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Meta Secrets of the Umbra: Bayonetta Metagame Discussion

Pseud0

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I also think that in neutral, Bullet Climax and dtilt Bullet arts is good for pressuring the opponent and forcing them to make a rushed or unsafe approach. If they sit in shield or try to camp, you can use Bullet climax as a response. If they apply the kirby vs fox strategy of crouching to avoid it, you can use dtilt bullet arts to rack up damage. I wouldn't advise spamming them, but it's a good tool for pressure, as it forces an opponent to approach you, leading to openings for combos.
I like shorthop fair Bullet Arts much better than using her grounded BA options. If you learn the timing and do it consistently, you can rack on a good 10-15% per stock with the the use of it. It's reminiscent of SHDL, tbh. Frustrates opponents, pressures approach, and Bayo can take control of those situations because of its transcendence and lack of lag.
 

Pseud0

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Utilt hit 1 true combos into ABK.

Hit 2 combos from Dtilt and into WT at mid/lower Percents. Utilt also deals a fair amount of damage, which is great if you get a Dtilt at low % and want a better combo. (Need more percent) Utilt also combos into Fair, which starts combos as well. I don't see how this is a bad move?
We need different abbreviations for Witch Twist and Witch Time lmao, I always get momentarily confused
 

Sonicninja115

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We need different abbreviations for Witch Twist and Witch Time lmao, I always get momentarily confused
Well...

Time/Twist
WTime/Wtwist
WTi/WTw

All of these should work. What about the absurdly long combos? I think it would be good to start abbreviating stuff (2x DBK) stuff like that, or actual names for BnB.
 

Otterz

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Well...

Time/Twist
WTime/Wtwist
WTi/WTw

All of these should work. What about the absurdly long combos? I think it would be good to start abbreviating stuff (2x DBK) stuff like that, or actual names for BnB.
She has so many custom BnB's that they're hard to name.
 

Smoking_Hot_BBQ

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Couldn't we just say Up B for witch twist? There is no variation or other version of the move like with side b that we would need to specifcy. Same with witch time.

I like shorthop fair Bullet Arts much better than using her grounded BA options. If you learn the timing and do it consistently, you can rack on a good 10-15% per stock with the the use of it. It's reminiscent of SHDL, tbh. Frustrates opponents, pressures approach, and Bayo can take control of those situations because of its transcendence and lack of lag.
Fair enough. However, I feel that bullet climax is better when grounded because it does far more shield damage and shield stun from what I've experienced than any BA move, so using neutral B could still be a good mixup. Dtilt BA, again, is good for crouching opponents.
 

haxfactory

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I'm doing some testing and dash attack canceled grab looks like it is worth exploring.

When my friend gets home I'm going to test side b mixups seeing if by not holding b I can get a grab on shield. If by shielding side b they get punished by a grab that may present some opportunities.

EDIT: has anyone noticed a down smash at the edge Bayonetta will stomp them off stage into the spike?
 
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Giova

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I'm doing some testing and dash attack canceled grab looks like it is worth exploring.

When my friend gets home I'm going to test side b mixups seeing if by not holding b I can get a grab on shield. If by shielding side b they get punished by a grab that may present some opportunities.
I dont think you can grab them before they do. But im curious so post ASAP :D
 

haxfactory

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Another thing I've noticed side b unblocked without flip kick...you can get a grab from it before they land sometimes. (Just trying to lab a bit until my friend gets on to do some real testing).

I can pretty much guarantee its not true combo (not even at zero its definitely DIable) but it is something to be aware of. At higher percentage you may need to do a dash grab and its probably heavily di reliant.

Dash attack canceled grab seems to cover twice the distance of dash grab.

EDIT: Can't get the grab first unfortunately with using grounded side b on shield >.>

We tested it.

However dash attack canceled grab really helps her out in practice. She conditions people to shield so easily.
 
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Ghidorah14

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I really hope Nairo proves ZeRo wrong and shows him who is the new combo master now.
Watch it happen, and then like a week later, he'll make a video along the lines of "does bayonetta need to be nerfed/banned?"

And then a week after that, he'll be maining her and make another video about how great she is, and his previous comments about her being unimpressive will never be referenced again.
 

Ark of Silence101

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Watch it happen, and then like a week later, he'll make a video along the lines of "does bayonetta need to be nerfed/banned?"

And then a week after that, he'll be maining her and make another video about how great she is, and his previous comments about her being unimpressive will never be referenced again.
I take it you've watched his "Where's Bayonetta in the tier list?" Video? That's"I don't want my Sheik to lose to Nairo's Bayonetta" bias. Seriously, Nairo and Mew2king have already gotten the hang of her, while ZeRo apparently can't do squat with her.
 
