Meta Secrets of the Umbra: Bayonetta Metagame Discussion

[PK Gaming]

Man, that "sdi out of Witch Twist hing seems like it could be very fatal for Bayo in the long run." Is it difficult to do at least?

I wasn't able to do it consistently, so that's good at least. Seems like people are going to have to really look and anticipate that Witch Twist.

(avatar quote)

 

[Sonicninja115]

I just dont think Bayo resonates with him tbh.

After seeing Ninjalink he changed his mind. He considers her an easy top 10 apparently. He saw that the combos were still doable, even if some can be DI'ed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

i tend to keep my combos short and end with dive kick back to the stage to maintain stage presence/control.

 

[Ffamran]

So, sixriver's got some of Bayonetta's Bullet Climax data up: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...xjqBTA8pY14g/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=1777978906. It's frame 17 on startup, shoots at a minimum of 4 shots with the 4th shot being frame 37, and there's 70 total frames. Because her projectile's different compared to other characters who just shoot once and end it regardless if it's a multi-hit like Greninja's charged Water Shuriken or Ryu's Shakunetsu, Bayonetta's is a burst projectile. The closest to that is Sheik's Needle Storm. This makes her recovery "different". If we consider the 4th minimum shot to be the last hitbox, then it means Bullet Climax has 34 recovery frames which is just 1 frame off Mario's Fireball recovery frames. If we consider the startup alone, the first shot only, then it means she has 54 recovery frames. I'm going with the last shot since she's most likely going to use this at range while the first shot would only be for if she firing the wrong way for whatever reason or if she's using it up close which few projectiles are ever used like that outside of item ones, but those still have startup for them to be taken out.

For Charge Bullets, they don't have the data up, but if we go with that almost all chargeable projectiles have the same recovery frames as their uncharged versions, then it's the same for Charge Bullets, especially since Bayonetta just fires normally after it.

TL;DR: Bullet Climax frame data and Bullet Climax has relatively low recovery.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So, sixriver's got some of Bayonetta's Bullet Climax data up: it's frame 17 on startup, shoots at a minimum of 4 shots with the 4th shot being frame 37, and there's 70 total frames. Because her projectile's different compared to other characters who just shoot once and end it regardless if it's a multi-hit like Greninja's charged Water Shuriken or Ryu's Shakunetsu, Bayonetta's is a burst projectile. The closest to that is Sheik's Needle Storm. This makes her recovery "different". If we consider the 4th minimum shot to be the last hitbox, then it means Bullet Climax has 34 recovery frames which is just 1 frame off Mario's Fireball recovery frames. If we consider the startup alone, the first shot only, then it means she has 54 recovery frames. I'm going with the last shot since she's most likely going to use this at range while the first shot would only be for if she firing the wrong way for whatever reason or if she's using it up close which few projectiles are ever used like that outside of item ones, but those still have startup for them to be taken out.

For Charge Bullets, they don't have the data up, but if we go with that almost all chargeable projectiles have the same recovery frames as their uncharged versions, then it's the same for Charge Bullets, especially since Bayonetta just fires normally after it.

TL;DR: Bullet Climax frame data and Bullet Climax has relatively low recovery.

Question, is that 71 FAF? I have everything else in FAF so I want to keep it that way.

 

[Ffamran]

Question, is that 71 FAF? I have everything else in FAF so I want to keep it that way.

Yes, total frames is just FAF + 1. I go with total frames because all other fighting games use it and sixriver does too. Total frames is just the total animation frames, hitbox and all. This is why when you add startup, active, and recovery frames together, you end up over 1 since recovery frames is the amount of frames after a hitbox ends and when you can act again which is just 1 frame after total frames. Recovery frames to me is more useful for players than FAF or total frames since they get to know exactly how many frames after the move they can act.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yes, total frames is just FAF + 1. I go with total frames because all other fighting games use it and sixriver does too. Total frames is just the total animation frames, hitbox and all. This is why when you add startup, active, and recovery frames together, you end up over 1 since recovery frames is the amount of frames after a hitbox ends and when you can act again which is just 1 frame after total frames. Recovery frames to me is more useful for players than FAF or total frames since they get to know exactly how many frames after the move they can act.

