Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[HFlash]

At some point someone got rid of my amazing Lucina differences thread as a sticky @ Locuan
http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/

The only part really wrong there is 12.5% difference, Lucina has had almost her entire moveset given extra damage buffs to compensate since then. Oh and that marth's jab is 1 frame faster than lucina's.

Lucina may have an easier time "mentally" in some matches, say like a super light weight character like Pikachu where fsmash is killing super early. But ever since the jab (which favours marth because it spaces tippers), up tilt (it combos 'easier' than Lucina as she uniquely has her up tilt increase in damage in later frames) and nair (tipper being extremely safe and extremely powerful), landing lag buffs in general (makes fairs to tipper fsmash a true combo at kill percent due to fair sourspot, Lucina's combos for shorter periods) it's feasible for Marth to basically outplay Lucina in the long run and does not need to rely on forward smash reads/punishes for success. Obviously neither does she (as much anymore), but their reward differences for being in control are just so drastically skewed towards Marth in every way; she essentially fits the mold to me of being just training-wheels-tier. Although that doesn't stop her from being a strong character in her own right because she's also getting all of the buffs we are, just their critical difference of having sour/sweet spots are going to differentiate them in a way where Marth is also better.

Lucina does have first hit nair to fsmash at a reasonable percent though, and while Marth does have the same thing it's a lot more difficult to space a tipper from it.

Thank you Shaya! Getting this response, was the whole point to my post earlier. I also agree with your opinion on Lucina. She really does feel like the lower skill ceiling character, who although does need to space, doesn't quite reap the benifits Marth does from spacing correctly. It would be interesting to see what some of the Lucina mains would have to say about the paragraph plus you posted on their respective boards. With the slew of buffs and quite possibly more to come, Marth's viability as a solid competitive threat is being more and more apparent, and we should as a whole, keep stimulating conversation, and help the newcomers with genuine interest. I have only really picked up SM4SH Marth since the last patch, (first time at least for me, he feels smooth coming from Brawl Marth) and appreciate the help.

As a suggestion, I think that that thread and the above post should at the very least be in the Marth competitive thread or possibly more appropriately, at the Marth FAQ stickied post.

 

[ReRaze]

....it's feasible for Marth to basically outplay Lucina in the long run...

Agree with everything you said except for that bit.....outplaying someone would kinda depend on the player so its feasible but it goes both ways lol...unless i misunderstood or read something wrong

Also when you said Lucina has an easier time "mentally" i thought that really applied to me lol since thats pretty much the one of the main reasons I use Lucina over marth, (e.g I kinda like using my fsmash without having to think about a tipper.) Even though I honestly know marth is a better char with a higher skill cap. They're so simliar though so I don't really feel like im missing out on too much.

When you said that ^^^^ it also brought something up in my head lol. its probably just me but its really become a stereotype for me that all marth mains are intelligent lmao. Just reading all your posts give off that vibe, also, how your social thread is filled with very informative and useful discussions, moreso than some gameplay/metagame discussion threads lol. (especially when compared to the lucina social thread which has too much fluff and fanart )

Seriously though, you guys really put in alot of work for this char. Just wanna say keep up the great work in driving this character's return to his former glory (hopefully)

Reading over this post again it looks like i was just blurting out whatever was on my mind lol. don't mind me i'm only slightly high )

 

[Shaya]

I didn't mean in their match up, but in general across many interactions.
like lucina has a 15% better interaction X% of the time, while Marth has a 25% better interaction Y% of the time. In reality it's more because sour spots are good as well. The way Marth is now, that Y% is feasibly going to be just the same if not more often than the X%.

And eh "mentally", personally I fear playing Lucina because I feel like I -can't- kill. But that's why I say in a match up like Pikachu, well you have a really 'strong' button that can kill really early because otherwise kills didn't come cheap (before buffs that is).

But being a Marth main is a culture. Always has been/will.

 

[Locuan]

At some point someone got rid of my amazing Lucina differences thread as a sticky @ Locuan
http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/

Hey we needed space for all the other threads D: Although it could be again seeing as the match-up thread isn't really used anymore. Seriously, I have been wanting to see if someone had the commitment to take over...

