Event - Apex 2015 Ruleset

[infomon]

When will the Apex Smash4 ruleset be posted? Does anyone have an idea if Miis and/or custom specials will be allowed? Or which stages?

 

[Kuraudo]

I second this. We're just dying to know what the ruleset will be. People need to prepare for the stages/CP options/etc.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I third this, especially since I think the community not only deserves time to practice on said stages but argue over the legality of any Apex decides not to use, especially with the game as young as it is.

 

[infomon]

It's okay for early tournaments like Apex to have an imperfect ruleset. Let's try not to harp on criticizing the TOs for whatever decisions they make, it's a tough call.

But the earlier we can see the ruleset, the earlier we can have the conversation about what choices might or might not be appropriate. More importantly it just lets us practice, and evens the playing field. We don't want people "in the know" / connected to the TO to have an advantage.

 

[MadKraken]

It's less than two months away; I sure hope it's revealed soon. For the time being, it's a big gamble whether or not to practice using custom moves. I imagine the Mii mainers are especially anxious. This is actually rather disturbing.

 

[LiteralGrill]

It does not help that almost every single thread about Smash 4 Apex Qualifiers has the ruleset as "TBA" and it is rarely updated before the event itself, if at all.

 

[smashmachine]

no? ok

why are Smash 4 rulesets rarely even listed to begin with

 

[theta64]

do you fox with it smash 3ds was 3 stocks, so i imagine smash wii u will be 3 stocks as well with those neutral legal stages. i hope apex is 3 stocks. i hate 2. makes game go too fast

 

[Dissent]

I personally hope that Apex sets a standard of more stages for tournament play. Brawl started life for the first several years with a ton of stages legal that could hurt you, suddenly kill you or be camped easily on. It made it exciting to watch and interesting to play (Unless you were on the receiving end). This game is less defense oriented at the current state of the metagame and deserves to see more stages in tournament play.

 

[Overswarm]

If custom moves aren't on, I would consider Apex essentially the "for glory" of tournaments. Who hosts a tournament where 66% of the moves aren't usable?

 

[[Deuce]]

If custom moves aren't on, I would consider Apex essentially the "for glory" of tournaments. Who hosts a tournament where 66% of the moves aren't usable?

Wrong.

Each character has 23 moves: Up/down/forward/back air, Up/down/forward tilt, up/down/forward smash, up/down/forward/neutral B, jab, up/down/forward/neutral custom2, up/down/forward/neutral custom3. Only 15 moves are usable (34% unused) at a time regardless if customs are on or off.

 

[Overswarm]

The context clue you missed was the beginning of the first sentence, which implies the statement "the moves" is specifically referring to "custom moves".

If you want to be pedantic, you forgot Robin's alternate aerials, spell charges, and other such 'moves' as well.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think the numbers are insignificant details. Regardless of how you slice it, playing without customs is playing a gimped, casual version of the game.

Smash 4 is still probably the best multiplayer video game of all time even without custom moves, but it's insulting and out of touch not to play the real game.

 

[19_]

I think the numbers are insignificant details. Regardless of how you slice it, playing without customs is playing a gimped, casual version of the game.

Smash 4 is still probably the best multiplayer video game of all time even without custom moves, but it's insulting and out of touch not to play the real game.

As "insulting and out of touch" as is may be you have to keep in mind that the situation with customs is not an intentional one.
As I may have said before TOs probably do want customs on but they find to much effort. This, however, does not excuse the fact that this is a huge john.

I would not be an effort if you put your mind to it. Project M was a MASSIVE effort, and still is one due to it not being hosted at APEX this year. Keeping Melee at EVO was a huge effort too. What is stopping us from something as small as this?

I kinda feel like we may actually be in the minority. I think many want to see customs legal in tournaments, but I think that people like you and I think that think it should be a necessary part of the scene, are far and few. I really do think that TOs and top players simply don't care and just want to host and play the game. I think about the how beneficial it could be for the future. This counts for stages too by the way. Let me explain in one hypothetical sentence:

Why would I want to watch a game where most of the best matches played only involve less than a quarter of the cast and stages.

Right now smash 4 is not boring because of how fresh the game is, but the more possibilities for matchups the better the future of the competitive scene. More options means more entertaining matches and a possibly higher skill ceiling; I like to think a high level match on Skyloft between a Shulk with a set with n1s3u1d3 and a Kirby with n3s1u3d1 would be really fun to watch. I know that viewer entertainment is not the most important priority, but seeing this game get stale would suck and should be something to worry about. I don't really think that Smash 4's current popular rulesets are terrible (especially since it is so early) but it could be so much better imo.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, I find it difficult to expression frustration while not seeking to grandstand, give undue criticism, or be a general negative nancy. There's just a sense of urgency, of Smash 4 being gimped out the gate on the competitive stage.