I saw the discussion in the other thread about it. That is going to be a hot topic for a while...

 

[Ffamran]

I saw the discussion in the other thread about it. That is going to be a hot topic for a while...

Ain't gonna be a topic 'cause I do what I want.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Ain't gonna be a topic 'cause I do what I want.

It is really just up to the labbers really. I choose FAF because that is what I first learned and must people use Kuro's frame data. It just makes it simpler for me.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So, sixriver's got some of Bayonetta's Bullet Climax data up: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...xjqBTA8pY14g/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=1777978906. It's frame 17 on startup, shoots at a minimum of 4 shots with the 4th shot being frame 37, and there's 70 total frames. Because her projectile's different compared to other characters who just shoot once and end it regardless if it's a multi-hit like Greninja's charged Water Shuriken or Ryu's Shakunetsu, Bayonetta's is a burst projectile. The closest to that is Sheik's Needle Storm. This makes her recovery "different". If we consider the 4th minimum shot to be the last hitbox, then it means Bullet Climax has 34 recovery frames which is just 1 frame off Mario's Fireball recovery frames. If we consider the startup alone, the first shot only, then it means she has 54 recovery frames. I'm going with the last shot since she's most likely going to use this at range while the first shot would only be for if she firing the wrong way for whatever reason or if she's using it up close which few projectiles are ever used like that outside of item ones, but those still have startup for them to be taken out.

For Charge Bullets, they don't have the data up, but if we go with that almost all chargeable projectiles have the same recovery frames as their uncharged versions, then it's the same for Charge Bullets, especially since Bayonetta just fires normally after it.

TL;DR: Bullet Climax frame data and Bullet Climax has relatively low recovery.

Yeah I noticed that yesterday when a Ganon punished it pretty well with his dSpecial.

 

[haxfactory]

After seeing Ninjalink he changed his mind. He considers her an easy top 10 apparently. He saw that the combos were still doable, even if some can be DI'ed.

A lot of the early Bayo play I've seen the opponent shows poor match up knowledge. Like there were quite a few at Xanadu and they were getting in by doing things high level players shouldn't have allowed. I think it's still way too early to tell what Bayo's spot is because it's obvious that people have not adapted to her yet.

 

[David Viran]

A lot of the early Bayo play I've seen the opponent shows poor match up knowledge. Like there were quite a few at Xanadu and they were getting in by doing things high level players shouldn't have allowed. I think it's still way too early to tell what Bayo's spot is because it's obvious that people have not adapted to her yet.

I wouldn't consider players at Xanadu high level players exactly.

 

[Pseud0]

Bayonetta seems to be getting a lot of hate lately. I personally hope the dash grab thing gets fixed but that's it. What do you guys think, new Sonic?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Bayonetta seems to be getting a lot of hate lately. I personally hope the dash grab thing gets fixed but that's it. What do you guys think, new Sonic?

Not nearly as boring to watch.

 

[Pseud0]

Not nearly as boring to watch.

True. She's everything people have been asking for, might just be that she's new that she's getting all the hate. She definitely is fun to watch tho.

 

[NinjaLink]

Bayonetta seems to be getting a lot of hate lately. I personally hope the dash grab thing gets fixed but that's it. What do you guys think, new Sonic?

Thats just terrible spacing. There would be no reason to do a dash grab when you're already close enough to do a standing grab. People are just finding stuff to complain about.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Thats just terrible spacing. There would be no reason to do a dash grab when you're already close enough to do a standing grab. People are just finding stuff to complain about.

If you dash grab from something besides a foxtrot, does the same happen?

A lot of the early Bayo play I've seen the opponent shows poor match up knowledge. Like there were quite a few at Xanadu and they were getting in by doing things high level players shouldn't have allowed. I think it's still way too early to tell what Bayo's spot is because it's obvious that people have not adapted to her yet.

tyrant lives with/near ZeRo, Void and Larry Lurr, as well as a ton of other PR'ed Sm4sh and Melee players. He should of had some MU knowledge. He should have at least known how to DI certain combos.