As a suggestion, I think that that thread and the above post should at the very least be in the Marth competitive thread or possibly more appropriately, at the Marth FAQ stickied post.

It is indicated in the table of contents for Lucina. The question about their differences had never popped up on the Marth boards. It was usually a topic of very, um, passionate discussions on the Lucina boards.

 

[Vipermoon]

@ HFlash

I felt like it so here you go...

In order from when I catch them:

• They shouldn't have put a percentage increase/decrease on sweetspots and sourspots. They are way too inconsistent. Especially for Roy.
• Don't care about the fully charged situation, doesn't matter. But they used the wrong "sourspot" for Roy's Fsmash. The real one is really weak and they somehow missed it.
  
• Marth's Dsmash has two sourspots. They also missed Lucina's "tipper" Dsmash. They completely missed that Roy's Dsmash has a super weak sourspot.
• Again, they kept missing sour spots. Like Marth and Roy's Ftilt (and they probably couldn't tell Roy's Ftilt has two sourspots) and many more. I don't like inconsistency. How could you mention some sour spots and not others?
• Didn't mention that Roy's up B is weaker in the air
• Roy's neutral B is FLARE blade and it's not true that it's a OHKO on any stage at any percent
• Roy's side B doesn't have EACH hit going up, side, and down. Only the same amount as the other two's.
• Roy's side B is WEAKER (does 1% less in each hit both sour and sweet spot) than Dancing Blade and is the SAME speed (and since 1.1.0 it has shorter timing windows than DB). It is EASIER to hit your opponent with all hits of the attack.
• Dolphin Slash can also be angled both straight up and diagonal.
• Marth/Lucina's Dair does not need to be a "tipper." It's not a tipper, it's frame 11.
• Roy's neutral air has MORE landing lag (in both patches). It does not autocancel on the first swing. That is impossible. Roy's Nair has horrible autocancel just like his clone brethren.

Their stack-up opinions:

• IDK who has the best jab but they're wrong it doesn't come out faster. Frame 5 for all their jabs. Can't say it has more follow-ups either, that's debateable. Marth's isn't second place for the range and hitlag modifiers. It's second because, as Shaya said, it sets up into tippers unlike Lucina. Also Marth's tipper jab does more knockback so it combos into things earlier than Lucina.
• I'm going to say this once because they'll keep putting her in 3rd using it as a reason. The range difference between M & L is so miniscule that it's not worth mentioning over and over. It makes it seem like the range difference is huge to the viewers.
• I'd argue that Marth has better tilts, especially in 1.1.0 but no wrong info here so we'll move on...
• Marth's shield breaker is WAY better than Lucina's. If you break their shield and you can't take their stock with it then what's the point? That's why Marth's is better. And even without hitting shields the tipper is easy enough and the knockback is crazy enough that's it worth it. IDK if Marth's SBer has more range.
• Lucina's side B is definitely worse than Marth's. Marth's does less hit lag so it's harder to react to and safer on shield. Also you definitely do get tippers. I'd be a millionaire if I had a dollar for every early ledge kill I got with DB forward 1, 2, 3, 4 tipper or early-ish vertical kills with forward 1, 2, 3, Up 4 automatic tippers.
• They are close on the counter windows. It activates 2 frames later, and yes, is 2 frames less total. BUT it does NOT have more lag than Marcina's. Where did they get that?
• Roy's Uspecial is slower, weak in the air, has super armor on the ground only (not invincibility), and kill later when near the ledge. It's also super easy to edgeguard.
• Aerials do not go to Roy.
• Marth's (assume Lucina applies for aerials in many cases) Nair has more range, less landing lag, and now does comparable damage and much more knockback. All aerials (now) have less landing lag. Marth's Fair comes out way faster. Marth's Uair is much stronger. Marth's Bair has more active frames. It reaches above and below and the tipper is usually stronger. Dair again has much less landing lag and comes out much quicker. The spike is tough but Roy's isn't that easy either. Most of all, Marth is in the air longer to take better advantage of the crappy autocancel windows and edgeguard easier/do floaty things on stage with the aerials.
• Lucina's base knockback is usually not higher than Marth's and that's not what matters at high percents.
• Roy's Fsmash has better horizontal reach but they overall aren't wrong because Marth hits above and below with it.
• Usmash does not favor Roy. It has very little horizontal range so it's not useful out of shield (which is usually what an Usmash is useful for).
• Dsmash favors Roy because while it has Brawl range it does real damage and slightly less lag. There pretty much isn't anything worse than M & L's Dsmash. Though Roy has one less active frame on his back hit of Dsmash.
• Marth's Dsmash does NOT come out faster on the front and back hit. It's the same. Where do they get this? They are spreading the falsest of information and I hate it.
• IDK who has better throws. Probably Roy but at the same time Roy's Bthrow is useless for anything (like getting others off-stage), Roy's Uthrow is weaker and has a more DI-able angle, and his combo throws all have the same DI solutions (forward) so less mix-ups there.
• IDK about punish game because Marth has out of shield Usmash, a faster up B out of shield, and shield pushback tends to space tipper Fsmashes.
• Recovery is NOT a tie. OMG. Marth and Lucina are very hard to gimp. Using DS and their aerials they can sometimes gimp you for even attempting to gimp them. Roy is almost free off-stage and he can't recover as far or as deep even with the better air speed.

