Sega Vs. Everyone (Zamus and Marth entry complete)

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Please just tell me you've been trolling for the past two months.

Well, I was just playing it in an easier way too see things that all. If have anything extra feel free to post it. And no, I'm not a troll or trolling as you put it , and I like to make jokes so what? I'm sorry if you don't like none of them, but you can lighten up once in a while.: confused:

 

[BlueTerrorist]

I have an idea that could revolutionize the matchup thread. Maybe.

If people fight certain matchups, there are certain moves that we can find that Sonic can outprioritize with certain attacks, or are easily punished.

Some examples:
-Ganondorf Aerial Down-B gets defeated/outprioritized by Sonic's dsmash(!?!), as strange as it sounds.
-MK jab gets defeated by spindash.
-F-tilt outranges/can counter Marth's F-smash
-Snake can be knocked off Cypher in midair by: N/Bair, Homing Attack

If people can put down moves and weaknesses like that, then not only do we get matchup / playstyle tips in general, but we can even approach or bait certain attacks with confidence.

Hmm.. I was thinking the same myself.

Anyway, added DK, Samus, Zamus, ROB, and DDD. Wow, that's alot of match ups I wrote lol.

YAY!!! The thread got stickied

 

[Tenki]

congratulations! :D

I still think the Do's/Dont's should be changed to The Good/The Bad or something. lol minor... language thing that bothers me

Peach:
- Her Usmash can kill you at 90-100%. Watch out for that.

Lucario:
- Do save your kill moves' knockback (avoid stale moves!). If you must use one of them for damage, save the others for backup.
Punishable moves:
- D-air is vulnerable from ... anywhere that's not down.
- - In light of Up-B's invincibility, you might even be able to bait D-airs and use those invincibility frames to go through and above him. He'll most likely drop and try to use the spring to get back and chase you. What a mindgame.
- Lucario's smash attacks have punishable lag and startup.

DK:
- Watch out for his B-air, since it's quick, has good knockback and range.
- Watch out for his tilts :[
- DON'T GET GRABBED NEAR THE EDGE OF A LEVEL - DK's cargo stage spike will own you at almost any %.
- His smash attacks come out pretty fast, but have post-attack lag.
- He doesn't cover vertical range well, so use springs- as a projectile, escape, whatever you can think of.
Punishable moves:
- Down-B (use spinshot approach). Also, it's got much larger range in front of him than behind him, so be aware of that.

After putting down that note about his smash attacks, yeah, you're right. The best way to fight him is to punish :<

---------
that's all I can think of right away. I do have experience fighting a good Sheik, but it's feeling like a while since I've been able to go online with my Wii. If I can get it to work again and get some recent matches, I'll help out with that.

Some things I remember:
- Watch out for chain edgeguards (try to use up-B's invincibility to go through it so you can punish it)
- Sheiks feel like needles > Sonic. It's true, but you can turn that around by baiting needle throws.
- Spot dodging works badly against Sheik :[
- Up-B to escape combos xD

moar on that later.

 

[IvoYaridovich]

For the Dedede match up, he can not throw items if the items are set correctly regardless of version. If they're just set to the none frequency with them still on, he can chuck them. If they're all shut off individually he will never throw one. Up-B from Dedede also does not have super armor frames on the way down, only on part of the way up. Marths love to up-smash Dedede out of it while he's coming down =/ If he has to up-b from a distance he has to cancel it just above the ledge, which is a good spot to just f-smash him. If your on the ledge and he comes below you and up-bs straight up, get off the ledge cause its spike hurts, and if he sees you let go to regrab he can just cancel it and plop down on the stage. Being predictable and always approaching him from the front will get you inhaled a lot.

That's all I can think about for that one.

 

[Tenki]

For the Dedede match up, he can not throw items if the items are set correctly regardless of version. If they're just set to the none frequency with them still on, he can chuck them. If they're all shut off individually he will never throw one. Up-B from Dedede also does not have super armor frames on the way down, only on part of the way up. Marths love to up-smash Dedede out of it while he's coming down =/ If he has to up-b from a distance he has to cancel it just above the ledge, which is a good spot to just f-smash him. If your on the ledge and he comes below you and up-bs straight up, get off the ledge cause its spike hurts, and if he sees you let go to regrab he can just cancel it and plop down on the stage. Being predictable and always approaching him from the front will get you inhaled a lot.

