Social Roy Social - R O Y B O Y Z

[Lady Kuki]

Soooo looks like ZeRo finally made a 1.1.4. buffs patch for Roy! It's about time! It's good to see that he isn't in the "ROY'S BEST SWORDSMAN AMG" boat anymore and made a rather objective analysis this time.

What do you guys think? Do you agree with him?

 

[Tahu Mata]

Soooo looks like ZeRo finally made a 1.1.4. buffs patch for Roy! It's about time! It's good to see that he isn't in the "ROY'S BEST SWORDSMAN AMG" boat anymore and made a rather objective analysis this time.

What do you guys think? Do you agree with him?

I overall do agree. He has potential, but the end lag of his moves really does hurt him. Roy's in a weird place honestly, but we might possibly see him more thanks to these buffs. I still stand that I think he's mid tier.

And fancy seeing you here!

 

[Lady Kuki]

I overall do agree. He has potential, but the end lag of his moves really does hurt him. Roy's in a weird place honestly, but we might possibly see him more thanks to these buffs. I still stand that I think he's mid tier.

And fancy seeing you here!

Maaan it hurts hearing about that kinda stuff. He could have been simply amazing if tweaked a bit more. It's a shame we don't have anymore patches. At this point we just have to develop him as much as we can. He's a decent character, but I can't see him any higher than mid due to a lot of his flaws.

Yeah I actually go on here every now and then; I'm more active in the General Smash 4 Boards/Cloud Boards though. The Roy boards are kinda dead, so I don't post here as frequently anymore :T

Btw the comment section hurts, but then again Roy's polarizing like that. It should be expected at this point.

 

[Tahu Mata]

Maaan it hurts hearing about that kinda stuff. He could have been simply amazing if tweaked a bit more. It's a shame we don't have anymore patches. At this point we just have to develop him as much as we can. He's a decent character, but I can't see him any higher than mid due to a lot of his flaws.

Yeah I actually go on here every now and then; I'm more active in the General Smash 4 Boards/Cloud Boards though. The Roy boards are kinda dead, so I don't post here as frequently anymore :T

Btw the comment section hurts, but then again Roy's polarizing like that. It should be expected at this point.

Yeah, it honestly kinda irks me. You see this character's strengths and how great he could be, but his flaws just hold him back. Marth got buff after buff, and while the landing lag reduction we got did help, we also needed something else. I still love using Roy though, and I'm never gonna drop him.

I mostly just come to talk here and be in private messaging with some friends. I wanna help as much as I can with Roy's meta.

Any comment section in a video involving Roy is cancer, to be honest. He's kinda always been one of the most polarised characters in the series. Either people love him, or they hate him, and I gotta deal with haters on a daily basis.

 

[Lady Kuki]

Yeah, it honestly kinda irks me. You see this character's strengths and how great he could be, but his flaws just hold him back. Marth got buff after buff, and while the landing lag reduction we got did help, we also needed something else. I still love using Roy though, and I'm never gonna drop him.

I mostly just come to talk here and be in private messaging with some friends. I wanna help as much as I can with Roy's meta.

Any comment section in a video involving Roy is cancer, to be honest. He's kind always been one of the most polarised characters in the series.

I think Marth got good buffs because Marth fans are more uhh... loyal to their character? Marth has been top tier for two games straight, and to see their favorite Hero King be mediocre is something that a not a lot of Marth fans like; they like Marth being top tier, so they're going to ask for as many Marth buffs as they can, no matter how small.

Roy fans: They were shocked that Roy had better mobility and frame data in Smash 4, and I think that's one of the main reasons why he got so little buffs. I think Roy being significantly better than his Melee counterpart was what hyped so many people up, and people didn't realize how faulty he was until the very last patch. I mean Roy is typically known for being mediocre in pretty much every game he's in, so to see that he may actually be high tier was a very exciting thought I could imagine. Since Roy fans were more "grateful" about Roy, Roy received less buffs as a result.

Pleeease we need more people to develop his meta. I just want him to finally break out of low tier; is that so bad?

Maaan and he didn't have to. Oh well. It is what it is. *shrug*

 

[Tahu Mata]

I think Marth got good buffs because Marth fans are more uhh... loyal to their character? Marth has been top tier for two games straight, and to see their favorite Hero King be mediocre is something that a not a lot of Marth fans like; they like Marth being top tier, so they're going to ask for as many Marth buffs as they can, no matter how small.

Roy fans: They were shocked that Roy had better mobility and frame data in Smash 4, and I think that's one of the main reasons why he got so little buffs. I think Roy being significantly better than his Melee counterpart was what hyped so many people up, and people didn't realize how faulty he was until the very last patch. I mean Roy is typically known for being mediocre in pretty much every game he's in, so to see that he may actually be high tier was a very exciting thought I could imagine. Since Roy fans were more "grateful" about Roy, Roy received less buffs as a result.

Pleeease we need more people to develop his meta. I just want him to finally break out of low tier; is that so bad?

Maaan and he didn't have to. Oh well. It is what it is. *shrug*

Roy's kinda always lived under Marth's shadow, to be honest. He was completely outclassed by him in Melee, only he got in Brawl, and when he returned in Smash 4, most that weren't Roy fans just kinda shrugged him off and kept playing their character.

