Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[Parallax Dragon]

If you like melee stick with melee. Don't try to change a game (Brawl) into something it ain't. Melee achieved something that the competitive community liked. That's fine but Brawl achieved something that the competitive community didn't like which in no means Brawl is an inferior game.

In my opinion, don't try to make a game (Brawl != competitive play) what it ain't intended to be, you will only gimp yourself from what can be the better experience (Melee for competitive).

 

[Avalon262]

just when I thought this thread had died when it was near the bottom earlier in the day, it gets revived again......

Just end the madness.

 

[Gill]

just when I thought this thread had died when it was near the bottom earlier in the day, it gets revived again......

Just end the madness.

Madness?

THIS.

IS.

SMASHBOARDS.

 

[Xoid]

I can see this thread went a long LONG way lol!

I don't really want to add or say much, but I think my experiences with the Smash series belongs in this thread...

I never really goto into the Smash brother series till Melee came out, and for a long while, it was really fun. Played with my friends, we'd beat each other and it was pretty fun. But at one point it got a little boring, and kinda just lost interest in it altogether... a few years later, I stumbled upon random SSBM tournys, and I was just amazed at what SSBM became. It was almost like a different game altogether, and it got me very VERY interested in Melee again, wondering "how he did that?!" or "WTF was that?!?!". It was pretty much the same reaction I had when I watch like.. Crazy streetfighter combo videos, but I NEVER expected SSBM to have that kind of depth to it.

Everything about this topic has already been said at this point, and there's no point in trying to bring up things that have been already brought up. But in MY OPINION, I would have to agree with what most of the smashers here say.... I really don't agree with what Sakurai tried to do with brawl, however, that was the same with Melee at one point too, right?

Only time will tell, that's what i would agree with.

 

[Catmunnies]

I wonder why Sakurai made the game the way he did, just so it would fun for everyone.

The way I see it, if you keep loosing, then try to get better. If you're a wuss and feel you can't get any better, then stop fighting the people you keep loosing to. If you don't want to keep loosing online, then there should be a n00b buttan somewhere in the main menu to that while turned on would only allow other n00bs to fight you. Problem solved. Everybody's happy.

Me, I've only played a good 4 hours of brawl, so I don't really know if brawl is better than melee or not, but I've been playing melee for six years; if I get bored with brawl, I'm not going back to melee.

That game is just too old.

 

[Shifty McSly]

If you like melee stick with melee. Don't try to change a game (Brawl) into something it ain't. Melee achieved something that the competitive community liked. That's fine but Brawl achieved something that the competitive community didn't like which in no means Brawl is an inferior game.

In my opinion, don't try to make a game (Brawl != competitive play) what it ain't intended to be, you will only gimp yourself from what can be the better experience (Melee for competitive).

Best post of the thread. Screw brawl.

 

[SiegKnight]

since melee stages are in brawl, wouldn't it be awesome if we could somehow hack the game and give all the characters melee physics but still keep all the brawl character specific a/b crap, and thus have new characters too? I recall them saying that Brawl started off with game arts being given the melee code to run amok with freely. And boy did they ruin it

 

[rubiksfriend]

It's all about the $$$. If players get beaten by others in a complex game of skill and technical proficiency, then they will be less likely to encourage others to buy the game. Plus, he doesn't get excited at sporting events because one team, regardless of preparation and effort, will always lose. That may be sad, but tough. Get over it, Sakurai!

 

[Wiseguy]

I wonder why Sakurai made the game the way he did, just so it would fun for everyone.

Um.... yes?

I find it kind of hilarious that so many comments on this thread believe a game which requires spending large ammounts of practicein order to win is superior. Games serve no other purpose that the enjoyment they give the player. Period.

It all comes down to preferance. Some prefer more complex gameplay that takes time to master, and serves as a more accurate measurement of skill. But the truth of the matter is that such players are neither the majority nor the superior branch of the Smash community. Most just want to jump in and play Smash without the time commitment of mastering advanced techniques.

