Sheik Patch Changes Discussion

[migul]

Am ZSS main, can confirm.

Getting Sonic to 180% will take a long time...the more time that goes on the greater chance of the Sheik player making a mistake and getting punished hard for it by rage Sonic. Although the Sonic player may also make mistakes during a long match Sheik has more trouble turning those mistakes into kills...and Sonic's bthrow still kills, just not quite as early.

I can't imagine what it would be like if ZSS' bair was nerfed, it's the only thing she can reliably kill with in that 110-130% range, once it gets past there she might as well just uair if she has rage. Killing with vanish/bfish/usmash/fsmash all typically require some sort of read, you can't just kill by throwing out bair after bair like ZSS can because those moves are all highly unsafe. Like trying to kill with ZSS' fsmash/flipjumpkick/boost kick...it can be very impractical. Nevertheless I am very interested to see how the meta develops and who will claim the #1 on the tier list in this post-patch world, though theory-smashing is fun for now~

Needles. You can set up a Bfish kill with needles. I also find myself not throwing out ZSS's bair because the hitbox is too small to really catch someone on the ground.

You still haven't addressed how bad Sonic's approach options are. They are BAD. A reliance on spindash mixups and needles having more priority means Sheik wins over Sonic in ground-ground. Sonic also lacks coming down options. This allows Sheik to juggle Sonic for free off a down throw. Needles to bouncing fish are also good kill set ups. Sheik still wins.

I also think Pikachu will be the best, but that's unrelated.

 

[Retro X]

Needles. You can set up a Bfish kill with needles. I also find myself not throwing out ZSS's bair because the hitbox is too small to really catch someone on the ground.

You still haven't addressed how bad Sonic's approach options are. They are BAD. A reliance on spindash mixups and needles having more priority means Sheik wins over Sonic in ground-ground. Sonic also lacks coming down options. This allows Sheik to juggle Sonic for free off a down throw. Needles to bouncing fish are also good kill set ups. Sheik still wins.

I also think Pikachu will be the best, but that's unrelated.

Good luck reliably killing with needles to bfish =__=
I know it works, but it's just so situational...
Sonic's speed makes it difficult to camp him, you can throw needles at him but be careful because if he shields them he can just dash in and punish you much more easily than slower characters. Every trade Sheik makes with Sonic benefits Sonic, and as for landing options Sonic has his spin dash, spinshot, spring to lagless dair to watch out for.
Even if Sheik is winning the game in terms of how much damage she has done, 160% on Sonic and 110% on Sheik puts Sheik in bthrow death range meaning the game is actually even.

We'll just have to see how things play out in the coming months, 6WX/Seagull vs Mr.R/Nietono/Vinnie/False @ EVO is always a possibility.
I still recommend RAR for ZSS but that's not really relevant here either.

 

[migul]

Good luck reliably killing with needles to bfish =__=
I know it works, but it's just so situational...
Sonic's speed makes it difficult to camp him, you can throw needles at him but be careful because if he shields them he can just dash in and punish you much more easily than slower characters. Every trade Sheik makes with Sonic benefits Sonic, and as for landing options Sonic has his spin dash, spinshot, spring to lagless dair to watch out for.
Even if Sheik is winning the game in terms of how much damage she has done, 160% on Sonic and 110% on Sheik puts Sheik in bthrow death range meaning the game is actually even.

We'll just have to see how things play out in the coming months, 6WX/Seagull vs Mr.R/Nietono/Vinnie/False @ EVO is always a possibility.
I still recommend RAR for ZSS but that's not really relevant here either.

So if Needles to Bfish is situational, tell me why Mr. R did it 10 million times at Apex. Sonic's speed still doesn't make up for the fact that his approaches are terrible and he lacks a projectile. Because of this, Sonic is one of the easiest characters to camp on, since you can just shoot out single needles to punish an approach. And if Sheik is at the percent lead, she has no reason to approach Sonic herself, and Sonic has to close out the stock quicker. There's still more ground to make up, and that's what makes a lead. All of Sonic disadvantages are there. He theoretical can't do **** against projectiles in general

 

[Project Crysis]

Regardless of such things Sonic lost the Sheik MU before the patch and he loses after the patch. Needles are the best way to stuff Sonic's approach options especially if she has the lead and then there is Sonic's lack of a hard to gimp recovery. Sheik was the be gimping character before and she still is, just don't let the opponent comeback for free and you should still be doing well.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Braindead is becoming a really misused buzzword. What's braindead about a string that requires high amounts of precision to do?

