Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[hectohertz]

if you've grabbed a spacy, at what percent does d-throw -> tilt -> aerial combo become plausible/better than d-throw -> regrab? and which tilt?

edit: and if there a percent/di when u-throw is better than dthrow? (I know, sacriledge)


i read kk's matchup guide against marth that really lays out what to do when you d-throw at different percents and different di's. hoping for the same sorta thing against fox/falco.

 

[Kaffei]

I think around 80 percent you can do uthrow to dtilt? idk lol. *waiting for KK's response*

 

[gm jack]

Utilt can get an easy tilt on fast fallers at mid/high percents if they don't know they can just dj out. It's also useful for putting people on platforms, if that suits your needs more than a dthrow.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If they don't DI the throw, you can start tilting/dsmashing around 60% i think. Basically this is better because it leads to a slap really fast, which leads to an edgeguard, which leads to you taking a stock. Tech chasing is a little more risky, especially when there are more choices of landing location due to extra air time.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Up throw is ABSOLUTE GARBAGE if they know how to beat it. That said, if they don't, it's pretty good.

Up throw > up tilt starts working around 50 on no DI.

Up throw > d-tilt starts working around 50 on DI away. Not sure when it stops working. Eventually it transitions into up throw > f-tilt around some ungodly percent (like, maybe 90+ but I'm really not sure).

 

[joejoe22802]

I mainly get to play against spacies and falcon and I've recently been thinking if a more aggressive metagame for approach could be created. What I mean by aggressive is approaching more frequently to Create reactions.

I believe the ways this is usually achieved by other characters are through
- Spaced aerials
- Spaced jabs and tilts for continued pressure.
- An escape plan or counterattack if the other character reacts.

Another type of approach I do see very often is WD forward into forward tilt.
I believe this can be very useful out of shield and as a waveland. A good mixup here would be many empty short hops into shield.

I guess the problem of sheiks slower mobility could be a problem.

With that being said, do any of you see any huge holes in this style of play.

 

[Kaffei]

isnt that all just basic stuff

 

[joejoe22802]

I guess it's pretty basic but for the majority of time, matches aren't played like that. It's just an option. I'm just imagining a match with much less "watch me dance around while I wait for you to attack me". I feel like the current meta only reward sheiks that play like that. Whether this can be changed, I don't know. If you watch some tope videos, he just seems like a momentum stopper. This is mainly done with patient play and grabs but I feel like that play style could be mixed with what I was talking about.

 

[ChicknMonkey]

Captain falcon uses his fair alot and it got formally named "the knee."
Sheik also uses fair a decent amount. Is there some term/name for it too? If not, there definatly should be one.

 

[Kaffei]

slap
duh llollo

 

[soap]

sliq used to call it karate chop

 

[hectohertz]

Up throw is ABSOLUTE GARBAGE if they know how to beat it. That said, if they don't, it's pretty good.

Up throw > up tilt starts working around 50 on no DI.

Up throw > d-tilt starts working around 50 on DI away. Not sure when it stops working. Eventually it transitions into up throw > f-tilt around some ungodly percent (like, maybe 90+ but I'm really not sure).

mmmk. so is dthrow the better option? what percent does d-throw -> f-tilt start working? d-throw -> u-tilt? Is one more guaranteed than the other, or is it DI dependent?

 

[Sliq]

The Official Nintendo Power Guide says it is called the Hatchet.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't mind answering percentage questions from time to time, but I would like to remind some of the audience that a great deal of this can be found by turning on a gamecube and testing it themselves for about 2 minutes.

Anyway, d-throw > f-tilt, d-tilt, and u-tilt work at the same percents because all three moves come out frame 5 and their lowest hitboxes hit in roughly the same spot (turn around d-tilt is very hard, though, so I wouldn't recommend it vs DI behind). I'm not sure exactly what percent, but I'd guess around 75%+ it begins to work on Fox, and around 50% on Falco.

Same conditions apply to throwing Falcon. If they DI away you can't make it happen no matter how hard you try. You're stuck with a tech chase.

 

[joejoe22802]

So recently I've been playing against a very aggressive falco. His falco is shaped in the image of Mango specifically really strongarm type player (can't really see him as a Zhu/PP/orShiz type player). There is literally always pressure through main aerials and shines.

