S-Cancel vs L-Cancel vs Auto L-cancel! Discuss!

[Mazaloth]

The conclusion is simple.
That a technique that can increase kill rates should be required to have another side to it.
One that needs to be mastered.
Living life with pure bliss is nice, but it is so much better to earn it.
A.K.A L-canceling and not S-canceling.

 

[PukeTShirt]

yeah i agree with mazaloth. If it's between L and S, then L. If its between L, S, PS, or any combination of the above, then i would say L and PS in combination is a good idea

 

[Wind Owl]

Seems like a lot of people are in favor of Magus and err's amazing idea. Someone go find a hacker or hack it themselves ;o

 

[Revven]

Seems like a lot of people are in favor of Magus and err's amazing idea. Someone go find a hacker or hack it themselves ;o

Or, how about asking PW about how feasible it is. And then maybe he'd be interested in it. >_>

 

[Wind Owl]

It sounds to me like a very feasible idea. PW already wrote most of it already.

EDIT: Falco, why aren't you in our chat? >_>

 

[Xeial]

Or, how about asking PW about how feasible it is. And then maybe he'd be interested in it. >_>

Good point, Falco. None of this will matter at all if PW doesn't feel like doing it or no-one else takes up the challenge for hack development.

This has been stated before, but aren't we all being awfully demanding of PW? Seeing as how he developed these hacks, this all seems just a tad bit thankless.

 

[zxeon]

Good point, Falco. None of this will matter at all if PW doesn't feel like doing it or no-one else takes up the challenge for hack development.

This has been stated before, but aren't we all being awfully demanding of PW? Seeing as how he developed these hacks, this all seems just a tad bit thankless.

Should we pay him commission lol?

 

[Revven]

It's obvious he wouldn't be interested in making anything that is a Melee-esque code even if we DID pay him.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

What's worse is that you can instantly jump out of a shield, so you can literally just hold down the shield button and do repeated shffls extremely fast. With characters that have disjointed hit-boxes in their aerials, it makes for an impenetrable wall of offense that you can not approach or punish in any fashion. And if they don't feel like jumping again, then can always instantly grab you.

Yeah, S-canceling is not something I would support as a "standardized" alternative.

That's why Magus's proposal is interesting. Say that you choose use this tactic by s-canceling. But a third of your shield is eaten up each time you cancel. That means the third time you cancel in a row, your shield will break leaving you very punishable. So instead its something you can only do once in a while, because you have to wait for your shield to grow back. So no character will be able to abuse this tech.

Also this makes you think twice about shield camping, because you know that if you rely on your shield too much, you will lose the ability to perform the s cancel, a very advanced tech. Your opponent will also keep in mind how much shield you have left, for example, if they know you have a small amount of shield left, they know that there is a good chance that you will not try to perfect cancel and they can risk shield grabbing without being punished.

I think this simple addition adds an incredible amount of depth to the game. Brawl becomes more of a thinking man's game. This change adds options to gameplay and the amount of options you have in a particular situation is what dictates how deep a game is. And it makes it more competetive in the sense that the better player knows how to make the correct choices out of the many options hes given in any particular situation.

 

[K1T3]

I've only read a couple posts so far so sorry if I repeat things or say things that have been answered, I will read the rest of the thread soon when I can.

Magus the reason someone would want that 1 dimensional button push is simply because it is something else to do. One of the things that prevents me from playing brawl is that I get bored really quickly due to... well nothing to do.... It's all strategy and if I want to just play a strategy game then I would play Go or chess, but in a video game I want there to be some technical aspect, even something one dimensional like L canceling.

Now I do think it is a good idea to improve upon it and have some sort of draw back that way you also have to think about when it is benificial to use and when it is not. Also I would be in favor of making the timing a bit harder.

Other things I think should be added to brawl are a tiny bit of shield hit stun, a greater dash dance range so that it is semi useful, and if it's possible analog L/R triggers, but I doubt that last one is doable =(

For the shield hit stun I would still like it to be as melee in that there is no stun at all when you powershield.

 

[PukeTShirt]

I see where you are coming from in saying it's a tad thankless, but PW kinda opened "Pandora's box" when the WD and L-canceling codes were written. If he doesn't want to do it, then this is all for naught, but since he has already put in the WD and L-canceling codes, it doesn't seem like too much to ask for a little more. We could always organize a "thanks" fund, if a good number of people donate like $2, PW could have a good reason to keep working on this....