I can do it so it can't be that hard. lol

 

[Project Crysis]

I can do it so it can't be that hard. lol

Calling any character braindead is just wrong to the player that put in the time to be good with then. In fact you can call a lot of characters brain dead like shulks Nair into whatever combo or Mario and Luigi. Even though they have nice strings that look easy there is still a lot of effort and skill to back them up. IMO I think the term brain dead is over used.

 

[migul]

I can do it so it can't be that hard. lol

Sheik has more tricks and techniques than any other character. IMO shei is one of the hardest characters to master.

 

[Project Crysis]

Sheik has more tricks and techniques than any other character. IMO shei is one of the hardest characters to master.

See everyone this guy gets it she may seem simple at first glance but she's far from it just cause you can Fair a lot doesn't make you a good Sheik player.

 

[Antonykun]

Hmmm I'm just looking at this thread and giggling a bit. It would be laughter but there are plenty of people who see past the "aw man b-air sucks now" anyhows I'm saying this at the risk of preaching to the choir but B-air nerf...really isn't that bad like don't get me wrong is stings A LOT but she is still a character who lives off dominating her opponent and even if it takes her opponent to be at 170% before they die because apparently the safe on block Bouncing Fish will never be used to kill it doesn't matter. Remember Sheik has some of the best damage racking in the game along with amazing frame data 170% for Sheik usually means like 120% for many, many other characters.
I would like to say stuff about "braindead f-air strings" but I'm afraid I'll only speak the language of salt but I will say that in my (limited) experience with Sheik her f-air combos become really difficult to do at higher percents

 

[ArikadoSD]

Boumcing Fish isn't always so safe on shield @ Antonykun

 

[Project Crysis]

I depends it's only safe if A: the character is a slow runner or B: you constantly mix up your landing angle making it hard for your opponent to shark your landing properly

 

[FullMoon]

From what I understand the biggest thing Sheik lost with the patch was ledge trump -> B-Air which I heard was a really good strategy, don't remember ever being on the wrong end of it though.

Sheik does have even more trouble killing now but all of what made her good is still around. For the most part it feels like Diddy and Sheik are both still top tier characters, there's just less of a gap between them and the rest of the cast now.

Fighting Sheik with Greninja didn't become any less of a pain at least >_>.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Gotta pull out that ledge trump burst grenade > reverse bouncing fish tech now.

 

[Project Crysis]

From what I understand the biggest thing Sheik lost with the patch was ledge trump -> B-Air which I heard was a really good strategy, don't remember ever being on the wrong end of it though.

Sheik does have even more trouble killing now but all of what made her good is still around. For the most part it feels like Diddy and Sheik are both still top tier characters, there's just less of a gap between them and the rest of the cast now.

Fighting Sheik with Greninja didn't become any less of a pain at least >_>.

You are very Right though Bair is hard to notice it when it knocks you out your second jump, But for the most part ledge trump -> was a quick and nearly easy way to net a ko at kinda high percents but overall she's still one of the best even though the gap is a tad bit smaller.

 

[Absol]

If anything Rage is sheiks worst match up

 

[Seagull Joe]

Regardless of such things Sonic lost the Sheik MU before the patch and he loses after the patch. Needles are the best way to stuff Sonic's approach options especially if she has the lead and then there is Sonic's lack of a hard to gimp recovery. Sheik was the be gimping character before and she still is, just don't let the opponent comeback for free and you should still be doing well.

wins when burning spindash is legal. I would otherwise say the matchup is even. It's really funny because loses when under 100%, but then rage factors in and he kills around 100% with Bthrow LMFAO. The patch hasn't changed this matchup that much. Rage bthrow needs like 5-10% more on now.

