Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Shaya]

Brawl auto cancel would be great... sh rising dair not auto cancelling is a significant downer on a niche out of shield option in Brawl (full hop still can, but you can't hit low height people from it; nor does it AC on fast fall). I've actually started to sh dair oos a bit more now though because of those recent buffs.

I feel the fact his tipper strike for it is as weak as it is is stupid. Compare it to Falcon's "sour spot". Ridiculous. It's so legitimately meh. I'm guessing the only niche/reason it is the way it is because it probably combos into crescent slash fast fallen now/before.

The spike being weak is neither here nor there, they're definitely dying to it before any other aerial would off stage. The height someone gets from a grounded spike though is very low at nearly all percent. Strengthening that would reduce it's abilities on stage, even if it's an average option because it can be teched.

Basically this move is only good for it's "sour" sour spot. Sending upwards, good horizontal range but below you.
That by itself is in an alright spot, the rest not so much.

I kinda doubt they're going to change ACs at this stage though. Why haven't they yet, honestly?
Only AC buffs I'm aware of was on Ike's forward air. The only nerf of an AC i'm aware of is on Diddy's up air.

BLEGH. Down Air AC is probably more important than Fair buffs (because fair is in an alright spot, AC would be good, but another 2 frames off the landing lag is feasibly pushing him into high/top tier).

But I still really really want to see Dash Attack "buffed". Sakurai angle on it is pretty meh, melee one would be awesome. It does suffice as a niche kill move near and around the ledge + an easier way to catch people being hit into the ground than other things. But imagine if it sent behind you in that situation? would we be pissed it didn't kill if it could combo into an aerial or fsmash at low percent? iono.

 

[Vipermoon]

Dash Attack is actually a 45 degree angle btw.

But yeah a Melee Dash Attack angle would be really cool but it would need the Melee IASA 40 to be feasible (I can almost taste DA > tipper Usmash).

For DA, I think a slight frame speed modifier so that it hits on say frame 12 (or even 11) and ends a bit earlier and an increase in knockback growth on the tipper (10 higher is good) is all it needs.

 

[Halfminded]

Hello Smash 4 Marth people! I've found myself playing more Smash 4 recently since I'm too lazy to correct my PM files, but I enjoy myself none the less.

It's funny, I used to feel clueless when I picked up Marth here, even though I had quite enough experience in all of his appearances to be called competent. Now something has clicked, and I feel just a bit closer to getting a handle on him. Truth be told I can see what I want to do, but I can't control myself without a GC controller, heh. I was just wondering, how much difference would you say having a GC controller vs. a 3DS make on Marth play?

 

[CURRY]

Huh. I've been using FH dair OoS instead of sh dair, but I just realized that FH dair would be just about as useful as an empty hop out of shield because of how late the hitbox comes out.
Even as a mixup... why do I never get punished for FH dairing though? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Probably because all I've been playing is FG, lol.
Trying out sh dair now, wow. It's so much better than fullhop dair OoS. ok.

Also, lol @ saying that a 2% buff on sourspot/sweetspot fair hitboxes would make Marth high/top tier... I'm not questioning your reasoning, but I find it funny because a 7%/10% -> 9%/12% buff is still 1% away from Marth's crazy stupid fair in Brawl.
Man, Brawl Marth's fair was stupid.

But dash attack... I still feel like it's useful enough as it is, as his tool for punishing when dash -> fair or dash -> dancing blade would be too slow. It was a niche move in other games as well, so why do we want buffs in the first place?
I mean, both dair AND bair were made into (more) viable landing options, so why not?

 

[Langston777]

(I may be a bad example, not being a great player, but) last weekend I fought a Fox online...jeez, he had to be a tournament level player, I couldn't even breath. Marth felt so helpless lol I'm sure I could have done much better but still, it made me feel Marth had no chance in that matchup (providing Fox is played like a beast).
Too bad he left after the first match.

fox is freeplay af online, it's almost impossible to punish any of his dumb approaches.

so playing marth who relies on a lot of punishing and a lot of frame perfect spacing... it's nigh unwinnable to be quite honest.

how much difference would you say having a GC controller vs. a 3DS make on Marth play?

seeing 3DS and Marth in the same sentence makes me want to cringe

don't do it man
don't

 

[Halfminded]

seeing 3DS and Marth in the same sentence makes me want to cringe

don't do it man
don't

Too late that's all I got. But Lord help me the day I lay fingers on a GC setup.