The thing is, the combos aren't always DI able. Sometimes you misread a combo, or just can't get out, even with correct DI. I am pretty sure Ninjalink could tell us somewhat the same thing.

 

[NinjaLink]

If you dash grab from something besides a foxtrot, does the same happen?

tyrant lives with/near ZeRo, Void and Larry Lurr, as well as a ton of other PR'ed Sm4sh and Melee players. He should of had some MU knowledge. He should have at least known how to DI certain combos.

The thing is, the combos aren't always DI able. Sometimes you misread a combo, or just can't get out, even with correct DI. I am pretty sure Ninjalink could tell us somewhat the same thing.

No because you're most likely be in front of them. It misses cause you try to grab past her.

As for combos, if the bayo is smart, you can reverse witch twist to confuse DI. You cant really see which one shes doing being she spins the same way regardless of which way shes facing. You can SDI out tho.

 

[BlackCephie]

Reposting this from a thread I made specifically to point out the true nature of Bayo's mobility potential. Id like to first point out NinjaLinks Bayo play.

http://youtu.be/McZy-5FJhGA

For all those that constantly refer to Bayonetta as being slow or lacking mobility, take yourself out of standard smash movement mindset and consider how ridiculously good After Burner kick and Witch Twist are at getting Bay around the map. These two moves allow her to not only move quickly, but also set her opponents up for combos and baits. It makes her way less predictable and much harder to punish.

http://youtu.be/9WvF03vcFWg

Not to mention the fact that neither ABK or WT put her in freefall. The technique of using these twomoves not just for damage but also as additional movement options may be one of her strongest techniques in terms of compensating for her run speed. Note how NinjaLink is able to mix in nair and dtilt to box out opponents on the ground before jetting back into the air seamlessly.

http://youtu.be/fdyBx4aq0To

By dancing around through the air NinjaLink is essentially able to nullify Shiek's ground speed and keep her in a state of confusion. You can also witness this against other characters in the other Nebulous Prime 26 NinjaLink matches.

I made this a seperate thread because I feel that this could be one of the most important techniques to master for Bayonetta mains and shines a keystone in any Bayo playstyle, and wanted it to standout for people just picking up Bayonetta or stuck tryingto figure out how to use her in neutral.

 

[haxfactory]

That is interesting NinjaLink, because it's really not super hard to b-reverse an up b. Anyone that ever played a character that can't grab a ledge from behind (I've played a ton of Peach) would be more than comfortable using that to mix up the opponent's DI.

Mostly what I was talking about was that a lot of people still seem to be getting hit by grounded side b even in tournaments. I could see it hitting on landing, but it doesn't seem like you can really do anything out of side b anyway, so there is really no reason not to just sit in shield and try to shield grab is there?

 

[BlackCephie]

That is interesting NinjaLink, because it's really not super hard to b-reverse an up b. Anyone that ever played a character that can't grab a ledge from behind (I've played a ton of Peach) would be more than comfortable using that to mix up the opponent's DI.

Mostly what I was talking about was that a lot of people still seem to be getting hit by grounded side b even in tournaments. I could see it hitting on landing, but it doesn't seem like you can really do anything out of side b anyway, so there is really no reason not to just sit in shield and try to shield grab is there?

Actually side b plus the flip kick at the end has almost no recovery. You can upb almost instantly afterwards. If you watch some of the NinjaLink vids I posted above you will see what I mean. In grand finals, Anti actually stopped trying to punish it because he kept eating the upb to combo right after.

 

[Sonicninja115]

No because you're most likely be in front of them. It misses cause you try to grab past her.

As for combos, if the bayo is smart, you can reverse witch twist to confuse DI. You cant really see which one shes doing being she spins the same way regardless of which way shes facing. You can SDI out tho.

