Should Custom Mii's Be Seprated From Fighter Customs?

[BornABrawler]

Most Mii main players are struggling with the SM4SH community because Mii's are included in customs. But why is that the case? Mii characters thrive on a custom moveset because they are a blank slate, left to only the creator to decide what they can do. And is that an issue? Not really. If you view the results for most custom tournaments they don't place high. So they clearly aren't insanely broken. And the only Mii that gives trouble to most players is the Mii Brawler, even though they don't have any unfair matchups. But what about people who have thrived in this character and can make them viable? I want to direct you to Dapuffster, a Mii Brawler main, usually using the custom moves 2122. He has been recently pushing for Mii Brawler, Gunner, and Swordsman to be playable in non-custom tournaments. And while he has been very logical and willing, the community has been narrow-minded and see Mii customs the same as Fighter customs. His persistence and confidence has recently been decreasing because of the negative feedback. While he looks forward to playing his Mii, Felix, at EVO, he is afraid that the future is looking grim for him and other Mii mains.

So ask you once more: Why should Mii's be excluded from non-custom tournaments, when the potential of the character is there, but we as a community are neglecting them? I'd like to hear your thoughts and comments. And please be open-minded on the situation. If you can share this thread so that we can get community feedback, it would be very much appreciated.

Thank You

 

[Charey]

Yes, they have their own movesets distinct from any other character there is no reason to ban them, you can select them with customs off like any other character.

 

[BornABrawler]

Yes, they have their own movesets distinct from any other character there is no reason to ban them, you can select them with customs off like any other character.

I apologize if I am interpreting your comment wrong, but I am talking about allowing Mii's with custom moves at non-custom tournaments. I am sorry if I accidentally led you to a different topic.

 

[T0MMY]

Any ban/limit needs to fit a criteria, competitively. If it is not warranted then it is scrubby and competitive players should address the issue/get it overruled or simply not attend the event and compete in a more competitively viable event.

A ban/limit on the Mii Fighters must be warranted. Simply limiting them to a certain height/weight or 1-1-1-1 moveset for example based on nothing more than "other tournaments are doing it" is NOT a viable reason. Any contention of "OP" is ridiculous (it is both subjectively arbitrary and does not hold when compared to data of events). "Not fair" due to "customs" is also ridiculous since the game does not agree with this - they may be used when Custom Fighters is set to OFF (showing they are not considered "Custom" fighters).

The Smash Community needs to address this - any TO who bans/limits ANY character needs to be put on the spot about WHY they are doing this, if there is no viable competitive reason for the ban/limit then the Event Organizers are hosting a CASUAL event not intended for competitive players.

 

[Illuminose]

My issue with allowing custom Mii Fighters revolves around the fact that Mii Brawler's custom Up Bs are really kinda absurd. I'm open to allowing custom Miis if Mii Brawler custom Up Bs are banned, if not I'd rather see all default (which is simpler anyways).

 

[Xeze]

My issue with allowing custom Mii Fighters revolves around the fact that Mii Brawler's custom Up Bs are really kinda absurd. I'm open to allowing custom Miis if Mii Brawler custom Up Bs are banned, if not I'd rather see all default (which is simpler anyways).

I'm assuming you're talking about Helicopter Kick. It is fine. Just don't get hit by it near the ledge or offstage and you're fine.

 

[Raijinken]

I fully support any individual TO's decision to include Miis and not general-use Customs. However, I feel like that should only be done if the Miis being run are of uniform size (probably default) and 1111 2222 3333 per type (heck, maybe even just pick one). It's not optimal, but neither is most of the roster without customs.

 

[Doval]

I fully support any individual TO's decision to include Miis and not general-use Customs. However, I feel like that should only be done if the Miis being run are of uniform size (probably default) and 1111 2222 3333 per type (heck, maybe even just pick one). It's not optimal, but neither is most of the roster without customs.

What makes 1111, 2222 and 3333 special other than being the same number four times?

 

[Charey]

I apologize if I am interpreting your comment wrong, but I am talking about allowing Mii's with custom moves at non-custom tournaments. I am sorry if I accidentally led you to a different topic.

