Magus420
Smash Master
If that theory is correct, it'd only be possible if you normal hit sweetspot something else while also phantoming them, since the sweetspot is only 3 frames long and their hitlag will always be longer than that.
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Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]
- Thread starter Scar
- Start date
ihavespaceblondes
Smash Master
Yeah, that's what I meant, I just phrased it poorly.
Also thanks for clearing that up Magus, that's awesome. Do you have a spreadsheet somewhere with all the attacks and how much they stale, or is there a formula that you can use to calculate it, or what?
On Yoshi Story: strong phantom knee opponent and strong knee a shy guy -> strong knee opponent.
GooeyBanana
Smash Lord
*scratches head*
Magus420
Smash Master
Yeah, you can calculate it. The damage part of it anyway. I don't know how stale moves affects non-item projectile knockback growth.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9016367&postcount=6176
TresChikon
Smash Lord
Tomacawk
Smash Master
falco's projectile is an item, right? It counts as an item thrown in the postgame...so it is an item? or is item defined as can be caught and thrown back?
O.o
O.o
who cares? it has a set 0 knockback, 
PCHU
Smash Lord
Does anyone have any advice for fighting Falco, Fox, Jigglypuff, Peach, and Marth?
I'm not too good myself, so I won't go posting any videos of my gameplay.
I just need to know what all I should utilize.
Like, during battle, is it safe to retreat with SHFFL nair or not?
And what should I look out for in these matchups?
Also, combos.
What all do I have on them?
Since I hardly ever fight these characters (nobody I know uses them regularly, and nobody uses them well, so I have no real practice besides computers, which I still don't know what can be DI'd out of or not since my observations aren't very sharp), I need information on what I should do against these characters in case I ever go against them.
I'm not asking for a detailed description, I just need a good summary.
I'm not too good myself, so I won't go posting any videos of my gameplay.
I just need to know what all I should utilize.
Like, during battle, is it safe to retreat with SHFFL nair or not?
And what should I look out for in these matchups?
Also, combos.
What all do I have on them?
Since I hardly ever fight these characters (nobody I know uses them regularly, and nobody uses them well, so I have no real practice besides computers, which I still don't know what can be DI'd out of or not since my observations aren't very sharp), I need information on what I should do against these characters in case I ever go against them.
I'm not asking for a detailed description, I just need a good summary.
Magus420
Smash Master
Falco's lasers don't have any KBG, so it doesn't matter for them.
Moves affected by both staled damage and staled growth (like Brawl's system):
Doc's pills, Mario/Luigi's fireballs, Yoshi's eggs, Fox's illusion, Falco's phantasm, Ness' PK-thunder/flash/fire, ICs' ice blocks/blizzard, Kirby's up-b projectile/neutral-b projectiles, Samus' charged shot/missiles/bombs, Zelda's din's fire, Sheik's needles/up-B explosion, Link/YLink's boomerangs/arrows, Pika/Pichu's thunder jolts/thunder (not the ground hit), M2's shadow balls, and G&W's sausages.
(the red ones are the attacks with enough KBG to have a significant effect on KB, and bolded are ones that are kill moves and are affected the most)
If it doesn't have a good amount of growth it won't make much of a difference overall. If it's mostly just base knockback (KB doesn't scale very much with increased damage), it's not very noticeable even when fully staled until very high damages.
Moves affected by both staled damage and staled growth (like Brawl's system):
Doc's pills, Mario/Luigi's fireballs, Yoshi's eggs, Fox's illusion, Falco's phantasm, Ness' PK-thunder/flash/fire, ICs' ice blocks/blizzard, Kirby's up-b projectile/neutral-b projectiles, Samus' charged shot/missiles/bombs, Zelda's din's fire, Sheik's needles/up-B explosion, Link/YLink's boomerangs/arrows, Pika/Pichu's thunder jolts/thunder (not the ground hit), M2's shadow balls, and G&W's sausages.