Some do not like the changes made to Brawl. Fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But don't fool yourselves into thinking Sakurai made any error in judgment in making the game he did. Thanks to his vision, more people will recieve more enjoyment from the game than if he disproportionately catered to the minority obsessed with skill measurement.

Play Brawl. Play Melee. Or do neither. It's all up to you. But if you think your method of enjoying videogames is superior or more worthwhile than the next guy's you are mistaken.

 

[Yuna]

I totally agree with this.

I mean honestly, Melee is a great game, and I see nothing wrong with keeping up with it. But to ignore Brawl completely because Sakurai screwed us over is stupid. Brawl has a lot of BS in it, and a lot of good stuff was removed. But we should try to make it as competitive as possible, especially since Sakurai tried so hard to stop us from doing so. Just to spite him, I want to make Brawl as freakin' competitive as it can get. I want to push it to the point where the noobs actually have to practice, and those that put in time and effort aren't epically failing thanks to tripping when the aforementioned noobs get a Final Smash. Screw Final Smashes, screw tripping, screw everything Sakurai put in to stop us from doing what we want with the game, and let's make the game competitive and throw it in his face repeatedly.

/rant

The problem is that high level Brawl will be interminably boring both to watch and more importantly to play. Brawl played "the best way" will be campfest. Even if we ban all camp-friendly stages, the characters, moves and game mechanics themselves promote camping to such an extent, if you aren't camping, you're practically scrubbing yourself.

I find it kind of hilarious that so many comments on this thread believe a game which requires spending large ammounts of practicein order to win is superior. Games serve no other purpose that the enjoyment they give the player. Period.

One game is superior because of the options it gives us and because gameplay at the highest level of the other game will revolve almost solely around who's the best camper.

It all comes down to preferance. Some prefer more complex gameplay that takes time to master, and serves as a more accurate measurement of skill. But the truth of the matter is that such players are neither the majority nor the superior branch of the Smash community. Most just want to jump in and play Smash without the time commitment of mastering advanced techniques.

It all comes down to being able to recognize what the highest level of Brawl will look like.

Sure, people are free to not play it that way. But there will be at least a few who do. And they'll be the ones to win tournaments. Which will forces others to start camping more. And then it'll be a huge campfest.

Brawl is not about finding ways around camping. The game is programmed in such a way there's no real way to combat camping except to pick a character who's good at it and camp back. That's reality.

Unless we find a bunch of really game-breaking techs, that isn't going to change.

 

[thumbswayup]

It's the fact that Sakurai went out of his way to remove everything that makes smash interesting that pisses us all off.

 

[Wiseguy]

One game is superior because of the options it gives us and because gameplay at the highest level of the other game will revolve almost solely around who's the best camper.

The ammount of the options do not make the game. Whether it is enjoyable is all that matters.

It all comes down to being able to recognize what the highest level of Brawl will look like.

Sure, people are free to not play it that way. But there will be at least a few who do. And they'll be the ones to win tournaments. Which will forces others to start camping more. And then it'll be a huge campfest.

Brawl is not about finding ways around camping. The game is programmed in such a way there's no real way to combat camping except to pick a character who's good at it and camp back. That's reality.

Unless we find a bunch of really game-breaking techs, that isn't going to change.

Who cares? If more people enjoy that kind of defensive focused game (and they do) the change is for the better.

 

[NES n00b]

The ammount of the options do not make the game. Whether it is enjoyable is all that matters.

Options create the depth. It determines how difficult it is to fully grasp the game.

Who cares? If more people enjoy that kind of defensive focused game (and they do) the change is for the better.

I don't know if this matters, but I do care. Stuff like that makes it fun for me. =( Also define better? Better for people playing it, I guess so. Better for tourney players, no because these people most likely aren't going to be consistent in going to tournies anyways.

