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Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

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8-peacock-8

8-peacock-8

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Sakurai of all people should know how unique characters from Kid icarus would be. Hell, i think he'd probably see more in Medusa or even Phosphora then Palutena. But then again he's extremely unpredictable. As per the norm.
 
majora_787

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8-peacock-8 said:
Sakurai of all people should know how unique characters from Kid icarus would be. Hell, i think he'd probably see more in Medusa or even Phosphora then Palutena. But then again he's extremely unpredictable. As per the norm.
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Yeah, I dunno what Sakurai's actually going to do. But I'm placing my faith in his interest in unique moveset potential and unfilled niches. I could definitely be wrong though, since Sakurai does Sakurai's will at the end of the day.
 
Fire Emblemier

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8-peacock-8 said:
Rosalina was once considered debatable in the same way. Just throwing that out there....
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I'm actually a Rosalina Supporter, I wasn't saying Medusa didn't have a chance, just that Palutena has an equal chance. but I was trying to show that Palutena I was just pointing out, that Majora was being biased with the response in that one part.

Unlike Medusa, I feel Rosalina although being recent has enough justifiable reason being included. Since her debut, she has been a very mainstream character to the Mario series, appearing in every mariokart game since her debut, being a really popular character that allowed her to flourish in the series. With all the recent cameos and roles in the game, I knew Rosalina was going to be in the game. Medusa never really had any of this,as the only thing close is appearing as a semi-important character in uprising, unlike Rosalina's many roles in her series.
 
BluePikmin11

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I thought Rosalina had somewhat of a chance. The Galaxy games are pretty big, and her being playable in many games recently might've had me tip up her chances a bit. Wasn't pretty optimistic about it though.
 
majora_787

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FireEmblemnier said:
I'm actually a Rosalina Supporter, I was just pointing out, that Majora was being biased with the response in that one part.
Unlike Medusa, I feel Rosalina although being recent has enough justifiable reason being included. Since her debut, she has been a very mainstream character to the Mario series, appearing in every mariokart game since her debut, being a really popular character that allowed her to flourish in the series. With all the recent cameos and roles in the game, I knew Rosalina was going to be in the game. Medusa never really had any of this,as the only thing close is appearing as a semi-important character in uprising, unlike Rosalina's many roles in her series.
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Once again, we're pretending the first game in the series never happened?

And it is not bias to say Ganondorf is not a casting character. Zelda and Rosalina are. Ganondorf is LITERALLY as much of a melee characters as Bowser or Captain Falcon, and just has darkness effects. The most magical thing he does is pull opponents near him with his exposed crotch on his forward tilt. That's not bias, that is knowing how a caster character works.

And it's not even much bias, despite being some to some point, to say that Medusa has more potential. Zelda has areas of her niche that are covered by other characters. Medusa doesn't have as much covered, and more of what she is capable of is "new" to Smash Bros. And wacky projectiles, snares, stuns, and binds are all highly fitting for her character, her role as the Goddess of Darkness, and just considering her boss fight in Uprising. I wouldn't be familiar with her Kid Icarus boss fight, but if I remember right that involved jumping snakes and a wall face.
 
8-peacock-8

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FireEmblemnier said:
I'm actually a Rosalina Supporter, I was just pointing out, that Majora was being biased with the response in that one part.
Unlike Medusa, I feel Rosalina although being recent has enough justifiable reason being included. Since her debut, she has been a very mainstream character to the Mario series, appearing in every mariokart game since her debut, being a really popular character that allowed her to flourish in the series. With all the recent cameos and roles in the game, I knew Rosalina was going to be in the game. Medusa never really had any of this,as the only thing close is appearing as a semi-important character in uprising, unlike Rosalina's many roles in her series.
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Really doesn't change what i said. Most people never really expected her in the new game. Even with her multiple appearances.
 
Sid-cada

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I still maintain that Medusa is a better option than Palutena because of her feel as a character, her role in the Kid Icarus series, and her ability to be unique compared to the rest of the roster.
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Man, I wish I could reply properly.