Lucina CANNOT be a more aggressive character. Damn you guys!

They never officially mentioned that Marth and Lucina have better walk speed while Roy completely obliterates them in air speed and run speed. Did they mention he's heavier? I don't remember hearing that either.

Last mistake: Roy can't be a high tier character right now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Vipermoon with that FIRE EMBLEM SCIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENCE!!!!

 

[HFlash]

@ HFlash

I felt like it so here you go...

In order from when I catch them:

• They shouldn't have put a percentage increase/decrease on sweetspots and sourspots. They are way too inconsistent. Especially for Roy.
• Don't care about the fully charged situation, doesn't matter. But they used the wrong "sourspot" for Roy's Fsmash. The real one is really weak and they somehow missed it.
  
• Marth's Dsmash has two sourspots. They also missed Lucina's "tipper" Dsmash. They completely missed that Roy's Dsmash has a super weak sourspot.
• Again, they kept missing sour spots. Like Marth and Roy's Ftilt (and they probably couldn't tell Roy's Ftilt has two sourspots) and many more. I don't like inconsistency. How could you mention some sour spots and not others?
• Didn't mention that Roy's up B is weaker in the air
• Roy's neutral B is FLARE blade and it's not true that it's a OHKO on any stage at any percent
• Roy's side B doesn't have EACH hit going up, side, and down. Only the same amount as the other two's.
• Roy's side B is WEAKER (does 1% less in each hit both sour and sweet spot) than Dancing Blade and is the SAME speed (and since 1.1.0 it has shorter timing windows than DB). It is EASIER to hit your opponent with all hits of the attack.
• Dolphin Slash can also be angled both straight up and diagonal.
• Marth/Lucina's Dair does not need to be a "tipper." It's not a tipper, it's frame 11.
• Roy's neutral air has MORE landing lag (in both patches). It does not autocancel on the first swing. That is impossible. Roy's Nair has horrible autocancel just like his clone brethren.

Their stack-up opinions:

