Sheik Patch Changes Discussion

[Zajice]

Confirmed Changes
- Bair nerfed from (11% / 10% / 5% ) to (8% / 7% / 5%), strong / medium / light. Knockback significantly reduced. No longer a kill move.
- Dtilt nerfed from 7.5% to 5%.


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Original Post:

No thread for it yet, and we'll probably need it.

Already I can tell bair was nerfed. Less damage (8% sweetspotted) and horribly nerfed knockback. Didn't kill Mario at center stage until 191%. (Did in training, so no rage.) One less kill option.

 

[Zajice]

I'm an idiot and hit reply instead of edit, My apologies.

 

[Irnkman]

I noticed this too, I'm not crazy then. It was my main kill move too.

 

[Zorai]

1.) Bair is never going to kill anymore.
2.) Dash attack nerfed
3.) All smashes besides upsmash seem weaker

Can't seem to figure out what else is different.

 

[Zajice]

I'm currently testing kill % and damage of every move in training on Mario, center stage. I'll post it all in a bit for comparison.

 

[exnecross]

Bair should still stage spike as before, which is where I get the most kills from it. I can't tell if f-air has had KB increase, but I really hope it didn't.

 

[suarsuar]

- ftilt unchanged
- utilt unchanged
- dtilt changed to 5% from 7%
- fsmash unchanged
- dsmash unchanged
- usmash unchanged
- jab unchanged
- fthrow unchanged
- dthrow unchanged
- uthrow unchanged
- vanish kills 6% earlier ~ knockback difference
- burst grenade unchanged
- needles unchanged
- bouncing fish kills 2% earlier ~ knock back difference
- uair unchanged
- dair unchanged
- fair unchanged
- nair unchanged
- bair does 2% less damage

My current findings were tested on BF and FD using Mario.

These are all relative and tested via the reset button for perfect positioning.

Rage was not tested since it's training mode.

Vanish and Bouncing Fish are better.

 

[exnecross]

I really hope that is true, it would help make up for the giant bair nerf somewhat. dtilt damage is not a big deal, but KB changes would be.

 

[Jaxas]

- ftilt unchanged
- utilt unchanged
- dtilt changed to 5% from 7%
- fsmash unchanged
- dsmash unchanged
- usmash unchanged
- jab unchanged
- fthrow unchanged
- dthrow unchanged
- uthrow unchanged
- vanish kills 6% earlier ~ knockback difference
- burst grenade unchanged
- needles unchanged
- bouncing fish kills 2% earlier ~ knock back difference
- uair unchanged
- dair unchanged
- fair unchanged
- nair unchanged
- bair does 2% less damage

My current findings were tested on BF and FD using Mario.

These are all relative and tested via the reset button for perfect positioning.

Vanish and Bouncing Fish are better.

Sounds awesome!
This is purely % though, right? So things like frame data aren't confirmed yet?

 

[Zajice]

Welp, looks like suarsuar's got it covered.

For the things he listed as changed:
All on Mario, center stage of FD in training mode with Mario set to control.

D-tilt
5%
Kills: 263% sweetspot, 279% weak hit

Bair
5% weak hit, 7% medium hit, 8% sweetspot
Kills: 191% sweetspot, 214% medium hit , 316% weak hit

Vanish
12%, 5% reappearing
Kills:129%

Bouncing Fish
12%
Kills: 153%


And since suar didn't list it.
B-throw
7%
Kills: Doesn't.

Dunno what all her moves did before exactly, but that's probably unchanged.

 

[suarsuar]

Sounds awesome!
This is purely % though, right? So things like frame data aren't confirmed yet?

Haha correct, it's a little too late in the morning for that nonsense.

But she overall feels very similar.

I was scared that f-air would be destroyed but it seems to be whole.

 

[suarsuar]

Welp, looks like suarsuar's got it covered.

For the things he listed as changed:
All on Mario, center stage of FD in training mode.