A truly good game will succeed no matter what, but it's still a shame.


And yeah, it's really, really distasteful to tell all the Ganondorf, Palutena, Ike, Charizard, WFT, and other certain players that "Oops, you don't get to be viable at the highest levels of play because your character happens to have the wrong specials as default. Play Diddy, nerds."

 

[19_]

Yeah, I find it difficult to expression frustration while not seeking to grandstand, give undue criticism, or be a general negative nancy. There's just a sense of urgency, of Smash 4 being gimped out the gate on the competitive stage.

A truly good game will succeed no matter what, but it's still a shame.


And yeah, it's really, really distasteful to tell all the Ganondorf, Palutena, Ike, Charizard, WFT, and other certain players that "Oops, you don't get to be viable at the highest levels of play because your character happens to have the wrong specials as default. Play Diddy, nerds."

I sucks that it had to start this way but as time goes on I actually think people may get more interested in customs as time goes on actually. There was a LOT of hype for them during the 3ds release and I do think people will still think about them.
Not to mention Nintendo would love it too since we would be showing off what is a great new feature; they may end up helping us out.

I really think in the long run people will get bored of the same thing over and over. I'm actually okay with the way things are right now because it really is just everyone getting into there comfort zone. Of coarse there playing it safe, better safe the sorry when money is on the line. Viewers are okay with that for now, but that most likely will change with time (unless DLC shenanigans). Right now Smash 4 is a big game that we are still digesting, but customs and other stages will be an appealing desert for when the time comes. And we will be waiting for them. They will come, you can count on it.

 

[LiteralGrill]

The ruleset is out.

I'll say this here and now, the exclusion of Skyloft from the legal stagelist is inexcusable. Not only does it have support from players by a large margin according to our polls which have had over 600 responses at this point, but has never been shown to have a single issue in tournament play. Especially with Delfino Plaza legal this one is baffling There is no excuse to not have the stage legal and I urge Apex staff to reconsider its legality and come out to the public to explain why it was not included.

From our same polls and tournament data, Pokemon Stadium 2 and Wuhu Island should also be legal, but I can understand why they may be excluded. Still, no Skyloft makes zero sense.

 

[Runic_SSB]

There is no excuse to not have the stage legal and I urge Apex staff to reconsider its legality and come out to the public to explain why it was not included.

Agreed. I also think that 2 stocks, banning custom moves, and using a medium/medium Mii are awful decisions. I really don't get why they can't just put the responsibility of having customs unlocked on the player, and require them to bring a 3DS with the moveset on it and upload it. You can choose which console to connect it to, solving the interference issue. It would also solve the Mii issue, and it wouldn't take any longer than putting in your name and changing your controller settings.

I was on the fence about attending Apex, seeing as how it would be my first major tournament, but now I've decided against it.

 

[19_]

The ruleset is out.

I'll say this here and now, the exclusion of Skyloft from the legal stagelist is inexcusable. Not only does it have support from players by a large margin according to our polls which have had over 600 responses at this point, but has never been shown to have a single issue in tournament play. Especially with Delfino Plaza legal this one is baffling There is no excuse to not have the stage legal and I urge Apex staff to reconsider its legality and come out to the public to explain why it was not included.

From our same polls and tournament data, Pokemon Stadium 2 and Wuhu Island should also be legal, but I can understand why they may be excluded. Still, no Skyloft makes zero sense.

Not surprising, no customs due to the lack of support from the community, but for an early stage list it looks alright.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I feel as though I need another post as well. Why are there only 3 starters? This is also an extremely confusing choice especially when Town and City as well as Lylat Cruise as excellent choices that also have massive player support as start stages (from our over 600 responded to polls and 1000s of debate responses). I see no reason to not include them to have a stagelist of five starters as every bit of ruleset creation logic for smash points to more starter stages being healthier for the game.

 

[19_]

I feel as though I need another post as well. Why are there only 3 starters? This is also an extremely confusing choice especially when Town and City as well as Lylat Cruise as excellent choices that also have massive player support as start stages (from our over 600 responded to polls and 1000s of debate responses). I see no reason to not include them to have a stagelist of five starters as every bit of ruleset creation logic for smash points to more starter stages being healthier for the game.