Well some tournaments where banning even 1111 Miis, so I thought you where talking about that.

I can see why some TOs would force 1111,2222, or 3333 but I don't see it being a big deal if someone wants to use their own Mii. I would say that in a non-customs tournaments that any player should only be allowed to upload one Mii, it's not fair for them to change movesets if other people cant (also it helps with time concerns.)

But I favor custom over non-custom tournaments anyways.

 

[BornABrawler]

My issue with allowing custom Mii Fighters revolves around the fact that Mii Brawler's custom Up Bs are really kinda absurd. I'm open to allowing custom Miis if Mii Brawler custom Up Bs are banned, if not I'd rather see all default (which is simpler anyways).

I would argue that Helicopter Kick can be DI'd away from and survived, though it is difficult. Piston Punch is only effective on stages with transporting ceilings, so I don't think either are a huge issue. Though I do see the concern

 

[Raijinken]

What makes 1111, 2222 and 3333 special other than being the same number four times?

They're simple, finite, hard-to-dispute lists of special moves. If you run 1111, you're (when compared to other characters) not running "Customs" at all. You're also running near-worst variants of each Mii, which is why I'd suggest the 2s or 3s, but again, TO's choice. They don't add much variety if you limit players to their worst possible configurations, but it's better than nothing.

I'm fully pro-customs, but the larger the tournament, the more variety has to be sacrificed for time. If the TO doesn't want to run some subset of the EVO Miis to facilitate "best case" loadouts, then simplifying it to mid height mid weight "default specials" is the most status-quo way to do it while still having Miis legal.

I would argue that Helicopter Kick can be DI'd away from and survived, though it is difficult. Piston Punch is only effective on stages with transporting ceilings, so I don't think either are a huge issue. Though I do see the concern

Piston Punch is essentially Mac's upB, which isn't banned. Helicopter Kick is less guaranteed than most Sheik combos to kill, and is also pretty bad as an actual recovery move. I could be biased as someone who puts significant time into playing as Miis and has no regular opponents who use them, but none of them are worth banning over existing characters' default specials.

 

[BornABrawler]

I fully support any individual TO's decision to include Miis and not general-use Customs. However, I feel like that should only be done if the Miis being run are of uniform size (probably default) and 1111 2222 3333 per type (heck, maybe even just pick one). It's not optimal, but neither is most of the roster without customs.

I think while this would be a good temporary change, but like you said it's not optimal. Usually most Mii Brawlers like to use 2122. Though 2222 would be a decent option, it's not what is the best for the character. And while default is the logical conclusion for size, most characters can't recover properly due to being so heavy. (This mostly applies to Mii Swordfighter) Including the other Mii's, some of them can't be supported by just one set moveset. I do agree that the TO has final say, but it's also important for the community to decide what should be done for the game. At this point however any change for Mii's allowed at non-custom tournaments would be for the better.

 

[BornABrawler]

I'm fully pro-customs, but the larger the tournament, the more variety has to be sacrificed for time. If the TO doesn't want to run some subset of the EVO Miis to facilitate "best case" loadouts, then simplifying it to mid height mid weight "default specials" is the most status-quo way to do it while still having Miis legal.


Piston Punch is essentially Mac's upB, which isn't banned. Helicopter Kick is less guaranteed than most Sheik combos to kill, and is also pretty bad as an actual recovery move. I could be biased as someone who puts significant time into playing as Miis and has no regular opponents who use them, but none of them are worth banning over existing characters' default specials.

I only read this comment after the one I previously posted. The things I said in that post seem to match your thoughts in this post. Sorry about telling you things you already know/think.

 

[Tinkerer]

Miis have no "customs" at all and having 1111/2222/3333 is just completely arbitrary based on nothing but the random order the moves are in the Mii editor. If you're going to have Miis, allow them with any moveset and size OR pick a good moveset/size for all three of them and let them only compete that way. The way Miis get restrictions other characters don't is kind of silly, because they're interesting and should be able to be played without being massively gimped.