That's all I can think about for that one.

-the item thing is true
-nice tips on that ledge thing. I knew he had to cancel, but I never thought of taking advantage of it like that XD

and in case you ever decide to add the 'punishable moves':
-Dedede's up-B can be punished well by: b-air (side), homing attack (under/side), u-air (clap it so the tip hits, FF helps). Springvincibility is pretty useful against this one too - just go through him when he's on his way down :x

 

[soloSHADOWROB]

Haha I laugh when u say about Sonic looking for an open against ROB.
He has almost no weakness.
As a ROB main I see how it is for a SOnic player to fight me.
You have to be on your A game and a very patient SOnic player.
Also have good mind games.
Use SOnics Nuetral B on a recovry ROB because ROB cant use an attack immediately after utilizing the Up-B
The since ROB is both heavy and floaty he can be comboed very well by Sonic.
SOnic is very hard to win with thats why whoever plays as SOnic I give them mad props for trying really hard.

 

[Browny]

if you ask me, sonic vs dedede is at LEAST a 7:3 match up. im no slouch with dedede and when my brother plays sonic for the first time and very nearly 3 stocks me (out of 3), something is inherently wrong. every one of dedede's moves is punishable, you can dash-grab him faster than the waddle-dee toss animation and his b-air edgeguard is useless vs the spring. sonic cant be chain grabbed, hyphen smashing goes through his neutral b before he can blink, and his up-b is nothing more than a free hit for the b-air. hes also extremely succeptible to grab - upthrow - upsmash combos for a free 28% to start the match

anyway you might want to mention that sonic is immune to the CG thanks to the spring

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Does the SideB's invinci/priority frames beat out Sheik's needles? Or do the hitbox-less needles win out anyway? Got into a discussion about this at a recent tourney. I tried to do it in the match, but I had trouble timing it do to needles being practically invisible and the frustration of a few missed over bs that turned into nuetral bs.

Stupid HA.

 

[TwinkleToes]

MDM, no, sadly the frames are too short for a fully charged needle storm. You'll end up being clanked or hit. Don't bother with it.

 

[Umby]

Sticky for the win.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

I had assumed the frames would make it through, but with any charge you'd get caught right after. ****.

Still the frames will make it if timed right? Say you dash and Sheik throws it out quick to slow you down, and you go into it? Or is the timing for that too tight, even if the Needles are uncharged?

 

[TwinkleToes]

The knee-jerk reaction can work as long as you can get used to the timing. I'm not convinced it's particularly useful given how easy it is for a Sheik to power up needles but don't let me stop you.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

I would just like to say lol @ "Meta Knight has a slight advantage overall." Slight? Haha.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Just trying to gather as much info as I can about it, and hopefully other Sheik stuff(conisder that a request for a Sheik match up guide/post) before I run into the Sheik mainer that beat me last tourney again.

 

[dark_Illusion_hokage]

hmm... good DDD strategy but that didn't work on CO18 lol got him down to 1 life and 100% so thats good enough.

 

[Tenki]

D3/Sheik/ Zelda vs Sonic link

Sonic is NOT immune to Dedede's chaingrab. But he sure makes the timing really tight since it's easy for him to escape xD

Something I noticed last night. If a Dedede does F-tilt and misses, you can actually run into it as he's pulling it back and go for a grab/dash attack lol. Hoorah for Sonic's runspeed.

Also, as a large target, he's bait for spindash combos! You can easily pull off a full (or even partial/skipped jump attack) N-air spindash combo, which IMO is his most powerful one, not counting any juggling value that other moves have:

Full charged SD> (SDJ)> N-air while inside the person (11 dmg)

-also agree with changing the super armor info for d3's up-b, since he only has super armor on his way up, not down.

I had assumed the frames would make it through, but with any charge you'd get caught right after. ****.

