Sega Vs. Everyone (Zamus and Marth entry complete)

[ROOOOY!]

Dedede stops Side and Down B approach with Dtilt pretty effectively, not that you should be spamming these against him anyways.

 

[Tenki]

Use ASC then, yes? :<

 

[IvoYaridovich]

For the Dedede match up, he can not throw items if the items are set correctly regardless of version. If they're just set to the none frequency with them still on, he can chuck them. If they're all shut off individually (as per tournament settings) he will never throw one. Up-B from Dedede also does not have super armor frames on the way down, only on part of the way up. Marths love to up-smash Dedede out of it while he's coming down =/ If he has to up-b from a distance he has to cancel it just above the ledge, which is a good spot to just f-smash him. If your on the ledge and he comes below you and up-bs straight up, get off the ledge cause its spike hurts, and if he sees you let go to regrab he can just cancel it and plop down on the stage. Being predictable and always approaching him from the front will get you inhaled a lot. In the air, directly in front of him is his weakest point as his f-air is rather slow while the rest come out rather fast and stay out for some time.

That's all I can think about for that one.

^ I think ya missed this. The Dedede match up really does need to be updated >.>

 

[Tenki]

Anyone fight a good Peach lately? @.@;

The floating aerials outprioritize Sonic's attacks, and Dsmash stops spin dashes D:

The Peach I fought does aerials so there's no landing lag, and usually buffers jabs / dsmash, which apparently have a slightly extended hitbox too. She might not have a good ground offensive game, but those few moves are quick and cause so much annoyance and trouble since they outprioritize Sonic's ground moves.

Oh, and Usmash kills Sonic at 80%.

~_~'

Homing attack did do pretty well in most cases, but that gets predictable due to the bounce, and stale HA sucks.

 

[samper]

How does Usmash work against her? I just got done watching a few videos of Sonic vs Peach and the Usmash seemed to cut through her Dair, that and the hop on Usmash should get you over Peach's Dsmash if you run and do it (or get you to clash with it, timing seems pretty strict though).

From my very limited peach experience, the spin dashes and dash attack seem to clash with her Dsmash and Ftlit, Bair, and Fsmash look like they out range/clash with a lot of her attacks. Sonic's Fsmash seems to either clash with Peach's Dsmash or beat it if you're at max range/stutter step it or it gets beat if you're too close.

This is me mostly going off of memory/tests in training mode (done by myself, so I can't really comment on Peach's jab or give real concrete advice on her aerials just yet since it's really hard to time those while playing with my feet) as I only know one person that really plays as Peach and I haven't played him in a while, so feel free to correct any of this.

edit: oh yeah, about the 80% Usmash kill, I think Peach has to be right on top of you (and I do mean RIGHT on top of you) for it to kill that early. Every time I did it while Sonic was in the air it couldn't kill him that early, it only did it while he was on the ground right in front of Peach (with no DI). Not sure if I'm messing something up, but that's what I noticed

edit 2: Also I made a comment a little while ago that Sonic's Fair could clash and then beat Metaknight's glide attack. I went back and tested it a few more times and it seems to work pretty consistently, unless of course you just activate Fair to late since his glide attack comes out so fast. Kinda makes me wonder what other really powerful attacks Fair could beat...

 

[ShadowLink84]

yeah Peach has to sweetspot her Usmash for it to kill at such an early percentage.
Typically right in the very center of her character.

I've actually clashed with Peach's Dsmash with the spincharge/dash, I think its only during the initial frames of her Dsmash that its priority overpowers that of Sonic's spindash attack.
Also I think to fight Peach effectively means having to play defensively and when an advantage is gain, pressure her as much as you can since she appears to have some issue when being pressured.

As long as you can keep her above you while in the air you can usually deal with her more easily. Her Uair is also nothing sepctacular since it appears to have a narrow range.
Turnip game is not as dangerous as before but one should still be wary of it.
Mainly since I have had instances in which my opponent drew a beamsword.
Another time the horrifying stitchface , but luckily I caught it and pwnt Peach with it.

 

[Tenki]

bit of info for Peach, G&W, Ice Climbers

As long as you can keep her above you while in the air you can usually deal with her more easily. Her Uair is also nothing sepctacular since it appears to have a narrow range.
Turnip game is not as dangerous as before but one should still be wary of it.
Mainly since I have had instances in which my opponent drew a beamsword.
Another time the horrifying stitchface , but luckily I caught it and pwnt Peach with it.