How hard is it to SDI up B? I haven't been able to test it yet, but is it a simpler SDI or is it more of a correct timing/read but you still might not make it SDI? Also, would reversing Up B affect the SDI?

 

[David Viran]

That is interesting NinjaLink, because it's really not super hard to b-reverse an up b. Anyone that ever played a character that can't grab a ledge from behind (I've played a ton of Peach) would be more than comfortable using that to mix up the opponent's DI.

Mostly what I was talking about was that a lot of people still seem to be getting hit by grounded side b even in tournaments. I could see it hitting on landing, but it doesn't seem like you can really do anything out of side b anyway, so there is really no reason not to just sit in shield and try to shield grab is there?

You'd be surprised. There are a lot of moves that theoretically you should never be hit by but works out different in a tournament setting. Also isn't impossible to SDI completely out of a grounded WT?

 

[Sonicninja115]

One thing I have noticed about Heel slide is that you don't need the kick to combo. At higher Percents (70%ish?) you can just combo heel slide -Twist.

 

[NinjaLink]

Depends on distance and when it hits. As for the up-b, its harder to reverse in combos without bayo shifting away from the opponent. You have to just do a normal turnaround up-b and not a b-reverse. B-reverse causes the shift. At the same time you'll have to hold forward to move into them. Easiest way around this would be b-sticking or doing frame perfect turnaround up-b's in combos. Doing it out of shield however is quite easy.

 

[Lakuto]

Reposting this from a thread I made specifically to point out the true nature of Bayo's mobility potential. Id like to first point out NinjaLinks Bayo play.

http://youtu.be/McZy-5FJhGA

For all those that constantly refer to Bayonetta as being slow or lacking mobility, take yourself out of standard smash movement mindset and consider how ridiculously good After Burner kick and Witch Twist are at getting Bay around the map. These two moves allow her to not only move quickly, but also set her opponents up for combos and baits. It makes her way less predictable and much harder to punish.

http://youtu.be/9WvF03vcFWg

Not to mention the fact that neither ABK or WT put her in freefall. The technique of using these twomoves not just for damage but also as additional movement options may be one of her strongest techniques in terms of compensating for her run speed. Note how NinjaLink is able to mix in nair and dtilt to box out opponents on the ground before jetting back into the air seamlessly.

http://youtu.be/fdyBx4aq0To

By dancing around through the air NinjaLink is essentially able to nullify Shiek's ground speed and keep her in a state of confusion. You can also witness this against other characters in the other Nebulous Prime 26 NinjaLink matches.

I made this a seperate thread because I feel that this could be one of the most important techniques to master for Bayonetta mains and shines a keystone in any Bayo playstyle, and wanted it to standout for people just picking up Bayonetta or stuck tryingto figure out how to use her in neutral.

You can use balloon and ducks for mobility: http://smashboards.com/threads/secr...tagame-discussion.430130/page-4#post-20855414

I'm not sure but I think I was able to do a second ABK after hitting Toon Link's bombs. Would be cool to know if any other move from other character can be used for mobility too.

 

[NinjaLink]

You can use balloon and ducks for mobility: http://smashboards.com/threads/secr...tagame-discussion.430130/page-4#post-20855414

I'm not sure but I think I was able to do a second ABK after hitting Toon Link's bombs. Would be cool to know if any other move from other character can be used for mobility too.

I was considering this when i was in tourney

 

[Lakuto]

Also, if someone knows the pattern of the balloons it would be nice too. On Smashville it seems like it appears every 30 seconds but on T&C I don't know.

 

[Shadow the Past]

Reposting this from a thread I made specifically to point out the true nature of Bayo's mobility potential. Id like to first point out NinjaLinks Bayo play.

http://youtu.be/McZy-5FJhGA

For all those that constantly refer to Bayonetta as being slow or lacking mobility, take yourself out of standard smash movement mindset and consider how ridiculously good After Burner kick and Witch Twist are at getting Bay around the map. These two moves allow her to not only move quickly, but also set her opponents up for combos and baits. It makes her way less predictable and much harder to punish.

http://youtu.be/9WvF03vcFWg

Not to mention the fact that neither ABK or WT put her in freefall. The technique of using these twomoves not just for damage but also as additional movement options may be one of her strongest techniques in terms of compensating for her run speed. Note how NinjaLink is able to mix in nair and dtilt to box out opponents on the ground before jetting back into the air seamlessly.

http://youtu.be/fdyBx4aq0To

By dancing around through the air NinjaLink is essentially able to nullify Shiek's ground speed and keep her in a state of confusion. You can also witness this against other characters in the other Nebulous Prime 26 NinjaLink matches.