• IDK who has the best jab but they're wrong it doesn't come out faster. Frame 5 for all their jabs. Can't say it has more follow-ups either, that's debateable. Marth's isn't second place for the range and hitlag modifiers. It's second because, as Shaya said, it sets up into tippers unlike Lucina. Also Marth's tipper jab does more knockback so it combos into things earlier than Lucina.
• I'm going to say this once because they'll keep putting her in 3rd using it as a reason. The range difference between M & L is so miniscule that it's not worth mentioning over and over. It makes it seem like the range difference is huge to the viewers.
• I'd argue that Marth has better tilts, especially in 1.1.0 but no wrong info here so we'll move on...
• Marth's shield breaker is WAY better than Lucina's. If you break their shield and you can't take their stock with it then what's the point? That's why Marth's is better. And even without hitting shields the tipper is easy enough and the knockback is crazy enough that's it worth it. IDK if Marth's SBer has more range.
• Lucina's side B is definitely worse than Marth's. Marth's does less hit lag so it's harder to react to and safer on shield. Also you definitely do get tippers. I'd be a millionaire if I had a dollar for every early ledge kill I got with DB forward 1, 2, 3, 4 tipper or early-ish vertical kills with forward 1, 2, 3, Up 4 automatic tippers.
• They are close on the counter windows. It activates 2 frames later, and yes, is 2 frames less total. BUT it does NOT have more lag than Marcina's. Where did they get that?
• Roy's Uspecial is slower, weak in the air, has super armor on the ground only (not invincibility), and kill later when near the ledge. It's also super easy to edgeguard.
• Aerials do not go to Roy.
• Marth's (assume Lucina applies for aerials in many cases) Nair has more range, less landing lag, and now does comparable damage and much more knockback. All aerials (now) have less landing lag. Marth's Fair comes out way faster. Marth's Uair is much stronger. Marth's Bair has more active frames. It reaches above and below and the tipper is usually stronger. Dair again has much less landing lag and comes out much quicker. The spike is tough but Roy's isn't that easy either. Most of all, Marth is in the air longer to take better advantage of the crappy autocancel windows and edgeguard easier/do floaty things on stage with the aerials.
• Lucina's base knockback is usually not higher than Marth's and that's not what matters at high percents.
• Roy's Fsmash has better horizontal reach but they overall aren't wrong because Marth hits above and below with it.
• Usmash does not favor Roy. It has very little horizontal range so it's not useful out of shield (which is usually what an Usmash is useful for).
• Dsmash favors Roy because while it has Brawl range it does real damage and slightly less lag. There pretty much isn't anything worse than M & L's Dsmash. Though Roy has one less active frame on his back hit of Dsmash.
• Marth's Dsmash does NOT come out faster on the front and back hit. It's the same. Where do they get this? They are spreading the falsest of information and I hate it.
• IDK who has better throws. Probably Roy but at the same time Roy's Bthrow is useless for anything (like getting others off-stage), Roy's Uthrow is weaker and has a more DI-able angle, and his combo throws all have the same DI solutions (forward) so less mix-ups there.
• IDK about punish game because Marth has out of shield Usmash, a faster up B out of shield, and shield pushback tends to space tipper Fsmashes.
• Recovery is NOT a tie. OMG. Marth and Lucina are very hard to gimp. Using DS and their aerials they can sometimes gimp you for even attempting to gimp them. Roy is almost free off-stage and he can't recover as far or as deep even with the better air speed.

Lucina CANNOT be a more aggressive character. Damn you guys!

They never officially mentioned that Marth and Lucina have better walk speed while Roy completely obliterates them in air speed and run speed. Did they mention he's heavier? I don't remember hearing that either.

Roy can't be a high tier character right now.

I'm reading this with this face

I never would have imagined that the seemingly correct video could get SO MUCH wrong. I really do appreciate the time it took to dissect the video and show just how bad the video was. It's funny how I study science IRL and underestimated just how false it was. One thing I may nit pick though is that I personally like Roy's throws better than Marcina, particularly dthrow. It combos better at a bigger range of percentages for Roy, which ultimately, gives him more room to tack on extra percent from throws. I'M NOT SAYING Marcina have bad throws (like dthrow at mid/high percents can set up air juggle situations) but I think the more guaranteed percentage situations gives Roy the edge in the throw department.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah, Roy probably overall has the better throws especially since they do more damage. But they all have a fairly bad throw game (Roy's is overrated). Too much end lag after throws.

They all have great (and equal between eachother) grab range though.

 

[A_Kae]

Hey we needed space for all the other threads D: Although it could be again seeing as the match-up thread isn't really used anymore. Seriously, I have been wanting to see if someone had the commitment to take over...

I'd be willing to help/take over matchup threads. Just tell me what needs to be done and I'm sure that I can do it.

