Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Nedved]

Last night I was playing again a friend, a Falcon mainer, and he edgeguarded my Sheik with Back Air. I didn't figure any way to avoid it (I failed every time he did it well).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEJgQOSFTcE (PAL Version)

It's a Bo5 where he used it a lot. If someone has any clue to how not to be edgeguard like this :/
I still have a lot of problems when I play (I don't know why but since a month I always do random FSmash :/). If you have some advices... =)

 

[ShroudedOne]

It seems that people in Europe like playing without music. Hmmmm...

Just recover lower (essentially what Jolteon says below).

 

[Jolteon]

It only works because you jump into it. :/

:king:

 

[bubbaking]

Last night I was playing again a friend, a Falcon mainer, and he edgeguarded my Sheik with Back Air. I didn't figure any way to avoid it (I failed every time he did it well).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEJgQOSFTcE (PAL Version)

It's a Bo5 where he used it a lot. If someone has any clue to how not to be edgeguard like this :/
I still have a lot of problems when I play (I don't know why but since a month I always do random FSmash :/). If you have some advices... =)

Well, your random fsmashes are probably cuz you don't give your fingers time to actually press the jump button before you try fairing. Could also be that you try fairing when dropping thru a platform but you don't give Sheik time to actually drop thru.

It seems that people in Europe like playing with music. Hmmmm...

Sure you meant "without".

 

[ShroudedOne]

I definitely meant without. I changed it after realizing.

 

[Kaffei]

That order does exist, but not for two chars grabbing each other. It's for situations like when an attack hits two chars, one of which is grabbing the other. Then, the higher port (closer to 4) takes damage, but remains put, while the other player receives both damage and knockback. I believe there is actually a team tactic called omnigay based off of this that involves Snake/Link/Toon Link and MK/Kirby.

yeah u up throw and time it so that the grenade/bomb explodes while mk/kirby are in the magnifying glass at the top and the person getting grabbed dies lmao

Last night I was playing again a friend, a Falcon mainer, and he edgeguarded my Sheik with Back Air. I didn't figure any way to avoid it (I failed every time he did it well).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEJgQOSFTcE (PAL Version)

It's a Bo5 where he used it a lot. If someone has any clue to how not to be edgeguard like this :/
I still have a lot of problems when I play (I don't know why but since a month I always do random FSmash :/). If you have some advices... =)

2:30
4:30
5:20
Everytime you got hit by bair it's cus u kept trying to jump predictably onto the stage or you just didn't recover low enough
go a little lower and just use Up B to auto snap onto the ledge so he can't bair u
8:11 u air dodged which worked

11:25 you didn't auto snap the ledge

16:58 see you always waste ur DJ by going into his like.. trajectory. i think if u went a little lower and uaired you would have hit him like this:

Idk im waiting for KK's response lol

 

[Kaffei]

sorry double post

 

[KirbyKaze]

You... really can't see how to beat that edgeguard...?

 

[Kaffei]

You... really can't see how to beat that edgeguard...?

LOOOOOOOOL
cmon KK dont be mean i wanna know too hahaha

 

[bubbaking]

LMAO! Watching the C. Falcon play during the first match was one of the funniest things ever. Mostly just, "Eh, I'm gonna do my thing. Gonna run around. Not gonna punish any mistakes. You know, a bit of a Falcon jab here, a falcon grab there. You come over here, I'll go over there." XD Not that it was bad, just funny.....cuz I'm bad. O_o Also, nice pic Kaffei!

 

[ShroudedOne]

16:58 see you always waste ur DJ by going into his like.. trajectory. i think if u went a little lower and uaired you would have hit him like this:

Idk im waiting for KK's response lol

That's actually a sweet picture. Good job!

 

[Nedved]

ShroudedOne : We play with other musics as background on the PC. ^^

I will try to be careful and to recover lower, but i tried in other friendlies but he somehow manage to hit me :/ I'm too predictable when I recover.. Gonna work harder.