I made this a seperate thread because I feel that this could be one of the most important techniques to master for Bayonetta mains and shines a keystone in any Bayo playstyle, and wanted it to standout for people just picking up Bayonetta or stuck tryingto figure out how to use her in neutral.

The issue I have with using ABK and WTw to move around is the carry-over lag you receive from using the moves. When you land, you're getting anywhere from ~10-30 frames of landing lag (depending on how many special moves you used), which will definitely lead to punishes once people start adapting to that.

I do use ABK and WTw currently in my stage movement, but I feel like once I play against a fast character like Fox or something, the hard punishes on my landings are going to come out.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

You'd be surprised. There are a lot of moves that theoretically you should never be hit by but works out different in a tournament setting. Also isn't impossible to SDI completely out of a grounded WT?

I'm a bad masher but I managed to quarter circle SDI completely out of uSpecial with the help of slo-mo training mode.

 

[David Viran]

I'm a bad masher but I managed to quarter circle SDI completely out of uSpecial with the help of slo-mo training mode.

Hmm. What is the difficulty of actually SDIing out of WTw consistently? I know the two videos of it being done were by players known for being SDI gods.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Hmm. What is the difficulty of actually SDIing out of WTw consistently? I know the two videos of it being done were by players known for being SDI gods.

Speed

 

[SameOldG]

I've been practising "hiding" the combo starters fair and dive kick "in" a nair (hold) I like the deception of it and makes a nair even more intimidating knowing it can lead to a stock!

 

[BlackCephie]

The issue I have with using ABK and WTw to move around is the carry-over lag you receive from using the moves. When you land, you're getting anywhere from ~10-30 frames of landing lag (depending on how many special moves you used), which will definitely lead to punishes once people start adapting to that.

I do use ABK and WTw currently in my stage movement, but I feel like once I play against a fast character like Fox or something, the hard punishes on my landings are going to come out.

Thats why you use the dive kick version or you throw out a low lag aerial on landing. Plus you can jump out of ABK. You really should never be landing raw in any case.

 

[NinjaLink]

Use witch time before you land if you exhausted all your b moves for the least amount of lag

 

[Sonicninja115]

Updated the OP with pictures and changed the layout. Thoughts? Input? Blank space that you have the info to fill?

 

[Deaga]

Use witch time before you land if you exhausted all your b moves for the least amount of lag

Is something like landing on charging bullet climax > Shield cancel > Do any OoS option also viable as a landing to cancel lag from using aerial specials? I literally just thought that up right now, no idea how good that actually is.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Is something like landing on charging bullet climax > Shield cancel > Do any OoS option also viable as a landing to cancel lag from using aerial specials? I literally just thought that up right now, no idea how good that actually is.

after doing multiple/1 special in the air, yo]u are forced to fire BC. I have tried many things, and I always fire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjQw2lzolcM
this video showcases this anomaly and other things.

 

[NinjaLink]

Yea I was thinking the same thing days ago but the only way to bypass it is grabbing the ledge and witch time.

 

[BlackCephie]

Is something like landing on charging bullet climax > Shield cancel > Do any OoS option also viable as a landing to cancel lag from using aerial specials? I literally just thought that up right now, no idea how good that actually is.

This is why dABK is such a good option. If you hit them, you are safe on shield or get a combo. If you are just trying to create space, then at least you slide away from them a bit and you recover fairly quickly. Honestl, dABK gives her scary mobility and conversion potential. especially if you that is the only move you did.