 

[Yuna]

The ammount of the options do not make the game. Whether it is enjoyable is all that matters.

I'm sorry, the discussion is about how people enjoy Brawl since when now? We're discussing Brawl's competitive viability.

The amount of options creates depth, which gives us more to work with when playing it on a competitive level. Dead or Alive doesn't have a competitive scene worth speaking of because it's just not that deep.

Who cares? If more people enjoy that kind of defensive focused game (and they do) the change is for the better.

Because it's not about people enjoying it (and most people won't even enjoy it, they'll either do it begrudgingly or stop playing), it's about what's the best tactic. Sometimes, the best tactic is not the most fun.

But unless you're playing to lose, you'll have to utilize said tactics.

We're not talking about "having fun" here. While it's quite possible and common to have fun while playing competitively and the two are not mutually exclusive, playing competitively can at times be not fun. Especially in a game where the most effective strategies and tactics are frowned upon by the competitive communities of all of the fighting games in the world.

Camping is considered demeaning to fighting games and frowned upon. But Brawl promotes camping. In Brawl, if you don't camp, you're playing to lose. The game itself is forcing us to play in a way most competitive players would frown upon in order to win.

Are you gonna play this game on a competitive level? You speak only of "fun", "enjoyment" and "the casual market" (though not in those terms). That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the game's competitive viability and competitive future. And it's looking quite bleak.

 

[Wiseguy]

I don't know if this matters, but I do care. Stuff like that makes it fun for me. =( Also define better? Better for people playing it, I guess so. Better for tourney players, no because these people most likely aren't going to be consistent in going to tournies anyways.

That's a fine opinion to have. Different people have different expectations on what they want from videogames. But you can't fault a videogame for appealing to other gamer's preferances and expectations. After all, no one forced you to buy it, or even play it.

 

[Nobie]

Camping is generally only considered demeaning in fighting games by, and I hate to use the term, "scrubs."

There are plenty of turtlers out there throughout fighting games, people who just sit in one spot and spam projectiles. They may get their opponents pissed and annoyed at the game, but in doing so they've pretty much already won.

Since people like quoting Sirlin so much in these sorts of threads, he's a perfectly good example of "camper" because his favorite strategies involve finding one powerful move or strategy and spamming it over and over to see if the opponent can overcome it. The most prominent example is his Rose from Street Fighter Alpha 2, as Sirlin is famous for playing a match where he used only one move the entire match: Low Strong. And yet Alpha 2 is considered to be a fine, competitive fighting game.

Note that this is different from camping to piss off a player new to the game who's just learning. I don't really condone that, as all you're doing is not bothering to teach someone the game.

But this entire thread assumes that people in here want to be competitive, right? But as you said, the competition and the path to victory in this game are being "frowned upon" by the competitive players. And why is that? I think it's because they don't find this type of competition FUN. So to say that "fun" and "enjoyment" aren't a factor and it's all about COMPETITIVE VIABILITY is only a half-truth. The only lesson I see from your post is that competitive players aren't finding the competition as FUN.

 

[thumbswayup]

That's a fine opinion to have. Different people have different expectations on what they want from videogames. But you can't fault a videogame for appealing to other gamer's preferances and expectations. After all, no one forced you to buy it, or even play it.

That's like defending a horrible sequel to an amazing film by saying that even though you loved the first film, no one forced you to watch the sequel.

Expectations were built by Melee. I think we all knew Brawl wouldn't live up to it, but we were hoping for SOMETHING deep and original. I've already stated countless times that I do not care about wavedash being removed, it is the very fact that the creator went out of his way, wasted our time with delays, and purposefully implemented elements that scream "**** off" to all competitive gamers that enfuriates and saddens me. If you cannot tell this from tripping and the lag from grabbing the edge, then you truly are blind and should no longer post your opinions on this matter.