 

[Ghostbone]

All movesets should be legal for miis, whether the settings are customs on or off, since it doesn't matter for them.

The only real concern is their size, which for logistical reasons you could require them to be neutral, though I feel like you could just set up a light/skinny mii on every wii since that is the best size.

 

[Balgorxz]

miis and palutena aren't customs moves characters, each moveset has completely different moves instead of variations making 1-1-1-1 a different character from 1-1-1-2.
custom palutena and miis should never be banned in any situation, size should be standard IMO.

 

[Pazx]

This thread isn't about Palutena so let's discuss her elsewhere, @ Balgorxz

I'd prefer if Miis were allowed to have any moveset in all tournaments, but be limited to default size only in non-custom tournaments for ease of setup.

 

[Balgorxz]

This thread isn't about Palutena so let's discuss her elsewhere, @ Balgorxz

I'd prefer if Miis were allowed to have any moveset in all tournaments, but be limited to default size only in non-custom tournaments for ease of setup.

that's why I came up with it, Palutena IS a mii logistics wise.

 

[Pazx]

that's why I came up with it, Palutena IS a mii logistics wise.

You're wrong though, the game disagrees with you (the most obvious examples being Palutena's inability to use custom moves when customs are turned off as well as having only one height/weight combination).

Palutena discussion doesn't belong here for 2 reasons.
1. It's completely unrelated
2. It weakens the arguments for Miis (definitely) and Palutena (arguably) so stop hurting your own cause

 

[Doval]

You're wrong though, the game disagrees with you (the most obvious examples being Palutena's inability to use custom moves when customs are turned off as well as having only one height/weight combination).

Palutena discussion doesn't belong here for 2 reasons.
1. It's completely unrelated
2. It weakens the arguments for Miis (definitely) and Palutena (arguably) so stop hurting your own cause

But as Tinkerer mentions, Palutena doesn't have custom moves in the usual sense. Like Miis, all of her specials are different and immediately available. She was made from the ground up with 12 specials in mind rather than 8 variations of 4 stock specials with different trade-offs. There's nothing particularly special about her 1111 moveset besides the fact that it's what the game defaults to when customs are turned off.

The whole "game disagrees with you" is a rather weak point. How the game is set up by default has no bearing on tournament rules. We've never played with items or on broken stages.

The logistics of custom Palutena are 90% the same as Mii fighters so it's very counterproductive to insist another thread be made to discuss essentially the same issue.

 

[Ghostbone]

But as Tinkerer mentions, Palutena doesn't have custom moves in the usual sense. Like Miis, all of her specials are different and immediately available. She was made from the ground up with 12 specials in mind rather than 8 variations of 4 stock specials with different trade-offs. There's nothing particularly special about her 1111 moveset besides the fact that it's what the game defaults to when customs are turned off.

The whole "game disagrees with you" is a rather weak point. How the game is set up by default has no bearing on tournament rules. We've never played with items or on broken stages.

The logistics of custom Palutena are 90% the same as Mii fighters so it's very counterproductive to insist another thread be made to discuss essentially the same issue.

Custom off tourneys have customs turned off, Palutena can't be played with any moveset besides 1111 when customs are off.

Miis can be played with any moveset (there's nothing even special about the 1111 moveset, it's just the moves that are there by default when they're made) while customs are turned off.

They're not the same bro. It's not about what settings the game has by default, it's about the settings we use, and the setting "customs off" doesn't allow Palutena to use alternate movesets.

 

[Doval]

Custom off tourneys have customs turned off, Palutena can't be played with any moveset besides 1111 when customs are off.

Miis can be played with any moveset (there's nothing even special about the 1111 moveset, it's just the moves that are there by default when they're made) while customs are turned off.

They're not the same bro. It's not about what settings the game has by default, it's about the settings we use, and the setting "customs off" doesn't allow Palutena to use alternate movesets.

Again, how the game is set up has no bearing on tournament rules, and the default attitude towards tournament rules is to permit unless there's good reason to ban. You can argue they're not the same on the basis of how the game handles it all you want. The crux of the matter is what the community wants to do with the characters.

