characters, and learning them as they're meant to be used as Custom Characters?

You're basically repeating things that you've stated before and what I've already addresed beforehand. There are three types of Mii FIghters: the Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner. The game recognizes those three different types as separate characters, not every single Mii Fighter that can be created.

Whether the Mii Fighters harm the game is irrelevant to the discussion. If they're allowed to use their custom moves in tournaments that are supposed to prohibit them, then they are clealy given an advantage. I'm certain that many other characters would like to use their custom moves, but that shouldn't matter in tournaments that prohibit those moves. Also, are you still comparing limiting a character to their default moveset to removing it? Stop making false comparisons.

Also, you seem to not understand what a goal post is. Your goal post was "Prove that the game considers the characters to have a default moveset." I have given proof of that. However, you immediately claim that it doesn't count because it is a single-player mode. The fact that Event Mode is a single-player mode doesn't matter; it is evidence that the game considers one of their movesets to be the default. It is their 1111 moveset, which is the same as every other character. Many other people and you made the false claim that they didn't have a default moveset. Also, as I said before, your views on how the the three characters were meant to be operated is just that: your assumption and opinion. Also, whether their default moveset is "good" or "bad" is irrelevant. The way that the Mii Fighters' custom moves were designed is similar to how Palutena's custom moves were designed. Why should the Mii Fighters not be affected by the rule when Palutena is?

Also, when have I stated that I wanted to "reduce the fun" in the game? I have not stated this at all. How dare you misattribute that to me.

 

[DunnoBro]

People are going on about this despite tourneys ALLOWNG mii fighters. Xanadu allows it, look up PinkFresh vs Mik for proof.

They can only use anything other than 1111 or default on custom days.

 

[Doruge]

Whether the Mii Fighters are able to use their custom moves in Smash Mode when the customization setting is disabled is insignificant. If custom moves are prohibited in tournaments, then do this for every character. Also, the claim that the Mii Fighters don't have default special moves is incorrect to begin with, so there isn't any valid excuse to make them the exception to the rule.

Except you can't just group Mii moves with everyone else's custom moves, because they work completely differently (and please don't try to compare them to Palutena's, it only shows your ignorance of how Mii moves work). Banning one doesn't automatically ban the other, which is why tournaments ALWAYS create a separate rule for Mii legality.

 

[Mic_128]

Except you can't just group Mii moves with everyone else's custom moves, because they work completely differently (and please don't try to compare them to Palutena's, it only shows your ignorance of how Mii moves work).

I know how Mii customs work (I main Gunner, too) but I'm interested into your argument that the Mii's custom moves all being different is somehow unrelated to Palutena having her custom moves being all different.

 

[Doruge]

I know how Mii customs work (I main Gunner, too) but I'm interested into your argument that the Mii's custom moves all being different is somehow unrelated to Palutena having her custom moves being all different.

What I meant is that Mii moves work differently than the custom moves of every other character, and this is because of the fact that they are still enabled when customs are turned off. Same does not hold true for Palutena. Mii moves and Palutena's moves do have similarities, which are that you start with them by default and that they're all wildly different from each other. But the key fact of the matter is that Palutena is forced into 1111 when customs are turned off, and Miis are not. And that is the only thing that matters when you're talking about the customs-off meta.

 

[BornABrawler]

Real Current Poll:
No - 10 vote(s)
Yes - 33 vote(s)

 

[Swampertrulz]

Real Current Poll:
No - 10 vote(s)
Yes - 33 vote(s)

We know.

 

[LimitCrown]

What I meant is that Mii moves work differently than the custom moves of every other character, and this is because of the fact that they are still enabled when customs are turned off. Same does not hold true for Palutena. Mii moves and Palutena's moves do have similarities, which are that you start with them by default and that they're all wildly different from each other. But the key fact of the matter is that Palutena is forced into 1111 when customs are turned off, and Miis are not. And that is the only thing that matters when you're talking about the customs-off meta.

From a gameplay standpoint, in regard to the way that those characters' custom special moves were designed, the Mii Fighters and Palutena aren't really different. If a tournament prohibits custom moves, then regardless of the fact that the Miis are able to use their custom moves in Smash Mode while the customization setting is disabled, their moveset should be restricted to the default like the others.