 

[Project Crysis]

wins when burning spindash is legal. I would otherwise say the matchup is even. It's really funny because loses when under 100%, but then rage factors in and he kills around 100% with Bthrow LMFAO. The patch hasn't changed this matchup that much. Rage bthrow needs like 5-10% more on now.

hmmm for some reason it just seemed that Sonic would have a issue with the needles primarily. yeah i know burning spin dash is freaking insane. hmmm really she dies that early to the back throw i haven't checked yet so i didn't know that. so for the most part it's even or barely in Sonics favor?
IS THE SEAGULL JOE REPLYING TO MY COMMENT! (fanboy moment)

 

[Absol]

if rage is literally the reason why a character would have an advantage over sheik then its not even the character. its the damn game mechanics working against us. Just like how vectoring did.

we cant catch a break

 

[Zajice]

wins when burning spindash is legal. I would otherwise say the matchup is even. It's really funny because loses when under 100%, but then rage factors in and he kills around 100% with Bthrow LMFAO. The patch hasn't changed this matchup that much. Rage bthrow needs like 5-10% more on now.

Didn't burning spindash lose the invincibility in this patch though? I heard needles don't go through it anymore.

 

[Seagull Joe]

hmmm for some reason it just seemed that Sonic would have a issue with the needles primarily. yeah i know burning spin dash is freaking insane. hmmm really she dies that early to the back throw i haven't checked yet so i didn't know that. so for the most part it's even or barely in Sonics favor?
IS THE SEAGULL JOE REPLYING TO MY COMMENT! (fanboy moment)

Without customs it's 's favor until rage percents. Then it's 's favor. losing the kill power on her ledge trump bair wasn't even something I considered or thought about, but holy ****...That's a savage nerf O____O. BSD gives reliable weaving in and out vs .

Didn't burning spindash lose the invincibility in this patch though? I heard needles don't go through it anymore.

Yes, but the move itself is still widely fast and combos her the same.

 

[Project Crysis]

Without customs it's 's favor until rage percents. Then it's 's favor. losing the kill power on her ledge trump bair wasn't even something I considered or thought about, but holy ****...That's a savage nerf O____O. BSD gives reliable weaving in and out vs .

Yes, but the move itself is still widely fast and combos her the same.

hmmmm so it sounds like the goal is gimp before rage truly comes into effect, but that is easier said than done.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Honestly, Sheik losing bair as a killing move really isn't as small of a deal as some hipsters claim it is. The "lol bair nerf isn't bad ya'all are just scrubs" (shoutouts @ Antonykun ) attitude is really annoying. Having no kill move does two things primarily: the 1st is to play recklessly (or not) trying to find a kill set-up, which aren't so easy to land, and the 2nd is playing extremely defensively after the 100-130% benchmark and camping with needles to bring them to a point where fair or ftilt kills. Both of those situations are really bad. Bair combos into bouncing fish, great, but so did fair and nair post-patch (and still do) so we really didn't need that combo anyway.

Sheik will need to rely on edgeguarding more than ever now, try hard to fish for a kill setup, or camp with needles until ftilt/fair kill.

 

[Absol]

There is nothing hard about landing a tipper dtilt for a 100% kill set up, or an inner dtilt for a true 50-50 kill set up

 

[Antonykun]

Honestly, Sheik losing bair as a killing move really isn't as small of a big deal as some hipsters claim it is. The "lol bair nerf isn't bad ya'all are just scrubs" (shoutouts @ Antonykun ) attitude is really annoying. Having no kill move does two things primarily: the 1st is to play recklessly (or not) trying to find a kill set-up, which aren't so easy to land, and the 2nd is playing extremely defensively after the 100-130% benchmark and camping with needles to bring them to a point where fair or ftilt kills. Both of those situations are really bad. Bair combos into bouncing fish, great, but so did fair and nair post-patch (and still do) so we really didn't need that combo anyway.

Sheik will need to rely on edgeguarding more than ever now, try hard to fish for a kill setup, or camp with needles until ftilt/fair kill.

First of all I said it isn't THAT bad reading through some of these post way too many people sounded like Sheik not being able to kill makes her Swordfighter (IE bad) heck I'll quote myself.

anyhows I'm saying this at the risk of preaching to the choir but B-air nerf...really isn't that bad like don't get me wrong is stings A LOT but she is still a character who lives off dominating her opponent...