-

Anyways, Vipermoon64 covered everything I can think of for that video. Excellent work there.

This is why people need to do actual research and talk to people who know the characters before doing a comparison or analysis on them. It's really important. Otherwise you end up doing a lot more harm than good.

False statements that sound like they could be correct if you don't already know about the subject are really dangerous. Does the person who made that have a smashboards account? Because they need to be either educated or stopped entirely.

Edit: Spelling and grammar corrections

 

[Locuan]

I'd be willing to help/take over matchup threads. Just tell me what needs to be done and I'm sure that I can do it.

Awesome! If you want, send me a PM with the questions you might have and I'll answer soon. Today is weekly day and hopefully I'll give Marcina some justice. I'll also be doing commentary. In other words, getting ready for that

 

[HFlash]

I'd be willing to help/take over matchup threads. Just tell me what needs to be done and I'm sure that I can do it.

-

Anyways, Vipermoon64 covered everything I can think of for that video. Excellent work there.

This is why people need to do actual research and talk to people who know the characters before doing a comparison or analysis on them. It's really important. Otherwise you end up doing a lot more harm than good.

False statements that sound like they could be correct if you don't already know about the subject are really dangerous. Does the person who made that have a smashboards account? Because they need to be either educated or stopped entirely.

Edit: Spelling and grammar corrections

I tried looking him up on Smash boards and couldn't find him. I could contact him on our behalf via Twitter or Twitch. The guy is pretty popular actually with almost 9000 subs and many videos.

 

[kj22]

Knowledge is power.

 

[Saki-]

Awesome! If you want, send me a PM with the questions you might have and I'll answer soon. Today is weekly day and hopefully I'll give Marcina some justice. I'll also be doing commentary. In other words, getting ready for that

I'm down for helping on the Lucina end as well. If you're wanting more than one person on that.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Well at least you can now upload replays at 720 p with no capture card, so that won't happen again. ;p.

Sorry for gramatical errors, sending this via phone.

Too bad you can only upload replays under 3 minutes from the game. :[

 

[Vipermoon]

Too bad you can only upload replays under 3 minutes from the game. :[

Nintendo always has to F up. Especially in Smash. Tourney mode. Game-release level character balance/glitches. Replays. For Glory FD only with little to no player skill match making. No adventure mode. No target tests.

But this is off topic lol.

 

[Shaya]

I feel like there is match making on for glory because whenever I reach towards 90-100% win rates over recent runs I stop getting any Australians or random West Coast Americans ever and it's just Japanese suffering (as in, my pace of matches goes down to 1 every 15 minutes because of how frequently they drop from Gaijins and no run backs ever), literally until I lose and then suddenly a wave of normal/local opponents again. Oh and those Japanese who I play tend to be either really good or Captain Falcons (god he is cancer personified).

Possible confirmation bias but it's still been very annoying and has happened to me three or four times recently now. It incentivizes me to lose to break it up lol.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Does anyone have any tips for beating D3? I struggle with him sometimes and I end up just not knowing what to do against him sometimes lol.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah even in eastern time US I get Japan but I can't find a reason to it. It's just some kind of Japanese lobby they put me in and I have to exit and return till I get out of it. Next time I'll pay attention to my win streak. I wish I could fight Japanese players but the input lag.

 

[ben1707]

I'm a bit confused over Smash 4 Marth as a whole. Why do you guys think that he's so low on general consensus? I personally think it's that he has little representation on big tournaments. What do you guys think should be changed for him to move to high/top tier?

 

[SilverForUbers]

I'm a bit confused over Smash 4 Marth as a whole. Why do you guys think that he's so low on general consensus? I personally think it's that he has little representation on big tournaments. What do you guys think should be changed for him to move to high/top tier?

90% of us actually think he's at least high mid tier so idk what you're talking about.

But I think he needs less lag on his grabs and maybe more damage on them as well, having that much kb with that little damage is kinda absurd.

Less end lag/better iasa on at least his fair or uair.

Those would probably make him rise on the tier list but if I'm wrong then my bad.