 

[CrimsonRick117]

Roy's kinda always lived under Marth's shadow, to be honest. He was completely outclassed by him in Melee, only he got in Brawl, and when he returned in Smash 4, most that weren't Roy fans just kinda shrugged him off and kept playing their character.

Despite the fact that Roy is better looking.... that has no relevance to what you were saying, but I felt the need to share that...

 

[Tahu Mata]

Despite the fact that Roy is better looking.... that has no relevance to what you were saying, but I felt the need to share that...

I dunno where this came from, but I actually agree lol

 

[Lady Kuki]

Roy's kinda always lived under Marth's shadow, to be honest.

Yeaaah that goes without saying. I mean it is still possible that Marth may be better than Roy in this game, especially after the patch, but they're so close in viability now that I think picking between the two just boils down to who fits your playstyle more. It's almost like Pit and Dark Pit at this point except the Pits are not as extreme.

Top players may find it a lot less of a hassle to play a character who is safer on shield, so they may prefer Marth or even Lucina based on that principal. Roy's playstyle is kinda weird; he has a disjoint used for spacing, but the strongest part of his hitbox is near his body and that's not very safe on shield. It can be, but he has to space properly in order to not get punished. He also has a combo game, and plays like a rushdown character, but he lacks the immense speed, grab range, and kill set ups so top players who like punish characters won't play Roy either based on that principal. Roy's just a weird mixture between a spacing swordsman and a punish character and that mixture isn't comfortable to either sides who may like such playstyles. I think he needs to find a niche, and once he does find that said niche, people's view will change.

But hey! I don't know much about either character; especially Roy, since not many people use him so I could be completely wrong. =P

 

[Tahu Mata]

Yeaaah that goes without saying. I mean it is still possible that Marth may be better than Roy in this game, especially after the patch, but they're so close in viability now that I think picking between the two just boils down to who fits your playstyle more. It's almost like Pit and Dark Pit at this point except the Pits are not as extreme.

Top players may find it a lot less of a hassle to play a character who is safer on shield, so they may prefer Marth or even Lucina based on that principal. Roy's playstyle is kinda weird; he has a disjoint used for spacing, but the strongest part of his hitbox is near his body and that's not very safe on shield. It can be, but he has to space properly in order to not get punished. He also has a combo game, and plays like a rushdown character, but he lacks the immense speed, grab range, and kill set ups so top players who like punish characters won't play Roy either based on that principal. Roy's just a weird mixture between a spacing swordsman and a punish character and that mixture isn't comfortable to either sides who may like such playstyles. I think he needs to find a niche, and once he does find that said niche, people's view will change.

But hey! I don't know much about either character; especially Roy, since not many people use him so I could be completely wrong. =P

Yeah, I'm at least happy that the two are much closer tier wise compared to Melee.

 

[Croph]

The YouTube comment section is pretty ****ty in general lol. If people constantly whine and gloss over Roy (for whatever reason), his meta will never develop. This can also discourage the growth of character diversity too. Thing is, a lot of people will only change their opinions if they see results. And sadly Roy's one of those characters who needs more results (and noticeable players too).

It's important to accept your main's flaws however. But it's also important to take the tools that you've been given with AND PUSH IT TO THE LIMIT!!

Being somewhere around mid tier isn't that bad. Even if he's lower, Roy still has room to grow, which is a great thing to have. Yeah, it would be nice if they could give Roy more, but I'm just happy he isn't anything less. I really hope last patch wasn't the final one, mostly for the fact that glitches and oversights still exist, even game changing ones (why haven't they fixed them yet is beyond me lol). Balance patches maybe, but if that's the case then it's up to us to do our best with our boy.

 

[Lady Kuki]

Yeah, I'm at least happy that the two are much closer tier wise compared to Melee.

Oh yeah. That's better than nothing.

Speaking of "playstyles" that I think the reason Ace finds Roy "bad" is because he seems to prefer defensive characters. If I remember correctly, he DOES main Rosalina and Rosalina is a very defensive character. Judging by that, he probably will prefer Marth since Marth can space similarly to Rosalina; he may not be able to do it as well, but he can do it better than Roy. He also uses Villager if I'm not mistaken. He's also pretty defensive if I remember correctly. Almost all of Ace's characters have good recoveries too, and Marth has a pretty good recovery. Marth in general may just fit his playstyle more.

As a matter of fact, when watching his Roy Undefeatable vid, I remember him complaining about how weird Roy is to play. Roy probably just does not mesh with his playstyle well. I think instead of just calling him bad, he should just say that Roy isn't meant for him lol.

As for people who like punish characters, I don't know of many top players who use punish characters and HAVE used Roy at one point. However, I've seen a few Meta Knight mains on reddit complain about how poor Roy's punish game is, and Meta Knight is a character who does punishing very well. I think a lot of this just stems from Sakurai's weird design philosophy around Roy. I feel like Sakurai attempting to make Roy different from Marth was what harmed him in the long run. I don't really understand why he needed to make Roy a weird mixture between a spacing and punish character. Perhaps he simply did not understand what he needed to do in order to make Roy completely balanced.

 

[Jwave]

where can I punishing techniques in Project M with roy? lol am I in the right place?

 

[Tahu Mata]

Oh yeah. That's better than nothing.