 

[Kal]

There exists a simple mechanic to test the two techniques. Someone (Phantom X maybe?) needs to write two codes:

One code needs to eliminate all landing lag on aerials.
One code needs to eliminate half landing lag on aerials.

Try each code for a few hours in random vs. random. You can see which results are more suitable for competition through testing. The codes will represent what it's like to play with the original S-Cancel and L-Cancel codes consistently.

 

[zxeon]

But doesn't taking shield away just punish all the characters that don't have auto-canceled or quick air moves? how can you expect to keep up with meta knight and samus when you have to pay for something they get automatically. It makes slower characters worse. This might have worked in Melee when everyone had to cancel, but that isn't the case anymore.

 

[Makkun]

But doesn't taking shield away just punish all the characters that don't have auto-canceled or quick air moves? how can you expect to keep up with meta knight and samus when you have to pay for something they get automatically. It makes slower characters worse. This might have worked in Melee when everyone had to cancel, but that isn't the case anymore.

I agree. This just separates MK from the rest of the cast again. Of course, the other characters CAN still cancel, it's just at a cost. Meanwhile, MK never needs to cancel.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

well we have to deal with MKs autocanceling their air attacks. But now with Magus's canceling other characters are given half the lag removed from all aerials and the option of having all of the lag canceled.
Think of it a everyone is getting a buff that MK does not need.

 

[zxeon]

well we have to deal with MKs autocanceling their air attacks. But now with Magus's canceling other characters are given half the lag removed from all aerials and the option of having all of the lag canceled.
Think of it a everyone is getting a buff that MK does not need.

A buff meta knight already has and doesn't need to pay for.

 

[Makkun]

A buff meta knight already has and doesn't need to pay for.

Which therefor puts him above everyone else, still. To slightly exaggerate: Everybody needs S-canceling in order to keep up with MK.

 

[Magus420]

The code includes the lag being reduced by half by default which benefits the slower characters a lot more.

By default:
30 frame move -> 15 = 15 removed
8 frame move -> 4 = 4 removed


Same thing with the reduction on a ps-cancel.

With cancel:
30 frame move -> 0 = 30 removed
8 frame move -> 0 = 8 removed


Perhaps one of the most important things you're forgetting besides them gaining far more safe and usable powerful attacks in general, however, is their shieldstun which is generally greater and when it's combined with having 0 lag.

Canceled 30 frame move = ~6-7 frame advantage
Canceled 8 frame move = ~2-3 frame advantage

With the slower characters, you could actually hit them again or grab if you're close enough while they're still in block stun. That's a very valuable thing to have that they'd be gaining with it. The faster characters don't get nearly as much in that regard, and in most cases they'd be able to sidestep or roll away in time from many of the follow ups on faster aerials.

 

[hippyman69]

l-canceling/z-canceling doesn't add any real depth to the game, because there's no benefit in choosing not to perform them; it's just an arbitrary technical barrier so that people who are "in the know" about the game can have an advantage over people who have not had the good fortune to stumble upon this site.

False. After 9 years of playing smash casually and developing on my own without this site. i discovered z canceling by myself. started out about 5 years ago wen using link's dair. i just happened to press shield to block an attack coming my way just b4 i touched the ground. and i noticed all the lag from his dair was gone. it took another year b4 i realised that this could be applied to every move in the game.

tl;dr if you are observant enough, you will find these things. l-canceling should be put in brwal. AT's separate noobs and pros.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Which therefor puts him above everyone else, still. To slightly exaggerate: Everybody needs S-canceling in order to keep up with MK.

i don't really see the point you are trying to make here.
I realize that MK does not need the buff, but giving it to other chars will make them faster and will help them be able to keep up with MK.

 

[Makkun]

i don't really see the point you are trying to make here.
I realize that MK does not need the buff, but giving it to other chars will make them faster and will help them be able to keep up with MK.

Yeah, but the characters that are worse in the first place would then have to PAY in order just to be up to par with him.


But now I think differently after reading Magus's post. It makes sense to me now. XD

 

[Scykoh]

I definatly think L-Canceling is the way to go.

The PS-Canceling is interesting, but to dig deeper into the Meta Knight thing, -yes- the slower characters gain more of a benefit as far as reduced lag goes. However, Meta Knight not having the lag to begin with, he basicly doesn't need to PS-Cancel, which means he doesn't lose 33% of his shield or what not. So this would boost him even further.

