Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Samochan]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4325206&postcount=1108

Laalaalaalaa... About teh competition. I think it's a good post, even while it's mine. *shameless post advertising*

 

[FootFace]

Its honestly not if Brawl is competitive, its which is more competitive, Brawl or Melee?

com·pet·i·tive
–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, involving, or decided by competition: competitive sports; a competitive examination.

Obviously, any Multiplayer Game is Competitive by definition, including Brawl

 

[Reaver197]

I personally think that Brawl is lacking a certain aspect that really ought to be present in a fighting-based "competitive" (definition-slinging war aside) game.

I've heard a lot of people stating the lack of technical skill it requires to play, the addition of randomness and chance into the equation via tripping, or the lack of comboability. Though, none of those help Brawl with its competitive consideration, I do not think that those in of themselves dismiss Brawl as a competitive game.

Rather, I think what really keeps Brawl from being considered a competitive game on the level of Melee is how the game handles various fighting styles. Truly competitive fighting games allow for all types of fightings styles to be viable and effective, from the most aggressive, combo-happy styles, to the most defensive, turtleish styles, and to anything in between. A player can be rewarded for whatever style he chooses to play for that match/game/particular instance.

I don't think Brawl can cater to that, with specific reference to playing aggressively. Brawl does not reward aggressive play, and heavily favors and caters to more defensive play types due to its system of diminishing returns, tiny hitstun, and how quickly, with little regard to being punished, you can use your shield/roll/dodge/airdodge.

I think that was what the issue with the Dead or Alive series (as I've been told), in terms of its lack of a competitive community. The counter-attack option was absurdly overpowered, obviating aggressive play styles, and making a defensive style by far the best approach to take.

Unless there is some hither-to undiscovered technique that greatly increases the reward for playing aggressively, and makes it an equally viable approach to playing Brawl as is a defensive, more cautious one, I personally believe Brawl cannot really be held up as a competitive game in the league of Melee or that of Street Fighter.

I would like to point out that by no means does that mean I think Brawl sucks or is not fun. This is strictly an appraisal of it's competitive viability.

Something I wrote in another thread, that I think will pertain to this one, but am way too lazy to retype.

 

[greenblob]

Its honestly not if Brawl is competitive, its which is more competitive, Brawl or Melee?

com·pet·i·tive
–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, involving, or decided by competition: competitive sports; a competitive examination.

Obviously, any Multiplayer Game is Competitive by definition, including Brawl

Is Mario Party competitive?

 

[KevinM]

Just posting to say i've enjoyed reading Brookman's, M2k's and Scar's posts.

<3

 

[WoapGang]

Is Mario Party competitive?

by definition, yes it is

 

[NJzFinest]

nj's finest got shut down with a link lmfaooo that was priceless lmaoooo

lol carl, you silly goose!

I was told otherwise by people who personally know the Kishes.

<3 the internet for caring about everything ^_^

 

[Samochan]

by definition, yes it is

But on practice? I don't think so.

 

[Pikaville]

Well brawl can and will become competitive(less so than melee)but i found(i think) 2 things that could become invaluable to the metagame.Tether cancling and the broken airdodge cancle they both allow you to go straight into any move after landing.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164200

 

[Jam Stunna]

Just posting to say i've enjoyed reading Brookman's, M2k's and Scar's posts.

<3

Just posting to say that I enjoy KevinM.

 

[Brookman]

There was a Brawl tournament in CT yesterday; guess who the top places belonged to... that's right, basically the same people that always got the top places in melee tournaments!!

 

[Cort]

Except in Melee tournaments I would never have beaten Mew2King

 

[Cort]

Unless we Falcon dittod

 

[Brookman]

Yes, Brawl doesn't allow m2k the same level of control he achieved in melee. I think it's been established that Brawl is fairly different from Melee. I don't really understand what you're trying to say, other than brawl =/= melee.

 

[Cort]

I wasn't really trying to say anything specifically, the best Melee players do well in Brawl because they have a slight 'intelligent' lead on everyone else

Brawl still allows newer faces to come out and do well if they understand the game better than old Melee players, I'm not really sure what you were trying to say in your post or why you responded to mine

 

[AfricanZulu]

Lol i cant get over cort's 'No Country for Old Men' tag... Its awesome to say the least...
(o yea i keep getting goosebumpsm everytime, i watch that friendly between you and PC, where you 4 stock him in like 50 seconds )

Anyhow back to the topic\

Since i moved back to south africa, where there has been an insane lack in competitive play for me. I even opened a post under the international comunity asking if there are any African players and no-one responded in 6 months, which by default makes me the best african smasher, because there are none.