 

[Yuna]

Camping is generally only considered demeaning in fighting games by, and I hate to use the term, "scrubs."

No, we consider camping stupid because most of the time, it's not even effective. It's someone using a stupid tactic trying to piss their opponent off to win on that.

The problem is that with Brawl, it's super-effective. The game engine itself optimizes it.

Since people like quoting Sirlin so much in these sorts of threads, he's a perfectly good example of "camper" because his favorite strategies involve finding one powerful move or strategy and spamming it over and over to see if the opponent can overcome it. The most prominent example is his Rose from Street Fighter Alpha 2, as Sirlin is famous for playing a match where he used only one move the entire match: Low Strong. And yet Alpha 2 is considered to be a fine, competitive fighting game.

The problem is that in Brawl, for a majority of the characters, camping is the optimal strategy. In high level play, all we're going to see is camping back and forth.

But this entire thread assumes that people in here want to be competitive, right? But as you said, the competition and the path to victory in this game are being "frowned upon" by the competitive players. And why is that? I think it's because they don't find this type of competition FUN. So to say that "fun" and "enjoyment" aren't a factor and it's all about COMPETITIVE VIABILITY is only a half-truth. The only lesson I see from your post is that competitive players aren't finding the competition as FUN.

It's not just not fun, it actually works against competition. No longer will the strategy be to out-smart your opponent, to "mindgame" them, to simply have superior defense vs. offense. It'll all be about who can camp better.

And I never said fun had nothing to do with it. I said that the discussion at hand is not how much fun Brawl can be. It's about that at the highest level of play, it won't be fun for anyone (except those few who actually enjoy camping for hours on end).

 

[Wiseguy]

I'm sorry, the discussion is about how people enjoy Brawl since when now? We're discussing Brawl's competitive viability.

The amount of options creates depth, which gives us more to work with when playing it on a competitive level. Dead or Alive doesn't have a competitive scene worth speaking of because it's just not that deep.


Because it's not about people enjoying it (and most people won't even enjoy it, they'll either do it begrudgingly or stop playing), it's about what's the best tactic. Sometimes, the best tactic is not the most fun.

But unless you're playing to lose, you'll have to utilize said tactics.

We're not talking about "having fun" here. While it's quite possible and common to have fun while playing competitively and the two are not mutually exclusive, playing competitively can at times be not fun. Especially in a game where the most effective strategies and tactics are frowned upon by the competitive communities of all of the fighting games in the world.

Camping is considered demeaning to fighting games and frowned upon. But Brawl promotes camping. In Brawl, if you don't camp, you're playing to lose. The game itself is forcing us to play in a way most competitive players would frown upon in order to win.

Are you gonna play this game on a competitive level? You speak only of "fun", "enjoyment" and "the casual market" (though not in those terms). That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the game's competitive viability and competitive future. And it's looking quite bleak.

Yes, I am going to play Brawl competitively. EVERYONE does, if they engage in competitions of any kind. Which I do, almost every day with friends, family and online opponents. This sometimes, but not always, involves my participating in "real" tournaments where money is on the line. If "competitive" means having people compete (which it does) then Brawl's future is bright in this regard. The "quality" of this competition is irrelivant if people enjoy it.

Some people do find games which discourage camping and reliably reward skill to be fun. But it is not the only (or the most popular) method of attaining fun for the people who play Smash. Sakurai therefore made the correct decision in making Brawl a more defensive, approachable, and less "skill based" game. A minority of folks may not like the changes, but that is an acceptable loss in order to achieve the greatest ammount of enjoyment for the greatest number.

 

[thumbswayup]

Let me ask you, Wiseguy, because clearly you don't seem to understand: how does having something like L-canceling discourage people who don't know about it from playing/buying the game?

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Some people do find games which discourage camping and reliably reward skill to be fun. But it is not the only (or the most popular) method of attaining fun for the people who play Smash. Sakurai therefore made the correct decision in making Brawl a more defensive, approachable, and less "skill based" game. A minority of folks may not like the changes, but that is an acceptable loss in order to achieve the greatest ammount of enjoyment for the greatest number.