(the red ones are the attacks with enough KBG to have a significant effect on KB, and bolded are ones that are kill moves and are affected the most)
If it doesn't have a good amount of growth it won't make much of a difference overall. If it's mostly just base knockback (KB doesn't scale very much with increased damage), it's not very noticeable even when fully staled until very high damages.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
here are general tips
fox-don't get too outrageous with edgeguards of you'll screw up and get shine spiked. when he's on your shield it's best to roll away (if they're technically sound). tech chases and grabs are the key to your victory. you don't need to be ******, but as long as you're comboing him he can't be comboing you, so keep the pressure on. utilt ledgeguard ***** his up b. if you approach use nair
falco-same stuff with fox, except go nuts on the ledgeguards. hit him with anything at any % offmap and he basically dies. powershield = huge. use plats to avoid lasers, don't let up once you get your hit
puff-gay
peach-gay. just space nairs out of cc dsmash range and uair when she's above you. properly timed stomp trades with her up b and basically kills her
marf-do nothing but dd camp. approach with nair if you must. grab the legde->ledge hop knee for ledge guards. be patient, most marfs utilt after a whiffed aerial when they approach and it'll own you if you try to punish most of their approaches
edit-also the reason i told you not to post vids in the fox boards anymore isn't because you suck, it's because your opponents suck. if your mistakes aren't punished then it's hard to explain that you ARE making mistakes, ya dig
PCHU
Smash Lord
Ahh, alright, then.
By the way, thanks for the advice.
Marth was giving me issues.
Not because I was actually fighting him, but just thinking about his approach game and the various advantages he has from using him myself.
Nakamaru
Smash Master
I've seen phantom knee>knee once. It was a falcon vs marth friendly at ROM2. The falcon did a falling knee, and it hit strong twice. It was pretty sexy.
The Irish Mafia
Banned via Administration
PCHU, the marth matchup is actually pretty good for falcon.
General tips for the matchup, I'd say bait the fsmash or wait for marth to approach stupidly. You can sg him or nair, and then go nuts. The trick is having your nair to **** combos down so you can start your sex combos the second he whiffs something
General tips for the matchup, I'd say bait the fsmash or wait for marth to approach stupidly. You can sg him or nair, and then go nuts. The trick is having your nair to **** combos down so you can start your sex combos the second he whiffs something
Fortress | Sveet
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Falcon vs Marth:
Dash back to stomp beats marth's dtilt and dash attack approaches
spaced nairs beats everything else.
if he uses any move you can sideb him then ****.
you have more speed and evasion, so abuse it.
Dash back to stomp beats marth's dtilt and dash attack approaches
spaced nairs beats everything else.
if he uses any move you can sideb him then ****.
you have more speed and evasion, so abuse it.
Nakamaru
Smash Master
watch out for marths that approach with delayed nairs. Its best to just shield grab it instead or trying to out space it. it'll beat out your nair even if you space it correctly. You can knee OOS if marth f-smashes and doesn't tip your shield. You can also get up-tilts with knee or nair if they space them wrong. They are a little tricky sometimes though.
i feel crazy one thing i cant seem to stop is constant smashing.
straight c-stick smashes expecially with marth can someone tell me how to stop this
i put my shield up and sometimes it hits me past my shield and when i wave dash back i get foward smashed with marth
straight c-stick smashes expecially with marth can someone tell me how to stop this
i put my shield up and sometimes it hits me past my shield and when i wave dash back i get foward smashed with marth
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Dash dance. dont commit to an attack until you know its safe.
Dash in and out of tipper range and when he fires, punish with a nair or grab into **** combo.
Dash in and out of tipper range and when he fires, punish with a nair or grab into **** combo.
Fortress | Sveet
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i've watched your sig 99 times. Obviously i see when it says GTFO, but it looks like the letters next to it spell "HAT".
so tell me, what is a GTFO HAT?
edit- and why are there two 'T's on the same keyboard?
where do you see the second t? I only see GTFOHA and a tooth
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Practice more.
If you can l cancel once then just keep practicing until you are consistent.
If you can l cancel once then just keep practicing until you are consistent.
tubes
Smash Ace
Also keep in mind that when you hit something there are a few frames of hitlag, during which you cannot fast fall.
Quick question about fox/falco that has probably already been answered before. When spacies try to recover with illusion/phantasm whats the best option to intercept and punish? I know I can downward ftilt and dtilt them if they try sweetspot, but what about if they go high and attempt to hit with it? Should I shield, knee, or something else? If I do knee should it be before or after the illusion or is it situational? I'm leaning towards kneeing where the illusion should land, but I'd like to see what you guys think.