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DisidisiD

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EDIT: has anyone noticed an fsmash at the edge Bayonetta will stomp them off stage into the spike?
Do you mean Dsmash? In that case, yes. It's a very good punish if you somehow got a shield break. Fully charged Dsmash will kill around 20 at the ledge.
 

haxfactory

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Yeah, I meant Down Smash don't know why I typed fsmash. I was a little out of it after work yesterday.
 

haxfactory

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I'm not going to be home this weekend (I stay at my girlfriend's place during the week because it's closer to my work) because it's Valentine's Day weekend. If I manage to record anything it'd be a with my phone camera >.>

I should really at least bring my Elgato to my girlfriend's house. It's not like I don't have an Intensity Pro at home already anyway.

There are already videos about dash attack canceled grabs on YouTube though if you want to check them out.

Basically, you input a dash attack and within a frame or two you go to grab.

In that way it's kind of like a DACUS from Brawl but with a grab instead.
 

GalaxyWaffles

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This question goes to those saying how Bayo's neutral isnt bad or hard & to those claiming how they camp and force people to approach.. Wtf are you guys doing? I legit just jump around and hold Nair or Uair and attempt to camp/approach and fail.

Bullet climax isnt even worth using IMO, aside from edguarding.

Her roll and spot dodge is just.. Depressing. Looks wise tho its 10/10

Being able to shoot while you hold attacks isnt even that great of an option since they dont stagger. Sometimes the hits dont even register even though im clearly hitting them.

It seems super easy to grab her out of her side b (its been happening to me quite often now)

BatsWithin feels super wonky. Like its activating randomly or when it wants too which kinda throws me off since im not expecting it.
 

haxfactory

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This question goes to those saying how Bayo's neutral isnt bad or hard & to those claiming how they camp and force people to approach.. Wtf are you guys doing? I legit just jump around and hold Nair or Uair and attempt to camp/approach and fail.

Bullet climax isnt even worth using IMO, aside from edguarding.

Her roll and spot dodge is just.. Depressing. Looks wise tho its 10/10

Being able to shoot while you hold attacks isnt even that great of an option since they dont stagger. Sometimes the hits dont even register even though im clearly hitting them.

It seems super easy to grab her out of her side b (its been happening to me quite often now)

BatsWithin feels super wonky. Like its activating randomly or when it wants too which kinda throws me off since im not expecting it.
I feel like the bullet hits do a fraction of a percent, not even a full percent, I only see percent changes after a few hits.

That's why I don't find it particularly useful myself. It may be causing people to approach now, but once they realize that they basically do no damage I doubt it's going to bait an approach.

Neutral B can be pretty useless across the stage, the best you can do is try to catch a jump or something. Pretty much any character can just crouch it.

I think her options at neutral are pretty much falling side b, nair and bair.

From there condition them to shield and get some grabs.

The only way I see her being effective once everyone adapts to her is if she manages to have a grab game.
 

Sonicninja115

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I feel like the bullet hits do a fraction of a percent, not even a full percent, I only see percent changes after a few hits.

That's why I don't find it particularly useful myself. It may be causing people to approach now, but once they realize that they basically do no damage I doubt it's going to bait an approach.

Neutral B can be pretty useless across the stage, the best you can do is try to catch a jump or something. Pretty much any character can just crouch it.

I think her options at neutral are pretty much falling side b, nair and bair.

From there condition them to shield and get some grabs.

The only way I see her being effective once everyone adapts to her is if she manages to have a grab game.
I heard that they do 0.7%, but I don't remember were I heard that.

RE: Bullet Climax

BC is a great move...
It catches SH, something most characters in the game love to spam. It catches distant landings. It conditions the opponents to land a certain way. It edgeguards the opponents or forces them to go into DABK/Dair range. It deals considerable, safe damage. It can be cancelled. Climax cancelling is a really good thing. It is a bait option. Someone should check IPC/INC. It has it's uses and is probably one of the better projectiles.

Also, Dtilt's BA does good percent for some reason. I think it is about 5%ish.
 

SMS Medic

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Can someone explain how her bullet arts ( holding attack buttons) effect her move staling? Just wondering if you can reset her moves by tagging people with a few invisible bullets.
 

Sonicninja115

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Can someone explain how her bullet arts ( holding attack buttons) effect her move staling? Just wondering if you can reset her moves by tagging people with a few invisible bullets.
Most likely, 80% sure, they count as Dtilt.
 

Burgundy

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I heard that they do 0.7%, but I don't remember were I heard that.

RE: Bullet Climax

BC is a great move...
It catches SH, something most characters in the game love to spam. It catches distant landings. It conditions the opponents to land a certain way. It edgeguards the opponents or forces them to go into DABK/Dair range. It deals considerable, safe damage. It can be cancelled. Climax cancelling is a really good thing. It is a bait option. Someone should check IPC/INC. It has it's uses and is probably one of the better projectiles.