Honestly, I think the majority of players won't even realize that camping is the best strategy because they don't play the game at a true competitive level.

That's why it's so frustrating that Sakurai purposely killed the competitive aspects of the game... his general target audience won't even bother to actually get good at the game, regardless of depth and technicality. They just wanna push buttons and play with characters they know and see pretty colors.


edit: word, thumbswayup. word.

 

[Wuss]

Wiseguy: the problem with what you're saying is that, as Yuna has clearly proven, high level playing of brawl is boring for both the player and the spectator. You may enjoy playing with your friends and what not on your level, but if you guys tried to be the best, you would soon grow tired of spamming projectiles. Not to mention, if money is on the line, people care less about how "Fun" it is and more about how fair it is.

 

[Yuna]

Yes, I am going to play Brawl competitively. EVERYONE does, if they engage in competitions of any kind. Which I do, almost every day with friends, family and online opponents. This sometimes, but not always, involves my participating in "real" tournaments where money is on the line. If "competitive" means having people compete (which it does) then Brawl's future is bright in this regard. The "quality" of this competition is irrelivant if people enjoy it.

Competitive videogaming is not about simply sitting down with a friend and trying to win over them. It isn't.

You're not playing a game competitively if all you're doing is playing against your friend. To be competitive, you have to constantly striving to reach the peak of the metagame.

Some people do find games which discourage camping and reliably reward skill to be fun. But it is not the only (or the most popular) method of attaining fun for the people who play Smash. Sakurai therefore made the correct decision in making Brawl a more defensive, approachable, and less "skill based" game. A minority of folks may not like the changes, but that is an acceptable loss in order to achieve the greatest ammount of enjoyment for the greatest number.

So you're saying that you, your friends and the majority of Brawl owner out there will reaaaaaally love it when they reach the peak of Brawl skill where everyone's camping back and forth and a lot of games actually run out of time because of rampant camping?

Where people aren't even attempting to approach anymore since camping in various ways shuts down almost everything else? Are you going to be enjoying the game then?

You cannot be a competitive player if you don't want the game you're playing competitively to measure skill.

Honestly, I think the majority of players won't even realize that camping is the best strategy because they don't play the game at a true competitive level.

But then they won't be playing the game competitively.

People are free to play games however they want. They are free to play it with Smash Balls, all items, all stages, whatever. I could care less. However, people have this illusion of Brawl being very competitively viable, that we can build a tournament scene around it where the skill level and size will one day rival or even surpass that of Melee's as of today.

This just isn't true due to how the game is programmed. At high level play, it will devolve into who can camp the best. Skill will revolve around camping. Character selection will revolve around camping. Everything will revolve around camping.

And everyone will get bored and stop playing.

Sure, individual players can choose not to camp, but that's crippling themselves because then, the players who do camp will just crush them.

You can play Brawl as much as you want. You can even host tournaments in it. But don't delude yourself like some people seem to be doing. Brawl equates camping.

A good example if Dead or Alive 4:
It's a fighting game that's really easy to pick up and that many casual players enjoy playing. But the competitive scene is tiny because the game itself is broken and programmed in a way that very few competitive players feel like picking it up.

This does not mean people can't enjoy it on a casual level. But no matter how hard they try, it'll never become as big as, say, Tekken.

 

[Dream Chaser]

If camping is so good in Brawl, why is metaknight considered the best character?
He doesnt have any projectiles.

 

[Lord Viper]

I'll ask this question once.... WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL HERE!?!?!?!

I thought this thread served it's purpose. =/

 

[KosukeKGA]

Dream Chaser, you don't need projectiles to camp.

 

[DragonBlade]

The problem is that with Brawl, it's super-effective.

It's Super Effective!

