Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[boxelder]

Good post man. Just a few things.

1st off, you're right, Forte did win without using a single projectile. However, in an earlier tournament, Azen beat M2K by shooting arrows with pit, and rolling. That's all. The 8 minute match ended with M2K having all four lives, but having 50% damage in arrows. Azen won by damage.

That's just silly though. There's all kinds of ways to outlaw that kind of butt****ery, and really I think I player would be able to counter constant rolling once they'd encountered it a few times. A few well timed dash attacks seems like it could do the job.

Also, about Forte beating Azen...IMO, this just proves the argument that less skilled players can beat good players.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Forte. He's a good player. However, Azen has been playing smash competitively for years. His knowledge of not just smash, but competitive gaming has surely carried over to Brawl.

If a truly deep, competitive game were the sequel to Melee, then no random player would be able to beat Azen, due to not only Azen's Melee experience carrying over, but also it's a known fact that Azen is a genius at video games in general. I suspect that if a game as deep as Melee, not the same, but as deep, came out instead of Brawl, Forte would not be able to beat Azen.

Just my thoughts.

Forte is a really good player, and he didn't just beat Azen, he beat Vidjo, and a whole assortment of players on his way there. That's the definition of consistency. I've been watching a lot of his matches over the last month and half and he's won nearly all of them, and not just using metaknight. I think he just has really great timing naturally. If you watch his matches against Azen's Ike the timing he uses to punish Ike's lag is really an impressive display. esp considering Ike can KO Meta in about 4-5 hots where it takes Meta over a dozen just to get IKE to KO territory. Also, just becaus ehe didn't attend many melee tourneys doesn't mean he wasn't a good player. I bet there's a ton of relatively undiscovered tallent out there.

Finally Azen could actually be hampered by his Melee programming, given how different the characters moves behave.

Really the most convincing point is that Forte wins consistently, as I'm sure anyone who'se been watching his play will confirm.

 

[Dogenzaka]

I really do find it sad that such a thread has turned into garbage due to a few members.
We need a "Intelligent Discussion" area. With heavy modding >.<

Impossible. Members get too offended by the fact someone disagrees with them.

http://forums.philosophyforums.com/p...y-of-language/

Go ahead and bring this up there. Go ahead and make a thread asking whether or not words only mean what the dictionary says.

Dip****.

LOL if you were using an online forum to prove to me you have any sort of education in language or philosophy.

People with high degrees and education in philosophy and language wouldn't be wasting their life on an internet forum night discussion, FYI.

But you won't find that in the OED (which, by the way, is the respected authority on the English language... not Merriam-Webster).

Correct, you would find "owned" in the Urban Dictionary, or Encyclopaedia Dramatica, considering it's a comical internet term.

 

[Pink Reaper]

That's just silly though. There's all kinds of ways to outlaw that kind of butt****ery, and really I think I player would be able to counter constant rolling once they'd encountered it a few times. A few well timed dash attacks seems like it could do the job.

No, you cant outlaw something like this because its not anything other than abusing obviously broken game mechanics on the most basic level. There's no glitch, there's no game breaking hack, its just poor game design and will be abused as such.

Forte is a really good player, and he didn't just beat Azen, he beat Vidjo, and a whole assortment of players on his way there. That's the definition of consistency. I've been watching a lot of his matches over the last month and half and he's won nearly all of them, and not just using metaknight. I think he just has really great timing naturally. If you watch his matches against Azen's Ike the timing he uses to punish Ike's lag is really an impressive display. esp considering Ike can KO Meta in about 4-5 hots where it takes Meta over a dozen just to get IKE to KO territory. Also, just becaus ehe didn't attend many melee tourneys doesn't mean he wasn't a good player. I bet there's a ton of relatively undiscovered tallent out there.

Finally Azen could actually be hampered by his Melee programming, given how different the characters moves behave.

Really the most convincing point is that Forte wins consistently, as I'm sure anyone who'se been watching his play will confirm.

No, once again, Forte isn't nearly as good as Azen. He was good but not nearly to the level of Azen. However, with the coming of Brawl, what gap there was between them was destroyed as the game literally forced them down to the same level. The fact that Forte wins consistently doesn't really mean anything. Gimpyfish wins consistently in Brawl, and while he may be leagues above alot of people on these boards, he is NOT on the level of people like Azen. However, Brawl literally forces the skill of alot of these players down making it so it doesn't really matter who SHOULD be better, it just matters who picks the better character.

 

[Papapaint]

That's just silly though. There's all kinds of ways to outlaw that kind of butt****ery, and really I think I player would be able to counter constant rolling once they'd encountered it a few times. A few well timed dash attacks seems like it could do the job.



Forte is a really good player, and he didn't just beat Azen, he beat Vidjo, and a whole assortment of players on his way there. That's the definition of consistency. I've been watching a lot of his matches over the last month and half and he's won nearly all of them, and not just using metaknight. I think he just has really great timing naturally. If you watch his matches against Azen's Ike the timing he uses to punish Ike's lag is really an impressive display. esp considering Ike can KO Meta in about 4-5 hots where it takes Meta over a dozen just to get IKE to KO territory. Also, just becaus ehe didn't attend many melee tourneys doesn't mean he wasn't a good player. I bet there's a ton of relatively undiscovered tallent out there.

Finally Azen could actually be hampered by his Melee programming, given how different the characters moves behave.

Really the most convincing point is that Forte wins consistently, as I'm sure anyone who'se been watching his play will confirm.

Really?

I played him earlier. He won our "serious' set, but I was quite even with him the whole way through. My Falco beat him a couple times, and our Marth/Metaknight match was incredibly close until I suicided.

Forte's better than me, but I was able to do well vs. him simply by spamming projectiles with Falco and rolling/dodging. That tells me the game's uneven, because I am by no means a seasoned brawl veteran.