That was for Melee...

Since i started playing brawl it changed quite a bit, my friends have had time to learn the game here, and whereas in Melee i would always destroy them, in brawl its a whole new ball game.

Which leads me to the point of this debate.... A brawl vs. Melee debate is inevitable but stupid nonetheless. Its like comparing Tennis to Badminton. Two completely different games. But just accept them for what they are. How often do you see Tennis vs Badminton debates\? almost never. So stop hating on either game, pick one and enjoy it!

 

[Plairnkk]

Lol i cant get over cort's 'No Country for Old Men' tag... Its awesome to say the least...
(o yea i keep getting goosebumpsm everytime, i watch that friendly between you and PC, where you 4 stock him in like 50 seconds )

Anyhow back to the topic\

Since i moved back to south africa, where there has been an insane lack in competitive play for me. I even opened a post under the international comunity asking if there are any African players and no-one responded in 6 months, which by default makes me the best african smasher, because there are none.

That was for Melee...

Since i started playing brawl it changed quite a bit, my friends have had time to learn the game here, and whereas in Melee i would always destroy them, in brawl its a whole new ball game.

Which leads me to the point of this debate.... A brawl vs. Melee debate is inevitable but stupid nonetheless. Its like comparing Tennis to Badminton. Two completely different games. But just accept them for what they are. How often do you see Tennis vs Badminton debates\? almost never. So stop hating on either game, pick one and enjoy it!

ur right. why DONT we argue about that?

tennis is clearly better and more competitive, while badminton is for total vag's.

**** badminton

 

[Pink Reaper]

it took me five minutes to get good at badminton but I still can't play competitive Tennis. As such, Tennis > Badminton in terms of competitiveness

 

[Plairnkk]

tennis=melee

badminton=brawl

end of story

 

[Pink Reaper]

badminton=/=Brawl cus I actually have fun playing badminton

 

[arrowhead]

tennis=melee
english class=brawl

 

[Fletch]

tennis=melee
english class=brawl

This is more accurate

 

[Lixivium]

tennis=melee

badminton=brawl

end of story

Badminton is way faster than Tennis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ2k-tsX5KE

 

[Beat]

[Scar on the Tennis vs Badminton debate: What do analogies really mean? - Page 189 - Smash World Forums]

 

[PolMex23]

I agree that melee is a considerably better competitive game. But...

I believe the beauty of Brawl is, that for those who dreamed of being one of the top smash players, the possibility is there. Now, theres a new game, and with a new game comes new talent. New faces, names, techniques, strategies, and memorable moments.

Its seems like a republican an democratic battle between change and the continuation of the old. But, I lean towards a democratic view, an agree with change. For 7 beautiful years we had Melee.

It may be hard for us to except this new game. It may never replace what Melee was. But, "admit that the water around you have grown... for the times they are a changin..."

Melee tournaments wont continue for the next 5-8 years, so, better grab your gamecube controller an turn on your...Wii, which contains brawl xD.

 

[JustNoOne]

Mehhh, I never played Melee, but it's true that Brawl is less competitive than Melee. They have tone down the speed of the game, it's noticable when I watch both Melee and Brawl matches, and Melee matches are much more faster usually than Brawl, allowing for quick fingers and thinking, and thus making it more competitive. But ehhh... Brawl has much more charaters than Melee, but that's not really much to counter the fact that Brawl is more competitive than Melee, I mean... What's the point of making a sequal to a game if there's nothing new? It's like eatting the same type of food over and over again.

But I guess they toned down the competitiveness because Nintendo's aim is for all ages and people (w/e they planned in the first place idk), so likely they are attracting more people to thw Wii since it's "for all ages" so making things easier for the newbies. I mean, who would want a play a game where everyone kicks your *** the first time? (Me! =P) It's like playing playing hockey with NHL player. And they toned down the competitiveness in many game, Brawl, Mario Kart Wii (auto difrt w/e they called it), and Mario Part 8(mainly depends on luck now to win, as said by the reviews of GameTrailers) .

All in all, Brawl is less competitive then Melee, but I guess it good for the newcomers.. like me! =D

 

[arrowhead]

All in all, Brawl is less competitive then Melee, but I guess it good for the newcomers.. like me! =D

except that newbies shouldn't be playing more advanced players anyways. or if they did, the advanced player could always play easy. but nothing we do can make the matches between two competitive players any more competitive.

toning the game down was a stupid move. if you can't beat someone, get better.