 

[CURRY]

Wouldn't Marth be one of the easiest to use on the 3DS? I mean, you just walk around and jump and press A. You're not even as reliant on DASHING as others are since your walk is just so goddamn fast.
Marth's not too fast in terms of attacks, so you don't really need to spam buttons. He's not combo-heavy, so things like fastfalling uairs or something aren't as important to him as for others.
I remember Shaya saying he uses A button for Marth aerials. I've heard that Hungrybox doesn't use the c-stick on his Puff, but I don't know if that's true or not. It's very possible to get a good Marth without the c-stick.
With the A+B smash added in Smash 4, that just adds more options for 3DSers-- you can now do stuff like foxtrot -> fsmash.

On a second thought, foxtrotting and the foxtrot dashdance pivot thing are things that Marth is more reliant on than other characters. And B-reverse Shieldbreaker is a really nice option against people overcommitting on punishing landings. These things, I imagine, would be pretty hard with the circle pad.

I guess every character loses something from WiiU -> 3DS. I would still say that Marth probably doesn't lose as much as other characters do though.

 

[Shaya]

I basically move my hands around a lot with varying use of either stick for efficiency. I use A often because I can jump (with tap jump) and have another finger on the A button and after inputting the jump moving the analog over to what aerial I want to do.

I mean if it's anything, prior to WiiU, I thought Marth could still be a high tier, even if he was heavily nerfed. Better control / America really started to show how flawed he was.

Full hop dair was safe in Brawl.
And did I just say SH Dair OoS in Brawl? Whoops, no way.
Just that full hop dair would hit most of the grounded cast, while now only sh dair will hit them in smash 4. And you have a nerfed auto cancel on it too (so full hop dair landing on a battlefield platform for example would auto cancel, very helpful; you could fast fall out of the full hop with the auto cancel window too).

And fair was "broken" in Brawl compared to now due to a frame 24 auto cancel with only 8 frames landing lag on a move that did 3% more damage.
So yeah, probably wouldn't necessarily make him high/top tier, but it would make fair a lot safer on shield than it is, which would be great. lol.

 

[Vipermoon]

Even full hop Nair doesn't AC on a BF platform thanks to fall speed.

Fair in previous games was 27 AC btw.

 

[Halfminded]

To be fairly honest, I didn't find it hard to get used to 3DS controls for Marth. Getting competent with him only required me to not be booty at the game. Though I soon found that I flub some series of inputs due to the notch-less circle pad and lack of c-stick (I'm a dirty yellow sticker).

I suppose the Wii U version would give other characters more control, but I think having our own control improvement would make getting tippers that much more easier, or at least more interesting.

 

[Langston777]

he obviously is playable on 3ds but... once you get used to GC you realize how much easier it is to dash dance, perfect pivot, walk, RAR bair, and just space yourself in general. i have problems with all my characters on 3ds, not just marth, but i do believe marth is hindered more than most by the controls.

i go back and forth from wii u and 3ds just to play different people and i get frustrated with 3ds controls sometimes. feels like my movement just gets limited.

 

[ReRaze]

Wouldn't Marth be one of the easiest to use on the 3DS? I mean, you just walk around and jump and press A. You're not even as reliant on DASHING as others are since your walk is just so goddamn fast.
Marth's not too fast in terms of attacks, so you don't really need to spam buttons. He's not combo-heavy, so things like fastfalling uairs or something aren't as important to him as for others.
I remember Shaya saying he uses A button for Marth aerials. I've heard that Hungrybox doesn't use the c-stick on his Puff, but I don't know if that's true or not. It's very possible to get a good Marth without the c-stick.
With the A+B smash added in Smash 4, that just adds more options for 3DSers-- you can now do stuff like foxtrot -> fsmash.

On a second thought, foxtrotting and the foxtrot dashdance pivot thing are things that Marth is more reliant on than other characters. And B-reverse Shieldbreaker is a really nice option against people overcommitting on punishing landings. These things, I imagine, would be pretty hard with the circle pad.

I guess every character loses something from WiiU -> 3DS. I would still say that Marth probably doesn't lose as much as other characters do though.

- Falling Uairs are one of Marcina's main combo tool
- You could alway do foxtrot fsmash without A+B Smash
- Its not as hard as you think to do b-reverse and fox trot with circle pad unless you have a stiff/broken one. Marth isn't reliant on foxtrotting, like you said it's better to walk.