- Personally it's a well spaced (height) d-air that gets me. It's like a floating, moving Lucario :[
- Random note, keep in mind that Peach can glide toss too, and she may use it to approach

----------------------
G&W
- It may have just been because he triggered his earlier, or that I was coming from under him, but I think Sonic's B-air outranges the turtle.
- ASC eats hotdogs ;D

----------------------
Ice Climbers (some good stuff ;D)
- When their tether recovery begins, Popo actually floats in one place VULNERABLE to attack slightly before he pulls in.
- If you knock them off the edge but slightly far apart, poke Nana to prevent an up-B recovery, or even just simply gimping Nana. Example: (Dash attack> edgeguard with jabs)
- If you grab Popo, he will usually start buffering inputs for Nana to attack. Usually only takes one attack to free Popo, but you can disrupt this by doing a grab attack.

I got a pretty awesome stagespike earlier by using B-air on Popo as he was using up-B. Nana grabbed on, he floated there and I b-aired ftw (er.. stock)

I gimped Nana with that jab combo. lol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Really. I haven't had any great issues with Peach's Dair. I usually aim for using Sonic's Uair at the point where it claps.

 

[Browny]

IC are so succeptible to a d-air off the stage gimp its not funny. its basically a free nana kill once they get off the edge. even if yuo mistime the d-air semi spike slighty, you can just b-air WOP nana... lulz

 

[IceDX]

Nice Guide especially the snake and marth ones u really hit the spot those 2

 

[Browny]

anyone know side side b goes through snakes lightning fists? its always a pain trying to approach his magical wall of hitboxes but i figure stopping the approach short and spin dashing should go right through it... it does for every other attack except weegee fireballs :/

 

[Tenki]

it does go through luigi/mario fireballs. I tried it in Training mode :/

 

[TwinkleToes]

^Kinda surprised you got that to work. I've failed at that so many times in matches...

I think the Pit entry needs to be modified a bit. The guidelines are generally geared towards stopping noobish players, but the better ones will be down-smashing from their dodges a lot as well as forward smashing a lot. Both of these will really hurt your ability to get in range for a killing move on the ground. The best way around this that I've found is to be more reliant on shielding. Pit is not particularly good at grabbing or shield wrecking; so, it's almost impossible to overuse your shield.

 

[Badakin]

Yo BlueT I heard you've played Casshern the Wario player and i was wondering if u could put up tips on playing wario, Honestly Wario bites u out of evvvverything.

 

[TwinkleToes]

^Hyphen smash that sh*t.
Or if you're feeling limber, dash cancel it.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

You can hyphen smash Chomp? Why are Sonic's complaining?

 

[TwinkleToes]

The u-smash will go above his bite range. Provided you have enough forward momentum, a hyphen smash will work. Might be interesting to try to set up a u-smash spike via hyphen smash. Has anyone actually spiked with that in a match yet?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

The u-smash will go above his bite range. Provided you have enough forward momentum, a hyphen smash will work. Might be interesting to try to set up a u-smash spike via hyphen smash. Has anyone actually spiked with that in a match yet?

Not in a way that the opponent couldn't easily get back.

 

[Tenki]

Some lulz from the Mario side.

I went to AiB and uh.. posted this:

halp

how do u figth sonic?

he always gets around fireball spam with the stupid homing attack or that fast jump. i tried doing wop but he'd run and shield grab me as soon as i land. fludd is almost useless, and sometimes, when i'm recovering with cape, he does a b-air so i cape it to hit me instead -__-

I find Sonic is easy becuase most of the time the fireballs stop its momentum.I think his fsmash has more lag than marios.

lol erm I fought like Aftermaths sonic once. And I don't remember what i did. Pretty sure I did the same thing i always do. Sh fireball jab dsmash. Fire ball spam and space well? Watch out for sonic tricksies?
Er lol i suck at helping people, but i think his homing attack has a lot of lag if you just shield it right?
Sonics a decent edge gaurder so depending on where you are i think you should just like airdodge or like float away(DI) or something.