 

[Beat]

I agree that melee is a considerably better competitive game. But...

I believe the beauty of Brawl is, that for those who dreamed of being one of the top smash players, the possibility is there. Now, theres a new game, and with a new game comes new talent. New faces, names, techniques, strategies, and memorable moments.

Its seems like a republican an democratic battle between change and the continuation of the old. But, I lean towards a democratic view, an agree with change. For 7 beautiful years we had Melee.

It may be hard for us to except this new game. It may never replace what Melee was. But, "admit that the water around you have grown... for the times they are a changin..."

Melee tournaments wont continue for the next 5-8 years, so, better grab your gamecube controller an turn on your...Wii, which contains brawl xD.

I'll start by quoting Ike, to show that I enjoy Brawl, before I **** your argument.

"Prepare yourself".

Okay:
-New scrubby faces, making those who only attend local events get cocky when they win. Also, the possibility to become great exists, not the best, because there isn't enough to the metagame to promote a "best". There's only camping and Metaknight.
-I'm Democratic and favor a lot of their political views. Sometimes, however, Republicans are right. But I don't care about Mr. Game and Watch's views on healthcare. Stop using metaphors that don't apply, people.
-Times are only partially changing, as the Melee community is strong and the best players right on down to Melee scrubs like me cry out for a better game than the "fighting" game that Sakurai birthed. Brawl is fun, but not great. Of course that's not a fact, just an opinion.
I went to a Melee tournament last weekend. My friends are returning from one now. You lose. Good day, sir.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I'll start by quoting Ike, to show that I enjoy Brawl, before I **** your argument.

"Prepare yourself".

Okay:
-New scrubby faces, making those who only attend local events get cocky when they win. Also, the possibility to become great exists, not the best, because there isn't enough to the metagame to promote a "best". There's only camping and Metaknight.
-I'm Democratic and favor a lot of their political views. Sometimes, however, Republicans are right. But I don't care about Mr. Game and Watch's views on healthcare. Stop using metaphors that don't apply, people.
-Times are only partially changing, as the Melee community is strong and the best players right on down to Melee scrubs like me cry out for a better game than the "fighting" game that Sakurai birthed. Brawl is fun, but not great. Of course that's not a fact, just an opinion.
I went to a Melee tournament last weekend. My friends are returning from one now. You lose. Good day, sir.

But Mr. Game and Watch supports UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE through only small-moderate tax increase and turtles. HOW CAN YOU NOT WANT THAT?

 

[Doomer]

different games, different play styles.

also melee hasn't always been as "competitive" as it is today.


just things to keep in mind.

 

[arrowhead]

different games, different play styles.

also melee hasn't always been as "competitive" as it is today.


just things to keep in mind.

this has been said a million times already and holds no value in a debate

 

[Doomer]

this has been said a million times already and holds no value in a debate

you say it holds no value, but give no reasons as to why.

 

[LOL_Master]

Badminton(Melee) > Backyard Badminton(Brawl)

 

[Rhubarbo]

you say it holds no value, but give no reasons as to why.

Because Brawl is Melee with less features. God **** it, seriously. Go read some of the other posts in this thread and educate yourself on why Brawl blows. I've said this countless times, most (not all) Brawl defenders are new to the community.

 

[Corigames]

you say it holds no value, but give no reasons as to why.

You say they are different games with different play styles but don't give reasons why.

See, I can be dodgey too!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You say they are different games with different play styles but don't give reasons why.

See, I can be dodgey too!

*spotdodges.*

C WHAT I DID THAR?

Smooth Criminal

 

[billythegoat]

==EDIT==
It has been brought to my attention that about half of the people on the pro-Brawl side of the community believe that at this point, Melee is a more competitive game. I did not know this, so perhaps this thread is for the other half of the pro-Brawl community.
=======
That is exactly as far as I got before I realized he's right. LOL. Scar ftw.

 

[LOL_Master]

stand stwong

 

[Scar]

I believe the beauty of Brawl is, that for those who dreamed of being one of the top smash players, the possibility is there.

Only a scrub will say that there's no chance to become a top Melee player at this point. It's now easier than ever. Pros are dying to get new people into the game, and lots of techniques and strats have already been created. New players need only to practice tech skill and play with experienced Melee players. Do what the pros do already, and add little bits of yourself to your style.

You can't just pick up Melee like you can with Brawl, you have to work a little bit. But after the hard work, there's a much deeper competitive gaming experience waiting for you.

 

[thumbswayup]

So Scar, what are your feelings on the Lizard crew these days LOL