Game has been out less then 3 months. Is it ok to give them the benifit of the doubt? I know APEX is influential and all but it is not there fault TO's cannot make rulesets for themselves. When I start hosting tournaments I'm definitely going to run PS2, Skyloft, and Wuhu with customs anyway.

It sucks for right now for sure but it is still nice to see a stage like Kongo jungle 64 legal, but I do agree that it needs major work.

3 starters? wut?

 

[KVLTofMetal]

Aaaand 2 stocks instead of 3 for singles. I really hope this doesn't become the norm

 

[Overswarm]

What a worthless event.

 

[Kuraudo]

I'm okay with 2-stock. It's the fact that BRAWL kept 3-stock of all things for Singles & Doubles that has me miffed.

/prefers 3-stock

 

[Raziek]

The stagelist is less garbage than I expected, but missing Skyloft/Wuhu and only having 3 starters is gross.

Default Miis only restriction is complete nonsense.

2-stocks is garbage and is going against the preferences of most regions and the 2 prominent online ladders (Anther's and Nintendo Dojo).

Customs banned is purely lazy TO'ing.

But am I surprised? Of course not, it's Apex.

 

[Overswarm]

We've got wuhu as doubles only in MW now; it functioned as a pretty prominent "time out" stage here in singles. Good stuff for doubles though.

 

[Zean]

Wiiu getting 2-stocks while Brawl keeps 3-stocks must be one of the most ridiculous things I've seen this year.

 

[Xyro77]

If you do not like the rules, do not support Apex.

You can do your own thing (like I do) and still bring in 80+ players per event.

 

[Zork]

This is coming from someone that likes all Smash games.

You guys that want 3 stocks don't realize how much that would slow the tournament down, especially Apex which is already notorious for running extremely late. And now Project M has been replaced by a far slower game.

Smash 4 has a similar pacing to Brawl and Brawl was considered too slow and would often receive complaints from TOs. The overall game speed seems slightly faster but the stage boundaries are bigger and there's less gimp potential (especially with no ledge hogging).

So why is Brawl 3 stocks still? Because the community has played it that way for 6 years, you don't impose a new ruleset this late into a game's life.

Keep your emotions out of this and look at it objectively from a TO's perspective. For a tournament of this caliber 2 stocks is definitely the way to go unless they can get several more setups to play all the games than last year or add an extra day to Apex.

Edit:

I've watched two Smash 4 east coast "majors" and one of them finished around 1 AM and the other at around 3 AM. This was with two stocks.

Edit:

Another thing people need to consider is this tournament will be Smash 4's biggest showing by far. And first impressions mean a lot, I've lost track of how many false things people say about Brawl due to misinformation spread years ago. 3 stocks would make the game look extremely slow to the masses.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

The stagelist is less garbage than I expected, but missing Skyloft/Wuhu and only having 3 starters is gross.

Default Miis only restriction is complete nonsense.

2-stocks is garbage and is going against the preferences of most regions and the 2 prominent online ladders (Anther's and Nintendo Dojo).

Customs banned is purely lazy TO'ing.

But am I surprised? Of course not, it's Apex.

I'm really glad so see someone with some clout feels the same way I do. Smash 4 should not be played with 2 stocks, sd is just too punishing, and no, IT DOESN'T MAKE IT LESS FUN/ EXCITING!

 

[Daisy101]

Want to point out, Strike starter stages need more option. Take off Lylat is a good option since is a stage with a terrible edge and it be can understandable, no ones like random SD. However you could probably put Town And City and Duck hunt, Both stages dont have any big issue in general.

 

[Runic_SSB]

You guys that want 3 stocks don't realize how much that would slow the tournament down

Anyone that designs rulesets based on personal convenience should not be running a tournament. The point of a tournament is to see who's the best at the game, not to get it over with as quick as possible, and considering that this is literally the apex of competitive Smash Bros, they can afford to take their damn time. Besides, as you said, the tournament is most likely gonna run over either way. This ruleset won't stop that.

Brawl was considered too slow and would often receive complaints from TOs.

This is a pretty big exaggeration, but even so, they just needed to deal with it. If you are a TO, it is your responsibility to make sure that the tournament runs smoothly. If you have a game that takes more time than the others, you need to account for that and work around it. Granted, there are some rulesets that are next to impossible to accommodate (Round Robin, Swiss method, etc.) but three stocks was always more than doable.

 

[Overswarm]

This is coming from someone that likes all Smash games.