True but his Homing attack lag can be reduced by tapping the B button. Also during a combo the quick homing attack is a good combo finisher. When a sonic user uses Areal spin dash, jump, and quick homing attack, you have no or little time to react. I find it easier to move around and watching out for the spindash (Down B) and spin attack (Side B). I think you can Shield the attack then into a grab. But im not sure. Probably just happened outta luck. Fireballs also stop his momentum.

Yeah I main Mario and Sonic. So i know most of their weaknesses and strengths.

shield grab a lot, also shield dash works too. Also, lure sonic off the stage when he does his homing attack by jumping off the stage->recovering to ledge, then when he's off Bair him. This tactic works sometimes, and depends on where sonic is after homing attack.

Sonic's homing attack can be ****ed over by simply airdodging/getting invincibility...Instead of fly towards you he'll just fly downwards

I thought it was funny :x

 

[FrostByte]

I spiked a sheik once which sent her at a really steep angle near the stage. She can't do anything when she's directly under the ledge as long as you're hanging on it.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Update

Added Mario and Wario. Might be a bit controversial so discuss

 

[Tenki]

by any chance, can you uh... alphabetize it? lol

I keep scrolling up and down or having to use ctrl F to find some matchups XD

 

[Deathwish238]

how about zelda!! v_v

 

[Gangsta_inc]

and Jiggs as well.

 

[Tenki]

ZSS vs Sonic- USE GLIDE TOSS!

BTW:

In the ZSS matchup, Sonic has a potential major advantage in the beginning of the match:
Items.

3 beautiful items.

Glide toss mania. Attack ZSS and knock her away from them, then take control of the remaining two pieces. Practice it some time. Go learn Link and practice controlling bombs. Sonic is too good with items xD

 

[Carbo]

Think you could do one on Lucas?

Also, since I dont have Brawl yet I dont know if its to any advantage, but cant Sonic take advantage of Wario's recovery move by using moves like Sonic's spring? I heard the Corkscrew recovery was fairly weak.

 

[Tenki]

Think you could do one on Lucas?

Also, since I dont have Brawl yet I dont know if its to any advantage, but cant Sonic take advantage of Wario's recovery move by using moves like Sonic's spring? I heard the Corkscrew recovery was fairly weak.

it's a strong attack with fair priority though. I'm pretty sure it'll eat the spring.

But... to gimp Wario's recovery, you gotta keep the bike away from him, since his bike jump is much higher than anything, except a fully charged fart.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Two quick suggestions:

1) Alphabetize the entries already man. Come on it makes it much easier to read.

2) Post videos of certain match ups if you can find them. The better the players the more helpful obviously, but any decent video on youtube should suffice for most of them. A video will probably help give people a much clearer idea of what they should and should not be doing.

 

[Tenki]

Pikachu Matchups/Strategies
...
Sonic

General Discussion:

Sonic is the fastest character in the game who has very little priority. The deadliest attacks to pika are sonics airiels, mostly his fair. Sonic airiels> pika's airiels, but pika's ground game>>sonic's ground game. Most sonic players deal with the low priority by playing a hit &run game. The intention is to disrupt you momentum/gameplay and force you into making a mistake in which they can capitalize on.

Pikachu's Advantages:

1.) can use a projectile(tjolt)
2.) skullbash can stop any of sonic spins
3.) thunder effectively discourages sonic players from using their spring/staying in the air
4.) fsmash has more range than sonic's
5.) dsmash is highly effective
6.) pika's recovery(QA) does not allow sonic to punish pika off the stage

Pikachu's Disadvantages:

1.) slower than sonic(same goes for every other charcter too though)
2.) sonics airiels> pika's airiels
3.) dsmash/thunder is outranged by tilts/fsmash

Strategy for Winning:

The main thing that people need to remember when fighting any good sonic player is that sonic need to get in close to attack to rack up damage. Pika has the luxury in this fight of having a projectile(tjolt). This move is excellent to use(FH tjolt) and spamming it would be a good idea. It can disrupt sonics momentum and it forces sonic to come in close. The best moves against fighting a sonic are pika'a dsmash/fsmash/tjolt/thunder. Skullbashing is useful if you see sonic charging up his spin too since it can cancel the spin if you hit it. Most sonic players agree that pika dsmash is one the hardest moves to get around and one of the best sonic killers other than thunder and fsmash. So by spamming tjolt, it leads to sonic getting closer to you, which means you should become more aggressive . Sonic's only defense (other than shielding and dodging) is to either use his spring recovery(SR) or to run away. If he runs away then feel free to spam tjolt again. When sonic uses his SR the best defense against this is the thunder. Sonic players tend to use their dair out of the spring or choose to FF back to the stage. Either way it gives you ample time to get under him and punish with thunder. Just make sure to watch out for the spring b/c it can cause up to 4% damage.