Still the frames will make it if timed right? Say you dash and Sheik throws it out quick to slow you down, and you go into it? Or is the timing for that too tight, even if the Needles are uncharged?

the timing is weird :<

if you tried to tap side-b as you saw the Sheik throw the needles, you'd have too much delay (getting into charge animation) and probably get hit.

Sheik's single needle works just like Diddy's peanut launcher in that you can move right after you get hit. It stops your last attack, but if you have good reflexes, you can keep going with whatever you were doing if you just restart your input.

You can access the invincibility frames quicker if you're already charging it, since all you have to do is let go, but really, you're better off spinshotting or going for a springdrop approach. Invincibility frames will work against any attack, but if you fail to pass through the attack before they're over, you'll get hit. Also, side-b/down-b don't outprioritize Sheik's needles.

[edit2]
You might want to take a look at this:
How to beat Sonic with Zelda?? :[

How valid is it?

 

[TwinkleToes]

You should add to the Metaknight entry that if you put a spring on the ground near the edge and MK tornados into it he will side-b right off the edge and die.

 

[Umby]

[edit2]
You might want to take a look at this:
How to beat Sonic with Zelda?? :[

How valid is it?

Sonic is the only match-up where I switch to Sheik, btw.

I like how Sonic is low-tier, yet people have so much trouble against him, they have to switch up the entire way they play. My friend uses G&W and will throw out three fsmashes in a row because he's afraid I'll run into him.


From my experience, Sonic vs Zelda goes down something like:

- Sonic uses SD/SC, Zelda shields.
- Sonic uses SD/SC later. Zelda tries to punish Sonic when he ends up behind her.
- Sonic uses SD/SC later, Zelda uses neutral a/ftilt -> Neutral A or something of that effect.
- Sonic uses SD/SC. Zelda uses Neutral A, but Sonic holds the charge for a second, throwing the timing off.
- Zelda starts catching on to this and starts tilting to stop SD/SC approaches.
- Sonic catches on to the catching on and uses a SDJ/SCJ -> Homing Attack variant to mix up his approach (though really, he's probably already done that a bit sooner).

Doesn't always happen, but those are ideal cases I see in the chain of events. Zelda also uses Nayru's Love sometimes as well.

As far as Sheik, it really is all a needle game, as Sonic has an issue getting through a Needle Storm (That's when I start SHADing a bit more). After that you have to clash with her jab, and your reflexes have to be good enough to follow up before Sheik does.

 

[Tenki]

I like how Sonic is low-tier, yet people have so much trouble against him, they have to switch up the entire way they play. My friend uses G&W and will throw out three fsmashes in a row because he's afraid I'll run into him.
...

- Sonic catches on to the catching on and uses a SDJ/SCJ -> Homing Attack variant to mix up his approach (though really, he's probably already done that a bit sooner).

Doesn't always happen, but those are ideal cases I see in the chain of events. Zelda also uses Nayru's Love sometimes as well.

As far as Sheik, it really is all a needle game, as Sonic has an issue getting through a Needle Storm (That's when I start SHADing a bit more). After that you have to clash with her jab, and your reflexes have to be good enough to follow up before Sheik does.

lol the last time I fought a Zelda, she wasn't even that good, but asdfl;jk Nayru's Love kept getting me every time I tried to do a mixup xD
I think it has invincibility frames at the beginning or something, I don't think I could grab her during that, and then I'd get caught by the attack D:

@ Sheik, no, it's not. It's disturbing how well Sheik can chase Sonic. I fought Tristan_Win as my first/only good Sheik player, and there's alot of F-tilting, u-tilting, dash attacking involved on Sheik's part. The aerial attacks can also combo or KB pretty well. Spotdodge and rolling backwards vs Sheik doesn't work too well, especially during smashes, and the teleport move has surprising knockback x.x;

also, just noticed you're from atl. i'm like 30 mins up from there xD

 

[Umby]

I neglected to mention ftilt, as I was going for a "what stops Sonic's approach" type of thing. Ftilts gets Sonic on the move too, but not in the way needles and jabs do. That dash attack is so ****ing annoying.

And yea, I'm from the A. Sorta.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Umby, it's true that people need to change their playing styles against Sonic, but that's mostly due to his speed. The style they switch to is usually still pretty effective at beating him which is why Sonic is thought of as low tier.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Blue Terroist, my nukka Eli told me that you're a very good Sonic, and I can tell from your match up analysis that you're a solid player fo sho.