I agree with pretty much everything else you said though

 

[CURRY]

-Yeah, the juggles with falling uair. Obviously it's for catching early airdodges-- I don't rely on it that much, maybe I should start implementing it.
-Never knew about the foxtrot fsmash thing without A+B smash. Ehh, I'm probably rarely going to ever play without a c-stick though. Is it just that you set an extra (shoulder) button to smash attack or something?
-Circle pad feels like horror in Gamestop's 3DS Smash demo Q.Q but I'll take your word for it.

lol.... Marth being top tier no matter what...
He has excellent movement speed and a fast sword with insane range, so what could go wrong? :/
It was almost hard to believe that Sakurai was able to find a way to nerf Marth while keeping him kind of "in character" with what he was in previous games. He's not really rushdown anymore, but yknow, he's still "fast".
I was really surprised with what he did with Meta Knight though. MK didn't feel like himself anymore at the start of Smash 4 because of his lack of range and speed. I guess that kind of dramatic change to his "character" in Smash 4 had to happen to balance him, though.
I thought that Sonic would probably be top tier because his speed being in his character makes him pretty hard to buff without making OP-level changes. I mean, look what happened to PM. IIRC, wasn't Sonic incredibly dominant at first? Welp. Sonic's pretty up there in Smash 4, and I think he's going to stay that way in future Smash games if there ever IS any more. (lol no way. But here's to Marth rising to top tier in the next game though. :L)
Bowser had some weird changes, lol.
Zelda... she just needs a COMPLETE character change. She's pretty much un-viable on the competitive level, and on the casual level, she's a really annoying spammer with her neutral and side-B. Three games and still low tier? That's kind of ridiculous.

 

[ReRaze]

-Yeah, the juggles with falling uair. Obviously it's for catching early airdodges-- I don't rely on it that much, maybe I should start implementing it.
-Never knew about the foxtrot fsmash thing without A+B smash. Ehh, I'm probably rarely going to ever play without a c-stick though. Is it just that you set an extra (shoulder) button to smash attack or something?
-Circle pad feels like horror in Gamestop's 3DS Smash demo Q.Q but I'll take your word for it.

lol.... Marth being top tier no matter what...
He has excellent movement speed and a fast sword with insane range, so what could go wrong? :/
It was almost hard to believe that Sakurai was able to find a way to nerf Marth while keeping him kind of "in character" with what he was in previous games. He's not really rushdown anymore, but yknow, he's still "fast".
I was really surprised with what he did with Meta Knight though. MK didn't feel like himself anymore at the start of Smash 4 because of his lack of range and speed. I guess that kind of dramatic change to his "character" in Smash 4 had to happen to balance him, though.
I thought that Sonic would probably be top tier because his speed being in his character makes him pretty hard to buff without making OP-level changes. I mean, look what happened to PM. IIRC, wasn't Sonic incredibly dominant at first? Welp. Sonic's pretty up there in Smash 4, and I think he's going to stay that way in future Smash games if there ever IS any more. (lol no way. But here's to Marth rising to top tier in the next game though. :L)
Bowser had some weird changes, lol.
Zelda... she just needs a COMPLETE character change. She's pretty much un-viable on the competitive level, and on the casual level, she's a really annoying spammer with her neutral and side-B. Three games and still low tier? That's kind of ridiculous.

-Haha yeah you really should start using Falling uairs they combo into pretty much anything, Usmash, Sidesmash, Dancing Blade, At around 40% you can true combo falling uair into tipper fsmash for early kills near the ledge.
-You don't have to change your control scheme at all for foxtrot fsmash, just foxtrot and cancel the last dash with a side smash (so like dash and instantly push A if you are too slow you will do a dash attck)
- Ewww Gamestops controllers are terrible lmao, You should see my local store, the wii U gamepad demo, there isnt even any rubber left on the control sticks.

 

[Xelion]

- Ewww Gamestops controllers are terrible lmao, You should see my local store, the wii U gamepad demo, there isnt even any rubber left on the control sticks.

That's nothing in comparison to my local GameStop. I walked in and a kid was chewing on the Wii Remote and when I was walking out I saw him put it down, and there were teeth marks all along the remote. It was there for about a year until they replaced it.

 

[CURRY]

-Haha yeah you really should start using Falling uairs they combo into pretty much anything, Usmash, Sidesmash, Dancing Blade, At around 40% you can true combo falling uair into tipper fsmash for early kills near the ledge.
-You don't have to change your control scheme at all for foxtrot fsmash, just foxtrot and cancel the last dash with a side smash (so like dash and instantly push A if you are too slow you will do a dash attck)
- Ewww Gamestops controllers are terrible lmao, You should see my local store, the wii U gamepad demo, there isnt even any rubber left on the control sticks.