 

[Ghostbone]

Again, how the game is set up has no bearing on tournament rules, and the default attitude towards tournament rules is to permit unless there's good reason to ban. You can argue they're not the same on the basis of how the game handles it all you want. The crux of the matter is what the community wants to do with the characters.

The community can do whatever it wants obviously, but the justification for allowing mii fighters to have whichever moveset they want and allowing palutena to use custom moves is completely different.

 

[T4ylor]

Miis should definitely be allowed with whatever customs and weight the player wants to use, because the game allows you to use them with Customs set to OFF. Now a few people don't want this because it will allow Mii Brawler to use Helicopter Kick, which can be seen as overpowered. My argument to this is: I think Rosalina & Luma's Up Air is overpowered, so can we just ban her? Others are against this because of tournament time constraints, but much of those same people are also advocates for 3 stock 8 minutes, so I don't see how you'd come to that conclusion. The Miis being banned/limited mostly comes down to people not wanting to deal with another strong character or wanting to learn a couple match ups against not so good characters and to that I say, "git gud, scrub."

 

[BornABrawler]

But as Tinkerer mentions, Palutena doesn't have custom moves in the usual sense. Like Miis, all of her specials are different and immediately available. She was made from the ground up with 12 specials in mind rather than 8 variations of 4 stock specials with different trade-offs. There's nothing particularly special about her 1111 moveset besides the fact that it's what the game defaults to when customs are turned off.

The whole "game disagrees with you" is a rather weak point. How the game is set up by default has no bearing on tournament rules. We've never played with items or on broken stages.

The logistics of custom Palutena are 90% the same as Mii fighters so it's very counterproductive to insist another thread be made to discuss essentially the same issue.

While I don't want to go too far into this, (Because the topic is about Mii Fighters) I think Palutena should not be allowed customs on during non-custom tournaments. Why? Well you have to turn on customs to be able to use her, which means she would be a custom character. Secondly she is part of the Smash Bros cast. And what I mean by that is Mii Fighters aren't unlocked until you make one, which means they are absent until creation. Palutena is on the character select list no matter what, so she is considered a Fighter custom rather than a Mii custom. And that also leads to viability. Is Palutena more viable with custom on? Absolutely yes. I think that would be a problem because she would then have an advantage over most characters. In the case of Mii Fighters though no matter how you customize them they stay relatively balanced. That is my take on the situation anyways.

 

[san.]

Yes, Miis are already allowed by the game. You'll have to add a special rule for Palutena if you want since you have to change the settings just for that character.

 

[thehard]

Imagine if custom moves were labeled "triangle, circle, square" instead of "1, 2, 3" >_>

 

[Runic_SSB]

Crap, I meant to vote yes. OP, why the hell is "no" the first option?

Anyway, @ san. already said what I was going to say on the custom moves issue. Regarding mii sizes, that's somewhat debatable, but IMO they should be allowed because it would be super easy to just make a single minimum weight, 1/4 height Mii for everyone to use.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

My vote is no just because I don't see them as a legitimate part of the cast. I'm fully tolerant of any move/size combination of Miis at a customs-on tournament, but I perceive the "customs-off" ruleset to be "officially sanctioned characters as they were intended," and I perceive the Miis to be "For Fun" bonus features added to the cast.

If you have to make a character's moveset up, then it doesn't arguably have an "as-intended" form, which invalidates it in my mind from the base set of characters.

If you see this as arbitrary and the result of my general disinterest in the characters, you're not entirely wrong. But I also don't think I'm entirely wrong in my opinion of them as peripheral features to the cast instead of essential. They're not available in online modes, and I don't think this was purely an issue of censorship as much as a stance on their legitimacy.

At the end of the day, our rulesets are often arbitrary. We discard certain features of the game and add in our own (% leads instead of Sudden Death).