Also, Dtilt's BA does good percent for some reason. I think it is about 5%ish.
Dtilt's BA's does 10% if all the hits connect, because Bayo is shooting 2 guns in front of her instead of one. She also shoots 1 behind her, but that's not very useful.
 

deepseadiva

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This question goes to those saying how Bayo's neutral isnt bad or hard & to those claiming how they camp and force people to approach.. Wtf are you guys doing? I legit just jump around and hold Nair or Uair and attempt to camp/approach and fail.

Bullet climax isnt even worth using IMO, aside from edguarding.

Her roll and spot dodge is just.. Depressing. Looks wise tho its 10/10

Being able to shoot while you hold attacks isnt even that great of an option since they dont stagger. Sometimes the hits dont even register even though im clearly hitting them.

It seems super easy to grab her out of her side b (its been happening to me quite often now)

BatsWithin feels super wonky. Like its activating randomly or when it wants too which kinda throws me off since im not expecting it.
"Camping" in this game, in the traditional sense, does not work. You can't sit a distance away from the opponent spamming bullets, wait for the opponent to approach, and punish that approach. Bullets Arts and Bullet Climax both have a LOT of cooldown, and trying to sit on them isn't going to be successful. Camping in this game is a lot quicker, and done very opportunistically. It's more like a reminder to the opponent that they can't keep their distance, so pepper them here and there to keep them pestered and always coming at you. But never for more than a second, because the lag is too much to sit on.

Doing this, it's my belief that Bayonetta doesn't have a neutral game. Unless she's being hit, she's always at an advantage.

Bullet Arts have pitiful damage, yes. I don't think they're 1% on their own.

Are you using Dive Kick? You don't mention it specifically, so I'm wondering how you're using it.
 

elegyempty

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We need different abbreviations for Witch Twist and Witch Time lmao, I always get momentarily confused
W (witch time)
W (witch twist)

edit: ah it doesnt look like smashboards supports emoji whoops
 
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Lakuto

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Most likely, 80% sure, they count as Dtilt.
I think that's not accurate. Bullet arts stale the move you are using (even if one bullet touch it counts like one move)

Example:
-after 10 bullet arts Nair => Nair does 4%
-after 10 bullet arts Nair => Dtilt does 6%
-after 10 bullet arts Dtilt => Dtilt does 3%
-after 10 Dtilt => bullet arts Dtilt does 5% (instead of 10% not stale)

Also, if you hit the move AND the bullet art of that same move, it counts as 2 moves in the stale list it seems but it weird, sometimes the numbers don't correspond:
-after 4 Dtilt => Dtilt does 4%
-after 2 Dtilt with bullet art => Dtilt does 5%
-after 5 Dtilt => Dtilt does 4%
-after 3 Dtilt => Dtilt does 5%
-after 2 Dtilt with bullet art + 1 Dtilt => Dtilt does 4%

So yeah, choosing wisely the moves you bullet art at kill percent can make a difference.

PS: correct me if I'm bull****ting somewhere
 
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SonicNKnux

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Doing this, it's my belief that Bayonetta doesn't have a neutral game. Unless she's being hit, she's always at an advantage.
Pretty much. Even if you're just tomahawking, if you aren't moving you're either hitting or getting hit. There's not much of a neutral to her. I like to micro space a lot when I use her. If my opponent is the aggressor I d-tilt Bullet Arts, run back a bit, poke with f-tilt 1, pivot grab, retreat with a b-air or held n-air, then eventually jump over to their other side while trying to collide with a held u-air. I'll keep this up with poking till an opportunity arises.
 
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Shadow the Past

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pHgoCNKHh4c
Is this real? Cant test atm. Could be really game breaking
From D1's tweet it seems like dash grabs only whiff if you try to do it while already directly behind Bayo. I imagine the grab hitbox is actually reaching past Bayo due to her stance. If you space yourself away from Bayo first and then dash grab, it'll connect. (Haven't tested yet so can't confirm.)
 

Theosmeo

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Well that's good, pikachu seemed like the most difficult of the top tiers to deal with but this might aliviate this. Reminds me of melee yoshi's dash grab
 

haxfactory

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I think that's not accurate. Bullet arts stale the move you are using (even if one bullet touch it counts like one move)

Example:
-after 10 bullet arts Nair => Nair does 4%
-after 10 bullet arts Nair => Dtilt does 6%
-after 10 bullet arts Dtilt => Dtilt does 3%
-after 10 Dtilt => bullet arts Dtilt does 5% (instead of 10% not stale)

Also, if you hit the move AND the bullet art of that same move, it counts as 2 moves in the stale list it seems but it weird, sometimes the numbers don't correspond:
-after 4 Dtilt => Dtilt does 4%
-after 2 Dtilt with bullet art => Dtilt does 5%
-after 5 Dtilt => Dtilt does 4%
-after 3 Dtilt => Dtilt does 5%
-after 2 Dtilt with bullet art + 1 Dtilt => Dtilt does 4%

So yeah, choosing wisely the moves you bullet art at kill percent can make a difference.