/thread, imo

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

If camping is so good in Brawl, why is metaknight considered the best character?
He doesnt have any projectiles.

His up b is totally broken. It can kill at 0%.

Ice climbers have a relatively crappy spamming projectile too but they can chaingrab anyone, and more easily than in melee. This isn't something you can really ban, so it's potentially a big problem.

Also you can camp up close without projectiles by keeping hitboxes up. See Game and Watch and Metaknight.

True, it's not spamming, but it's still equally lame, and detracts from the game competitively.

 

[Yuna]

If camping is so good in Brawl, why is metaknight considered the best character?
He doesnt have any projectiles.

There are exceptions to the rule. Also camping =/= projectile spamming. Marth can camp really well. Camping is an entire art. Meta-Knight himself is a great camper.

 

[Bluebottel]

I find it kind of hilarious that so many comments on this thread believe a game which requires spending large ammounts of practicein order to win is superior.

Well, they are superior. A game that requires no practice whatsoever or minium amounts simply have less things in them to learn, get better at and try out.

Games serve no other purpose that the enjoyment they give the player. Period.

WRONG! The military uses it for training purposes and lots people earn loads of money both from making and playing games. Dont try to 'downgrade' their value, many games have more impact on peoples lives than most politicians/laws/people.

The ammount of the options do not make the game. Whether it is enjoyable is all that matters.

Any company can hire people to make game for them, most companies cant make good games however. How enjoyable a game is seriously affected by the amounts of options in it.
Starcraft vs Rock paper scissors is a prime example of one game having a total of 3 options while the other is having far more. I and millions of others prefer Starcraft.

Who cares? If more people enjoy that kind of defensive focused game (and they do) the change is for the better.

This is so stupid that it deserves its own thread.
Think about it for a second. Who are the people that make up the smash community? Well, as of now there are three camps as i see it.

1. Scrubs playing Brawl.
2. Non-scrub/good players playing Melee
3. Non-scrub/good players playing Brawl

Category 1 players dissapear quickly, and maby 1 in 1000 goes on to become non-scrub/good. Category 2 players recognizes Melees solid gameplay and depth and category 3 players will most likely share fate with the category 1 players once they find out that Brawl lacks the depth of Melee. Unless, of course, they revert to category 2 players.
Note that i didnt add a fourth section (scrubs playing Melee) because the barely exist anymore.

A popular game have lots of 1's thus being popular. A game that consists of 100% 1's will die off quickly as they discover newer and shinier toys to play with.

Easier gameplay have always attracted newer players, thats why the market is crawling with them. The average Joe sucks at games, he want stuff that requires zero effort and minimum amounts of time to learn and play. And the game companies want it that way because that means they get to sell more games making even more money.

 

[Wiseguy]

Let me ask you, Wiseguy, because clearly you don't seem to understand: how does having something like L-canceling discourage people who don't know about it from playing/buying the game?

Well, there isn't much incentive to go to tournaments or compete online unless you've spent time mastering such a technique. Which most people have not.

Honestly, I think the majority of players won't even realize that camping is the best strategy because they don't play the game at a true competitive level.

That's why it's so frustrating that Sakurai purposely killed the competitive aspects of the game... his general target audience won't even bother to actually get good at the game, regardless of depth and technicality. They just wanna push buttons and play with characters they know and see pretty colors.

edit: word, thumbswayup. word.

You over exagerate. Brawl still requires skill to win, just less so than Melee.

However, since videogames are only useful for the fun they provide, randomly pushing buttons is no less valid entertainment than getting good" at the game.

Wiseguy: the problem with what you're saying is that, as Yuna has clearly proven, high level playing of brawl is boring for both the player and the spectator. You may enjoy playing with your friends and what not on your level, but if you guys tried to be the best, you would soon grow tired of spamming projectiles. Not to mention, if money is on the line, people care less about how "Fun" it is and more about how fair it is.