 

[Doruge]

My vote is no just because I don't see them as a legitimate part of the cast. I'm fully tolerant of any move/size combination of Miis at a customs-on tournament, but I perceive the "customs-off" ruleset to be "officially sanctioned characters as they were intended," and I perceive the Miis to be "For Fun" bonus features added to the cast.

I don't see Sonic as a legitimate part of the cast. We should ban him in customs-off tournaments because I perceive him to be a "For Fun" bonus feature added to the cast.

Seriously, get a better argument. We don't base rulesets off of what's allowed on For Glory.

 

[Woohoo982]

They're simple, finite, hard-to-dispute lists of special moves. If you run 1111, you're (when compared to other characters) not running "Customs" at all. You're also running near-worst variants of each Mii, which is why I'd suggest the 2s or 3s, but again, TO's choice. They don't add much variety if you limit players to their worst possible configurations, but it's better than nothing.

I'm fully pro-customs, but the larger the tournament, the more variety has to be sacrificed for time. If the TO doesn't want to run some subset of the EVO Miis to facilitate "best case" loadouts, then simplifying it to mid height mid weight "default specials" is the most status-quo way to do it while still having Miis legal.


Piston Punch is essentially Mac's upB, which isn't banned. Helicopter Kick is less guaranteed than most Sheik combos to kill, and is also pretty bad as an actual recovery move. I could be biased as someone who puts significant time into playing as Miis and has no regular opponents who use them, but none of them are worth banning over existing characters' default specials.

Nice argument.
I think that sets that aren't same-nuber-4-times sets are best for the mii.
Sorry if i go off topic here but these are what i think are the best sets for each mii:
Brawler: 3323(Exploding Side Kick,Headache Maker,Helicopter Kick,Foot Flurry)
Swordfighter: 2321(Shrunken of Light,Chakram,Skyward Slash Dash,Blade Counter)
Gunner: 3122(Grenade Launch,Flame Pillar,Cannon Uppercut,Bomb Drop)

 

[⑨ball]

Not exactly seeing the argument for custom characters in non-customs tournaments. It seems simple enough when you consider miis can be used without actually cutting customs on, but at the end of the day you're still going to making some type of extra effort to allow 1-9(including standard sizes) custom characters, and with the same stroke denying the rest of the cast.

Whether you're a TO using Amazing Ampharos' system to have sets prepared before hand for smooth tourney running, or you're allowing players to create their miis before matches/tournament/bring their own custom miis on a 3DS/ect you're still allowing one group of players to do something no one else is allowed to for no legitimate reason.

The issue with customs has always come down to the extra steps that have to be taken by the TO and their questionable balancing issues. I understand the plea, but can't agree with special treatment for one set of players.

 

[Raijinken]

Not exactly seeing the argument for custom characters in non-customs tournaments. It seems simple enough when you consider miis can be used without actually cutting customs on, but at the end of the day you're still going to making some type of extra effort to allow 1-9(including standard sizes) custom characters, and with the same stroke denying the rest of the cast.

Whether you're a TO using Amazing Ampharos' system to have sets prepared before hand for smooth tourney running, or you're allowing players to create their miis before matches/tournament/bring their own custom miis on a 3DS/ect you're still allowing one group of players to do something no one else is allowed to for no legitimate reason.

The issue with customs has always come down to the extra steps that have to be taken by the TO and their questionable balancing issues. I understand the plea, but can't agree with special treatment for one set of players.

Would you call it allowing custom characters if there was only one default-size Mii fighter of each type running 1111? Just curious.

Not like most Mii users would even bother with those loadouts. They're pretty abysmal.

Anyways, while defaults continue to regularly dominate customs tournaments, I don't think "questionable balancing" should even be on the table.

 

[⑨ball]

Would you call it allowing custom characters if there was only one default-size Mii fighter of each type running 1111? Just curious.

Not like most Mii users would even bother with those loadouts. They're pretty abysmal.

Anyways, while defaults continue to regularly dominate customs tournaments, I don't think "questionable balancing" should even be on the table.

Most likely. Although I'm a supporter of miis in general(mii gunner is neat) , thinking of it from a TO's position you're still going to be taking that extra step to for a character whether it comes before or during tournament.