However, if you somehow could add in both L-Canceling and PS-Canceling (as someone was suggesting earlier, can't remember name, sorry.) then it would work, because the slow characters could have half lag consistantly, then a no lag when called for. This would be the best option in my opinion because it adds the depth of PS-Canceling without boosting MK through the roof.

I guess this brings up the question, -can- you have both, and how would input work? I suppose an extra button press (I'm sure someone creative could come up with which button) to activate PS-Canceling, which would also help in the "accidental activation" department.

 

[Magus420]

However, if you somehow could add in both L-Canceling and PS-Canceling (as someone was suggesting earlier, can't remember name, sorry.) then it would work, because the slow characters could have half lag consistantly, then a no lag when called for. This would be the best option in my opinion because it adds the depth of PS-Canceling without boosting MK through the roof.

I guess this brings up the question, -can- you have both, and how would input work? I suppose an extra button press (I'm sure someone creative could come up with which button) to activate PS-Canceling, which would also help in the "accidental activation" department.

Maybe give aerials half lag by default, and also have the option of canceling ALL lag but with some kind of negative aspect...

...Also, maybe have it be input with Z or L/R+A instead of just L/R or another combination so it'd be less likely to happen by accident when you wanted to just shield after landing normally.

That's actually exactly what's been suggested all along ever since I originally pitched the whole ps-cancel idea

 

[Scykoh]

That's actually exactly what's been suggested all along ever since I originally pitched the whole ps-cancel idea

Half the lag by default shouldn't be in IMO, L-Canceling > that. But yeah, I did read you said an extra button for the use should be there, and I could've swore I put a "as said before" or something like that in my line of text where I said it, my bad..

 

[#HBC | Mac]

lol yea i was thinking we were talking about automatic L canceling and then PS canceling on command (which takes 1/3 of your shield or so)...

Magus canceling

XD

 

[Eggm]

I have no issue if they can put both in at the same time, but if you can't (dunno how the codes work) then L-cancel.

 

[Stratocaster]

The more I hear about "Magus canceling" (haha, nice) the more interested I am in it, but wouldn't it be ridiculous to actually code. Specifically, in brawl powershielding makes your shield regenerate fully, so making a power cancel that uses the powershield animation but reduces your shield by 33%, wouldn't that make powershielding also reduce your shield... one animation that does 2 opposite functions seems either impossible, or difficult to code.

But if it works, I'm all for it. I wish we could assign PS-canceling to Z and L-canceling to R/L... but whatever, I guess its the same thing as long as you have a little skill. It just requires less focus to not have to L-cancel every aerial. Though, eventually its just a habit anyway. I can't count how many times I've L-canceled my aerials in regular Brawl after playing melee.

 

[zxeon]

Putting a cost on cancelation will end up hurting the characters that need it most.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

theres only a cost in PS canceling, there would not be a cost in the regular automatic L canceling. Don't you think its better to do it that way then to just have L canceling? (which is most likely what would happen since many people think PS canceling is overpowered)

also yea I can see how that would be ridiculous to code.

 

[Mooplet]

I am enjoying L-cancel ... a lot. It flows well in the game and doesn't look out of place--

Dunno how the theoretical cancel ones will work until we get them actually coded?
Let's wait and see what happens exactly, i think this is completely awesome with this L-cancel model so *shrug*

this is better than christmas, im so excited >_>

 

[Wind Owl]

I propose that the name be offically made, "Magus canceling," or perhaps "M-canceling" for short.

 

[OK'Ssuka?]

I think that Magus420's idea is so that while everyone benefits with the auto-L-Cancel (more so for characters with laggy but powerful aerials, mainly the heavies, than those with little lag in their aerials already (aka Meta Knight...lol) ), those that decide to use Magus420's version of the S-Cancel will do so with some thought on the risk/reward in their minds.

With S-Canceling as it is, the risk/reward ratio is heavily in favor of reward without risk and it tends to shift the favor to the heavies and those with laggy aerials (Ike, Snake, Ganondorf, Link, etc), meaning the lighties with little laggy aerials, who gain only little to no (ha ha...Meta Knight again) benefit could potentially get shafted (well, perhaps not so for Meta Knight, though I say this again in jest) and fall behind very much.