Some combo's that are effective against sonic are fair>dsmash, or a FFbair. Using the QAC to combo is used less in this matchup by most, but some players still use it nonetheless. The combo that should be used more often when fighting sonic is QAC>thunder. But this is mainly for sonics that have gone airiel. Sonics love to use the SR into an airiel(especially when you have been knocked up into the air), but but thundering you can discourage them form using this approach. If you do find that sonic has gotten underneath you, beware of the uair. It is one of sonic's best killing moves. Try to either dodge it or QA out of the way. Another move that you should try to avid is sonic's fair. It has good priority and can also be use as a killing move(mainly against opponents trying to recover). Keep the fight on the ground. Also, grabbing is not used as often in this matchup because it is more difficult to land a grab against sonic. His speed can get him out of range and back into range to get some free hits in.

Edgeguarding sonic is different than other's because sonics SR can bring him from the very bottom of the screen to the stage ledge in no time. He can even use it to get above you and use his dair to get back to the stage quickly. Sonic can also use his spins to bring him back to the stage. The best edgeguard for pika in this matchup...thunder! It is nearly impossible for sonics to get back to the stage without getting hit by thunder, so use it and use it often.

From the Pikachu matchup thread.

just an idea of what to expect from the other side.

yay reversematchups

 

[TwinkleToes]

Well, at least they don't seem to know that side-b can beat skull bash for quite a few frames. Plus, I think it's good for them to try and spam thunder for edge guarding since dairing is an easy way to counter it.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Ok your wish is my command .

Revisions done. As for Vids, I'll have to look at them X_X (This is gonna take a while).

 

[Tenki]

:D thanks lol, it's alot easier to read now xD

btw, add the Glide Toss vs ZSS tip from a few posts up?
I guess same thing for Diddy.

More things vs ZSS/any tether recoveries-

If you can predict when they'll tether (and judge their tether length from how far they are from the stage, you can drop off the stage (almost straight down) and do a B-air towards the stage. If you can aim it right, you can pull off an unavoidable stage spike for the win :D

I've got a replay of that vs ZSS, if anyone wants to do a video edit or whatever lol

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

as far as im concerned, sonic is incredibly versus dedede, ike and snake. All of snakes specials are useless versus sonic. If hes dumb enough to even fire a single nikita, 2 seconds later when your in his face pummelling it, he will have no choice but to fight up close, removing pretty much all snakes camping ability. Ike's smash attacks should never hit you. ike may be a low % killer, but without his smash attacks hes going to have to get you to at least 100% before hes going to kill you, and with ikes shocking recovery which is easily gimpable by springs and f-airs, sonic only has to bring ike to about 50% before one combo off the stage = dead ike.

Dedede is much the same. so **** slow he wont be killing you anytime soon. get him off the stage with short-hop fair combos that go right over his hammer and into his head, keep him off the stage with homing attacks or force him to use his up-b early. even if he makes it back hes a sitting duck (lol semi-pun not intended) for a bair to keep him off and repeat the process all over again.

Wow... this made me laugh when I read that.... Snake's power isn't in his ability to camp... his tilts and A Button combo are too good for you to get past. His priority is greatly superior to yours and his range on his A button attacks (smashes and tilts) are huge.

Ike's Sword has priority on you... all he needs to do is space well and the match is in his favor. His utilt is also pretty fast and has really good priority as well so I would honestly say that he would have the advantage in this match up.

Dedede should kill sonic as well. He can gimp your advance on him with De-Spamming, block your spin attacks into Up-Tilting out of shield, He gets you off the edge and his infamous edge guarding comes into play and own you...



But as a whole from reading this guide (and some of the advice on the first couple of pages)... you assume you opponent makes too many mistakes....I did like finding out when a over B will go through attacks though... that was helpful.