Speaking of "playstyles" that I think the reason Ace finds Roy "bad" is because he seems to prefer defensive characters. If I remember correctly, he DOES main Rosalina and Rosalina is a very defensive character. Judging by that, he probably will prefer Marth since Marth can space similarly to Rosalina; he may not be able to do it as well, but he can do it better than Roy. He also uses Villager if I'm not mistaken. He's also pretty defensive if I remember correctly. Almost all of Ace's characters have good recoveries too, and Marth has a pretty good recovery. Marth in general may just fit his playstyle more.

As a matter of fact, when watching his Roy Undefeatable vid, I remember him complaining about how weird Roy is to play. Roy probably just does not mesh with his playstyle well. I think instead of just calling him bad, he should just say that Roy isn't meant for him lol.

As for people who like punish characters, I don't know of many top players who use punish characters and HAVE used Roy at one point. However, I've seen a few Meta Knight mains on reddit complain about how poor Roy's punish game is, and Meta Knight is a character who does punishing very well. I think a lot of this just stems from Sakurai's weird design philosophy around Roy. I feel like Sakurai attempting to make Roy different from Marth was what harmed him in the long run. I don't really understand why he needed to make Roy a weird mixture between a spacing and punish character. Perhaps he simply did not understand what he needed to do in order to make Roy completely balanced.

I don't really listen to Ace anymore when it comes to Roy. I like the guy, but he has a huge bias against him.

where can I punishing techniques in Project M with roy? lol am I in the right place?

Go to the Project M boards if you want to know about that kind of stuff.

 

[EnGarde]

Well, I finally won a set when I was in losers, but then I lost second set. I'm just happy that I'm less nervous. I'm slowly getting more comfortable, so who knows. Maybe next time I'll play a lot better.

I really struggle against Luigi (I need more practice though). At one point I kept getting grabbed and panicked since I didn't know what to do. But I learned that Dtilt really helped to stop his approaches (and saved my butt at one point when he was charging a Dsmash, but then I quickly threw out that move).

DI away and buffer uair, it's fast enough that it should combo break after the 2nd fair, though iirc that was pre-patch Luigi. @Pitzer was the one that originally told me about that, he'd know more than I do about it lol.

EDIT: just realized there was a whole page of new comments lol, that loaded after I posted this. rip me lol

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Hello, just a random player here making an overly long guide here.

What are some good/bad matchups in experience playing (Not based around fundamentals and crap, just from playing against them) in Smash 4? I'm making a section for good and bad matchups and I need data from players who use Roy more than I do.

And if someone could tell me some good stages for Roy as well, that'd be amazing.

 

[Tahu Mata]

Hello, just a random player here making an overly long guide here.

What are some good/bad matchups in experience playing (Not based around fundamentals and crap, just from playing against them) in Smash 4? I'm making a section for good and bad matchups and I need data from players who use Roy more than I do.

And if someone could tell me some good stages for Roy as well, that'd be amazing.

I feel like Roy does pretty well against the characters below him, while he doesn't do as well against the ones below him, but they're not unwinnable. I think he overall has a decent matchup spread.

I think stages with platforms like Dream Land and Battlefield are good for Roy. They can help give his combo game some more variety.

 

[Serew]

Yeah comment sections are usually bad, i agree buuuuut.

I wish people would stop caring about other people's opinions on Roy. I just see a negativity feedback loop, usually coming from Roys themselves. Or, I see them talking about the negative things other people say about Roy and then they get demotivated. While it sucks that we have no top players YET (emphasis lol) and people are negative, we shouldn't care too much about what random people say. This is the internet and people post whatever they want and it can usually be negative even though they have no idea what they're talking about. People are gonna bash Roy and that's how it will be for a while. And maybe forever? who knows? We just shouldn't care.

Them bashing on him doesn't suddenly make him weaker. Use this to motivate yourself to prove them wrong. People need to stop this cycle of reading bad comments and then hyperfocusing on the negativity to the point that it becomes demotivating. And it's us that has to stop, random people not in our community posting bad comments isn't something we can really do anything about. Our Roy community can at least put a stop to hyperfocusing on the negativity among ourselves, and have our social spaces be a more positive environment for learning Roy lol.

I'm not getting demotivated but it's a bit annoying to see people within the Roy community constantly talking about the negativity that others spread. I'm not mad at anyone but c'mon guys, can it stop already?

 

[Lady Kuki]

The YouTube comment section is pretty ****ty in general lol. If people constantly whine and gloss over Roy (for whatever reason), his meta will never develop. This can also discourage the growth of character diversity too. Thing is, a lot of people will only change their opinions if they see results. And sadly Roy's one of those characters who needs more results (and noticeable players too).

It's important to accept your main's flaws however. But it's also important to take the tools that you've been given with AND PUSH IT TO THE LIMIT!!

Being somewhere around mid tier isn't that bad. Even if he's lower, Roy still has room to grow, which is a great thing to have. Yeah, it would be nice if they could give Roy more, but I'm just happy he isn't anything less. I really hope last patch wasn't the final one, mostly for the fact that glitches and oversights still exist, even game changing ones (why haven't they fixed them yet is beyond me lol). Balance patches maybe, but if that's the case then it's up to us to do our best with our boy.