So a small minority is sacrificed for the majority's gameplay preferances. It's an acceptable loss. If someone doesn't like one game, there are plenty others to choose from.

Competitive videogaming is not about simply sitting down with a friend and trying to win over them. It isn't.

Thoughtful rebuttal: "Is too!"

You're not playing a game competitively if all you're doing is playing against your friend. To be competitive, you have to constantly striving to reach the peak of the metagame.

You are confusing skill measurement will actual competitiveness. All that is required to be competive is to compete. That's what the word has always meant as it is the traditional, proper definition.

So you're saying that you, your friends and the majority of Brawl owner out there will reaaaaaally love it when they reach the peak of Brawl skill where everyone's camping back and forth and a lot of games actually run out of time because of rampant camping?

Well, I played Melee religiously for six years and attended every touranment in my area. In all that time, my efforts to improve consisted of playing with friends and trying not to suck. Never even mastered short hopping until it was noobified for Brawl (about time). I enjoyed every minute of it - even when playing against spammers.

Where people aren't even attempting to approach anymore since camping in various ways shuts down almost everything else? Are you going to be enjoying the game then?

You cannot be a competitive player if you don't want the game you're playing competitively to measure skill.

Anyone who competes is a competitive players. Skill measurement is something different.

Saying otherwise is akin to "casual" players claiming that tournament players who turn off items hate fun.

Hating randomness =/= hating fun.

Not caring about skill measurement =/= not being comepitiive.

But then they won't be playing the game competitively.

People are free to play games however they want. They are free to play it with Smash Balls, all items, all stages, whatever. I could care less. However, people have this illusion of Brawl being very competitively viable, that we can build a tournament scene around it where the skill level and size will one day rival or even surpass that of Melee's as of today.

This just isn't true due to how the game is programmed. At high level play, it will devolve into who can camp the best. Skill will revolve around camping. Character selection will revolve around camping. Everything will revolve around camping.

And everyone will get bored and stop playing.

Sure, individual players can choose not to camp, but that's crippling themselves because then, the players who do camp will just crush them.

You can play Brawl as much as you want. You can even host tournaments in it. But don't delude yourself like some people seem to be doing. Brawl equates camping.

A good example if Dead or Alive 4:
It's a fighting game that's really easy to pick up and that many casual players enjoy playing. But the competitive scene is tiny because the game itself is broken and programmed in a way that very few competitive players feel like picking it up.

This does not mean people can't enjoy it on a casual level. But no matter how hard they try, it'll never become as big as, say, Tekken.

If you took every who played Melee, you'd be lucky to find 1 in 10 who plays on what would be considered a "competitive" (ie: skill measurment obsessed) level. Unlike other fighters, the backbone of the Brawl community consists of people who play the game because they genuinely love it, not because they want to stand atop the mountain and scream "I'm the bestiest Smash player evar!"

People were playing Smash religiously long before money tournaments and they will continue to do so long into the future. Not because it's the best fighter for measuring skill (it isn't) but because it's just that much fun. How you go about getting that fun (coin matches or stock, Final Destination or New Pork City) has always been and will continue to be a matter of personal preferance, and therefore irrelivant.

 

[Yuna]

You have no grasp of what the term "competitive gaming" means. No, its does not simply mean "compete using a game".

To be a competitive gamer is to play according to a certain mindset, certain values. The term has a meaning to it. We wrote the term, we decided what it means. The fact that you're using it with the wrong connotation does not make it right.

Is it confusing? Perhaps. But it doesn't change that fact that you're simply using it wrong.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Wiseguy, your definitions are strange. You don't even refute our points properly, you just disagree on definitions.

Your basic point is "it doesn't matter what you say, people will have fun playing coin matches and using poke balls and playing the SSE"... which has nothing to do with the competitive community.