D-tilt
5%
Kills: 263% sweetspot, 279% weak hit

Bair
5%, 7% sweetspot
Kills: 215%

Vanish
12%, 5% reappearing
Kills:129%

Bouncing Fish
12%
Kills: 153%


And since suar didn't list it.
B-throw
7%
Kills: Doesn't.

Dunno what all her moves did before exactly, but that's probably unchanged.

I was very surprised that both Vanish and Bouncing Fish kill earlier.

I love my Vanish mix ups.

 

[Zajice]

Thanks for saving me some work, yo.

 

[exnecross]

I was very surprised that both Vanish and Bouncing Fish kill earlier.

I love my Vanish mix ups.

That seems like a really random change. And, nice as it may be, over all she has been significantly nerfed. Oh well, we all saw it coming.

 

[suarsuar]

That seems like a really random change. And, nice as it may be, over all she has been significantly nerfed. Oh well, we all saw it coming.

I don't know about that.

Having two moves kill earlier is a buff in my book.

Though with knock back decrease, bair could serve as a combo extension so don't dismiss it yet.

I honestly though she was going to get mutilated.

Even Diddy himself was tapped a bit but still plays the same.

These patches are very subtle and if you were anyone else, you wouldn't notice.

Also, my findings were tested without rage.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I don't play sheik but did her needle (uncharged) get more lag? Can't seem to spam it fast anymore.

Also bair is 8% 7% 5%.

 

[exnecross]

I don't know about that.

Having two moves kill earlier is a buff in my book.

Though with knock back decrease, bair could serve as a combo extension so don't dismiss it yet.

I honestly though she was going to get mutilated.

Even Diddy himself was tapped a bit but still plays the same.

These patches are very subtle and if you were anyone else, you wouldn't notice.

Also, my findings were tested without rage.

I can't see having bfish and vanish kill slightly earlier making up for the removal of a kill option and the % decrease.

 

[suarsuar]

I can't see having bfish and vanish kill slightly earlier making up for the removal of a kill option and the % decrease.

Fair.

I mean it benefits my play style in particular but yes, it cannot be said that the old bair will not be missed.

 

[Zajice]

What if we find combos into bouncing fish with it?

 

[Jaxas]

So, with the Dtilt nerf, does the Dtilt->Uair kill confirm still work? If someone could test that it would be awesome!

 

[merril]

I don't know how accurate this is, but it feels like her d-throw sends people up almost out of reach of a short hop fair.

 

[_Tree]

Needle Fidgeting is still in. Crouch sliding is still in.

I can now exhale.

 

[Jlp]

B Reverse Slide Cancel?

 

[_Tree]

B Reverse Slide Cancel?

Still in.

I swear D-tilt has more endlag. Can anyone else test this so I can feel like I'm not a crazy person?

 

[Envoy_]

Needle Fidgeting is still in. Crouch sliding is still in.

I can now exhale.

I almost wanted to make a second account to like this twice. I'm so happy right now.

 

[Zajice]

I wasn't testing the 8% hit for the bairs. That kills at 191%. Edited my posts to reflect that.


Edit:
Also, been testing, and bair totally combos into bouncing fish at the right percents.


Still testing on Mario here. Assuming they're at said percents when the bair hits.

If they don't tech after the bair hits at these percents, you can hit them with bouncing fish.
At 38%, the 8% hit starts making them slam into the ground. This one will work until about 50%.
At 44%, the 7% hit will set up the same situation. This will work until around 55%. The difference between these two isn't large, but it's there.
At 99%, the 5% hit sets this up. Works until about 115%
These may all true combo, and for longer, if the bair hits them off stage. Didn't test it at all though.

Now for actual combos.
At 47-50%, the 8% hit straight up combos. But not much further from that. It's very specific since 8% hits further, so the 8% is actually kind of detrimental for doing this.
The 7% hit however, straight up combos at 50%. I got this to work until about 74%
The 5% hit started to combo at about 117%. This worked until about 134%. This one could potentially kill in the right spot. 130%ish killed Mario center stage.