I would love to get some games in with you. I always seek great players who are in my area.

I'm trying to get to NY. Right now I'm in NJ, but getting there has been tough for me for various reasons.

I would like to play you on Wifi if possible. The idea of a really good Sonic excites me.

Also, another reason I want to fight you is to see how in the world Sonic has the advantage vs Ike. Lately I've been reading that Sonic beats Ike or at the very least goes even with him, and I find this to be absolutely absurd. Show me what's up playa.

My aim is VersatileRTC.

I'll be hitting ya up.

Thanks man, and keep up the good work

 

[The_Dyne]

King DeDeDe

Do:
- Pressure him, he's pretty slow on most of his moves.
- Punish him after any whiffed attack or rather if he does a very laggy move.
- He's a big target, take advantage of that.
- For a recovery like his, he can be gimped. Try it if the opportunity arises.
- Concerning his Up b, he has super armor on the way up and on the way down. However, when he reaches full height ( He's in the air before coming down) he is vulnerable. If your quick enough, you can smack him right out of his Up b then, think of the evil things we can do with this (Not many characters can do this because DDD goes high so I guess were blessed right).
- Rarely with his Side b, he will throw a capsule (US version only). Sometimes a Smash Ball wil come out of it which means SUPER SONIC ****!!!! (Seriously this is REALLY rare and only happened in one of my matches, you don't know how pissed my opponent was.) I don't know why this happens even without items . If this happens, secure that ball STAT. I don't care if they complain, play to win lol .

Don't:
- Get sweetspotted by Fsmash, you'll die so fast from this. Luckily it's slow so you can get away unless you did something stupid.
- Control the space, keep him on your terms.
- Get Chaingrabbed, if it's a walk off or a wall, your pretty much done. Sucks to be one of the few who can get CG'd by DDD .
- Don't let him spam you with his Side b, Gordo hurts, Waddle Dees are annoying, and Waddle Doos can trap you with their beam, leaving you open for a Fsmash.
- He can edgeguard you due to his jumps, mix up your recovery.
- He's heavy, not a big deal but don't spam your precious kill moves needlessly if you want to kill DDD earlier.
- If your gonna gimp, be careful of suicides with his neutral b. It will help if you can bait this out, it takes a minute for him to stop the move and can lead to him getting KO'ed most of the time.

That should be in the Do section...

 

[samper]

Just thought I'd mention some things I just noticed against a CPU Metaknight (no friends to test this stuff out properly right now unfortunately)
1. a well timed jab seems to clank with mach tornado
2. If you hit the tornado with Nair at the start of Nair, you beat it (I think), otherwise you both take damage
3. If Metaknight goes into glide mode and you want to attack him anyway, a well placed Fair will cancel out his glide attack if you hit him with it early and then it will continue to hit him.

Just a few things I noticed that weren't up on the front page I wanted to share.

 

[algandar88]

hello there...i am in SERIOUS need of help .......wolves are the worst

 

[Tenki]

Just thought I'd mention some things I just noticed against a CPU Metaknight (no friends to test this stuff out properly right now unfortunately)
1. a well timed jab seems to clank with mach tornado
2. If you hit the tornado with Nair at the start of Nair, you beat it (I think), otherwise you both take damage
3. If Metaknight goes into glide mode and you want to attack him anyway, a well placed Fair will cancel out his glide attack if you hit him with it early and then it will continue to hit him.

Just a few things I noticed that weren't up on the front page I wanted to share.

1- mach drill (side B) or tornado? Tornado seems to have low priority at the beginning of the attack...
2- I think that's based on placement- anything can beat Tornado if you come in from directly above Metaknight.
3- gotta check that later :x

 

[samper]

@Tenki:

1. Yeah, I was talking about the tornado, and I did jab it when Meta first started to use it, so it may just have low priority there

2. I'm pretty sure I caught the tornado from the side (like how I jabbed him) and not from the top

3. It is worth noting that I used Fair right before Meta did his glide attack, but the two attacks did hit each other as the game kinda paused us both in the attacks, but since Meta's glide attack only hits once I ended up hitting him with the rest of Fair. It might be that the glide attack has kinda low priority but it just comes out so fast that its usually not a problem for him to hit people with it.