This is so true. People earlier were underrating characters like Greninja, Mewtwo and Toon Link. Now all of a sudden, everyone's calling them high mid, even high tier since they managed to have some kind of breakthrough. It's crazy how people's opinion of characters change with the drop of a hat. X character gets a decent placing in a kinda big tournament: "OMG X CHARACTER'S TOTALLY HIGH TIER NOW GUYS!" I think it's both a good thing and a bad thing; it's a good thing because we finally get to see what the character is capable of. It's a bad thing because it makes people become underwhelmed by characters who aren't placing as well. Such a mentality is what makes people hang on to the "results" argument. It's fair, but let's be honest here: Some characters have more loyal fans than others, so it's expected that some characters may get better results because of this.

And yeah. People complain about character diversity, then they would go on and talk about how crappy a certain character is. I mean, you're not going to get more character diversity if you keep shutting down a character's potential like that. When you criticize a character too many times, less and less people will be inclined to lab them.

Man I hope we're getting one last patch too, but it's never too late to start developing the guy. =P

I don't really listen to Ace anymore when it comes to Roy. I like the guy, but he has a huge bias against him.

Ehhh I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and just say that he may just like Marth's playstyle more, and may not know how to voice his opinion without being too condescending about it. Then again, I hardly read his posts soo....

 

[Zoramine Fae]

I feel like Roy does pretty well against the characters below him, while he doesn't do as well against the ones below him, but they're not unwinnable. I think he overall has a decent matchup spread.

I think stages with platforms like Dream Land and Battlefield are good for Roy. They can help give his combo game some more variety.

Any specific matchups that you hate/like, even if they are above? Specific ones to avoid and what ones are probably neutral, especially if you could define an archetype of character such as defensive zoner or offensive zonebreaker that specifically ruins Roy? This way people can relate it more towards people that play other characters such as, say, Duck Hunt, offensively despite the character still being a zoner (There was a semi-recent tournament that occurred with that happening) I can list down what to do in certain situations.

Sheik's getting its own section since EFF SHEIK.

Nice to know for Dreamland and Battlefield. Does SHFF Up Air cause a missed tech at certain percents if they land just above the platform, or can things like SHFF Up Air>Forward Air>Missed Tech>Tech Chase Dash Attack work?

Thanks for the info!

 

[Tahu Mata]

Any specific matchups that you hate/like, even if they are above? Specific ones to avoid and what ones are probably neutral, especially if you could define an archetype of character such as defensive zoner or offensive zonebreaker that specifically ruins Roy? This way people can relate it more towards people that play other characters such as, say, Duck Hunt, offensively despite the character still being a zoner (There was a semi-recent tournament that occurred with that happening) I can list down what to do in certain situations.

Sheik's getting its own section since EFF SHEIK.

Nice to know for Dreamland and Battlefield. Does SHFF Up Air cause a missed tech at certain percents if they land just above the platform, or can things like SHFF Up Air>Forward Air>Missed Tech>Tech Chase Dash Attack work?

Thanks for the info!

He can struggle a bit against characters that can zone him out, have more reach than him or are faster than him. Villager, Sheik and Sonic can be a bit tough, but they're not unwinnable.

I'm not exactly sure myself, but I'm sure others here know the answer.

No problem!

 

[Vipermoon]

Comment on the Roy looking better than Marth statement:

Marth in Smash has only had canon designs (except for his hair in Brawl). Canon Marth is WAY better looking than canon Roy.

Furthermore, Smash 4 Roy still doesn't look as good as Marth. Call me biased but I'm sure this is the general consensus.

Carry on.

 

[Lady Kuki]

Comment on the Roy looking better than Marth statement:

Marth in Smash has only had canon designs (except for his hair in Brawl). Cannon Marth is WAY better looking than canon Roy.

Furthermore, Smash 4 Roy still doesn't look as good as Marth. Call me biased but I'm sure this is the general consensus.

Carry on.

Roy's design, while kinda cool in Smash 4 went overboard a bit, IMO. I think while I prefer Roy (because he's a cute little red head), I think Marth's design is objectively better looking because it's a lot more simple. With character designs, less is more.

 

[EnGarde]

Comment on the Roy looking better than Marth statement:

Marth in Smash has only had canon designs (except for his hair in Brawl). Cannon Marth is WAY better looking than canon Roy.

Furthermore, Smash 4 Roy still doesn't look as good as Marth. Call me biased but I'm sure this is the general consensus.

Carry on.

Roy's design, while kinda cool in Smash 4 went overboard a bit, IMO. I think while I prefer Roy (because he's a cute little red head), I think Marth's design is objectively better looking because it's a lot more simple. With character designs, less is more.

I personally like Smash 4 Roy's design best lol, I like that they made him older than in Melee, feels like the character grew up while away. Guess we have one of every opinion, a complete set!

 

[Tahu Mata]

Roy's design, while kinda cool in Smash 4 went overboard a bit, IMO. I think while I prefer Roy (because he's a cute little red head), I think Marth's design is objectively better looking because it's a lot more simple. With character designs, less is more.

I think that's actually because his Smash 4 design was made by the creators of the Tales games.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Roy's new design is actually part of the reason why I play him; while simplistic characters usually look better than the overly designed ones, in a different viewpoint more designed ones can look better than overly simplistic characters. Like personally, Bayonetta might be a wee bit overboard, but that's just because that how she looks in her games, and I respect that.