Keep in mind, this is without any rage, on Mario, with no DI, so this could vary wildly depending on the situation and character. It's probably most worth keeping in mind for the bigger targets. I dunno how much this will help anything in the long run, but it's at least something we can do with the nerfed bair.

 

[Jlp]

Thanks @ _Tree
My flatmate is telling me the fair has more KB now. Im in uni right now so I can't check, this isn't true?

 

[Zajice]

Really doesn't seem like it. The fair strings still work, and it's not like it's ever gonna be fresh enough to kill anyway.

 

[Jlp]

Really doesn't seem like it. The fair strings still work, and it's not like it's ever gonna be fresh enough to kill anyway.

Phew. I really didn't want the added KB. Fair strings are too much fun. Thanks.

 

[iAft3rbang]

RIP bair, I'll miss you bro

 

[Saikyoshi]

She's still braindead with infinite Fair strings, so Sakurai hasn't balanced her at all.

 

[New_Dumal]

I think we will suffer from the Bair nerf much more, much more then some people are thinking.

 

[Genghis_Connor]

Ugh bair nerf. It sucks to have literally ONE kill move now in the form of bouncing fish, but at least bair will lead into it sometimes. Sucks because like half my kills were bair edgeguards offstage, but I'll adapt I guess.

 

[New_Dumal]

It's possible to Bair->BF now ?
It was possible with some crazy%and the sourspot before, wasn't ?

I would make some test if my Wii U was there.

 

[iAft3rbang]

Ugh bair nerf. It sucks to have literally ONE kill move now in the form of bouncing fish, but at least bair will lead into it sometimes. Sucks because like half my kills were bair edgeguards offstage, but I'll adapt I guess.

Dont forget Dthrow -> vanish kills and dthrow -> empty SH upsmash tipper

 

[iAft3rbang]

Anyone knows if bair can still stage spike ?

 

[ArikadoSD]

She's still braindead with infinite Fair strings, so Sakurai hasn't balanced her at all.

Braindead is becoming a really misused buzzword. What's braindead about a string that requires high amounts of precision to do?

And it's not like diddy where dthrow to 2 uairs (pre-patch) would do like 27-30, with Sheik you gotta do Fthrow and then 5 or 6 fairs to do that amount of damage, that's not really braindead to me.

Please don't come to this thread to whine and ***** and moan.

edit: regarding bair nerf.. Sheik literally has no reliable killing moves now, only kill set ups and bouncing fish reads, and edgeguarding. Nice. Lovely. Fantastic.

 

[suarsuar]

Braindead is becoming a really misused buzzword. What's braindead about a string that requires high amounts of precision to do?

And it's not like diddy where dthrow to 2 uairs (pre-patch) would do like 27-30, with Sheik you gotta do Fthrow and then 5 or 6 fairs to do that amount of damage, that's not really braindead to me.

Please don't come to this thread to whine and ***** and moan.

edit: regarding bair nerf.. Sheik literally has no reliable killing moves now, only kill set ups and bouncing fish reads, and edgeguarding. Nice. Lovely. Fantastic.

To be honest if you were only killing with bair before, then you were not using her optimally.

Yes it's always been hard and now it may not be so apparent with bair gone but we need to be creative.

 

[Zankoku]

Having mained Sheik throughout Brawl, the level of complaints there are for Sheik now having a weaker bair given the rest of her character's inherent qualities never stops amusing me. I guess the nerf removes her only really killing aerial that happened to have both immense range and safety, but she still got plenty of reward for making correct reads, none of which have been nerfed (and according to suarsuar, two of which have been buffed a bit).

 

[Saikyoshi]

If Uair was untouched as well, I fail to see how she has no safe, reliable, and early kill options now.