 

[Vipermoon]

He is an above average character, but here is what can make him high tier:

Autocancel windows that aren't crap
Hitboxes that aren't crap
More damage on throws
Redesigned Dash Attack and Dsmash.

 

[Langston777]

the only thing i want right now is better hitboxes on a few moves in particular

i used to beg for more damage off throws but all the recent buffs marth's gotten has been more than satisfying. not what i wanted, but makes him better all the same.

i don't know, i've been feeling a weird confidence with marth lately. perhaps it's because my playtime has been devoted to palutena and zelda recently. sometimes a break from the hero king is all i need to refresh my interest in playing him the right way.

 

[Shaya]

Dolphin slash hitbox buff -ESSENTIAL-
either some more lag off of aerials (landing lag or auto cancels) or damage buffs. I think throw damage buffs (scaled to similar knockback still) would be super sufficient and would leave him in a state of not really needing anything that wouldn't otherwise make him silly.

Aerial buffs are feasibly making him silly though.

 

[HFlash]

Nintendo always has to F up. Especially in Smash. Tourney mode. Game-release level character balance/glitches. Replays. For Glory FD only with little to no player skill match making. No adventure mode. No target tests.

But this is off topic lol.

I can't really defend nintendo on most of those points, but the reason why there wasn't an adventure mode in smash 4 was
because before Brawl was even released, all of the cut scenes were leaked and according to Sakurai, that ruins the entire experience, and thought that the same thing would happen, hence no story mode. Also per Sakurai, if you like competitive games, then smash is not the game for you. He had sort of a "traumatic" experience with hard core fighting games, and wanted smash to be anything but that (which is dumb because smash can and is both). Therefore, in designing the game, they really did not put competitive people like us really into consideration.

I'm a bit confused over Smash 4 Marth as a whole. Why do you guys think that he's so low on general consensus? I personally think it's that he has little representation on big tournaments. What do you guys think should be changed for him to move to high/top tier?

Release Marth and the current Marth are two completely different characters. Since the last patch, Marth is getting some results in Tourney aka, False getting 17th in Smash Con which is a respectable placing. I would put him around Mid-tier myself AT WORST.

the only thing i want right now is better hitboxes on a few moves in particular

i used to beg for more damage off throws but all the recent buffs marth's gotten has been more than satisfying. not what i wanted, but makes him better all the same.

i don't know, i've been feeling a weird confidence with marth lately. perhaps it's because my playtime has been devoted to palutena and zelda recently. sometimes a break from the hero king is all i need to refresh my interest in playing him the right way.

Honestly, not having reliable 50/50 situations, or reliably able to get free 15-20% off of throws is what is stopping Marth atm to being a top 10 character. I just try to focus on the fact that his counter and shield breaker is better and take advantages of his strengths as opposed to complaining about his weaknesses. Also, sometimes, you need a break from doing w.e so that you can wash off the habits you were having, and sort of working from scratch. This feeling of plateauing and giving it a break, to come back and be better than I was before has happened to me in multiple games (League of Legends, Smash, Destiny, Gears of War, Halo, etc.).

Too bad you can only upload replays under 3 minutes from the game. :[

Yea, I thought that I could get away with not buying a capture card but then, that stupid little detail was added. But on the other hand, as much as I want to complain, the fact that the game is being patched at all, added new content, balancing the game, etc. is alot more than I really expected upon release.

Dolphin slash hitbox buff -ESSENTIAL-
either some more lag off of aerials (landing lag or auto cancels) or damage buffs. I think throw damage buffs (scaled to similar knockback still) would be super sufficient and would leave him in a state of not really needing anything that wouldn't otherwise make him silly.

Aerial buffs are feasibly making him silly though.

As someone who uses Marth in the air alot, I would take aerial buffs over throw buffs any day of the week. Imo, mobility will always be more important than guaranteed damage. If the reverse were true, Ness and Luigi would be # 1 and 2, which is why at least in high levels of play, they are getting kind of bodied by the faster top tiers.

 

[PK Gaming]

My (FE)brothers from another (FE)mother, how's it hanging?