 

[boxelder]

Really?

I played him earlier. He won our "serious' set, but I was quite even with him the whole way through. My Falco beat him a couple times, and our Marth/Metaknight match was incredibly close until I suicided.

Forte's better than me, but I was able to do well vs. him simply by spamming projectiles with Falco and rolling/dodging. That tells me the game's uneven, because I am by no means a seasoned brawl veteran.

Put it on video or it didn't happen. And he won even though you were playing like a little ***** on wifi.

 

[boxelder]

No, once again, Forte isn't nearly as good as Azen. He was good but not nearly to the level of Azen. However, with the coming of Brawl, what gap there was between them was destroyed as the game literally forced them down to the same level. The fact that Forte wins consistently doesn't really mean anything. Gimpyfish wins consistently in Brawl, and while he may be leagues above alot of people on these boards, he is NOT on the level of people like Azen. However, Brawl literally forces the skill of alot of these players down making it so it doesn't really matter who SHOULD be better, it just matters who picks the better character.

I don't know if you're aware, but Brawl and Melee aren't the same game. Forte has as much experience in Brawl as anyone else at this point, if not more, certainly more than people who didn't import, people posting in this thread. Forte didn't drop a sing set, he took out almost everyone other than Azen in two games...but still, it's a fluke because he doesn't have smash board cred. In the game of put up or shut up, Forte win. "Who SHOULD be better." Classic smashboards.

Also I find that "picking the better character" comment hilarious coming from a melee vet.

 

[Mama]

Wow this thread is superb. Not because I whole heartedly agree with the original poster either. Its because These guys are completely shutting down all these blind fools who spout Brawl's superiority over Melee with idiotic reasons and ideals. The kind of chumps who use the terms tourneytard, tourneyfeg, elitist etc etc. A thread like this was doomed to see a flood of posts like that but what got me so impressed was the way the smart people (on both sides of the argument) shined through the hordes of fools.

Melee was a god among games in my opinion. I realized that 3 years ago when I watched a video of competitive play. I used to be one of the guys with a group of friends who thought they were good at the game. We thought we couldn't take our game any higher even though we wanted to. Then one day a friend of mine stumbled across Smashboards and discovered some tutorials and videos and we were amazed. Rather than play the fool and call them glitches and be satisfied with our style of play, we decided to adopt and learn the techniques. In doing so we began to realize just how big this game really was. The gap between being good and being bad was huge. If you wanted to win you had to train and practice hard. Had to get the movements down in your muscle memory and had to understand what moves did what at what percentage.

You were rewarded for what you put into the game. You got rewarded for the time spent training. By taking the time to learn. I advanced my skill level far beyond what it was before. Not simply because I knew a bunch of new "glitches" or "exploits" but because I viewed the game in a different light and understood what it meant to play to win. At a higher level of play, defensive and offensive strategies were equally matched. This is where Brawl suffers.

As it stands now, theres no real reason to get on the offensive if the game is so biased toward the defensive player. Lack of shield stun on a lot of moves means pressuring defensive players is going to be a lot riskier than before. Same goes for projectile spamming players/characters. Approaching them isn't really going to be worth it if the can shield grab you when you get close and get straight back to spamming projectiles.

And for the projectile spammer, when they do get a hold of their opponent, the lack of hit stun means that punishing them with a long combo is something you'll see often, as it stands now.

I agree that, right now, Melee is without a doubt more competitive than Brawl is. Because the elements of competitive play exist in equal amounts. Defensive, offensive, and punishment. Brawl however, leans toward the defensive and punishment just isn't that great since it takes so much work for so little pay off on the offensive part.

However, I don't think things will stay this way forever. I think its a tad unlikely that we know the final product of the Meta game so early on. Right now we're simply looking at the game through Melee eyes. And how else can we look at it? Its sort of hard to just shake off everything we've been doing for years. Everything we were used to was just thrown out the window. Now we're sitting here with this new very different game. But theres nothing we can do to make the game like Melee. Debating things wont make Brawl any more like Melee than running around spouting "this is not Melee 2.0" with no back up reasons. Complaining about things and "giving up on Brawl" wont make Melee come back into the here and now.

We need to look at Brawl differently. Who knows what the future holds. We certainly don't. Later on down the line we may learn what it takes to even the playing field between camping and offensive play. We may learn a better way to string together our attacks or ways to counter projectile based characters. And then again we may not. In the end it may really come down to a persons play style and mind games rather than completely relying on skill. That would mean a less competitive game of course. But not a terrible one.

Its going to take a different view of the game in order to truly evolve the Metagame. One day there may be some total scrub who does something completely "wierd" and "unorthodox" and that may be one of the key things that pushes Brawl forward. Right now our views are clouded by what we perceive as the standard which is why I have absolutely no doubt that Brawl will evolve to be something far greater than what it is now. Does that mean I have no doubt that it will be as competitive as Melee? No it doesn't. I don't know how competitive Brawl will be in the future. Nobody does. But what I do know is nobody can be absolutely certain of anything right now. For now, Melee is indeed more competitive. But we don't know what the future has in store. We may be going into Brawl with a central intelligence and a load of people trying to crack the game but that doesn't mean we're going about things correctly.

Again, excellent post Scar.

 

[Papapaint]

LOL if you were using an online forum to prove to me you have any sort of education in language or philosophy.

People with high degrees and education in philosophy and language wouldn't be wasting their life on an internet forum night discussion, FYI.

Right, but people who study it as a hobby would. Are you saying they're wrong, simply because they love the subject and study it? By god. Using your argument, bass guitar forums are unreliable because--even though many of the members study all the physics and intricacies of bass guitar and related subjects--they're not Bass Guitar Degree-holding members. This forum is wrong, because none of us have degrees in smash. XKCD forums are wrong, because most of those people only extensively study math, science, literature, and physics for fun or for school.