After watching videos of Teczero M2K and Amsah, I still have no idea what to do. It just seems that sheik can't compete onstage with this type of play.

Missed grabs lead to huge punishes and lasers or crouch cancels stop spaced aerials. When I try to do nairs out of shield, I often get stuck in shield or grabbed.

Anyone have some insights on this type of thing?

 

[KirbyKaze]

So recently I've been playing against a very aggressive falco. His falco is shaped in the image of Mango specifically really strongarm type player (can't really see him as a Zhu/PP/orShiz type player). There is literally always pressure through main aerials and shines.

After watching videos of Teczero M2K and Amsah, I still have no idea what to do. It just seems that sheik can't compete onstage with this type of play.

Missed grabs lead to huge punishes and lasers or crouch cancels stop spaced aerials. When I try to do nairs out of shield, I often get stuck in shield or grabbed.

Anyone have some insights on this type of thing?

How is DaShizWiz not a "strongarm" type player? He tries to muscle through people with dair more viciously than almost any Falco I've ever seen.

Anyway, if you're getting stuck in shield on nair oos then it's a timing issue. I'm not sure what you mean by "grabbed". If you mean you produce shield grabs accidentally, again, timing issue. If he's shine-grabbing, then you're gonna have to add rolls and sidesteps to your oos repertoire. Or time the nair better (since it technically can work vs shine grab because Sheik is too good).

I would recommend doing a lot of WD oos > dash attack on him if he's pressuring hard with aerial-shines. Dash attack knocks over Falco surprisingly early if he doesn't get a true CC on it and while ground techs are a valid concern, dash attack's knockdown and potential punishment is usually worth the risk; it's difficult to focus on ground teching while doing quick SHFFLs and shine cancels. WD oos > f-tilt or d-tilt at their landing spot is also good.

I would also recommend holding your shield if you're finding your WD oos and nair oos getting stuffed. If Falco is doing early aerials after the shine, unless he's moving back to space or crossing up, you can shield grab those. You also can WD oos or nair oos after an early aerial very easily before he can shine, which is also worth noting. If you can tell what kind of pressure he's going to use, planning an effective counter is a lot easier.

If he's not forcing you to face him with lasers, bair is also really effective. It trumps most of his aerials (except his own bair because of how jump heights wind up working out) and you can d-tilt or whatever in that case.

 

[Kaffei]

KK, your posts da bess

Btw do those apply to vsing Fox, too?

 

[joejoe22802]

Thanks again KK. What I meant about the nair thing is that I get shield pressured really hard and then they start doing grab mixups.

But about the shiz thing. You're right he is like that. He just plays a little more old school with Tech Chase Smashes and stuff like that, that I don't see as much with who I'm playing.

 

[*georgeH]

How would you effectively incorporate dashdancing and pivoting in approaching spacies and falcon? I find I'm missing jc/boosts grabs and such because they see right through my dd and I feel like I may need a few better mixups

 

[KirbyKaze]

KK, your posts da bess

Btw do those apply to vsing Fox, too?

Pretty much, yeah. Difference is that Fox's dair breaks the high-low rules because it's multi-hit.

If they're super skilled and do middle aerials, just WD oos or nair oos after the shine. Save yourself the trouble.

Thanks again KK. What I meant about the nair thing is that I get shield pressured really hard and then they start doing grab mixups.

Just focus on getting out of shield then. WD oos is amazing and you have to be able to do it to survive those MUs. You can technically WD oos on a shine-grab if you time it well; WD oos is a very good generic answer to shield pressure stuff (except FC aerial stuff).

How would you effectively incorporate dashdancing and pivoting in approaching spacies and falcon? I find I'm missing jc/boosts grabs and such because they see right through my dd and I feel like I may need a few better mixups

If you're having trouble with transparency, a general tip is to fluster the opponent or disrupt their plan. Do something different, but effective. I like needles in this case, or simply not approaching and taking the defensive stance. A good way to get people playing a more linear game is to give them the impression that you've shut down other options of theirs, so consider beating a few approaches or charging your needles a bit to see how they react. Simple, non-committal stuff like that. I imagine you could add your dash dancing and whatever in such a way, although I don't really think Sheik's pivot is very good because of her meh range while dash dancing; I prefer dash forward > WD back.

