I'm going to try to respond to the best of my ability to all posts that seem to be intelligently written and haven't already been addressed. I've been getting a good bit of help (which I greatly apprecite) and was a bit upset by page 9 (holy fawken **** so many fawken *s), but the debate returned to civility so it's all good.
That I respect. Anyone can throw out their opinion, but defending it takes time and patience. Good on you.
Melee is too in depth to say how good a person is based on a few matches. I'm sure you know all the factors. Silent Wolf is probably the BEST IN THE WORLD technically, and he does well at tournaments but he's not one of the very top pros. Magus, locally, is one of the smartest, most knowledgeable, experienced smashers, but I'm sure you've never heard of him.
In the end, though, we do know who is better than who. The Melee community is very tight, we all know eachother, we all know our records in tourney, we are a community. So yes, we know who is better than who, and even when people are REALLY CLOSE in overall skill, there is usually a very consistent winner.
This is because Melee allows us to see these small differences in skill. It translates them into results, honest to God it does.
The "pro Melee debaters" are generally 4 or 5 respected and knowledgeable members of the community.
I don't doubt that the people you mentioned are highly, highly skilled Melee players. Nor do I doubt the community's ability to guage their skill - based on their preformance in Melee matches over long period of times (not just a couple matches). The key word being "Melee" matches.
This being a new game, you can't say definitively that the best Melee players will be as skilled when it comes to a new game like Brawl. It seems to me that a person's level of skill at Brawl should similarly be determined by how well they preform in Brawl matches over time. And if two people are competing on an equal level, it matters not their Melee experience. They are equally skilled at Brawl. That's just how I see it.
First of all, this simply doesn't happen. This is the beauty of Melee IMO, you almost never win luckily. It's always because your level of skill is higher than the other person! I have had to argue this with non-gamers, too. They seem to think, from their limited video game experience, that anyone can win at any game, you're just pushing your fingers. It's not like a sport.
I argue that Melee is different from other video games. You need to condition your body (muscle memory) before you can even move like the others. You need this movement to increase your options and your overall speed. Then when you're playing the same game, you need experience. You cannot win without both.
My arguments for why Brawl is not as competitive lie here. I don't think Brawl has that.
I was exagerating, but I think the point is valid. If a non wavedasher could beat a Melee pro in Brawl, its because they played the better game. Nothing random or lucky about it.
Perhaps a finely honed skillset like quick reflexes will turn out to be less essential in Brawl. That doesn't make the game less competitive. Rather it simply rewards other equally valid skills like strategic thinking and ingenuity. Calculating what moves to use against an oppoent at a given time.
Maybe that kind of skill requires fewer hours than perfecting one's muscle memory. But requiring a different skill set does not make a game less competitive.
I mean that's just the difference between smart people and not so smart people. Ryoko is one of the most technical Melee players there is, he never messes up. His deal is mostly frame perfection and being one pixel away from getting hit.
He's just the kind of player who would find something like that. The people who imported Brawl aren't that way, in the Melee community at least. So I mean this point is going to show that people who are good at Smash are good at Smash. Not a point I'm trying to make, but it's there.
My point was more to show that advanced techniques are not always readily apparent - even to those whove played Melee for ages. Hense, advanced techniques could be discovered later on that we do not now know about.
Take, for instance, the new technique of "wave-hopping":
http://youtube.com/watch?v=53Wix_KsK5g
This is a fine assumption to make, but it is false. Everyone has been playing every game mode, and there are lots of FFAs and teams going on due to limited supply of Brawl setups and ridiculously large demand for Brawl. I prefer items off, but people nearby are playing with items on.
Point taken. But I'm concerned that some of the ultra hardcore Melee pros are still too fixated with Melee conventions to explore the depth in alternate modes of play. Maybe I'm wrong, I think further experimentaion in modes like teams could lead to discoveries of currently unknown depth. Or not. Point being: we don't know after only a week.
I thought you said you weren't going to preach?
Well I'll let that one slide. Competitive players are competitive players, established as such by the community. If you're going to argue that the whole community is competitive by their own decree then go for it.
Anyways, I mean my buddy Chocobo came up with a C4 trick with Snake in teams. He puts it on his teammate, the teammate gives it to an enemy and then they blow him up. Again, you're working with false assumptions. Good points if your assumptions were true, but they simply aren't.
You're right. I guess that was pretty hostile. Sorry. Sometimes I just get worked up about dumb things.
It just rubs me the wrong way when people divide the community by saying "these people are competitive" and "these ones are not competitive." Which I don't think was your point at all. My bad.
For the first part, I don't think anyone is ever going to play Brawl for money if there is a chance that a heart drops in front of their enemy who has 100%. Items are too random and unfair. And yes, we realize how bizarre Snake is. Lots of people are playing with him, trying to figure stuff out, myself included.
Notice how I said "certain" items?
Something like a heart container requires zero skill to use. It's pure luck if it lands closer to you. Something like the Smashball, on the other hand, requires skill to obtain as players smack it around the stage.
Personally, I'm wary of any items in 1 vs 1s as they tend to distract from the gameplay rather than enhance it. But items that require skill (ie: smashballs and team healers) could potentially have place in team tourneys. Further testing is required, obviously.
Anyway, I've seem a couple videos of advanced Snake players and the techniques that are surfacing seem as complex as anything in Melee. Is it really fair to say Brawl lacks depth before we see what this characters is really capable of?
The depth I speak of MOSTLY has to do with lack of l-cancelling and hitstun on aerials. The former gets rid of too many safe approaches. Any good player realizes that you cannot approach in Brawl without being punished unless you're playing someone who isn't going to use the best strategy available.
No hitstun gimps a critical aspect of fighting games, the punishment part. This is discussed on page 6, I think, but it's important.
So making it harder to approach makes the game less competitive? I have to disagree. It could very well mean longer, more drawn out matches that reward defensive strategies over offensive, but it still requires skill. Less so in the reflexes department maybe, but more so in the strategic thinking department.
And, of couse, not everyone agrees with your analysis:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=153818
Peace.
-WG