 

[Deathwish238]

yeah i agree wolves and zeldas are the worst >_< and pikachu's are pretty annoying too becuz they're so short and d-smash is broken =D lol

 

[algandar88]

yeah i agree wolves and zeldas are the worst >_< and pikachu's are pretty annoying too becuz they're so short and d-smash is broken =D lol

but wat do we doagainst them....sonic has to have sumtin up his sleeve that we havent discovered

 

[Tenki]

Yah, powershield xD

One of the best things to do is take some time and 'learn' the other character. Learn the range for the attacks, and more importantly, which attacks have delays and when you can punish them. Find out when they tend to use certain moves (like when Pikachus start to Dsmash, when Wolf will use Fsmash) and get in a good position to punish them.

If they're spamming blaster, walk > powershield> run+grab lol.

 

[algandar88]

Yah, powershield xD

One of the best things to do is take some time and 'learn' the other character. Learn the range for the attacks, and more importantly, which attacks have delays and when you can punish them. Find out when they tend to use certain moves (like when Pikachus start to Dsmash, when Wolf will use Fsmash) and get in a good position to punish them.

If they're spamming blaster, walk > powershield> run+grab lol.

lol wow......its works too...thanks 4 the info

 

[BlueTerrorist]

News

Due to my trip upstate, Updates won't happen until next week. Well, if any of you guys have things to share, feel free to post them like regular and I'll read them when I get back on Monday.

 

[Tenki]

Weight and Adapting to it still under revisions
Most of these setups will require your opponent to be at a certain %. Of course, 100% on a Mario isn't the same as 100% on a Bowser, so you have to adjust the requirements based on character weight. These are decent estimations of how much to add/subtract from the requirements, so you have an idea of when certain moves will or will not work. Some characters have better horizontal DI than others, making them seem heavier when being launched sideways, and they will be noted here.


[-20%] Lightweight*: Jigglypuff(-25%)/Game&Watch/Metaknight/Kirby...
[-10%] Lower-middleweight : Pikachu/Ness/Lucas/Falco/Fox...
[+0%] Middleweight : Sonic(+5%)/ZSS/Samus*/Link/Marth/Mario*/Luigi*/Wario*...
[+10%] Upper-Middleweight : Wolf/Ganondorf/Snake(+15%)/Ike(+15%)...
[+20%] Heavyweight : Dedede*/DK/Bowser...

etc.

*Exceptions due to abnormal DI
-Jigglypuff has amazing horizontal aerial control. For vertical moves, treat her like she's 20-25% lighter, but for horizontal moves, treat her 10% lighter.
-Metaknight, Kirby, and Game&Watch are vertically treated 15% lighter, but horizontally treated 0-5% lighter (G&W lightest of them)
-Mario is treated 10% lighter vertically, but 10% heavier horizontally.
-Luigi is treated 5% lighter vertically and 5% heavier horizontally.
-Wario is treated middleweight vertically, but for horizontal KOs, treat him 10% heavier.
-Samus is treated 15% heavier on horizontal moves.
-Dedede is treated 25% heavier vertically, but only 10% heavier horizontally!

This might help a little bit. btw if anyone decides to read that thread, the %'s I give are tested on Marth, partly because he's my idea of middleweight, and I believe that to be more practical.

I'm still planning to test the rest of the characters, but honestly, I was surprised to find out that Dedede's lighter/easier to kill horizontally lol. Same with the rest of the Kirby crew, being easier to KO vertically.

That could help in understanding how to efficiently kill those characters.

[edit]
Game and Watch trying to camp you with his neutral B?
ASC is the answer!

The 'permanent' hitbox around Sonic will destroy hotdog after hotdog and come in at an angle that his pan can't reach.

hoorah!

Also, things to look out for: I went to the ZSS forum to check out the Sonic matchup from their side. They seem to have an advantage, and there are some moves to watch out for.

 

[rehab]

I'm biased, but I'm curious to see what sonic peeps think of Wario. Anything already written in here?