I will say that typically, I alternate between Medusa and Hades as the main villain completion. While I do think Hades is more likely, I'd say I would be happier with Medusa's inclusion.

That said, Medusa is... just plain and uninteresting. Medusa appeared in all of three chapters, dies, comes back, and then dies again. In all of those chapters, Medusa was pushed to the side, not getting much dialogue in. With what little dialogue she has, she lacks anything distinctive or memorable. To be honest, I remember the Space Pirate Captain's sole "line" of dialogue more than anything Medusa had ever said!

Medusa ended up being overshadowed by almost everybody, with the only exections being Arlon, Dyntos, and maybe Gaol, and bit part characters. Everyone else had at least one thing very memorable about them. A large, boastful personality filled with the flames of justice. The inability for the three of them to agree on anything. Anoyingly never seeming to just shut up already. The belief that she is simply more awesome than you. Pyrrhon, the three Hewdraw Heads, Thanatos, and Phosphora all manage to at least have interesting interactions with everyone they talk with.

This is especially true with Hades practically doing what he said: make Medusa look like "a sweet, cuddly bunny." Once Medusa's gone, Hades takes over, Viridi gets introduced, and they both take place as main charaters alongside Pit and Palutena. Both Hades and Viridi manage to be much more active outside their own chapters, only missing in about 3 chapters each. Meanwhile, Medusa lays all but forgotten until a last minute Deus Ex Machina.

To be honest, I wonder if Sakurai cares at all about Medusa. Both Thanatos and Pandora come back for a latter chapter. The Hewdraw Heads had a lot of work put into their chapter, what with the many different dialogue branches based on what order you kill the heads. Of the classic characters, only Twinbellows is worse off. Hades and Viridi have a hidden dialog part dedicated to them when you beat the game, which Medusa lacks. Really, she just feels like she was mostly discarded after she was killed, and was mostly set aside for everyone else.

Yes, she was a classic character from the original game. She certainly seems to be more interesting than Hades, move set wise (Palutena, however, needs to be argued). But does she really have anything else going for her?
 
majora_787

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Being part of Kid Icarus' series legacy and unique moveset potential over Medusa are basically all she has going for her. I personally don't think popularity and recent appearances count for as much, in the case of Palutena and Hades. To a point I feel like being a part of the series and not just a game, as well as having potential to be something that most of the roster isn't goes a pretty decent distance.
 
LordJackal

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Okay, but Ganondorf does terrible things to people. You're not really supposed to like him either. I get that Tingle is strange, I'm just trying to grasp where this hatred as a character comes from and whether it's actually as widespread as we say it is.
 
JamesDNaux

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LordJackal said:
Just out of curiosity, who here actually hates Tingle, and why?
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I find the only dis-likable thing about him is that he charges you for his services, but how else would one make a profit? He has to put food on the table too.
I actually think he's a very quirky and interesting character, other than the fact that he's a grown man dressing like a forest fairy child. In regards to Zelda characters in Smash Bros, I believe it's obvious who I support, lest I start taking the Diddy Kong route. It would actually be really nice if there were more activity in my thread...
 
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BigAxle said:
Wind Waker was my first Zelda Game. First time I saw Tingle was Tingle Island.
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I knew him from Majora's Mask first...there definitely is a pretty large difference between his functions in both games. I guess Wind Waker is just more well known.

The reason I'm asking is that we've got this character who is in an incredibly unique position (the only Zelda spin-off character) who has potential for a completely unique moveset and is one of few recurring characters in the series, and he always gets written off 'because the fans hate him' which is odd to me because there are also people who love Tingle. He's also wildly popular in Japan...I guess I'm just wondering if we should be taking him into more consideration, because thinking he doesn't have a chance solely because we think he's too weird for the American taste is pretty self-absorbed.
 
majora_787

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The thing is, Ganondorf is an antagonist and Tingle isn't. Ganondorf is kind of obligated to be some degree of bad from the perspective of the protagonist. Tingle is just strange, kind of creepy, and wants all of your money.
 