Probably not optimal for everyone's playstyle but certainly better than default, yeah?

It usually wouldn't be,and it's not in this context--as how powerful mii are with customs is irrelevant to whether they should be allowed in customs off, but for the first time in smash history whether we allow questionable specials to be allowed is available and simple to us. Not necessarily a good reason, but you can bet that future discussions on customs will be affected by popular opinion with things like heavy skull bash and exploding balloons taking a forefront.

 

[Doruge]

Sorry if i go off topic here but these are what i think are the best sets for each mii:
Brawler: 3323(Exploding Side Kick,Headache Maker,Helicopter Kick,Foot Flurry)

Something tells me you don't actually play Mii Brawler.

 

[LimitCrown]

Imagine if custom moves were labeled "triangle, circle, square" instead of "1, 2, 3" >_>

Let's not imagine that since that is an appeal to ridicule argument. Trying to make examples of what the custom moves could have been labeled, which seem to usually be implausible and unreasonable like the triangle, square, and circle labeling that you used, does not adequately disprove anything about the opposing side's argument or even show that it is incorrect in the first place.

In any case, the claims that the Mii Fighters don't have anything considered to be default special moves are wrong to begin with. The Miis can be used to create one of three separate characters: the Mii Brawler Swordfighter, and Gunner. Each Mii Fighter that is created begins with the 1111 moveset every single time, and it isn't like the movesets are randomized each time that you attempt to create a Mii Fighter. Also, whether the 1111 moveset is "good" or "bad" for each of those three characters does not matter at all.

You're wrong though, the game disagrees with you (the most obvious examples being Palutena's inability to use custom moves when customs are turned off as well as having only one height/weight combination).

Palutena discussion doesn't belong here for 2 reasons.
1. It's completely unrelated
2. It weakens the arguments for Miis (definitely) and Palutena (arguably) so stop hurting your own cause

Palutena is certainly related to the discussion because her custom moves are unique the same way that the Mii Fighters' custom moves are unique. Allowing the Mii Fighters to use custom moves in the tournaments that prohibit them while Palutena can't even use hers is clearly giving those three characters special treatment. Also, regarding the effects that a Mii's height and weight have on a Mii Fighter's stats, it is similar to the effects that equipment can have. It can affect the Mii's damage output slightly, their resistance to knockback (in this case, the weight stat is affected), and, most importantly, their mobility.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I always consider the hoop-jumping people go through to figure how to make three characters legal but not customs a further reason to just allow customs in the first place. It's so much simpler, among other advantages, to just let everyone use the customs; there's no vague cases of being unfair to certain characters to just let everyone use everything the game gave them.

 

[Raijinken]

I always consider the hoop-jumping people go through to figure how to make three characters legal but not customs a further reason to just allow customs in the first place. It's so much simpler, among other advantages, to just let everyone use the customs; there's no vague cases of being unfair to certain characters to just let everyone use everything the game gave them.

It's hardly a matter of hoop jumping when "default" versions exist (well, they're certainly trying to hoop-jump, but they don't have to in any way). But with how exceptionally bad the defaults are compared to custom (like a number of other characters), it's even hard for pro-customs players like me to justify using them if you can't use them in a "usable" form for competition. I love playing Brawler, but there's no way I'd enter a tournament with him on 1111 at mid size and weight. Unlike customs at large, adding another sub-par character to a contest of Sheiks is hardly worth the TO's time.

 

[T4ylor]

My issue with going the customs-on route is that I don't find the metagame to be enjoyable. So if it became standard I'd just find a better game.

 

[LimitCrown]

Wait. How is making the Mii Fighters use their default movesets in custom-move-prohibiting tournaments hoop-jumping when the opposing side twists the meaning of what a custom move is in order to bypass that rule and give them an advantage under the pretense that it is "fair" for them? As I said before, whether the 1111 moveset is good or bad does not matter. There are many characters that would benefit from having a certain custom move, but that doesn't matter in tournaments that are supposed to prohibit those.