Correct, you would find "owned" in the Urban Dictionary, or Encyclopaedia Dramatica, considering it's a comical internet term.

Neither of which are considered reliable sources on the English language. You're contradicting yourself. You want to talk about a universal english dictionary, the only one is the OED. That's it. Nothing more. Any linguistics professor will tell you so, and using a colloquial term in a paper without a very good reason will surely knock you down a letter grade in any reasonable English course.

You are a Troll... not because you don't reply to posts, but because you're contradicting yourself, ignoring evidence against you, and posting entirely ignorant horse**** as fact.



But just to put an end to this argument, let me go ahead and give you a basic rundown of the philosophy of language. I mean, I don't have a Doctorate. I just study it.

Language is nothing more than an arbitrary system designed to establish a method of referral... that is to say, an assortment of phonemes into morphemes and words to ultimately be able to identify any idea, item, or concept. As such, most languages are incredibly flexible. The only exceptions to this are languages of logic, in which a word means one and only one thing. These are called First-Order Languages, and used extensively in computer science, logic, physics, and other practical applications. English, however, is incredibly arbitrary and constantly changing to meet new concepts and ideas.

This means that we, as a community, can change the language to fit our needs. Unless we all start speaking Lojban or Esperanto, then we have an arbitrary, malleable language. You're just plain wrong.

 

[behemoth]

Okay, let me try to steer this back a little bit.

Who the **** am I to try and post about **** like I know? It doesn't matter, my ideas do.



okay, now. A couple of points:

Let's do a hypothetical: Brawl is deeper than Melee (NOT CLAIMING THIS AS TRUE). However, due to the new physics engine, the depth that is found is nothing like Melee, ergo the poking and prodding into the engine needs to be done with a different mindset.

How long do you think that would take? Please don't give me "two weeks lulz" or "zomg four years", try to honestly think it out. The Lucas board has been jumping lately with some interesting discoveries that are all related to pushing around the engine.

Point number two:

I didn't read every post in the thread, though I read the entire OP (site's too slow), and I'm wondering how something like "theres a 50/50 chance between two players of only slightly differing skill levels" can be quantified?

I mean, I watched and took part in countless best-of-threes where two players who were close in skill went back and forth.

There are countless factors that decide a match: concentration, fingers slipping, a couple miscalculations, new mixups, etc.

This may be a completely accurate assertion, I just don't know how you can quantify it.

One last thought:

I've heard a lot of people rant about the rise of a king of noobs, the argument goes something like this:

"When all the top Melee players get bored with this shallow excuse for a game, they will leave, and some noob will assume the throne because of a generally less skilled competition pool."

I honestly don't understand this. To be the best at ANY game with a decent number of competing players takes dedication, which would mean that the best at brawl would be, well, pretty **** good.

Sorry, the last point I suppose is off-topic, but I just think that's a particularly weird piece of idiocy.

Happy smashing

 

[Papapaint]

Put it on video or it didn't happen. And he won even though you were playing like a little ***** on wifi.

Right, because he's much better than me. So much better that I shouldn't have won 1/3 of the games we played. Which I did.

Sorry I didn't think to record them to prove that I lost not too badly. When I rematch him next week, I'll let you know.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Also I find that "picking the better character" comment hilarious coming from a melee vet.

Who mains Kirby in Melee >.>

 

[Papapaint]

Behemoth, great post. I agree with most of what you said. I also wanted to tell you that your sig makes me laugh every single time I read it.

 

[g-regulate]

Scar i think your opinion is incorrect because, everyone just got the game and no one knows how to play. what if Melee and Brawl were released at the exact same time, and you played them an equal amount? would your opinions still be the same?

EDIT: i just think people are making too many assumptions about brawl when no one knows how to do anything actually "good" yet, thats why i think people are being quite presumptuous when it comes to discussion about it. ill agree, i dont think brawl will advance to the finger speed and timing of melee, but people are still selling brawl short, as if all brawl tournaments will be stupid and luck will have huge factors. finally, ill gladly money match anyone in this thread with my snake. im not good, but its brawl, and ill probably get lucky and win

 

[Scar]

I've gone over and over this until I'm blue in the face, but your ideas of what makes Melee more competitive than Brawl are completely unfounded.

The reason Brawl supporters are so short with you is because we hear the SAME. TIRED. BULL ****. Every thread on this board is more complaining. We get tired of making long posts refuting your points, so we tell you to shut your **** trap instead.

Look, we get it. You would rather play Melee. Most of us are content to not have to pick Marth, Fox or Shiek just to win a game now, or have to learn a bunch of convoluted "advanced techs" to play at high level. This doesn't make the game less competitive, it makes it MORE so. In the time you spend complaining you could be learning to counter, space and set up your combos, but instead you choose to whine about it not being the same game.

Even your precious Azen is ready to put Melee behind for many of these reasons. Many of us hardcore fans are glad to see Melee go as well. All I can say for you is that if you WANT Brawl to be a piece of s***, then thats how you're going to find it. Personally, I'm having too much fun with it to care.

This is the worst post I've ever seen. So bad that I've quoted it in its entirety. No one is short with me. You haven't even been short with us. You just say nothing in this whole post.

First, you tell me that my ideas are unfounded without anything to back it up. I stated in my first post that you can't just say I'm wrong. You need to give me a reason. Brawl supporters make no good points ever. You clearly demonstrate that I'm correct here.

Then, you talk about Melee like you know anything about it when you clearly don't. Melee has tons of usable characters, and many TOP PROFESSIONALS play mid-tier and under. You put "advanced techs" in quotes because you have no idea what they really do, how to use them, and how they add depth and creativity to the game. Then you tell me that I'm whining. I mean, I'm just trying to talk about the differences between games. I really don't see any whining on my part at all in this entire thread, 23 pages worth of my thoughts.