N3ON

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majora_787 said:
So we are exclusively crediting character recency to series top sellers now? I am pretty sure that's not how it works. The series is the series, even if not all of it came out as well as some specific games in it. We are getting Metroid represented based off Other M because it is new, not because it is the most successful Metroid game. If we wanted to base Metroid off of the most successful game, we'd have to base it all off of Prime.

Recency, top selling games, and popularity aren't going to make or break anything for anyone. What this has come down to is this: Between the two biggest remaining names, who does Sakurai think will fit better in Super Smash Bros.? Palutena, who is more popular and was in the US exclusive Kid Icarus game where Medusa was not, and played an important role in Uprising for a longer period of time than Medusa despite ALSO getting swapped out in favor of another character, or Medusa. A less popular but more unique and option-filled character who is the series antagonist while ranking below new one-game wonder Hades who while not being the main antagonist was the primary antagonist of the first arc of the game, AND also still showed up to participate in the end of the game?

It's not some "Palutena is literally the only option with any merits whatsoever and nobody else has any chance in hell" thing. It is a close situation that will literally come down to what Sakurai feels is more important. More games fans and screentime, or more unique capabilities. And the way Sakurai has been handling characters in SSB4 so far, I believe personally that unique capabilities count for a very good amount.
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...when did I say anything about sales? And why are you playing the recency card against Uprising? Uprising is both the most successful and the most recent KI... it's also the one Sakurai worked on, the one with an actual fair amount of content to draw from, the only one without content yet in Smash, the one that expanded the supporting characters, the one that caused popularity in other KI characters, including Medusa... not to mention drawing from retro games is only going to get you so far, it's really not a stretch to think Sakurai will be focusing on Uprising above the other two for SSB4.

And people seem to be more than eager to say that Palutena isn't the overwhelmingly most likely KI candidate, but I don't quite hear why Medusa is actual competition. Because she was also in Uprising? Yeah, and she played a minimal role compared to Palutena. Because she was the main antagonist in the first game? Yeah, but Palutena also played a role in the first game, and then in each subsequent game, with her role only expanding while Medusa's shrinks, or isn't even there. Because she has potential and "unique capabilities"? Sure. So does Palutena. So does Hades. So does Magnus. So does Dark Pit. So does Viridi. So does Phosphora. They could all bring something new to the Smash table as far as potential goes. The "unique capability" argument can be used to justify lots of characters; Rosalina got in, apparently that means "unique capabilities" takes top priority in who gets in. But Rosalina wouldn't have gotten in if Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser weren't already included, they're the more important characters. We wouldn't get K. Rool before Diddy. We didn't get Ganondorf before Zelda. And although Medusa is indeed important to KI, probably the third-most, Palutena is more important than her. If to nobody else but Sakurai. And to say Sakurai doesn't find Palutena to be the secondary character of KI is a bit... flawed. She's the only KI character Sakurai gave attention to before he worked on the series (other than Pit), she was given several times more spotlight than any character who wasn't Pit, and when she was "swapped out" the plot shifted to still focus on saving her. And while not the be-all-and-end-all, granted, her popularity is quite strong in all regions, as opposed to Medusa's.

No, Palutena is not literally the only option, no, it's not impossible we get a character other than her, but... it's not like Kid Icarus is some hugely deserving series in the first place. It doesn't have the size, the fanbase, or the already established central characters like Mario does, who can then take from characters due to "unique capabilities", such as Rosalina once the core is covered. Getting a fifth Mario character after the four big ones are already included isn't the same as including a second character other than the deuteragonist in a much smaller series, especially when that deuteragonist has just as much potential, and more popularity.
 
LordJackal

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I would go with Tingle, honestly. Tom Nook and Villager can do most of the same things with a moveset, and Anna isn't nearly as large a character as Tingle is; sure she's had more games, but she's not nearly as large a figure in gaming culture.
 
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