You guys that want 3 stocks don't realize how much that would slow the tournament down, especially Apex which is already notorious for running extremely late. And now Project M has been replaced by a far slower game.

Smash 4 has a similar pacing to Brawl and Brawl was considered too slow and would often receive complaints from TOs. The overall game speed seems slightly faster but the stage boundaries are bigger and there's less gimp potential (especially with no ledge hogging).

So why is Brawl 3 stocks still? Because the community has played it that way for 6 years, you don't impose a new ruleset this late into a game's life.

Keep your emotions out of this and look at it objectively from a TO's perspective. For a tournament of this caliber 2 stocks is definitely the way to go unless they can get several more setups to play all the games than last year or add an extra day to Apex.

Edit:

I've watched two Smash 4 east coast "majors" and one of them finished around 1 AM and the other at around 3 AM. This was with two stocks.

Edit:

Another thing people need to consider is this tournament will be Smash 4's biggest showing by far. And first impressions mean a lot, I've lost track of how many false things people say about Brawl due to misinformation spread years ago. 3 stocks would make the game look extremely slow to the masses.

Solution:

Stop running so many ****ing games. Drop Melee, Brawl, PM, Street Fighter, Marvel, Killer Instinct, or whatever other games you have running and run Smash 4. Don't want to drop one of the other games? Drop Smash 4 and just run that. Run one game.

 

[Unknownkid]

The ruleset is out.

I'll say this here and now, the exclusion of Skyloft from the legal stagelist is inexcusable. Not only does it have support from players by a large margin according to our polls which have had over 600 responses at this point, but has never been shown to have a single issue in tournament play. Especially with Delfino Plaza legal this one is baffling There is no excuse to not have the stage legal and I urge Apex staff to reconsider its legality and come out to the public to explain why it was not included.

From our same polls and tournament data, Pokemon Stadium 2 and Wuhu Island should also be legal, but I can understand why they may be excluded. Still, no Skyloft makes zero sense.

Oh speaking of Skyloft, what exactly hit the Kirby Player here at 00:12 http://www.twitch.tv/hsg_lordxav1er/b/596939880

 

[LiteralGrill]

Oh speaking of Skyloft, what exactly hit the Kirby Player here at 00:12 http://www.twitch.tv/hsg_lordxav1er/b/596939880

There are portions of the stage where there are small walls you can run into, with stage knowledge (and just by watching) you can know these are coming and avoid them.

 

[Unknownkid]

There are portions of the stage where there are small walls you can run into, with stage knowledge (and just by watching) you can know these are coming and avoid them.

I see. @Asdioh Do you agree with his/her answer?

 

[Runic_SSB]

Solution:

Stop running so many ****ing games. Drop Melee, Brawl, PM, Street Fighter, Marvel, Killer Instinct, or whatever other games you have running and run Smash 4. Don't want to drop one of the other games? Drop Smash 4 and just run that. Run one game.

Serious question; is this an important tournament for games other than Smash? Like, if they stop running Street Fighter, are top level Street Fighter players gonna get pissed?

 

[Kuraudo]

Serious question; is this an important tournament for games other than Smash? Like, if they stop running Street Fighter, are top level Street Fighter players gonna get pissed?

APEX is a preliminary kinda series for EVO if I recall right. APEX is a Smash event most of all, but it's also a gateway for both the traditional FGC and our Smash FGC to combine together. Pretty neat IMO.

IMO, I'd keep Melee/64/Smash 4 as the trio of Smash games. Games like Project M or Brawl can be side-evented or so.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

Solution:

Stop running so many ****ing games. Drop Melee, Brawl, PM, Street Fighter, Marvel, Killer Instinct, or whatever other games you have running and run Smash 4. Don't want to drop one of the other games? Drop Smash 4 and just run that. Run one game.

I don't really see how that would improve things. I mean, the idea of having a big diverse tournament is what makes apex so special. I'm fine with non smash games, and older smash games, I just don't like the community's general stance against sm4sh. Really they're all pretty great games, with brawl being the least good, and Project M not getting nearly enough attention. Although I acknowledge its a nintendo sponsored tourney, so they can't have PM, it just needs more support though, cuz it's really really good.

 

[19_]

Aaaand 2 stocks instead of 3 for singles. I really hope this doesn't become the norm

I actually expect the 2-3 stock thing to be a constant back and forth. I don't mind honestly I in fact think players are ok with whatever..

If you do not like the rules, do not support Apex.

You can do your own thing (like I do) and still bring in 80+ players per event.

I agree.

Unfortunatlly, this is not common knowledge.