Roy was given a very revamped design, and it's absolutely beautiful if not stunning. 'Our Boy' chants can go to the koopaling, this Roy is our MAN now, people!

That and he actually looks like he's preparing to go to war as the head of a small army, which, well is what he does in the main games.


As a side note, once I figure out how tf to make those things where you can dump information into where you click a little headerlike thing to pop it all out, whatever those are called, I'll be almost ready to put my guide out alongside a video to demonstrate his attacks for people who need refreshers. If my cough would stop.

 

[Vipermoon]

Just for the record, I never said I liked Smash 4 Roy's design more than previous (on the contrary) Only that Smash 4's is better looking on a handsome point of view. Marth ftw so whatever

 

[LordTakeo]

Yeah, down throw is not as good as it was before, but it's still an useful tool.

That of course. But as fast faller, at early percentages, we can be fine.

 

[Shaya]

Wow first time seeing an Admin on these boards that's gotta be a sign right?... Right?

Admins are dime a dozen.
I am the only senator you're going to ever see


---

Roy as a finished / roughly high tier or just one under in a nutshell:

1. Sword reach/hitboxes match Marths
2. Multiple flubs have 0.5% or so damage buffs; make them more relevant to be spaced for. Possible angle adjustments on some flubs.
3. Aerial Up-B final hit deals 1% more damage
4. End lag on up tilt reduced

Everything else would just be nice (endlag on smash attacks, damage on throws, auto cancel [on bair]), but would not be really impacting his game as much as the above.

Currently Roy is suffering IMO. His match ups with other swordies are just ughh when otherwise the entire archetype usually has good match ups with one another.
Cloud for example is a lot easier to handle as Marth/etc now, as some of the most relevant moves can out reach Cloud. Roy could kinda do that before with clutch bairs or fairs but obviously on tipper they're mostly not that rewarding (tipper fair is Roy's best flub hitbox though).

 

[Vipermoon]

Admins are dime a dozen.
I am the only senator you're going to ever see


---

Roy as a finished / roughly high tier or just one under in a nutshell:

1. Sword reach/hitboxes match Marths
2. Multiple flubs have 0.5% or so damage buffs; make them more relevant to be spaced for. Possible angle adjustments on some flubs.
3. Aerial Up-B final hit deals 1% more damage
4. End lag on up tilt reduced

Everything else would just be nice (endlag on smash attacks, damage on throws, auto cancel [on bair]), but would not be really impacting his game as much as the above.

Currently Roy is suffering IMO. His match ups with other swordies are just ughh when otherwise the entire archetype usually has good match ups with one another.
Cloud for example is a lot easier to handle as Marth/etc now, as some of the most relevant moves can out reach Cloud. Roy could kinda do that before with clutch bairs or fairs but obviously on tipper they're mostly not that rewarding (tipper fair is Roy's best flub hitbox though).

And what exactly is a Senator in Smashboards anyway?

Shaya, those changes won't do much for Roy. A slightly further tipper, a little more damage (plus damage isn't a Roy problem), aerial Uspecial still way weaker than even Corrin's (I just calculated), and better Utilt combos/safe(er) back hit won't change Roy's MUs. Don't fool yourself.

Your "possible angle adjustments on tipper" sounds interesting though and I'd love to hear your more specific thoughts?

I should do one of these for Roy like I did for Marth actually. That would be fun. I'm more pissed about Roy's design than I am about Marth's so it should be interesting.

 

[Locuan]

Wow first time seeing an Admin on these boards that's gotta be a sign right?... Right?

Admins are dime a dozen.
I am the only senator you're going to ever see

A sign of what? D:
Also I'm Shaya's apprentice regardless of title~

Messing around with Roy cause wanna get back in the groove of things:
https://gfycat.com/DeliriousOblongIndianhare

Jab locking cause bored.

Also something I want to test more since the CPU loves to DI in. Almost sure this won't work. If this is still able to hit with the sour RAR B-air after good DI (and not getting hit by a Mario N-air), seems like an interesting setup that depends on a bunch of variables:
https://gfycat.com/UnfortunateWholeCormorant

Interesting to note, I've been seeing a lot of Roy's use jab > f-air string at high percents. In the past week Shaya mentioned Roy's B-air and I decided to look into it a bit more.

Move | BKB | KBG
F-air | 50 | 80
B-air | 30/30/10 | 100

B-air's KBG is 20 units greater than F-air. Jab > RAR B-air string kills close to the ledge. Anyways, this stuff is probably well known but finding it out by messing around in training mode oneself kinda feels good.

Inb4 Shaya calls me out.

Also, super DI dependent (Roy D-throw > Up-B and whatever) but I was curious to see at what percents it would kill confirm on no DI against the characters it connects against so I made a spreadsheet and whatever~
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5tKi2YoUKe8DgCObEe6AE1WJ_O0KRN6MuL3367mAs/edit#gid=0

Anyways, feel free to correct me on any super mistakes I may have.

 

[Shaya]

And what exactly is a Senator in Smashboards anyway?

Shaya, those changes won't do much for Roy. A slightly further tipper, a little more damage (plus damage isn't a Roy problem), aerial Uspecial still way weaker than even Corrin's (I just calculated), and better Utilt combos/safe(er) back hit won't change Roy's MUs. Don't fool yourself.