Anyone else get the Marth amiibo? I plan on getting one asap for Fire Emblem: Fates (along with the rest of the FE amiibos) so I can run them on my team.

 

[Shaya]

I have one.
Is the sword meant to look like it's slightly bent or am I just unlucky? :<
Hanging pretty lanky, Marth's sword needs to straighten up.

easy to get most amiibos in aussie land, only bought it recently and there were many more in a second store I went by (to grab two ZSS~)

 

[Chalice]

So it's pretty much established that Marth is like a high mid tier character at this point due to all the buffs

Yet I still see a lot of places where Roy is considered better. MY question is that how does Marth stack up to the higher tiers compared to Roy?

 

[Vipermoon]

I got the Marth amiibo off Amazon for like $28 a few weeks ago just so I can have it.

Idk about the sword being bent but his "shirt" (whatever it is) sticks out too far at the bottom and his back is TOO straight. There's something wrong with his arm placement too, just looks awkward. All of these things contribute to this weird posture lol.

 

[Shaya]

As someone who uses Marth in the air alot, I would take aerial buffs over throw buffs any day of the week. Imo, mobility will always be more important than guaranteed damage. If the reverse were true, Ness and Luigi would be # 1 and 2, which is why at least in high levels of play, they are getting kind of bodied by the faster top tiers.

The reality is that Marth is really close to having reliable hit confirms into tipper forward smash. That's broken. Stupid even. More damage probably wouldn't hurt that (well, if fair got 1% both on both hits it would .. possibly be a nerf to that 'broken' without knockback adjustments). But yeah, any more lag off is dangerzone.

As a character, Marth is based on fundamentals; reactionary choices and covering options. Grab is super important to his game play because shield is the logical answer to all his best tools and people anticipating attacks only can easily punish you, so being able to fast fall into grab or just plainly dash grab in situations is necessary for beating good players. We don't need free combos, but we could do with it being more rewarding seeing as we don't have them.

It would round out Marth in a way that constrains him while rounding him off. His ability to get grabs is a strength he inherently has, and buffing strengths ['overtuning' in extreme cases but likely not here] in small ways over removing 'weaknesses' just makes them better generally without breaking them. Just like taking some numbers away from an overtuned/overpowered character's great tools (Falcon bair/uair, diddy uair/fair, sheik fair/bair/uair) keeps them very good in all cases we've seen and not dramatic enough to cull their high-ish tier+ viability.

 

[Chalice]

I got the Marth amiibo off Amazon for like $28 a few weeks ago just so I can have it.

Idk about the sword being bent but his "shirt" (whatever it is) sticks out too far at the bottom and his back is TOO straight. There's something wrong with his arm placement too, just looks awkward. All of these things contribute to this weird posture lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb3N01lm6P8

I got turned off from getting the Marth amiibo and amiibos in general lol

 

[HFlash]

The reality is that Marth is really close to having reliable hit confirms into tipper forward smash. That's broken. Stupid even. More damage probably wouldn't hurt that (well, if fair got 1% both on both hits it would .. possibly be a nerf to that 'broken' without knockback adjustments). But yeah, any more lag off is dangerzone.

As a character, Marth is based on fundamentals; reactionary choices and covering options. Grab is super important to his game play because shield is the logical answer to all his best tools and people anticipating attacks only can easily punish you, so being able to fast fall into grab or just plainly dash grab in situations is necessary for beating good players. We don't need free combos, but we could do with it being more rewarding seeing as we don't have them.

It would round out Marth in a way that constrains him while rounding him off. His ability to get grabs is a strength he inherently has, and buffing strengths ['overtuning' in extreme cases but likely not here] in small ways over removing 'weaknesses' just makes them better generally without breaking them. Just like taking some numbers away from an overtuned/overpowered character's great tools (Falcon bair/uair, diddy uair/fair, sheik fair/bair/uair) keeps them very good in all cases we've seen and not dramatic enough to cull their high-ish tier+ viability.