Beyond that, though, this is something you have to just experiment with and mold a style of movement and mix-ups that you can work with. I can't really tell you how to apply things beyond a superficial level because undoubtedly you play differently than me.

 

[Kaffei]

Thanks =D

 

[*georgeH]

Wow good post, I've been trying to apply a "methodical" way of thinking in terms of approaching and spacing and that definately sounded really good to consider thanks

 

[Winston]

Dash attack knocks over Falco surprisingly early if he doesn't get a true CC on it and while ground techs are a valid concern, dash attack's knockdown and potential punishment is usually worth the risk; it's difficult to focus on ground teching while doing quick SHFFLs and shine cancels.

I actually ground tech a ton by accident while pillaring with Falco cause I'm pressing down + L a lot.

Not meant to refute what you said, just felt like mentioning it. Very dependent on the timing of the move that's hitting me, I guess.

 

[stelzig]

What is the best way to DI single climbers chaingrab and at what percentage should I be able to get out of it? I got some practice in with tomber today and one time he managed to pull like 98% on me from chaingrab finishing with a smash follow-up.

I figured that DIing behind popo is best (unless you can reach platform/off-stage of course) as it makes you go straight up, but would like to know for sure how to get out of this safely without ending up getting hit by silly stuff so I get alot more than those already annoying 50-70% (sheeesh, i'm not even sure how long this chaingrab actually works)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

For popo's CG i believe you can jump out around 50% or 60%, but im not positive on that number

 

[stelzig]

Yeh, when DIing behind right? I guess that one time it went for longer was just me not timing it well enough. Just found the moment on vid btw, looks like it was only 90% and the last follow-up was a Fair. So he managed to keep it going till 80% and then even get me with Fair, lol. Glad to hear 50-60 is actually the real number though, that has been my impression for a while too

Can't believe that i'm actually considering going zelda when fighting single climber at higher percentages while i'm at 0, lol. It worked for me every time today, but I guess that's mostly because he doesn't know what to do (neither do I though, but I guess spamming kicks is easier than learning how to fight it xD)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ive been told that zelda > ICs, anyways

 

[KirbyKaze]

Zelda vs. ICs is basically just kicks and f-smash. Everything else can be WD oos punished. D-smash is alright because it hits both sides of you, the leg is invincible, and comes out super fast so it can interrupt WD approaches in a pinch but use sparingly; it's punishable on block (and on hit, at times).

For SoPo's CG, if you're at low percent, just DI away until you go off the level. He can't follow d-throw if you DI off the level. I'd also do that if you're at really high percent because avoiding the bair or smash attack will prevent you from dying. If you're at 60 or so, just DI up and try to jump (and be prepared to DI for bairs, smashes, and other shenanigans).

 

[ChicknMonkey]

Why does Sheik not follow the "i" before "e" rule? Is it because its a name?

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's because Sheik doesn't follow rules as a character.

 

[_eternal]

It's an Arabic term

 

[ChicknMonkey]

Alright then, why would nintendo put an arabic name into a game (OoT) that clearly has roots in medevial Europe?

-not doubting the answer, just zelda-spriacy

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

OoT actually has a lot of arabic symbolism in it. In fact, in some of the later released versions (such as the disc versions for GC) they removed this. This includes the music for the fire temple which was arabic chanting as well as the symbols on the mirror shield and various blocks in the game. For more information check out this page: http://zeldaspeedruns.com/oot/generalknowledge/version-differences

 

[KirbyKaze]

The English language breaks the "I" before "E" rule a ton anyway. It's not really a big deal.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

english is weird

 

[gm jack]

The rule isn't being taught in the UK any more, as their are actually more exceptions to the rule than words that follow it.

 

[-Vocal-]

english is weird

My least favorite part of the English language is silent Ls. Walk? Talk? Salmon? I hate them all.

 

[ChicknMonkey]

Lol im from CT, I know how ****ed up the english language is
and as far as the chanting, i was actually awear of that but a very good point sir

 

[Kaffei]

Does sheik do better vs ICs or Zelda
o-o

Sheik right

 

[KirbyKaze]

Zelda is better vs ICs than Sheiky Sheik in my opinion because Nana dies to twinkle toe at 4%. That's a big deal. Also, Zelda's f-smash is safe on block. This is also a big deal.