 

[Umby]

As far as I'm concerned, Snake is a tough matchup, DDD is controversial, and Ike < Sonic.

 

[samper]

Yeah, the Snake part of the guide needs an update, I don't even think it mentions Snakes absurdly powerful tilts (nor the incredibly broken range they have, someone in the development team either liked Snake a whole lot or no one play tested those things). It seems to focus on Snake's ranged game a little bit too much while most of the Snake players I see supplement their close range game with his range instead of focusing on all those explosions.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Wow... this made me laugh when I read that.... Snake's power isn't in his ability to camp... his tilts and A Button combo are too good for you to get past. His priority is greatly superior to yours and his range on his A button attacks (smashes and tilts) are huge.

Ike's Sword has priority on you... all he needs to do is space well and the match is in his favor. His utilt is also pretty fast and has really good priority as well so I would honestly say that he would have the advantage in this match up.

Dedede should kill sonic as well. He can gimp your advance on him with De-Spamming, block your spin attacks into Up-Tilting out of shield, He gets you off the edge and his infamous edge guarding comes into play and own you...



But as a whole from reading this guide (and some of the advice on the first couple of pages)... you assume you opponent makes too many mistakes....I did like finding out when a over B will go through attacks though... that was helpful.

^^^ EPIC FAIL!!!!!!

The only thing I agree with is Snake (Most broken smash character in history). It's only you that assumes the opponent makes mistakes not anyone else. Do your research next time.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

When why in the majority of your "Do's" sections you state to punish wiffs... if they arent making mistakes then they arent wiffing...

Don't really want to start any flame wars mostly I was commenting on that one guy's response....

 

[Tenki]

When why in the majority of your "Do's" sections you state to punish wiffs... if they arent making mistakes then they arent wiffing...

Don't really want to start any flame wars mostly I was commenting on that one guy's response....

Unfortunately, people DO miss attacks.

Either way, there are certain moves that, with running speed or full Spin Charge, Sonic players can reach and punish that other characters can't. Any vulnerabilities are things to watch out for =]

And now for the corrections.

Wow... this made me laugh when I read that.... Snake's power isn't in his ability to camp... his tilts and A Button combo are too good for you to get past. His priority is greatly superior to yours and his range on his A button attacks (smashes and tilts) are huge.

Snake has blindspots above/behind him. But yeah, it's outdated for the most part @.@;

Ike's Sword has priority on you... all he needs to do is space well and the match is in his favor. His utilt is also pretty fast and has really good priority as well so I would honestly say that he would have the advantage in this match up.

Priority isn't worth mentioning because frankly, almost everything outprioritizes Sonic. Ike can space well, but Sonic can space better and access those blind spots and lag moments that most people can't. Ike's utilt is not fast. Or rather, not fast enough =/

(Running) Usmash apparently shuts down alot of Ike's shorthopped approaches, too.

Dedede should kill sonic as well. He can gimp your advance on him with De-Spamming, block your spin attacks into Up-Tilting out of shield, He gets you off the edge and his infamous edge guarding comes into play and own you...

Just what is Sonic's "advance"? @.@; Yes, Dee-spamming stops some of Sonic's ground approaches, but that's not all he has to approach with anyway >_>

Sonic's spring gets him out of D3's height, and even if he was in D3's range (in front of/under D3), he could use Spring's invincibility frames to go through him.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

"advance on him" meaning his approach... DDD's attacks come out fast, specifically his tilts and air attacks, if he can slow Sonic's approach he can keep his distance with those attacks. Also last I knew sonic could be chain grabbed by DDD

I do admit that Ike's speed is "slow" when fighting Sonic but he has some fast attacks that he can use to keep his distance from Sonic to stop him from getting inside... Not to mention his Back Air is not only fast but powerful as hell... this is probably the best of the three mentioned but I still think it is in Ike's favor if not only because he can kill you way before you can kill him.

 

[Browny]

lol dont quote me on something i wrote 2 months ago :< that was before i knew about snake-boosting and his utilt of doom.

but sonic still ***** ike

ikes bair is powerful as hell... when compared to everyone else. sonic has quite a powerful b-air himself, i dont remember the numbers but i think theres only a 20% difference in thier b-airs to kill a mario from centre of FD. and honestly, ikes b-air is so predictable. he cant combo or punish into it