After that, you bring up a Melee pro who plays Brawl, and after that I've lost you.

What a waste of my time. This has no value whatsoever. Same with 100% of the words Dogenzaka types.

Boxelder may have the flu, but his tone is way too irritating for me to engage in conversation with him. Maybe if the guy learned to be civil I would try to sift through his garbage for an actual message, but right now it's awful. I just can't deal with him.

Even Midguy stopped being a jerk and had a good message behind him. I don't see why you guys can't stop being awful. I just wish there could be somewhere that we could talk about this intelligently. This single post infuriates me though. Wow. Way to prove everything that I've said in my OP. Way to be the quintessential Brawlie post, minus the incorrect grammar and spelling.

 

[boxelder]

Right, because he's much better than me. So much better that I shouldn't have won 1/3 of the games we played. Which I did.

Sorry I didn't think to record them to prove that I lost not too badly. When I rematch him next week, I'll let you know.

It's nothing personal. I don't trust anyone on internet forums anymore. Everyone suddenly develops the credentials and life experiences necessary to support whatever point they are trying to make. It's the magic of the net.

 

[Midguy]

I wonder if people were saying that Melee was more/less competitive than SSB64 a week after it came out. I honestly don't know cause I was still content with beating my little sister back then, lol.

 

[MajinSweet]

No, once again, Forte isn't nearly as good as Azen. He was good but not nearly to the level of Azen. However, with the coming of Brawl, what gap there was between them was destroyed as the game literally forced them down to the same level. The fact that Forte wins consistently doesn't really mean anything. Gimpyfish wins consistently in Brawl, and while he may be leagues above alot of people on these boards, he is NOT on the level of people like Azen. However, Brawl literally forces the skill of alot of these players down making it so it doesn't really matter who SHOULD be better, it just matters who picks the better character.

This is why its pointless to argue with Brawl haters. You might not even realize but, this was your flow of logic.

Azen>Forte in Melee

Therefor in Brawl, when Azen doesn't beat Forte=Brawl not competitive.

Maybe you didn't notice, but everyone IS essential at the same skill level, with minor gaps between the dedicated, smart, and people with a little more experience. You know why? Its a brand new game. Not because Brawl isn't competitive, no one is any good at it yet. And all this junk about Brawl not letting the better players win consistently is non sense. I've played countless people on wifi, there are those I can 3 stock, others 2 stock, others are close matches and other people I just can't beat yet. Maybe if you guys would stop trying to make us "admit" that Brawl isn't as competitive as Melee or what ever the point of this is, and actually gave it a chance--you might end up liking it.

 

[Scar]

G-reg, I have no idea man. Honestly I probably would. IMO it's clear and evident that Brawl makes it easier for new people to pick the game up and not have to worry about real rules.

Sweetspotting for example has clear rules in Melee. You do your upB, it doesn't end until it ends, and then if you're right there you grab the ledge. Brawl sweetspots for you. Tripping is a competitive abomination. Restricting movement (taking away dashdancing) and lag time on the ledge being longer in Brawl... it's all silly and I don't understand why it's there. I really hate how hard it is to combo in Brawl, too. Then again, without shffl'd aerials I wouldn't be comboing people in Melee either.

I think that I'd still be saying the same thing, I just wouldn't be so sure of it. I wouldn't have a clue at just how competitive Melee would become, though. I suppose that's worthwhile to point out. I really don't have any clue how competitive Brawl will be either. I just don't think it can match its predecessor.

 

[boxelder]

Boxelder may have the flu, but his tone is way too irritating for me to engage in conversation with him. Maybe if the guy learned to be civil I would try to sift through his garbage for an actual message, but right now it's awful. I just can't deal with him.

Hey, you know I have the flu even though you don't read my posts. Impressive!

 

[Scar]

Maybe if you guys would stop trying to make us "admit" that Brawl isn't as competitive as Melee or what ever the point of this is, and actually gave it a chance--you might end up liking it.

Your post is great, and yes it does point out a flaw in the logic of some. I, however, never translate Melee skill to Brawl skill. I have yet to do it in any of my posts, and will continue to never do it. I do not think it's a legitimate argument. Forte beating Azen doesn't prove anything unless Forte is proven to be bad at Brawl.

It's this quoted part that irritates the hell out of me. I have three lines in bold directly contradicting what you've just said in my OP.

We play Brawl, we like Brawl. We are giving Brawl a chance. We are simply speculating about its future here. So why are you saying this?

@boxelder, I'm magical like that. No, I read your really short ones. Actually, I read all of them until you say something completely ignorant. Then I stop. You sound intelligent when you're not being a jerk, and I wish you would just stop antagonizing. There's really nothing to prove here, you seem to be quite familiar with the internet so you should know by now that whether you're right or wrong, no one is going to care tomorrow.

The only things you take with you are the people you have convinced and communicated with. I'm looking to communicate and you're just making it really hard.

 

[Skywalker]

some people are just smarter than others and some people are just crazier than others.

oh, and the last time i had the flu i went crazy, if that helps

 

[CT Chia]

Very good post, I especially like how well it was formatted with the ideas laid out. I must give everyone a warning though when reading my reply, I have not read any post in this thread besides the first post.

I especially enjoy the competitive vs competition part, and is almost the exact idea I was trying to convey with my better vs more competition statement which was alluded to in the first paragraph. To see the similarity, have my more competitive go along with Scar's competition, and better competitive go with Scar's competitive. It's not really exactly similar, but I think you can see the correlation. By my thoughts of Brawl being more competition, it will be more popular in competitions by the amount of people playing it and enjoying a game, however there's no denying that Melee is a better competitive game right now as Scar says.