Air Dodge, Up-B sooner and recover lower are the ways i've find but I still get hit too much :/ (This match was awful. I should think before I try to recover ^^

Kaffei : Awesome Picture, gonna try it too :D

 

[KirbyKaze]

LOOOOOOOOL
cmon KK dont be mean i wanna know too hahaha

I don't have much to add to your suggestions... they were fine. Falcon's is basically covering directly coming onto the stage, so going to the edge or avoiding the zone he's protecting (either with invincibility or a better hitbox) will work.

 

[Kaffei]

I don't have much to add to your suggestions... they were fine. Falcon's is basically covering directly coming onto the stage, so going to the edge or avoiding the zone he's protecting (either with invincibility or a better hitbox) will work.

oh ok. just wanted to make sure. thank you!

 

[bubbaking]

ShroudedOne : We play with other musics as background on the PC. ^^

I will try to be careful and to recover lower, but i tried in other friendlies but he somehow manage to hit me :/ I'm too predictable when I recover.. Gonna work harder.

Air Dodge, Up-B sooner and recover lower are the ways i've find but I still get hit too much :/ (This match was awful. I should think before I try to recover ^^

Kaffei : Awesome Picture, gonna try it too :D

Yeah, you could always attack back too. You can afford to use a little time offstage since your recovery is so versatile as long as you're close to the stage.

 

[Zoler]

That's just you cherrypicking and oversimplifying dittos in general. Just because you lost a set because you got dashdance grabbed a lot doesn't mean that dittos are unilaterally "spacing fests." If you had played an uber-technical Fox and just got out-combo'd/punished, you could've came on and said "Dittos... techskill fest." Everything matters in a ditto; it's just another matchup.


Edit: Chaingrab question that I'm sure has been asked many times but I read all the Sheik ditto guides and there isn't much information on it: How exactly do you re-grab Sheik at 0% if she DI's away from you? Should you just wait and techchase (like you would a fastfaller) until about 20%? Or is there something I'm missing here? I was told never to JC grab during chaingrabs, that dash grab is always better; is that true?

Yeah, you're right, I definitely oversimplified things there and like you said everything definitely matters. I still feel spacing matters a bit more in dittos in general because you both have the same hitboxes.

 

[soap]

just fastfall under, and bair them as you pass with your dj. then hustle back off and bair them twice more. I do this all the time when they try those shenanigans.

If they predict your fastfall and try to follow with a fastfall bair of their own, you DJ over. You basically have to just watch falcon and read him.

Needle turn, dj bair is a good option sometimes too. You need a clean hit, or you're dead tho.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Yeah, you're right, I definitely oversimplified things there and like you said everything definitely matters. I still feel spacing matters a bit more in dittos in general because you both have the same hitboxes.

Yes and no. Like, with Fox for example, I think the matchup in which spacing matters the most is vs. Marth - you really can't afford to **** up your spaced shield pressure because his shieldgrab is that much bigger, and in every situation in which spacing matters in a Fox ditto, spacing matters as much or more vs. Marth (dashdancing him out, maintaining a good range etc.)

I guess it's more or less splitting hairs at this point, though. I know what you're talking about, and agree to some extent.

 

[bubbaking]

But we're talking about dittos.....

 

[Kaffei]

who gives a fk just **** them

 

[bubbaking]

I'm pretty sure spacing is of utmost importance in nearly all MUs. Hmmm, now that I think about it, can some1 bring up an example of spacing w/ Yoshi? I know it exists but I can't think of it...

 

[Kaffei]

but yoshi is gross

 

[bubbaking]

Gross to play or gross as a character?

 

[Kaffei]

Nah just gross =D

 

[Terry]

But in dittos, if you space well, isn't the opponent spaced well also? Or are you both poorly spaced??? What the ****?!

 

[Zoler]

Yes and no. Like, with Fox for example, I think the matchup in which spacing matters the most is vs. Marth - you really can't afford to **** up your spaced shield pressure because his shieldgrab is that much bigger, and in every situation in which spacing matters in a Fox ditto, spacing matters as much or more vs. Marth (dashdancing him out, maintaining a good range etc.)

I guess it's more or less splitting hairs at this point, though. I know what you're talking about, and agree to some extent.