I know B-air nerf stings a lot (losing a frame 4 kill move will hurt anyone especially if they have as many set-ups for it as Sheik had) but please do remember that Sheik still has amazing movement specs, amazing frame data, amazing recovery, 3 amazing specials.
Point is she is still amazing even if she kills at god knows how late
like seriously I can name 5 different nerfs that would hurt her more than a bair nerf

I would argue more but seriously I'm here trying to say that one of my worst Matchups as Villager main is still good and that makes me feel unswell

 

[BJN39]

(Lol I see so many people who likely came here the same way I did.)

Sheiks will end up making the nerf work (BAir to BF?!) and/or perfect their ways to connect their (limited) KO moves.

Just like last time when BF, and UAir were nerfed, everyone will make a bunch of noise in a "Sheik was neutered" thread, and then eventually get over it and return to owning the battlefield as ninja Zelda, or quit playing sheik for a worse character.

 

[Project Crysis]

(Lol I see so many people who likely came here the same way I did.)

Sheiks will end up making the nerf work (BAir to BF?!) and/or perfect their ways to connect their (limited) KO moves.

Just like last time when BF, and UAir were nerfed, everyone will make a bunch of noise in a "Sheik was neutered" thread, and then eventually get over it and return to owning the battlefield as ninja Zelda, or quit playing sheik for a worse character.

That's very true we got to where we are by learning and we shall keep doing that. Also B-air at low % can trip people so that can lead into cool things also at high % it forces your opponent into a quick tech situation and if they miss it make them pay for it. Stuff like this just goes to show that back air is still a ggood move you just have to use it differently.

 

[migul]

Without customs it's 's favor until rage percents. Then it's 's favor. losing the kill power on her ledge trump bair wasn't even something I considered or thought about, but holy ****...That's a savage nerf O____O. BSD gives reliable weaving in and out vs .

Yes, but the move itself is still widely fast and combos her the same.

My assessment of this matchup.
Neutral:
Sheik definitively wins this situation . Needles stuff whatever approach Sonic has and upon him landing you can kind of... combo him for free. There aren't many things Sonic can do to challenge this kind of pressure and whatever he can do is unreliable. (Lack of landing options really sucks.)
Air-Ground
If Sonic is in the air he is kinda screwed. When Sheik is in the air it can also be problematic for her, but not as much since she actually has landing options.
Air-Air
Sheik probably win here to, seeing how all of her moves are faster than Sonic's and she has that famous Fair string to boot.
Killing
Sheik will Frametrap Sonic to death. A simple sour Bair to U Smash is all it takes to finish a stock. (Legit frametrap) Sonic still has his kill options however.
Even though this looks like a 7-3 Sheik MU, Sonic's ability to turn the match around should never be counted out, so it's 57-43ish. This doesn't really change with customs, because while Sonic has BSD, Sheik has penetrating needles, which took Sonic's best approaches (BSD, Run shield) and kind of wrecks them, since they are pretty much needles with Sheildbreaking properties.
EDIT: If Sonic is not at max rage B-Throw will be killing at >200% I couldn't kill an Olimar with backthrow with max rage on the ledge of Battlefield until 160% fresh. Sonic now has good kill options kappa

 

[Absol]

Not only that but that 100% rage bthrow will only kill sheik if its fresh, and if sonic pivot grabs you with about 3/4 of stage control anyway. A smart sheik will use their safe moves to never get grabbed anyway

 

[TCL | Harp & Dagger]

I honestly have not noticed that big of a difference. Maybe it's because I don't kill with back air a lot, but I have done some off stage bair strings post-patch that wouldn't have been possible before. Before, you would hit them with bair and the ywould go too far out to hit them with another, but now you can follow up and hit with another, bouncing fish and/or vanish to ledge. It puts them just a little bit further than before, but every bit helps in edgeguarding and gimping. Ledge trump -> bair doesn't kill until later, but it can still lead into a bouncing fish or further edgeguarding.