However where I somewhat disagree with the first post a bit is the definition of those who should win will win. While the percentage of chance of this happening is better in Melee, it's because Brawl is new. As good as many of us were in Melee, there is still some set of a fresh start in Brawl. Obviously those who were awesome at Melee will have a good head start and will still be great at Brawl, but the gap between a Melee veteran and a new player won't be THAT huge, especially as it was in Melee. One of the biggest upsets recently was when Forte won the recent tournament (a Chu Dat biweekly I think?) But since Brawl is new and Forte is a new player, we don't know much about him. For all we know he might have imported or Wii Key'ed and played the hell out of it for the past few weeks or a month. While it's easily assumed that Azen can be the best Brawl player right now, because of how new it is it's possible that upsets can happen but as everyone gets more practice, the ones who are naturally more in touch with the game will continue to progress at a faster rate than those who simply aren't as good. Afterall, the game has TRULY been out for only a week, and enough time hasn't been given to widen the gap between players.

As for upsets, while they don't happen as much in Melee, they do happen. GOTM losing to that random Yoshi at Spoc 4 (lol jk), Cactuar losing to Teczero at Spoc 2, and I'm sure there's plenty more. Some people just have bad days. How are we so sure that Azen just wasn't on that good of a day and that Forte was having an amazing day?

As stale as the term is, it is too early to tell. Also on the subject of advanced techs, as much as people have been looking for them, Japan has been looking for them for like a month and a half, but it's safe to say that the US smash scene is far bigger than JP's, and we have only had it for a week officially. People have been looking, but it's more based on luck finding something. Sure, the more people that look helps, but it's all luck on if it's discovered, learned, documented, and applied to the metagame. Think of Mario 64 for those of you who are familiar with the 16 star speed runs (friends of mine probably are from hearing me talk about it endlessly haha). Think of all the people playing Mario 64, and one of the glitches to get through certain doors is the crazy backwards jumping up stairs (example). No matter how hard millions of people search, something like that can only be found practically by mistake from one person lol.

Advanced techs are being discovered that really help though. Glide tossing and shield cancel grabbing are huge for the game. Glide tossing is effectively a new wavedash, and shield cancel grabbing is similar to jump cancel grabs, but can even get you through any attack, even a Meta Knights jab combo which I think is probably the fastest attack in the game (holding A with Meta Knight). It required frame perfect precision to get through it, and I can't do it consistently, but I have done it once or twice before. There are other notable techs such as shell-shifting/hydro-planning (But that one isn't really meta game changing since its for one character currently).

As for what's wrong with the Melee players as Scar was asking, while it's not all the time, it seems that the huge Melee supporters are people that are either new to Melee, or very good at the game and contempt with it. One reason why I like Brawl so much is because I have been playing Melee consistently since it came out, and 64 consistently the day that came out. I can still remember the exact day I bought Melee with the $50 gift card I got for Toys R Us before I went to my friends house where we had my game running for 5 hours with 4 controllers so I could unlock Mewtwo haha. I constantly smashed till dawn, and played with multiple people. It's still a great game and I still play it, but I like the fresh feel of Brawl so that's where I fall in those categories. Also, Brawl has a ton of my favorite characters from games, specifically Sonic and Toon Link.

I think that wraps it up for my monster post lol

 

[Pink Reaper]

This is why its pointless to argue with Brawl haters. You might not even realize but, this was your flow of logic.

Azen>Forte in Melee

Therefor in Brawl, when Azen doesn't beat Forte=Brawl not competitive.

Maybe you didn't notice, but everyone IS essential at the same skill level, with minor gaps between the dedicated, smart, and people with a little more experience. You know why? Its a brand new game. Not because Brawl isn't competitive, no one is any good at it yet. And all this junk about Brawl not letting the better players win consistently is non sense. I've played countless people on wifi, there are those I can 3 stock, others 2 stock, others are close matches and other people I just can't beat yet. Maybe if you guys would stop trying to make us "admit" that Brawl isn't as competitive as Melee or what ever the point of this is, and actually gave it a chance--you might end up liking it.

Im not saying that Azen should be better than Forte because he was better at melee, Im saying that Azen should be better than Forte because he's better at Smash Bros. Azen understands spacing and mindgames better than 99% of all other smashers and these are things that will always be the most elements of any smash game ever. However, because Forte has equally good spacing(Forte was really good at Melee, his spacing was very good) his skill basically equaled out to Azens because of all the new limitations in Brawl. In Brawl, you have very few options for mindgames, and as such, spacing is really the only thing that matters(well, that and shield camping >_>) What separated the good from the great in Melee was tech skill, mindgames and spacing. However, in Brawl, mindgames have largely been nerfed due to the removal of Wavedashing and Dash Dancing(you can still do it, but its mostly useless now) and, as stated multiple times before, because Brawl is in its infancy there isn't really much tech skill. So your left with spacing to be the key factor in victory. Once again, this means that as long as your good at this ONE thing, your going to be good at the game. I guess I was wrong for saying that Azen should be better because Forte has alot of experience with Brawl and as such is probably more familiar with it and its spacing than Azen, but it should still be noted that a player that was once amazing at multiple aspects of the game has had all but one ripped away.

 

[Scar]

I still want to read and respond to Rhubarbo's, Mama's, and behemoth's posts. They look like good stuff, I just don't have the time now.

I would like to say this. This may come as a shock to most people, but take a look at this quote...

You can see it all over this forum and I've seen it with my own personal experience. Brawl does not reward skill as much as melee. The best people I play with it don't like that aspect of it. The people who aren't as good like how they now can compete in brawl and not get ***** like they do in melee.

This statement very much supports my point for obvious reasons. However, there is an alternative theory that predicts the same results. This is the theory that Brawl is a new game and therefore no one is good at it yet. I do understand this.

There are just things about the game, most specifically that pointed out by almightypancake, a post quoted twice in my OP, that cap Brawl's potential.