 

[Browny]

wario is like, sonic enemy #1.

also, wtf is with Mario vs sonic. i have no trouble beating my brother playing any character except olimar and marth, but today he picks mario and owns me repeatedly. i just had to see if it was luck or something, so i try vs lvl 9 cpu. i can normally 3 stock any level 9 cpu without too much trouble, but the mario beat me...

i swear to god its all in his fsmash. it shield stabs ffs. that, and its so difficult to edgeguard him when he just floats around with the cape.

 

[Tenki]

wario is like, sonic enemy #1.

also, wtf is with Mario vs sonic. i have no trouble beating my brother playing any character except olimar and marth, but today he picks mario and owns me repeatedly. i just had to see if it was luck or something, so i try vs lvl 9 cpu. i can normally 3 stock any level 9 cpu without too much trouble, but the mario beat me...

i swear to god its all in his fsmash. it shield stabs ffs. that, and its so difficult to edgeguard him when he just floats around with the cape.

Lvl 9 Mario has better AI than like.. any other CPU.

that aside, if you get (un)lucky and fight against a lvl 9 Mario when it's in "I'm smart" mode, he'll point out every single attack that outprioritizes Sonic and stops his attacks - F-tilt, fireballs... bleh.

as for cape, if you can predict when he'll do it, start a B-air that would normally hit away from him, forcing him turn it around so you hit him. I'm pretty sure it's viable. I've seen a Mario 'combo' video and in one section, it was a Mario vs Mario and one of them caped a backwards F-air and ended up getting meteor smashed.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

About updates about characters

Just to let you guys know, a big revision is about to take place on the character guides. This may take a while so please bear with me . After that, I will continue to add the rest of the roster.

Thanks for the info Tenki. About ZSS, she goes pretty even with Sonic as far as some of the intellegent ZSS players and my experiences are concerned (and I fought some pretty good ones too). I've already listed what she does down.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Ok revisions are done .

 

[Tenki]

Ike

What to do:
- Punish him after any whiffed attack
- Use your speed and he shouldn't hurt you as much, he's pretty slow.
- Gimp him, his recovery sucks. Don't be shy about spring spiking him either.
- Mix it up with your grabs, this helps against his counter and super armor as well.

Do not (The bad):
- If you're predictable or get cornered , SONIC WILL GET PWNED!!!
- Be careful of his faster attacks (Nair, AAA combo, Ftilt, Utilt & Bair).
- Be mindful, his Side B will be used to approach you.
- Power moves will FAIL against Ike, use speed tactics instead.
- ummmmm... range.
- They will RAR their Bair as a approach tactic.

Opinion: I don't care what Ike players say, Sonic has an advantage over him. He can be easily gimped even though they will use side B to recover from far away. Sonic can use his speed to easily dodge his kill moves since they lag. Ike will have to rely on his faster attacks, making survival for Sonic easier. Just use mindgames and you should be fine in this battle. Be careful on smaller stages though . It's not impossible for an Ike player to win but, it's a fact that Sonic does have more advantages over him.

yay @ formatting change <3

I guess you can mention that Aether, specifically, is weak to being spring gimped, especially if you drop it on the outside so he gets knocked under the level.

Also, if what I've seen around the Ike boards and Empy/VJBN are correct, good Ikes will rarely go for side-B approaches. I think they even go as far as to suggest that Ike is defensively played, and/or should just wait for the other guy to approach.

[edit/additions]
Snake:
+ Homing Attack, N-air, and D-air destroy mortars. Homing Attack actually targets mortars, too, so if a Snake is edgeguarding with mortars, you can use the mortars as 'bounce points' to recover with HA while staying out of Snake's range xD
+ Smashes knock Snake off Cypher too
+ Learn his tilt range. It will save ALOT of trouble :]
- About Nikitas, I think every move with an attack aura goes through them, but if Snake cancels it, a dropping Nikita will go through your moves and explode.

Also, it would be nice if it were alphabetized... XD

 

[ShadowLink84]

I tihnk you should change Snake's a bit. He has great ground game up close.
Jab and F tilt as well as his U tilt.
Your Dair can go through the Usmash as well.