Also you seem to think that flashy candy coated gameplay will result in fun over the long haul, perhaps even more so than a game that sucks you in with depth. Most of these kids are gonna play Brawl for a few months, get bored, and move onto the next piece of crap that's well marketed. We're in it for more than some random shallow entertainment.

The reason I always preferred Nintendo over Sony/Microsoft is the actual gameplay... Nintendo games have always been better designed and more fun. PS games were just flashy, "badass", dark... but the gameplay sucks. It seems to me that Nintendo is leaning towards that as well. The symbol is more important than the substance, because the symbol is all you really need to sell games.

The substance only needs to be there at first glance. A la Brawl.

 

[Yuna]

There will be plenty of casual gamers who'll play the game for fun. They might dabble with tournaments. The majority of them won't have the dedicated, talent or even motivation to spend the time to get really good at Brawl.

They might keep playing it casually with their friends and whatnot (like there are tons of casual Melee-players), but they won't be playing it competitively. This is how people work.

Just because millions or gamers are playing Brawl casually doesn't mean that a good portion of them will become competitive.

 

[thumbswayup]

Wiseguy, your definitions are strange. You don't even refute our points properly, you just disagree on definitions.

Your basic point is "it doesn't matter what you say, people will have fun playing coin matches and using poke balls and playing the SSE"... which has nothing to do with the competitive community.

Also you seem to think that flashy candy coated gameplay will result in fun over the long haul, perhaps even more so than a game that sucks you in with depth. Most of these kids are gonna play Brawl for a few months, get bored, and move onto the next piece of crap that's well marketed. We're in it for more than some random shallow entertainment.

The reason I always preferred Nintendo over Sony/Microsoft is the actual gameplay... Nintendo games have always been better designed and more fun. PS games were just flashy, "badass", dark... but the gameplay sucks. It seems to me that Nintendo is leaning towards that as well. The symbol is more important than the substance, because the symbol is all you really need to sell games.

The substance only needs to be there at first glance. A la Brawl.

Well said. I agree completely.

Wiseguy, you do realize 99 percent of the people who purchased brawl will never enter a tounrnament and encounter people like us right? You think that advanced techniques would have discouraged online competitive play amongst people who don't know they exist? I doubt anyone of any skill would try L-canceling with massive button delay and lag ESPECIALLY if it's just to use it against noobs.

 

[Catmunnies]

Now, I'm sorry if some one has said this already, but did you people forget that melee was a great game. It sold millions, nobody cared that game was technichle; it was still fun, and fun games get purchased.

What Sakurai did with brawl wasn't to make money; he just wanted every who plays the game to have a fair chance at winning.

Well, he failed at doing that in brawl, and he definetly failed at doing that in melee.

His next game should be rock, paper, scissors.

 

[Pink Reaper]

The reason I always preferred Nintendo over Sony/Microsoft is the actual gameplay... Nintendo games have always been better designed and more fun. PS games were just flashy, "badass", dark... but the gameplay sucks. It seems to me that Nintendo is leaning towards that as well. The symbol is more important than the substance, because the symbol is all you really need to sell games.

This part made me sad because it reminded me that every time a Nintendo game has sucked since the Wii came out, it was on purpose

 

[NekoBoy085]

As long as I enjoy this game on a scale higher then melee, I don't care what Sakurai had planned lol. I am having a good time and that's what counts.

 

[Dime]

His next game should be rock, paper, scissors.

Did you know that there are official competitions for rock, paper, scissors?

Now you know!... and knowing is ... well you know the rest.

 

[Avalon262]

I'll ask this question once.... WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL HERE!?!?!?!

I thought this thread served it's purpose. =/

This thread and scars thread already showed us how much pro melee players hate brawl and think Sakurai is an idiot. The fact is there are a lot of new people on this board that don't understand the competitive player logic and they continue to post and pros continue to take the bait in responding.

I would think this thread would have died long ago but its just going to be an endless cycle of new players hating what the pros are saying, and pros firing back.