 

[Scar]

Most of this was largely ignored, because it did not support Scar's arguement.

Quote in reference to why hitstun is no longer important. I addressed all of this. You steered the conversation along the lines of edgeguarding offstage with Wario. I said it's not that dangerous to be offstage anymore, I suppose with the exception of vs MK and maybe other individual characters, but by and large not as dangerous.

I don't see why you feel ignored, and if you thought there was a point I didn't address, couldn't you just have said, "Well what about this...?"

I claim that I won't leave any intelligent post behind and that's the truth.

Anyways, yes, all of this about Forte and Azen is good and true, but I'm happy to argue that there is one character in the game that's combo-oriented and has a fast enough movement/roll to get through projectiles. That one character would have to be MetaKnight. I'm also not reluctant to say that Forte is better than Azen at Brawl at this point, though I really have no idea since you'd need more tourney data to make such a claim.

"Pick MetaKnight" is not a valid anti-camping strat. There are plenty of characters who are just stopped in their tracks vs projectile camping. And I just don't buy your thing about being above as a huge disadvantage. I think it's a disadvantage but not a huge one. Certainly not as huge as being in hitstun.

 

[boxelder]

Im not saying that Azen should be better than Forte because he was better at melee, Im saying that Azen should be better than Forte because he's better at Smash Bros. Azen understands spacing and mindgames better than 99% of all other smashers and these are things that will always be the most elements of any smash game ever. However, because Forte has equally good spacing(Forte was really good at Melee, his spacing was very good) his skill basically equaled out to Azens because of all the new limitations in Brawl. In Brawl, you have very few options for mindgames, and as such, spacing is really the only thing that matters(well, that and shield camping >_>) What separated the good from the great in Melee was tech skill, mindgames and spacing. However, in Brawl, mindgames have largely been nerfed due to the removal of Wavedashing and Dash Dancing(you can still do it, but its mostly useless now) and, as stated multiple times before, because Brawl is in its infancy there isn't really much tech skill. So your left with spacing to be the key factor in victory. Once again, this means that as long as your good at this ONE thing, your going to be good at the game. I guess I was wrong for saying that Azen should be better because Forte has alot of experience with Brawl and as such is probably more familiar with it and its spacing than Azen, but it should still be noted that a player that was once amazing at multiple aspects of the game has had all but one ripped away.

Just to add something, I think that the added air control and faster roll helps make up for adv. techs in the mind game department at least. I lot more characters have advanced air movement, multiple jumps, or horizontal movement of jigglypuff proportions so they can attack and fall back out of range before landing - the poke. You can see how forte uses his jumps to fake out Azen in the Ike matches. That and mind games invove a lot of stuff other than just moving back and forth quickly, but I'm sure you know that.

 

[MajinSweet]

Im not saying that Azen should be better than Forte because he was better at melee, Im saying that Azen should be better than Forte because he's better at Smash Bros.

Or maybe, in the short amount of time that Brawl has been out, Forte is better than Azen at BRAWL. Why is that so impossible? Azen's a great player, not taking that away from him--but Brawl is fresh and everyone at this point has a decent chance at winning as long as they understand character match ups and have simply played the game.

Azen understands spacing and mindgames better than 99% of all other smashers and these are things that will always be the most elements of any smash game ever. However, because Forte has equally good spacing(Forte was really good at Melee, his spacing was very good) his skill basically equaled out to Azens because of all the new limitations in Brawl. In Brawl, you have very few options for mindgames,

This is so very, very, very, very wrong. Brawl promotes so much mindgames its not even funny. Every time you hit someone above you, mind games determine who takes advantage of the situation. If I go to follow up, will he just air dodge? So should I jump with nothing in hopes of baiting an air dodge and then punish? But what if he just attacks me while I do nothing? Or maybe I should try to attack him in his landing lag? This entire situation I just typed up is also devoid of character match ups, a crucial part of Brawl.

and as such, spacing is really the only thing that matters(well, that and shield camping >_>)

Shield camping is very situational at best. Shields break much faster now, and certain characters destroy that strategy. Metaknight can poke your shield all day, and unless your samus, you probably won't be able to grab.

What separated the good from the great in Melee was tech skill, mindgames and spacing.

Same holds true for Brawl.

However, in Brawl, mindgames have largely been nerfed due to the removal of Wavedashing and Dash Dancing(you can still do it, but its mostly useless now)

You don't need advanced techniques to play smart, or trick someone. Brawl is overflowing with potential mind games.

and, as stated multiple times before, because Brawl is in its infancy there isn't really much tech skill. So your left with spacing to be the key factor in victory. Once again, this means that as long as your good at this ONE thing, your going to be good at the game.

mind games, character match ups and even tech skill depending on characters. Good Snake players have already discovered a ton of tricky stuff.

I guess I was wrong for saying that Azen should be better because Forte has alot of experience with Brawl and as such is probably more familiar with it and its spacing than Azen, but it should still be noted that a player that was once amazing at multiple aspects of the game has had all but one ripped away.

Except Melee skills don't transfer to Brawl, in fact many pro Melee players were doing some dumb things in videos I watched because of Melee habits. Certain things players did in Melee just don't work in Brawl and vice versa. Good spacing might not even carry over because the game physics are so different and you need to learn all the new attack properties.

 

[Scar]

Pink Reaper makes a good point though. I mean, it can be argued that Brawl limits only "Melee" mindgames. But I don't really see any new ones yet, so who's to say that there ever will be? We have to work with only what we have now.

Also, jiggs-ish poking is camping. I have never played a jiggs that hasn't camped me to death. It's definitely what a lot of players do at this point, too. I don't quite understand how faster rolls make up for advanced techs. I'd like to see that explained further.