Your "possible angle adjustments on tipper" sounds interesting though and I'd love to hear your more specific thoughts?

I should do one of these for Roy like I did for Marth actually. That would be fun. I'm more pissed about Roy's design than I am about Marth's so it should be interesting.

Well, I personally think Roy is an alright to pretty good character.
My issue with him is the way he has to commit.
And the way he gets shafted in match ups where that sword length spacing is vital.

I would like to see Roy being about the smart use of both tippers and blade hits, just like Marth should.
Roy's problem isn't inherently damage. But my thoughts are almost explicitly on making his spacing game more pronounced.
Shield stun patch changes took away that extra edge or 'option' on his tipper hits and it wasn't compensated. It hurts him a lot.
Roy's damage on his flubs is VERY low (y'know, Sheik damage low) and in some match ups that's all you're going to be able to aim for. Having them as essentially too low hit stun or awkward sending angles is a huge downer when they're not even [artificially] safer on shield like they used to be.
Minor damage adjustments to these will make them more relevant at every point of the game and emphasise the reward for his spacing game.

I vehemently reject that Roy having more range won't do anything. This is exactly his issue in match ups like Marth (playable before this patch and now probably close to his hardest match up), Rosa and DK, etc etc. [on top of those tippers giving little reward].
Corrin's has absolutely no moves which can lead into their up-b unless the opponent air dodges (or you get a stun). Roy being able to ff up air double jump up-b or similar and get something out of it (he currently doesn't, other than the almost guaranteed "Roy's our Boy" chants that will come from it [i'm not exaggerating, too much knockback in little time sets off the algorithm]) will significantly increase his capabilities and pressure in every way; he'll enter the off the top heroes that dominate the meta. The amount specifically required is up in the air (pun intended), but I know right now that it'll only ever be killing reasonably if Roy is at full rage and I don't think that's cool.
On the other side of it, if it was the same power as the grounded version, Roy would be absurdly bull **** [not necessarily at competitive level, but people would be crying about dying to fair up-b at 80% for sure].

And Up Tilt is just out of place in end lag, but I do think it's less important than the aforementioned three.

I'm not turning this character into a relevant high tier, I'm tuning already existing "things" into more relevancy.
Forward Air with less start up would likely have a more significant impact on everyone's opinion of Roy, but I don't mind 'restrictions' like these, the move is already amazing in most ways.
But if they decided to push fair's start up from 10 frames to 6, I think there would be little point in his neutral air, no relevancy in rar back air and would [imo] require things to settle before looking at anything else to give him. What I'm otherwise suggesting won't break the bank and if he still needed love afterwards something as big as forward air could be looked at (I should've mentioned this before as something which would be a huge boon to his abilities but shouldn't be done willynilly).

In terms of tippers of his that are good it's...
neutral air (will keep people in the air slightly above you with the ability for dash aerial follow ups for a long time), forward air (best and most usable, easy to string multiple of) and up air (dangerous to go for other than at an advantaged position at full hop height).
Down Tilt tipper is also great poke, gives you DB at early percent and a free dash in to a solid position later on.
Forward Smash tipper is a good amount of damage and usually puts them into a good position to capitalize on, really good as a stutter step or dash cancel punish.

But Marth's flubs for the most part are better and on top of that, at this stage, Marth's strong hits are generally more rewarding than Roy's as well.
Marth has received many a damage buff over time.

 

[Vipermoon]

Well, I personally think Roy is an alright to pretty good character.
My issue with him is the way he has to commit.
And the way he gets shafted in match ups where that sword length spacing is vital.

I would like to see Roy being about the smart use of both tippers and blade hits, just like Marth should.
Roy's problem isn't inherently damage. But my thoughts are almost explicitly on making his spacing game more pronounced.
Shield stun patch changes took away that extra edge or 'option' on his tipper hits and it wasn't compensated. It hurts him a lot.
Roy's damage on his flubs is VERY low (y'know, Sheik damage low) and in some match ups that's all you're going to be able to aim for. Having them as essentially too low hit stun or awkward sending angles is a huge downer when they're not even [artificially] safer on shield like they used to be.
Minor damage adjustments to these will make them more relevant at every point of the game and emphasise the reward for his spacing game.

I vehemently reject that Roy having more range won't do anything. This is exactly his issue in match ups like Marth (playable before this patch and now probably close to his hardest match up), Rosa and DK, etc etc. [on top of those tippers giving little reward].
Corrin's has absolutely no moves which can lead into their up-b unless the opponent air dodges (or you get a stun). Roy being able to ff up air double jump up-b or similar and get something out of it (he currently doesn't, other than the almost guaranteed "Roy's our Boy" chants that will come from it [i'm not exaggerating, too much knockback in little time sets off the algorithm]) will significantly increase his capabilities and pressure in every way; he'll enter the off the top heroes that dominate the meta. The amount specifically required is up in the air (pun intended), but I know right now that it'll only ever be killing reasonably if Roy is at full rage and I don't think that's cool.
On the other side of it, if it was the same power as the grounded version, Roy would be absurdly bull **** [not necessarily at competitive level, but people would be crying about dying to fair up-b at 80% for sure].

And Up Tilt is just out of place in end lag, but I do think it's less important than the aforementioned three.