I see the point you are making here. The improved frame data on aerial moves could be game breaking. When I was speaking earlier, I meant a little bit less landing lag on aerials, not make them faster like giving marth the fair speed shiek has. That would lead to the hit confirms to tipper fsmash like you were saying. How do you feel about SB? I have been adding it on my repertoire, where I condition people into shielding my constant aerials, and randomly do a SH SB which leads into stupidly early stocks. It is alot easier to react to than a tomahawk grab, but because the reward is so high, harder to punish (due to recent patches), I see it as a possible alternative to using grab so much. I haven't really mastered b reversing yet, but I can only imagine how creative you can mix up your game using that move in conjunction with that AT to focus on breaking shields, as opposed to getting the 8% or so you would get from a grab at marth's current state. I do know that having good grab follow ups is essential in this game, and one of the common denominators between the top tier character, but could SB be the way to dance around that?

 

[Shaya]

Shieldbreaker...
Absolutely not. I've described how to use it before, but the way it's used on wifi kinda revolts me. If you're a true Marth main shieldbreaker is a trump card move, not standard usage.

Shieldbreaker is used on people you are expecting to shield from a state at which they could not shield before hand. This requires using shieldbreaker in frame advantage, not in neutral (any use in neutral = wifi strategy) and then reading/reacting to their response while you charge it [learn the timing for the second charge of 12% as this is really potent and can break near full shields], if they dodge or roll you can hold the charge and kill them, if you think they'll hold shield you can release it. The end lag buff on this recently is nice to making the risk of trying to force this scenario worthwhile (if they power shield it or you can't reach after their roll, or time a dodge properly it can get you killed).

This is similar to how ZSS would hit you with something and charge down smash. Difference here is this thing doesn't actually beat shields unless it breaks them, it's not safe enough. It can also be started in the air and doesn't lose to every forward air in the game.

 

[Chalice]

So it's pretty much established that Marth is like a high mid tier character at this point due to all the buffs

Yet I still see a lot of places where Roy is considered better. MY question is that how does Marth stack up to the higher tiers compared to Roy?

No input on this?

 

[Shaya]

Sometimes I don't have the patience to deal with repeating myself on certain things every other day.
Forgive.

In short, Marth has better air control and slightly better range/start up, it results in him generally being safer which means he does better against better characters usually.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yep, Shield Breaker is to be sparingly used in advantage. That is where it shines.

But Shaya in this game SB charges on a y=x slope. Unless you meant something else by "second charge of 12%"?

As I mentioned in the first post of this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/conditioning-your-opponents-shield-for-the-break.407649/
At 12% (or 13% tipper) the damage and shield damage scaling is enough to break a full HP shield.

@ Chalice Also Marth's off-stage game is really good and Roy is usually going to be the victim off-stage.

 

[Chalice]

Good to know. I've had a lot more success on For Glory with Marth than Roy.

Funny thing too is that I relearned the game by playing Marth. Marth demands fundamentals and forcing myself to play a character like that whom I also like very much got me up to speed quickly. I played Melee and Brawl as a kid (6-12 years old) and always played Marth and Roy. I never really understood the meaning behind the Tipper until now where I'm older.

I owe a lot to the Hero King lol

Also I found some good footage of MVG Gunblade wrecking some Mario, and Sheik. I'll put them on the Marth video thread

 

[Shaya]

Well there you go. I always break a hit shield with the second charge but I felt like I've seen an anecdotal instance when it had not.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Rage doesn't affect Shield Damage right? Only Shield Stun/Shield Push?

 

[A_Kae]

Rage doesn't affect Shield Damage right? Only Shield Stun/Shield Push?

All of those are damage based, and rage doesn't affect damage.

 

[Buffoon]

Does anyone have any tips for beating D3? I struggle with him sometimes and I end up just not knowing what to do against him sometimes lol.

I had lots of trouble with D3 players before I started baiting out most of their attacks; try to get a D3 player to act first, then punish.

What are your main problems with the D3 matchup?

the only thing i want right now is better hitboxes on a few moves in particular.

I recall a scenario where Marth's F-tilt completely missed Lucina, who's dash attack also missed Marth despite her being dead in front of his chest plate.

Also, change his D-air; the move demands WAY too much commitment and precision for a spike that rarely connects.