 

[boxelder]

Quote in reference to why hitstun is no longer important. I addressed all of this. You steered the conversation along the lines of edgeguarding offstage with Wario. I said it's not that dangerous to be offstage anymore, I suppose with the exception of vs MK and maybe other individual characters, but by and large not as dangerous.

I don't see why you feel ignored, and if you thought there was a point I didn't address, couldn't you just have said, "Well what about this...?"

I claim that I won't leave any intelligent post behind and that's the truth.

Anyways, yes, all of this about Forte and Azen is good and true, but I'm happy to argue that there is one character in the game that's combo-oriented and has a fast enough movement/roll to get through projectiles. That one character would have to be MetaKnight. I'm also not reluctant to say that Forte is better than Azen at Brawl at this point, though I really have no idea since you'd need more tourney data to make such a claim.

"Pick MetaKnight" is not a valid anti-camping strat. There are plenty of characters who are just stopped in their tracks vs projectile camping. And I just don't buy your thing about being above as a huge disadvantage. I think it's a disadvantage but not a huge one. Certainly not as huge as being in hitstun.

Hey look, I'm sorry if I offended you. It's not all the flu's fault, I can be pretty glib and sarcastic(i.e. an ***) in writing sometimes, and different people take it different ways. So I appologize if I caused you stress.

And to respond, I think the combo potential of a lot of characters has been opening up lately. Toon Link, for example seems to be king of the combo, he's got speed and he's got projectiles to camp back if he has to. Same goes for diddy, and he's got the best dash attack in the game to boot, and squirtle, and Luigi, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus etc.

Also I've found air dodging really useful against spammers. It's not perfect because you can set yourself up for punishment if you don't know the proper spacing and timing , but it allows you to advance while blocking. A lot of the damaging projectiles are actually pretty easy to catch, and ones that aren't do minimal damage. Then there's reflectors, absorbers for healing, all sorts of options for dealing with it. That and I just haven't seen it regularly work in high level play yet, let alone dominate, personally. Is this just on final destination that this problem pops up?

 

[Pink Reaper]

You don't need advanced techniques for mindgames, but you DO need options, and the removal of WD and DD have decreased your amount of options.

Also, while shields may break alot easier now, a player at least proficient at the new easy power shielding can still easily shield camp. And Meta-Knight is one of the few exceptions to the rule as he simply has a large amount of range that other characters don't.

 

[Scar]

This is so very, very, very, very wrong. Brawl promotes so much mindgames its not even funny. Every time you hit someone above you, mind games determine who takes advantage of the situation. If I go to follow up, will he just air dodge? So should I jump with nothing in hopes of baiting an air dodge and then punish? But what if he just attacks me while I do nothing? Or maybe I should try to attack him in his landing lag? This entire situation I just typed up is also devoid of character match ups, a crucial part of Brawl.

My argument is that when every situation comes down to this, a lot of it is going to boil down to random guessing. If someone randomizes what they do in situations, the optimal strategy is to guess randomly. That's sad and not fun to me.

Shield camping is very situational at best. Shields break much faster now, and certain characters destroy that strategy. Metaknight can poke your shield all day, and unless your samus, you probably won't be able to grab.

What other characters can pressure shields like that, though? MK has lots of broken strats. You really can't point out one character and say that it's a solution to a problem. Sure, Fox can sit in shine all day and stop projectile campers... that doesn't help us on a large scale. By and large, shield camping and not approaching in general is the best strategy in Brawl.

Same holds true for Brawl.

Quote in reference to what is required to be good at Melee, tech skill included. I disagree. I believe that there is next to 0 technical skill required to play SSBB. I believe that it cannot be argued and holds true as fact that there is unspeakably more technical skill in Melee than there is in Brawl.

Except Melee skills don't transfer to Brawl, in fact many pro Melee players were doing some dumb things in videos I watched because of Melee habits. Certain things players did in Melee just don't work in Brawl and vice versa.

I agree, but certain Melee players that are good at Smash things are just really good at Brawl. Cactuar is one of them, M2K is another. Yes, bad players will try to do Melee things, robotic players will try to do Melee things. Good players will try it once, realize the game is completely different, and stop.

 

[boxelder]

Pink Reaper makes a good point though. I mean, it can be argued that Brawl limits only "Melee" mindgames. But I don't really see any new ones yet, so who's to say that there ever will be? We have to work with only what we have now.

Also, jiggs-ish poking is camping. I have never played a jiggs that hasn't camped me to death. It's definitely what a lot of players do at this point, too. I don't quite understand how faster rolls make up for advanced techs. I'd like to see that explained further.

Isn't there an inherent contradiction in saying on one hand that projectiles are overpowered, and on the other that mind games are limited? Am I wrong in thinking that projectiles have always been a major player in mind games and in controlling movement?

The point really is the advanced air movement makes a player less predictable, it can force attacks that can be punished and in this way is a mindgame. Really, since when is kicking someone camping anyway? It's also easier to play around the edge which is where a lot of mindgames seem to happen.

I'm just trying to point out the positives.

 

[MajinSweet]

You don't need advanced techniques for mindgames, but you DO need options, and the removal of WD and DD have decreased your amount of options.

New options replaced them, so I don't really see a problem.

Also, while shields may break alot easier now, a player at least proficient at the new easy power shielding can still easily shield camp. And Meta-Knight is one of the few exceptions to the rule as he simply has a large amount of range that other characters don't.

Meta Knight, Marth, Ike, Link, Toon Link, Dedede, hell even Bowser and Ganon's side B will **** shield campers or anyone with a decent projectile. Wait, is that like over half the cast? I think it is. And the new power shielding isn't exactly easy, and if you were going to base your strategy on it, your being very risky. Not to mention, it still won't save you from grabs.

 

[superninja]

Somebody make this guy a mod. NOW.