I totally agree with the fox vs marth mu, the first hit is crazy important in that matchup, and marth.. yea we all know that girl loves spacing.

I more meant like dittos in general not only fox dittos.

 

[bubbaking]

But in dittos, if you space well, isn't the opponent spaced well also? Or are you both poorly spaced??? What the ****?!

Spacing is actually extremely important in the Marth ditto, and just spacing well does not mean it's the same for your opponent. Here's an example: two Marths are a certain distance from each other. One Marth fsmashes and whiffs, and immediately after, the other Marth fsmashes and hits the outstretched arm of the first Marth, probably earning himself a tipper (the epitomy of excellent spacing). Even at 0, this fsmash will probably send the Marth a great distance and put him in an extremely bad position.

 

[omgwtfToph]

But we're talking about dittos.....

I know we were talking about dittos lol. I said that I thought really precise spacing was more important in Fox vs. Marth (for example) than the Fox ditto, in response to Zoler saying he thought spacing was most important in dittos.

 

[bubbaking]

I see what you're saying. IMO, spacing might be more important in certain dittos than others (like the Marth ditto I mentioned), but it's probably mostly as you put it.

 

[Luma]

nedved you really have to work on your egdeguards against falcon.
just think about his 2 options, either going to the egde or onstage, there is no need for you to go too offensive, just look at your first match on DL64, the first couple egdeguards are completly missed because he simply pulled back when you wanted to attack and he got the egde

 

[Nedved]

Luma : I will, i will ! =)

 

[Strong Badam]

Spacing is really ****ing important in every match-up don't be stupid guys.

 

[silentSWAG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asRSb9VCP44&list=FLWHCXPl_FEgq4_cRw_jQ98A&index=3&feature=plpp_video

critique me first match, there needs to be a thread for this

 

[Kaffei]

I think you need to go for more grabs and punish his approaches more with like cc grab or cc ftilt or something i dunno
u roll at the ledge a lot too
a lot of the time the falcon just did dj to grab the ledge after u threw/hit him off just WD back and grab the ledge so he's forced to up b or something idk lol.. like you kept trying to dsmash him on the ledge... no that doesn't work if he sweet spots it, just go off stage and nair to intercept his up b. nair will beat it like 99% of the time or just space a slap/bair.. actually u can probably needle those too. yea that's probably safer

be more confident about ur punishes too like at 0:49, orly just did a FH nair for no reason and you rolled back...?? why didn't u like slap him or uair or something

 

[joejoe22802]

Kaffei pretty much said everything I wanted to say. But in addition, I don't like how you respond to his pressure. A lot of it was nair with some dairs. And after they connected with the shield you would just roll. If not you would drop your shield and get hit by the gentlemen. I think a good way to deal with this kind of stuff is wd oos into tilts. You used rolls and fj nair oos which he punished pretty easily. Don't be too afraid of holding the shield. Its bad against grabs of course, but only when he actually threatens with grabs.

 

[bubbaking]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asRSb9VCP44&list=FLWHCXPl_FEgq4_cRw_jQ98A&index=3&feature=plpp_video

critique me first match, there needs to be a thread for this

Yes, there does. Anyway, my little two cents is that you should become more conisistent in being able to tech chase Falcon. Also, IMO, it's better to space a fair into grab if they shield than to space it into dsmash. They just continue to block it and the lag of the dsmash gets u killed.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I used to think nair oos was good against Falcon. Now I know better. Gentleman & dash away mixups are too effective against it.

 

[Juushichi]

What do you think can beat it now?

Particularly gentlemen's. I had a problem dealing with gentlemen's on my sheild when I was playing Sheik the other day. Do we WD OOS?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think if Falcon is pressuring your shield, it's honestly best to just back off.

 

[Kaffei]

I think if Falcon is pressuring your shield, it's honestly best to just back off.

I have a question, David. (Can I call you that? It feels weird to call you KK in my head, lol.)
When C.Falcon nairs my shield, I try to grab but he grabs me first.. Does he have shield advantage or is my timing just way off? @___@