:T
Circlepad = 3DS, there's no Gamestop 3DS controller as far as I know, haha.
Huh, I never really knew about that sidesmash thing. I just cancelled dash with a c-stick smash because it would always come out as a dash attack.

 

[ReRaze]

:T
Circlepad = 3DS, there's no Gamestop 3DS controller as far as I know, haha.
Huh, I never really knew about that sidesmash thing. I just cancelled dash with a c-stick smash because it would always come out as a dash attack.

lol what i'm getting at here is that most controllers at gsmestop are terribly worn out and badly taken care of (except the new ones). Like, with my own 3DS I can perfect pivot quite easily because the circle pad actually rolls around smoothly.

You can use c stick to do a dash attack cancelled side smash too, although I prefer setting my c stick to tilts so I can auto cancel my uairs.

 

[HFlash]

Don't ever invest in a GS controller. You get what you pay for, and what you get is

Spend the extra few bucks to get controllers from Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, or w.e other gaming company out there

 

[Vipermoon]

Got a tipper Usmash from a sour Dair. The Sheik player was barely able to get a Nair out so it didn't combo but it was really cool because I only had medium rage and it her at 59% (I think) and killed.

Edit: It was a jump cancelled Usmash

 

[Langston777]

how in gods name do you punish zss's down b

help this zss is flipping all over the place and i CAN'T HIT HER

 

[Emblem Lord]

airdodge into her and force the kick. Then slice her boobs off.

 

[Langston777]

didn't know AD would still force the kick

thanks

i couldn't figure out when the hell her i-frames start or end on that move , sometimes i'd hit her out of it and othertimes just complete whiffs

 

[Locuan]

At first I thought to make a Marth Metagame Discussion Thread, but this thread covers that in a lot of situations. So, petition to include Metagame Discussion in title. All in favor?

 

[HFlash]

If you do that, then this really wouldn't be a "casual social thread" right?

 

[Vipermoon]

I don't see the need for it. Marth general seems to cover it all.

 

[Locuan]

It does, but a lot of the newer people don't recognize that when they come to the boards and make a separate thread for topics we've already discussed. Eh, no matter. Carry on Falchion lords.

 

[Halfminded]

So I, uh, got offered some advice on Anther's today.

"Forward smash and counter more, and if they start using shields use shield breaker"

Somehow I feel like that won't be as much help as I was hoping for.

 

[HFlash]

Countering can be good DEPENDING on who you are against, but for the most part, it should be used sparingly.

And... well

and if they start using shields use shield breaker"

 

[Saki-]

So I, uh, got offered some advice on Anther's today.

"Forward smash and counter more, and if they start using shields use shield breaker"

Somehow I feel like that won't be as much help as I was hoping for.

Advising you to throw more fsmashes would probably the best way to see you gimp yourself in the long run. As would any weefee tactic

 

[Langston777]

i recently went back to anthers, only to challenge myself to see how long i can keep a winstreak with my palutena

3-0 so far, grinding is such a chore with 3 stocks though

 

[Halfminded]

Huh, I wasn't paying attention to percent, but this felt like it worked.

Is falling first hit nair > jab > db an actual thing?

 

[HFlash]

So I don't know if this is inappropriate, but I think that this should get stickied (Kurogane Hammer's frame data resource). http://smashboards.com/threads/marths-frame-data.403230/

It seems to have the data from the old patch, but definitely an essential resource that should easier to find for young aspiring Marths (like myself :3).

Edit: Also a video highlighting the differences between Marth Lucina and Roy. Again from the previous patch, but really gives an educated insight on the strengths and weaknesses of each character.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AFY2Qrjvr8

Please let me know if this kind of info doesn't belong here or has been posted already.

 

[Vipermoon]

So I don't know if this is inappropriate, but I think that this should get stickied (Kurogane Hammer's frame data resource). http://smashboards.com/threads/marths-frame-data.403230/

It seems to have the data from the old patch, but definitely an essential resource that should easier to find for young aspiring Marths (like myself :3).

Edit: Also a video highlighting the differences between Marth Lucina and Roy. Again from the previous patch, but really gives an educated insight on the strengths and weaknesses of each character.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AFY2Qrjvr8

Please let me know if this kind of info doesn't belong here or has been posted already.

That actually used to be stickied. But the one that's currently stickied has much more info. KH is a great website though.