PS: correct me if I'm bull****ting somewhere
I'm pretty sure that's correct. I've noticed that I'll go from going up a percent after 1-2 hits to it taking as much as 4 hits just to go up a percent when shooting bullets with nair.

Plus, have you ever Witch Timed a bullet arts? It hits them.

The bullet arts are disjointed transcendent hitboxes for the move. So they are just additional hits of the attack you are using.

So you can't use bullet arts of the same move to unstale them, you'd actually stale them further that way.
 
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Sonicninja115

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RE: Bullets count as staling

Okay, so my hypothesis is that Mewtwo's Usmash is a multi hit move, however, it only takes 1 slot in the staling queue.

Fox's laser is a 1 shot/ 1 move thing, each time you press B a laser comes out, so each laser counts as a separate move.

So, because Dtilt and Dtilt BA are technically the same move, wouldn't they not stale for each hit? (I had a better move besides Usmash but I forgot what it was.)

I am not a master of staling knowledge, so I could be wrong. I am going to ask in the Mechanics and tech Q&A section.
 

DisidisiD

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I think that's not accurate. Bullet arts stale the move you are using (even if one bullet touch it counts like one move)

Example:
-after 10 bullet arts Nair => Nair does 4%
-after 10 bullet arts Nair => Dtilt does 6%
-after 10 bullet arts Dtilt => Dtilt does 3%
-after 10 Dtilt => bullet arts Dtilt does 5% (instead of 10% not stale)

Also, if you hit the move AND the bullet art of that same move, it counts as 2 moves in the stale list it seems but it weird, sometimes the numbers don't correspond:
-after 4 Dtilt => Dtilt does 4%
-after 2 Dtilt with bullet art => Dtilt does 5%
-after 5 Dtilt => Dtilt does 4%
-after 3 Dtilt => Dtilt does 5%
-after 2 Dtilt with bullet art + 1 Dtilt => Dtilt does 4%

So yeah, choosing wisely the moves you bullet art at kill percent can make a difference.

PS: correct me if I'm bull****ting somewhere
Are you sure you used the same dtilt hitbox each time? Her foot has a different hit box than her thigh which does 1 more percent.
 

Lakuto

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Are you sure you used the same dtilt hitbox each time? Her foot has a different hit box than her thigh which does 1 more percent.
I did it with the tip of the Dtilt everytime I'm pretty sure. It was a quick test to make a point though, I expect someone to have a full explanation with all this (footage and whatnot). I ain't no expert about staling
 

Tobi_Whatever

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RE: Bullets count as staling

Okay, so my hypothesis is that Mewtwo's Usmash is a multi hit move, however, it only takes 1 slot in the staling queue.

Fox's laser is a 1 shot/ 1 move thing, each time you press B a laser comes out, so each laser counts as a separate move.

So, because Dtilt and Dtilt BA are technically the same move, wouldn't they not stale for each hit? (I had a better move besides Usmash but I forgot what it was.)

I am not a master of staling knowledge, so I could be wrong. I am going to ask in the Mechanics and tech Q&A section.
Yes they only take one slot IIRC
 

CreatureComforts

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RE: Bullets count as staling

Okay, so my hypothesis is that Mewtwo's Usmash is a multi hit move, however, it only takes 1 slot in the staling queue.

Fox's laser is a 1 shot/ 1 move thing, each time you press B a laser comes out, so each laser counts as a separate move.

So, because Dtilt and Dtilt BA are technically the same move, wouldn't they not stale for each hit? (I had a better move besides Usmash but I forgot what it was.)

I am not a master of staling knowledge, so I could be wrong. I am going to ask in the Mechanics and tech Q&A section.
Staling is determined by input. Mewtwo's Usmash takes one slot in the staling queue because you have only inputted Usmash once, whereas in your example with fox, you input neutral B multiple times, hence multiple slots. I do not believe BA would stale moves, because you are not doing an extra input, only prolonging your input.

DISCLAIMER: I am by no means an expert on this, and have no idea how staling with BA actually works. I am only making an observation based on what I do know. Take this with a grain of salt.
 

BlackCephie

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I take it you've watched his "Where's Bayonetta in the tier list?" Video? That's"I don't want my Sheik to lose to Nairo's Bayonetta" bias. Seriously, Nairo and Mew2king have already gotten the hang of her, while ZeRo apparently can't do squat with her.
I just dont think Bayo resonates with him tbh.
 
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