 

[Scar]

Hey look, I'm sorry if I offended you. It's not all the flu's fault, I can be pretty glib and sarcastic(i.e. an ***) in writing sometimes, and different people take it different ways. So I appologize if I caused you stress.

I feel much better now, thanks.

And to respond, I think the combo potential of a lot of characters has been opening up lately. Toon Link, for example seems to be king of the combo, he's got speed and he's got projectiles to camp back if he has to. Same goes for diddy, and he's got the best dash attack in the game to boot, and squirtle, and Luigi, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus etc.

I haven't seen impressive combos from uigi, Sonic, and Zamus yet, though I believe Zamus can do it pretty well, just by looking at her. Diddy just connects hits from dash attack though, I mean that's great and all but it's one move from one character.

Toon Link can combo period. His bair is one of the few moves that is quick enough and that stuns enough to lead into another move. These are all individual sort of cases though, it just boils down to Brawl being a different game and players needing to learn how to adapt. Every character cannot have good, reliable combos. They all did in Melee, save powerhouses like Ganon ( he's actually the only one I can think of that doesn't combo that hard).

I think that if there were greater advantages for players after landing hits, the game would be better. I also wish that the combos that do exist took more skill.

TL's grab is so easy to catch someone with, then dthrow bair bair bair bair. *sigh*...

New options replaced them, so I don't really see a problem.

idk, I wish this were true, but I really haven't seen any.

Isn't there an inherent contradiction in saying on one hand that projectiles are overpowered, and on the other that mind games are limited? Am I wrong in thinking that projectiles have always been a major player in mind games and in controlling movement?

The point really is the advanced air movement makes a player less predictable, it can force attacks that can be punished and in this way is a mindgame. Really, since when is kicking someone camping anyway? It's also easier to play around the edge which is where a lot of mindgames seem to happen.

No, projectile spamming in most games is usually the smartest way to control space and force players to do what you want them to do. Why this is not true in Brawl, however, is that this mindset is specific to players actually avoiding the projectiles. Our problem here is that we're just sitting around getting hit by stuff until we can actually get close enough to hit the spammer with melee attacks.

Also, it's hard to understand why WoP is camping unless it's done to you for 8 minutes. You're never really attacked, the space in front of you is just being controlled. In essence, it's taking away your approach... or at least making it much more dangerous.

 

[CT Chia]

My argument is that when every situation comes down to this, a lot of it is going to boil down to random guessing. If someone randomizes what they do in situations, the optimal strategy is to guess randomly. That's sad and not fun to me.

Isn't that essentially what tech chasing is in Melee? Something you're big on with Falcon.

 

[ErciChewman]

Holy crap Scar! You posted this beyotch 36 hours ago and look what happened! lol

moved this post to next page >_>

 

[Pink Reaper]

New options replaced them, so I don't really see a problem.

No, new options have NOT replaced them as there is no universally equal option for all characters that works as well as either of those two techs.

Meta Knight, Marth, Ike, Link, Toon Link, Dedede, hell even Bowser and Ganon's side B will **** shield campers or anyone with a decent projectile. Wait, is that like over half the cast? I think it is. And the new power shielding isn't exactly easy, and if you were going to base your strategy on it, your being very risky. Not to mention, it still won't save you from grabs.

While this does hold slightly true, its really not true. Meta Knight and Marth have enough range to easily punish shield camping, but Ike is so slow that he really doesn't. Link and Toon Link would more likely be the campers rather than the approachers as their projectiles simply allow them to force approaches, as does DDD(and Pit. Seriously, **** pit) Also, Power shielding is NOT hard to do if you just pay attention. I've managed to power shield at least 50% of my attempts and most of the ones that fail just end up shielding whatever incoming attack hits me anyways and i can still shield grab because of it. Also, I've noticed that Standing grab has priority over running grab so I can actually grab AFTER a running grab and still get the grab(granted, this was in online matches, I might just have had some lag)

 

[Scar]

Isn't that essentially what tech chasing is in Melee? Something you're big on with Falcon.

YES! Anecdotal evidence vs Tec0, a player who used to be 10x better than I was who now is a peer in Melee.

3 months ago when I played him in tournament, I counterpicked him on Yoshi's story. This is because I knew that if I randomly guessed a tech well, I could dair>fsmash kill him at very low %.

Last time I played him, he counterpicked me there since he can low % shine gimp me. I am now much more comfortable with larger stages vs. his Fox because I can reliably kill him with my own skill rather than guessing right and punishing him for it that hard.

Also, Melee has these guessing situations every once in a while. In Brawl, they happen CONSTANTLY. I think this is a bad thing, other players enjoy it very much. It is largely a matter of opinion.

Edit: @Chewman, and everyone else for that matter. I think that a lot of the Melee tourney population consisted of new players who wanted to get better at competitive Melee. I don't think we'll see those people at Brawl tournaments because of wifi. I think wifi will take away from tourney attendance. I wonder if the crowd will be booming or not... I'm terribly interested either way.

Edit2: Bedtime, I'll resume tomorrow. Thanks again to everyone positively contributing to the thread. Believe it or not, I'm really enjoying discussing this. boxelder is getting me to think that there might be a way around projectile camping yet.

 

[Tabris-]

I just thought I'd add one little thing as a casual on something in Brawl that is a little bit annoying, even though I've been enjoying Brawl a lot since Saturday.

Mid-air pick ups on items. I thought it'd only limit batdropping in the HRC, but I think it's rather frustrating when you want to do an air attack on somebody, only to have it cancelled out by picking up an item that's nearby. I preferred it when the only way to do it was by pressing Z in the air or close to the ground.

I'll adapt to it soon enough, but for the time being, whilst I'm used to Melee and still adjusting to Brawl, it's a tad inconvenient. That and I'm still bashing away at the L shoulder button just before I land to L-cancel out of instinct. No biggy.