I'm not turning this character into a relevant high tier, I'm tuning already existing "things" into more relevancy.
Forward Air with less start up would likely have a more significant impact on everyone's opinion of Roy, but I don't mind 'restrictions' like these, the move is already amazing in most ways.
But if they decided to push fair's start up from 10 frames to 6, I think there would be little point in his neutral air, no relevancy in rar back air and would [imo] require things to settle before looking at anything else to give him. What I'm otherwise suggesting won't break the bank and if he still needed love afterwards something as big as forward air could be looked at (I should've mentioned this before as something which would be a huge boon to his abilities but shouldn't be done willynilly).

In terms of tippers of his that are good it's...
neutral air (will keep people in the air slightly above you with the ability for dash aerial follow ups for a long time), forward air (best and most usable, easy to string multiple of) and up air (dangerous to go for other than at an advantaged position at full hop height).
Down Tilt tipper is also great poke, gives you DB at early percent and a free dash in to a solid position later on.
Forward Smash tipper is a good amount of damage and usually puts them into a good position to capitalize on, really good as a stutter step or dash cancel punish.

But Marth's flubs for the most part are better and on top of that, at this stage, Marth's strong hits are generally more rewarding than Roy's as well.
Marth has received many a damage buff over time.

Didn't have time to reply to this before.

I don't know about Roy. He has the potential to be really bad. I guess it's that it seems like no one knows what to do with him and no one truly good mains him. He was definitely better than Marth last patch though.

I get what you're saying but the problem with this is the sweetspots are so easy to get for all levels of players that they can't justify raising sourspot damage. This is why Marth's sourspots are more useful and closer in damage/knockback to his tipper. It is (well, was) pretty hard to get.

Futhermore, Roy's inner hitboxes are so solid that useless tippers was the only way they knew how to balance that when Marth's inner hitboxes are such ****. (and it shows... Roy gets both hits of Nair above and below his hilt, arms, and head way better than Marth can) See? This is the probably the biggest issue. It's always "but Marth this, but Marth that" and that just sucks for Roy.

Yeah Fair can't be like that. It's not that slow and a start-up reduction would be like giving Marth his Brawl Fair autocancel or 33 frame duration. I'm glad you see that making that frame 6 is problematic to his other aerials. But seriously this move is amazing (13 frames of LL for a forwad facing aerial on a mobile character with a low short hop) so I hope nobody is complaining about the medium start-up.

I totally agree that Roy needs to kill with Uspecial. It already has the diagonal angle. 1% more damage won't do it alone (just 10 more knockback at 100%). I think that combined with grounded's KBG growth (130 vs 120) is justified.

Tipper Fsmash on your good tipper list lol? Like I read what you said but I mean... I guess relative to his other tippers you could say it's above average.

Separate thing: Roy's Uair is really bad because they wanted to show us how Melee's aerials were like (basically take Roy's Uair and apply that treatment to the rest of them). So what if it had 9 frames of landing lag (identical to the Melee L cancel Uair) as a little consolation prize. That would be pretty tasty.

 

[Shaya]

Futhermore, Roy's inner hitboxes are so solid that useless tippers was the only way they knew how to balance that when Marth's inner hitboxes are such ****.
It's always "but Marth this, but Marth that" and that just sucks for Roy.

Hmm, somehow the text I had here disappeared and I probably have not an easy way to bring it back.
Ughhhhhh
Something something the point probably exists below still in some way but here's how I remember it roughly:
The way they're designed is pretty consistent with Roy's tippers being 'worse' than the more neutralized Marth sours and while they've done a much better job than melee you can still have one 'weaker' than the other in a prominent way but make them usable parts of his kit. There's no real other way to achieve a complete and wholesome character without overpowering aspects of his kit if they leave tippers as mostly underwhelming.
A bad comparison would be Cloud with limit vs default, but I can't remember how I worded this exactly #_#

But the important part was,
I love both characters and they're eternally destined to be entwined together. I'm very glad both exist in this game together without invalidation from one or the other.

Tipper Fsmash on your good tipper list lol? Like I read what you said but I mean... I guess relative to his other tippers you could say it's above average.

Separate thing: Roy's Uair is really bad because they wanted to show us how Melee's aerials were like (basically take Roy's Uair and apply that treatment to the rest of them). So what if it had 9 frames of landing lag (identical to the Melee L cancel Uair) as a little consolation prize. That would be pretty tasty.

I've hit with it enough times, while at first thinking "**** MY LIFE" to appreciate it. It's range is really quite large so it can often be sniping you a much better punish than dash attacking/dbing would (it's still 12 damage). To me it has merit . For example early percent fair to forward smash may only sweetspot if the player DIs badly, but otherwise it's still a 25ish% combo.

Up Air sometimes feels really good though. And it does chain into itself a lot at the full hop heights (sweet spot). And it's a good dthrow follow up.

You can look at the damage values yourselves and see the ratios between them in damage are pretty inconsistent, especially after buffs.
Example: Roy shared the same flub damage on forward air as Marth, while dealing 1% more on the sweetspot. Now Marth deals 1% more on the sour spot and 0.5% more on the sweet spot.
They had the same damage back air but now Marth's sweetspot is 0.5% more.

They don't seem to mind making marth's sweetspots more rewarding than Roy's (which in various ways is logically correct position due to 'well spaced' being harder), but then why isn't the same logic applied to Roy's 'harder to space' versions? I doubt they wanted a repeat of Melee.