 

[Jaxas]

There is nothing hard about landing a tipper dtilt for a 100% kill set up, or an inner dtilt for a true 50-50 kill set up

It's certainly easier than some characters have it, but if you can reliably land that Dtilt then teach me your ways lol; I'm crap and hitting it unless I'm spaced Ftilting someone's shield and I read the drop or something.

Do we have any way to set up Dtilt, by the way?

 

[Absol]

It's certainly easier than some characters have it, but if you can reliably land that Dtilt then teach me your ways lol; I'm crap and hitting it unless I'm spaced Ftilting someone's shield and I read the drop or somthing

Do we have any way to set up Dtilt, by the way?

Crouch sliding. Ducking a move since we have a god like crawl. Catching the 2 frame edge opening. Anti air. The fact that the more stale it is, the easier it is to set up. Makes an amazing combo tool.

I did some testing and learned that dtilt tipper gives no di control to the victim, and they cant airdodge until the reach the apex of the knock back. Giving us a good rule of thumb of how it works since they only go straight up. Pretty much hit them while they're rising. While the patch notes say otherwise sheiks dtilt also got less knock back, confirmed by Tristan. Which is actually a huge buff.

We spider crawl now

Edit: and do you know how EASY it is to power shield with sheiks crouch hotbox? RIP ROBs Nair. Dtilt tipper OoS is a really good option

 

[TCL | Harp & Dagger]

Crouch sliding. Ducking a move since we have a god like crawl. Catching the 2 frame edge opening. Anti air. The fact that the more stale it is, the easier it is to set up. Makes an amazing combo tool.

I did some testing and learned that dtilt tipper gives no di control to the victim, and they cant airdodge until the reach the apex of the knock back. Giving us a good rule of thumb of how it works since they only go straight up. Pretty much hit them while they're rising. While the patch notes say otherwise sheiks dtilt also got less knock back, confirmed by Tristan. Which is actually a huge buff.

We spider crawl now

Edit: and do you know how EASY it is to power shield with sheiks crouch hotbox? RIP ROBs Nair. Dtilt tipper OoS is a really good option

I agree, I've been using dtilt a lot more recently, and it's really a great move. It's so good for spacing, especially with tools like the back-slide, perfect pivot, and sometimes even waveneedle. As you said, you can just crawl towards them as well. I've also started using utilt in early combos because that move does around 11% I believe if you hit both hits. Both of thosetilts are very underused, mainly dtilt though.

 

[majinvegeta010688]

Can someone update the op with all of the changes to sheik and all of the future changes people find. This will make it easier for people to see all of these things. Plus, you can still stage spike with the back air at high percentages so it isn't a total loss.

 

[sadn3ss]

I was really disappointed we lost one of our best most reliable kill options leaving us we smash attacks vanish and bouncing fish this also hurts our off stage game quiet a bit because our ledge trumps now kill later. The buffs the vanish and bouncing fish were nice but I really feel like nintendo skrewed us over with this patch.

 

[Zajice]

With customs on, grav nade > sweetspotted up smash is still a pretty reliable kill option.

 

[Absol]

with customs on throwing the nade at someone as a projectile, and then throwing out fully charged penetrating needles break shields. So thats a "kill" option

 

[Syde7]

Apologies for not perusing all 150+ posts in this thread... so I apologize if this has been covered... but with the nerf to B-air, I've had some moderate success with using it as set-up for bouncing fish. I find its a bit easier to land a B-air (Sweet or sourspot) than a sourspot N-air as a set-up. Can anyone else confirm if this is a legit set-up now? Im sure its DI & percent dependent in some regards, if even feasible. Thx in advance.


Edit: Went back a couple of pages and this was talked about briefly. My apologies.

 

[BlastHappyNinja]

with customs on throwing the nade at someone as a projectile, and then throwing out fully charged penetrating needles break shields. So thats a "kill" option

I always thought that her spiking up b option was rather lulzy, considering her already ridiculous recovery that can make up for its lack of distance.

 

[Uncertain Title]

I always thought that her spiking up b option was rather lulzy, considering her already ridiculous recovery that can make up for its lack of distance.

It does dramatically lower her kill options, that's for sure.

 

[Girthquake]

You're all basically sucking your own and each others ***** flattering yourselves saying Sheik is the hardest character to play lmfao.