Horrible horrible video! I CAN'T STANT IT. SO many mistakes. SO much bad judgement and bad advice. I hate these youtube Smash 4 youtube vids. They are ALWAYS inaccurate in multiple ways. We should have a rule against posting these here because I am running out of hair to pull out. "Don't click on it." But I'm so curious! What will they say? What will they get wrong? What will they forget to mention? What if, bear with me now, it was all correct?

 

[HFlash]

That actually used to be stickied. But the one that's currently stickied has much more info. KH is a great website though.

Horrible horrible video! I CAN'T STANT IT. SO many mistakes. SO much bad judgement and bad advice. I hate these youtube Smash 4 youtube vids. They are ALWAYS inaccurate in multiple ways. We should have a rule against posting these here because I am running out of hair to pull out. "Don't click on it." But I'm so curious! What will they say? What will they get wrong? What will they forget to mention? What if, bear with me now, it was all correct?

I really hope you took the time to watch the video before posting that. The video goes through what percentages certain moves kill at given the same situation, and sort of an overall concept of the difference between the three. It's much better than some of the accusations I've read on Smashboards like: "Lucina is much faster" or "Marth has more range."
Only trying to help.

 

[Halfminded]

I got around four minutes into that video, I'm kind of irked that he's listing kill percentages for fully charged moves only. If the unchanged kill %'s of smashes and nB were given, I'd be ok, but don't leave out the more relevant data.

Another nitpick was how monotonous that % listing voice over was. But that has nothing to do with content.

 

[A_Kae]

I really hope you took the time to watch the video before posting that. The video goes through what percentages certain moves kill at given the same situation, and sort of an overall concept of the difference between the three. It's much better than some of the accusations I've read on Smashboards like: "Lucina is much faster" or "Marth has more range."
Only trying to help.

I just watched it. I'm not particularly impressed with it. Lots of stuff wrong here like @ Vipermoon said. A lot of stuff.

I actually would say it's worse than some of the things you see here on smashboards. Because those people usually obviously don't know what they're talking about and can be safely ignored. But this guy mentions stuff that sounds like it could be legit if you don't know the characters. That's dangerous.

It's good that you're trying to help. It really is. But this video has so much more wrong than right.

 

[HFlash]

What is so wrong about it? Can't learn if I'm not told (or given a reliable resource on the subject that is credible).

 

[Vipermoon]

Of course I watched it. I wouldn't react like that without watching the horrendous second half of the video.

Maybe I'll go through the video again tomorrow and list all the was wrong with the video if I have the stomach for it. I just don't see why dissecting the video matters when you can just ignore their info and opinions (basically pretend it never existed).

 

[HFlash]

Of course I watched it. I wouldn't react like that without watching the horrendous second half of the video.

Maybe I'll go through the video again tomorrow and list all the was wrong with the video if I have the stomach for it. I just don't see why dissecting the video matters when you can just ignore their info and opinions (basically pretend it never existed).

A dissection of the video isn't necessary, but a general idea of the differences between say Lucina and Marth would be appreciated. Call me ignorant, but aside from the differing properties on the swords and Marth being slightly taller, I really don't know anything else that separates the two. I wanted to know if these differences don't matter, or gave slight advantages/disadvantages against certain MU's.

 

[Shaya]

At some point someone got rid of my amazing Lucina differences thread as a sticky @ Locuan
http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/

The only part really wrong there is 12.5% difference, Lucina has had almost her entire moveset given extra damage buffs to compensate since then. Oh and that marth's jab is 1 frame faster than lucina's.

Lucina may have an easier time "mentally" in some matches, say like a super light weight character like Pikachu where fsmash is killing super early. But ever since the jab (which favours marth because it spaces tippers), up tilt (it combos 'easier' than Lucina as she uniquely has her up tilt increase in damage in later frames) and nair (tipper being extremely safe and extremely powerful), landing lag buffs in general (makes fairs to tipper fsmash a true combo at kill percent due to fair sourspot, Lucina's combos for shorter periods) it's feasible for Marth to basically outplay Lucina in the long run and does not need to rely on forward smash reads/punishes for success. Obviously neither does she (as much anymore), but their reward differences for being in control are just so drastically skewed towards Marth in every way; she essentially fits the mold to me of being just training-wheels-tier. Although that doesn't stop her from being a strong character in her own right because she's also getting all of the buffs we are, just their critical difference of having sour/sweet spots are going to differentiate them in a way where Marth is also better.

Lucina does have first hit nair to fsmash at a reasonable percent though, and while Marth does have the same thing it's a lot more difficult to space a tipper from it.