Scar
#HarveyDent
turn around and shield, you usually can't jump over it unless you predict it, in which case being above them ready for a stomp is ideal. dair is the best punishment you can deal out bc it combos into knee from like 60-240%
D
Deleted member
Guest
sorry for not playing a **** ton of friendlies scar
Alright, I was trying to find out my options since I'm kinda unfamiliar with the matchup. Thanks, Scar. Good job cs ss in those dittos, it was very exciting to watch over livestream.
edit- About puff, what can realiably work against her? Bair seems to work if spaced right, but I can't seem to really punish much since she is so floaty. I know dthrow knee is supposed to work, but at what percents, and when can she rest out of it?
edit- About puff, what can realiably work against her? Bair seems to work if spaced right, but I can't seem to really punish much since she is so floaty. I know dthrow knee is supposed to work, but at what percents, and when can she rest out of it?
Fortress | Sveet
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oh i see it as a tooth now. it looked like a key with some sort of floating blood drop on it. when it goes by you can definitely see the letter T on it though XD
Nakamaru
Smash Master
it's an old sig anyway. I need to find a new one.
couple things
no offense sveet but almost everything you said in your how to fight marth post was false, dash back stomp doesnt evade dash attack, spaced nair doesnt beat anything marth can do so long as marth spaces, forward b only beats improperly executed moves by marth
scar you gotta work on your **** man, stomp combos into knee on fastfallers as early as like 42% if youre man enough
also an ancient secret trick for when spacies forward b recover from the ledge is to roll away, youll end up right next to them in time to grab
no offense sveet but almost everything you said in your how to fight marth post was false, dash back stomp doesnt evade dash attack, spaced nair doesnt beat anything marth can do so long as marth spaces, forward b only beats improperly executed moves by marth
scar you gotta work on your **** man, stomp combos into knee on fastfallers as early as like 42% if youre man enough
also an ancient secret trick for when spacies forward b recover from the ledge is to roll away, youll end up right next to them in time to grab
Slashtap
Smash Cadet
Why do I see sometimes they upthrow chase and sometimes they downthrow chase on Fox? How do you choose which one you want to do?
Tomacawk
Smash Master
dthrow gives them more space to DI and youmore time to react, uthrow gives them less space to di and you less time to react
dthrow is a chokeslam
use it every time
dthrow is a chokeslam
use it every time
SuperMatt
Smash Champion
yeah
up throw when you are near the edge so they cant DI off the stage and avoid a tech chase opportunity
down throw otherwise
not that it matters...its mostly preference
up throw when you are near the edge so they cant DI off the stage and avoid a tech chase opportunity
down throw otherwise
not that it matters...its mostly preference
I find it difficult to choose sometimes...A couple tricks to note...
Dthrow is alot better if you're trying to draw a missed tech out of a shieldgrab/suprise grab because even good players miss that tech often enough to try it out. It also sets up well for Dsmash techchase (missed tech, tech in place, and tech back all at once) as long as they don't DI away. You get to move a little quicker with this at low%.
Uthrow will put them alot closer to you if they don't DI hard away, this is good for sideB techchase, (missed, in place, and away, you choose the side, just start it right as they hit and you have to be right on top of them). Mixing in these will make your dthrows at low% more suprising if you are hoping for that missed tech..
Dthrow is alot better if you're trying to draw a missed tech out of a shieldgrab/suprise grab because even good players miss that tech often enough to try it out. It also sets up well for Dsmash techchase (missed tech, tech in place, and tech back all at once) as long as they don't DI away. You get to move a little quicker with this at low%.
Uthrow will put them alot closer to you if they don't DI hard away, this is good for sideB techchase, (missed, in place, and away, you choose the side, just start it right as they hit and you have to be right on top of them). Mixing in these will make your dthrows at low% more suprising if you are hoping for that missed tech..
tubes
Smash Ace
If there too close to the edge, however, there's really nothing you can do to keep them on the stage. At that point it's probably best to D-throw and go for the edge guard.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Smarter foxes when getting down thrown near the edge, but not AT the edge (dropzone range or beyond) will bounce onto the edge and "edge-cancel" into ledge grab. You can up-throw instead at this point but sometimes it will sort of suck also
Juggleguy
Smash Grimer
Why don't more Falcons punish get-up attacks by crouch canceling into grab? I was messing around with this today and it *****. Seems like it works into the mid to high percentages.
Fortress | Sveet
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shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't tell them those lies.