With Magus-Canceling/M-Canceling (as Wind Owl named it), we will have some measure of risk/reward with Magus420's version of S-canceling such that heavies or those with laggy aerials will not mindlessly spam the S-cancel function, and put to thought whether or not they want to sacrifice their shield (the risk) in favor of a greater offense (the reward). At least, that is how I see it...and though it does make me somewhat amused to see Ike be able to swing his sword like crazy in the air all day without much fear or Ganondorf skull crush (fair) his opponents all day or Snake do a wall of manliness (aka bairs) or Link dair his way through his opponents, the S-Canceling as it stands tends to reward these with little risk (if any risk) at all. M-Canceling, I believe for the moment, might be the way to go...

Ha ha, Wind Owl...now you got me using that terminology. M-Canceling...heh heh heh...Chrono Trigger...

 

[Magus420]

Specifically, in brawl powershielding makes your shield regenerate fully

The only thing is that Brawl's shield auto fills if you can powershield.

Is there any real proof of this? Because it really doesn't look that way to me, although I don't actually have the game to be able to test it myself.

In the clip on the left the 2nd attack is powershielded, but the only thing that appears to happen to it strength-wise is that it doesn't take any damage from that hit. It doesn't look like it restored any of its power, and definitely doesn't look like it replenished fully when you compare it to the undamaged shield in the clip to the right.

__________ Powershield _________________________ Undamaged

.....

 

[Meteor!]

I'm fairly certain that the shield does NOT regenerate with powershields.

 

[Wind Owl]

I think people might be saying that because the entire shield appears for a split second, but it definitely looks like it doesn't regenerate.

 

[Magus420]

I remember there being a thread that claimed it did not long after the game came out. I also remember the video that was supposed to show it in action did a very poor job of proving it, because for whatever reason after the PS they sat around for a couple seconds doing nothing before actually showing the shield again, so it just looked like it regenerated on its own during that time. That might be where the idea came from.

Whatever the reason, it seems like that potential issue for the code doesn't need to be worried about and keeps it relatively simple to make since most of the code required already exists. I imagine it'd mostly just be locating the PS animation and shield strength in the game, and then switching the existing l-cancel code around a bit so the l-cancel input in PW's code runs the powershield animation and reduces the shield while the half aerial attack lag part in the code is run by default.

I would try to adjust it myself, but for one I don't even own a Wii =/

 

[kupo15]

That's why Magus's proposal is interesting. Say that you choose use this tactic by s-canceling. But a third of your shield is eaten up each time you cancel. That means the third time you cancel in a row, your shield will break leaving you very punishable. So instead its something you can only do once in a while, because you have to wait for your shield to grow back. So no character will be able to abuse this tech.

So with this, it seems like you are making things just as defensive as what we have now (maybe a step up) and its not really making things too much offensive.

So it seems like this will happen. I cant scare my opponent with empty shffls without the risk of a shield break. Even if I go for offensive shffls, I can only do two before being forced to retreat and camp while waiting for my shield to regenerate.

So it seems like the M-cancel kinda discourages you to be aggressive over l cancel since l cancel you can be as aggressive as you want without punishment.

I think the current l cancel is fine unless I have a wrong picture of what m-cancel is.

 

[Magus420]

You would have half the normal lag like regular l-cancel speed by default at no cost, with an additional option of having 0 lag with enhanced offensive abilities compared to the regular s-cancel but at a cost. How would that be more defensive than normal l-cancel?

Why does everyone seem to overlook that part? =/

 

[kupo15]

I think the current l cancel is fine unless I have a wrong picture of what m-cancel is.

sorry, your explanation was really long so I had to reread it several times and I still couldnt quite understand. Probably since I never played the game you compared it too so I still had no idea what it did in that game.

Your last post was very short, concise and clear so it makes sense now.

 

[infernovia]

Is there any real proof of this? Because it really doesn't look that way to me, although I don't actually have the game to be able to test it myself.

In the clip on the left the 2nd attack is powershielded, but the only thing that appears to happen to it strength-wise is that it doesn't take any damage from that hit. It doesn't look like it restored any of its power, and definitely doesn't look like it replenished fully when you compare it to the undamaged shield in the clip to the right.

__________ Powershield _________________________ Undamaged

.....

Hmm, I guess I misinterpreted shield does not deplete to an undepleted shield? I don't know.

Also, I am for shield depleted attack more than shield canceling. As much as I like constant ivy's uair (like Lucario's dair), I would not like it to be so overpowered.

Its going to be hard to implement the shield break I think.

Edit: This also gives me an idea. Why don't we have user spawned item code where shield + b gives items? I think that could make items competitive. We need more creative ideas like the one magus posted.