 

[Vipermoon]

I've had that happen to me too many times for many dumb reasons.

The damage inconsistency is real and I can tolerate some but not this level. Marth's current moveset is super inconsistent with itself everywhere let alone comparing his stuff to Roy.

There's no real other way to achieve a complete and wholesome character without overpowering aspects of his kit if they leave tippers as mostly underwhelming.

This.

 

[The Merc]

We talking about Roy tips?

Well, since there is too much and I'm too lazy to read, I'll just give my thoughts

I personally don't mind Roy's Tips. While it is definitely better to aim for his sweet spots (even his sour-sweet spot), I have found a few uses for his tippers that work.

Some situations are gimping, setting up some combos etc.

Though personally, I feel like sometimes I feel Roy's tips don't quiet fit animation (e.g. the start of Roy's Utilt) I also wish that more of Roy's Tips would jab lock, given them even more uses. Though I will agree with some people that some of Roy's damage outputs just don't feel just right, particular if he is suppose to be a 'Stronger' Marth (e.g. why does Uair sweetspot only do 9%? That feels way too low)

Though honestly, if they just improve the speed of some of Roy's moves, then I can forgive Sakurai for all this.

But that's just me 2 cents

 

[CrimsonRick117]

A sign of what? D:
Also I'm Shaya's apprentice regardless of title~

Admins are dime a dozen.
I am the only senator you're going to ever see

OMG they're multiplying!, this truly is a sign.

 

[Croph]

And yeah. People complain about character diversity, then they would go on and talk about how crappy a certain character is. I mean, you're not going to get more character diversity if you keep shutting down a character's potential like that. When you criticize a character too many times, less and less people will be inclined to lab them.

You don't know how much this irks me. I don't have any problems when people make an honest statement about a character, like listing flaws or whatever. But there's a difference when a person has a harsh tone, saying stuff like, "X character is garbage why are you playing him? Go play Y instead, he's better!" verses making a suggestion that's more along the lines of genuine advice (for lack of better term). I just hope the people who say discouraging stuff and bash characters like that aren't the same ones who complain about the "lack of character diversity", because, like you said, putting down a character over and over again can discourage people to lab such character.

And I'm going to be honest, while the Smash community is amazing in many ways, there's always rotten apples out there that spoil things. People treat you differently based on your preferences. You prefer 3 stock? You like custom moves? You use an uncommon controller type like Wiimote or 3DS? Lol, imma look down on you!!1! (and yes, I've heard stories where people treated someone differently just because the person used a 3DS as a controller.) People **** one others for playing campy/boring, using a low tier character, a top tier character, or a more controversial character like Miis.

I love when I see players have passion for their mains and succeed. And I don't care how you get there. Whether that be using a Wiimote or maining Mii Swordfighter, what have you. Just go out there and be the best player you can be. Start believing in yourself and prove your worth. So, for all my young lions out there, raise your SoS up high and engulf it with flames from your burning spirit. I know that each and every one of you has an ETERNAAAL FLAAAAAAME!! deep down that burns brighter than any star. So don't be afraid to fly across the golden skies of tomorrow, setting trails of shimmering flames along your way.

tl;dr MOTIVATIONAL VIDEO LET'S GO

Probably gonna enter Get On My Level, which is a big national up here. Totally not ready, but you only live once as the saying goes~

I'm not getting demotivated but it's a bit annoying to see people within the Roy community constantly talking about the negativity that others spread. I'm not mad at anyone but c'mon guys, can it stop already?

I have no problems if people want to talk about Roy's flaws and such. But I do agree that things might have gotten a bit too negative before (with talking about how others criticize and spread negativity about Roy and such), so I tried to offer some motivation. :3 Although I may have been really cheesy... yeah I'm not the best motivator lol.

Comment on the Roy looking better than Marth statement:

Marth in Smash has only had canon designs (except for his hair in Brawl). Canon Marth is WAY better looking than canon Roy.

Furthermore, Smash 4 Roy still doesn't look as good as Marth. Call me biased but I'm sure this is the general consensus.

Carry on.

Let's be honest here, while Marth and Roy both have great designs, they do not compare to this man's stunning aesthetics:

Spoiler: Best FE design

Why isn't Oliver in Smash yet smh I'm gonna boycott Smash and not buy any DLC until Oliver is announced

 

[Serew]

I have no problems if people want to talk about Roy's flaws and such. But I do agree that things might have gotten a bit too negative before (with talking about how others criticize and spread negativity about Roy and such), so I tried to offer some motivation. :3 Although I may have been really cheesy... yeah I'm not the best motivator lol.

Haha no i don't mind people talking about his flaws either, it's just the same cycle of too much negativity over and over again.
all we need is uhm... ... ... ...

Spoiler: A special s-support

"Yu luv mi? i luv mi too!"
Accept Roui as your lord and savior. Give him your love. And he will promise you eternal happiness... for himself

 

[Tahu Mata]

Haha no i don't mind people talking about his flaws either, it's just the same cycle of too much negativity over and over again.
all we need is uhm... ... ... ...

Spoiler: A special s-support

"Yu luv mi? i luv mi too!"
Accept Roui as your lord and savior. Give him your love. And he will promise you eternal happiness... for himself

roui best waifu